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Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

Mit

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After mostly quitting Brawl due to vBrawl becoming the norm in my scene once again (bleh) and jumping onboard the MvC3 hype train (loving it, and traditional fighting games in general), I've finally stopped by to see what's going on.

I did not expect a v3 :O I thought you guys would have given up after v2. Is there any info on the release candidate? I browsed through the past few pages and didn't find anything, and didn't find anything on the website either. Just a link to download the release candidate... Any expected release window or a small list of intended changes?
 

King Luigi 128

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Is there any info on the release candidate?
I browsed through the past few pages and didn't find anything, and didn't find anything on the website either.
Just a link to download the release candidate...
Any expected release window or a small list of intended changes?
This should answer (most of) your questions. ;)
 

Mit

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This should answer (most of) your questions. ;)
Thanks :) was gonna say it should be edited into the first post, but it already has been.

Was nice running into you at SRK as well, AA :D

My little scene actually just rediscovered BBrawl again the other day (the majority of us liked it, but the dude who's Wii we use just likes vBrawl and likes to play competitively at tourneys and whatnot). Forgot how fun it is being able to use a lot of the, IMO, most fun to play characters in the game. Also, those stage changes for BBrawl 3 sound exciting. I'll have to, at the least, nab those and put them into our BBrawl 2 set.
 

Mit

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...why not update to BBrawl 3?
I have a fairly huge and annoying custom code file with a bunch of extra stages and extra little codes here and there, and don't have the time lately to tinker around with code files too much.

Throwing a few stage files into the stage folder isn't hard though.
 

ぱみゅ

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I'm pretty sure that's because nobody gave true feedback on the RC... i can't since I haven't played anyone in a while....
 

Jack Kieser

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There's a group I just got introduced to at UW that meets on weekends to do various gaming stuff (card / board / video); we broke out Brawl this weekend, so I'm going to try to bring BBrawl next time and show the light; I'll make sure to get impressions and post them for you guys. It won't be high-level play or anything, but you'll get a general feel from the proletariat. :p
 

JRC LSS

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Are you guys aware of the glitch where Snake cyphers up to the stage and then is released from his cypher right as his feet land on the ground? If this happens, he can't second jump or cypher unless he jumps up and lands on the ground again. This might happen to sonic as well. It's not a major thing, but I just thought I'd bring it up.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying balance brawl and I like the changes you made with bbrawl 3. I'm now semi-decent with ICs (well at least not terrible like I was with the normal ICs).
 

Supreme Dirt

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A friend and I just properly played this yesterday.

Falcon Punch is so incredibly powerful a ledgeguard. Most characters have NOTHING they can do to beat the heavy armour, and if they have a poor recover it's lose-lose, either they airdodge and then can't recover, or they get hit and die. It's pretty cool.

Ganondorf is pretty hard to play still, but Wiztrain is pretty epic at getting around, and helps A LOT with projectile pressure. Having an approach against Falco is nice.
 

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Well, I tried BB3RC a little against CPUs.
It was amazing that PTAD didn't killed me until about 80% (I don't remember which char I was using at that moment).
Tamers on FlazZone2 being weaker is kinda meh, sice I had just learned to tech them (lol) and stage is still a gigantic walkoff...
Pirate Ship was improved a lot in V2 thanks to the new water behavior. Now, rewards for hitting people into bombs is surely great, but does not breaks the game like it did before (crazy damage and potentially kill at low %s). Is pretty much like Halberd's cannon now.

And that's pretty much the feedback I can provide ATM, I was unable to test Jiggs nor ICs, and jab mechanics seemed nice since before I did even tested them. =P
I hope I can see this version released anytime soon.
 
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Just out of curiosity are you guys going to also attempt to balance out the smash ball? Like tweak knock back taken from them duration times. I was just interested to see if this aspect of the game was ever going to get touched upon for balance brawl.
 

Lucina Clash

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Just out of curiosity are you guys going to also attempt to balance out the smash ball? Like tweak knock back taken from them duration times. I was just interested to see if this aspect of the game was ever going to get touched upon for balance brawl.
Doubt that. This game was made for usage pretty much only using the regular rules.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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We've talked about that before; it's not really something possible to balance in a good design way. There's just no way, fundamentally, that a Landmaster is ever going to be fair, among other things. In practice Smash Balls are insta-kills for some characters in ways that could never be nerfed and not insta-kills for others. Making them insta-kills for everyone for balance doesn't exactly make it an interesting mechanic either so our decision in that regard was pretty easy.
 
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well wouldn't it rather be possible to say for e.g. lower the time sonic can spend in his final smash. or the amount of knockback he give when colliding with opponents. Or could you nerf the killing power of the land masters blasts? I'm sure there's ways you guys could do something about it. I mean your able to rework attacks hitboxes and how the moves trajectories are and more are. If you guys could ever find a way to patch the final smash moves it could make Balanced brawl stand out far more than it already does.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'll repeat that it's really not a good design direction. Okay we could tweak parameters on them, but just imagine tring to make them really balanced. Perhaps I should go about this in a different way. Final smashes can be broken into three rough catagories.

Transformation (Bowser, Diddy, Yoshi, Wario, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic): Character becomes something broken and the opponent(s) have no choice but to run from it. In practice this usually means a guaranteed stock loss (Falco has the best FS because he can very plausibly take two stocks!) though some of the worst transformations (G&W, Diddy) are more frequently survivable.

Big hit (Mario, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon, Pokemon Trainer, Marth, Ike): These tend to kill if they hit except at very low percentages and are usually pretty easy to land though how easy varies wildly. Zelda & Sheik have the best one of these (Kirby's is close) and Pokemon Trainer's is clearly the worst one like this since it's super easy to SDI out and not die and I dunno why his is so bad compared to the others. Either way, having a big hit final smash is basically just plain worse than a transformation since it's "you get an instant kill if you do it right" instead of just "you get an instant kill" but still not bad.

Gimmick (Luigi, Peach, Donkey Kong, Pit, King Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, Snake): These are pretty universally worse than the other two types. A few like DDD's and Olimar's still represent good damage, a few like DK's are just really situational which is ill-fitting a final smash to say the least, and a handful are actually bad moves just as moves not even as final smashes (Ness, Lucas, Snake should never hit in singles with their final smashes and will be punished for trying).

So not only are these three catagories pretty ridiculous to try to balance since just fundamentally they're of different value, but the gameplay isn't even that good. If you get a smash ball as a transformer, just move close to the enemy, transform, and then go to town. It's almost a sure thing you take a stock, and as Falco if you do things right you have a real shot at taking two stocks (Falco's final smash is the best Landmaster and therefore the best final smash in the game). We could make the going to town part less deadly, but the basic gameplay of "I'm chasing you with impending doom while you run away waiting for the timer to run out" isn't very compelling. Due to how they are programmed, substnatial nerfs to Warioman and Giga Bowser would be at least as much work as designing an entire character each. The big hits are just basically fishing for a single hit that offers a ridiculous reward. It's certainly more interesting than the transformations, but the whole value metric of these moves is similarity to instant kills. Weakening them substantially would maybe be a workable metric if every final smash were in this archetype, but that's not the case. Then the gimmicks are mostly just a lost cause, especially some of the most poorly built ones like Snake's or Peach's that are just fundamentally bad ideas outside of FFA. Most of the gimmicks aren't exactly fun or interesting either...

I know it's a shame that final smashes look so cool and were obviously such a big thing in development yet aren't used, but they really aren't balancable in a reasonable way, and it is clear that the cast was really balanced outside of them in standard Brawl and has been honed in Balanced Brawl still not considering them. They also frequently don't work very well on a variety of stages or across game modes (like singles vs doubles) which is an extra headache, but even just considering singles I'm pretty convinced it's impossible to improve the game by including them and almost impossible to avoid hurting the game by doing so.
 

Alopex

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Fundamentally, AA is right.

I mean, the only way to balance transformation Final Smashes like the Landmasters would be to create vulnerability in the fashion of the Hammer. You mess up and get hit in the underbelly, you are pretty much done for.

But no one plays with the Hammer turned on anyway, even though it's the perfect demonstration of overpowered balance.

Final Smashes would have the same fate.

Just enjoy them in FFA's - there are AllBrawl side-events these days and they are getting popular, use the Final Smashes there. Could even be an AllBBrawl event one day...


Besides, didn't you guys say ages ago that you're working on a patch for v3? Your energy is much better spent there, AA and Think! Come on! (a la Falcon)
 
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:S i wish there was something you guys could do to them atlleast. I hate not being able to use them.

I figured these changes are possible:
falco fox and wolf decrease the high they get with there jumps with land master
peach increase the dmage output when they fall asleep
snake make the shots be able to go faster
sonic do less damage and knockback
mario does more damage and knockback
olimars reduce the knockack from the landing blast and lower it's range
kirby increase the damage
donkey kongs increase the range of the hitboxes for the large waves.

I'm just saying they should also look into FS's if they could find a solution balanced brawl would definitely gain in popularity as it wouldn't just be fixing and balancing attacks but also adding viability of FS's something I'm sure many of us were upset to find it getting banned. Lowering the killing power and damage of some final smashes will require them to actually think when to use FS's instead of just getting it and pressing B.

Well anyway i was just throwing out suggestions of what could be done but i guess the can't.
 

Rainierman

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I wouldn't call it impossible... but a too hard of a task for the low priority it has. More than rebalancing them, AA and Thinkaman would have to reimagine the Final Smashes.

I mean, all of the Landmasters get their duration reduced when you harm them (for example). This is so insignificant that it doesn't really matter in vBrawl, but it could be tinkered with (along many other stuff) and eventually result in a balance. I'd guess a kind of balance akin to edgeguarding, when one side has a clear situational advantage. But that's just 1 to 3 out of... 37 or so, total?

To those who might be unhappy with AA and Think's stance... it's not such an easy task all things considered (just look at AA's last post). They have a project for which they have worked a lot for, that's btw still not finished, thanks to which some of us can really enjoy Brawl again.

Adding Final Smashes to the formula... that would demand time that would otherwise go to the actual development of the project's goal. A lot of time because of how hard it would be. Not to mention that this game they are fixing isn't even a game of their own!, so they are even limited to what the hacking community has achieved so far. The task might actually still not be possible for today's progress on Brawl hacking. In reality, this is something of a magnitude that could merit a project of its own.

On the other hand, today it might be impossible for Final Smashes to be made to improve the game, but later on, it might not. Maybe when it becomes possible it won't necessarily have to fall on Amazing Ampharos and Thinkaman's shoulders either, like many of us pretend everything that shows up in a sentence along with the word "balance" does (and sorry about that, you two).

The reasons not to pursue balancing Final Smashes inside *this* project (or in any other) today might still apply forever on, but who knows? I didn't think Brawl could possibly be balanced before, and now look where we are all standing today. Definitely not a reason to call something of that nature impossible back then, nor, I'd think, today.

But until then... limiting them to free for alls sounds like a great idea :).


I have a low post count but, I didn't want this to go unsaid. Let's not be mad at Think or AA for this. They know what they are doing. Neither lose hope that someday it might be done.
 

Steeler

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so i had some ideas lately

squirtle

uncharged water gun buffed to not be awful, at least safe on hit
aerial water gun cancel does not lead to an air dodge (similar to diddy popguns)

ivysaur

aerial razor leaf animation auto-cancels upon landing
jabs 1/2 hit more consistently

charizard

fair far hits flinch but still no knockback. not sure how this would work, but the point is that zard can get punished on hit for it. damage nerfed back to 2 or 3%

meta knight

i'd really like to see no gliding out of shuttle loop, possibly with the damage/knockback buffed back up a bit. the risk/reward on this move, especially in the air, is ********
attacks not being transcendent anymore??? not sure if this is possible but it would be really nice imo

donkey kong/bowser

mashing b increases vertical distance (ic's/luigi specials)

r.o.b.

no recharge necessary for weak laser

snake

more cooldown on dthrow because that junk really ***** certain characters

idk
 

A2ZOMG

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Metaknight's Up-B is fine as is if you ask me. Most characters can punish it on block just fine, just it was previously too powerful a gimp move, which was fixed.

And it IS possible to change transcendence on moves easily. It might have the most impact on the first hit of MK's F-tilt or his D-tilt I guess. Not sure how much it would change matchups though. Personally I think MK's N-air is a more stupid move that deserves to be tweaked a bit.

Donkey Kong's recovery is mostly fine if you ask me because at least he can autocancel his Up-B mostly laglessly, and his Up-B has a pretty good hitbox. As for Bowser, that one is definitely more iffy just given he can't land on stage safely ever, and the anti-planking mechanics are not in his favor when getting edgetrapped. However his Down-B is at least a viable "reversal" option as of now. All he needs are better throws to make up for lost grab release reward, and it should be fine.

I dunno why you think ROB's laser needs to be changed, or what matchups you think he does poorly in. I don't see him as having any really bad matchups. At worst characters like G&W, Peach, Sheik, and MK are slight disadvantage for him. Kirby I believe sorta counters him, as in despite being a weaker character goes no worse than 50/50 with him. ROB I think is fine as is. He's probably one of the more powerful contenders overall. And I don't see how buffing ROB's laser really changes anything concerning these matchups.

And Snake's D-throw I think is acceptable with the damage nerf. I'd personally nerf the damage slightly more, and at any rate I feel Snake's F-tilt was nerfed a smidgen too much (I would give Snake back his VBrawl F-tilt damage paramaters, and make F-tilt1 meteor hitbox have bkb 80, which would create a move that does 18% when you land both hits, but is better for KOs when you only land the 2nd hit on grounded opponents).
 

JOE!

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AA or Thinka, a little ways back did one of you meet a "Jason Wiser/Wiener" at some con or another where you both volunteered?

Dude said he met one of you and talked BBrawl with him, he's one of my profs for game design :p
 

Steeler

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well, i was looking through all the changes again and it seemed that for a mid tier character, rob didn't get anything notable in bbrawl. the new throw changes are cool i guess, but i don't think that really does much to change matchups for him...new ftilt is overall a slight buff at best, and i don't feel like the boost on laser does enough for his KO power. it'd be nice to see fsmash have consistently good knockback on all its hitboxes.

perhaps increase rob's shield size? i think he has the second largest standing hurtbox in the game or something like that. very easy to shield poke, and it's not like rob is able to run away or camp amazingly well. he should have a shield that matches how large he actually is.

it's not one particular matchup. i just feel like rob has sort of been 'passed by' like peach and wolf were in v1.

also, i'd like to see charizard's dash attack buffed like DK's is. both were very similarly awful. it'd also be nice if zard's usmash linked more consistently... example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikru5Bewu5o&t=3m22s count all of the usmashes...

the idea with mk transcendence is that he can't just throw fast, ranged moves and flat out beat the opponent's move. honestly, with that change i think dsmash could go back to normal knockback. transcendence is usually very rare if i'm not mistaken (only luke aura and dancing blade come to mind) and to have a whole moveset full of it seems silly to me. lucario is at least quite a bit slower than MK is...

JOE, that would have been thinkaman.
 

Supreme Dirt

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There are loads of other transcendence in the game. All of Zelda's magic attacks, for example, lasers, Ness FAir, stuff like that. I'm also fairly certain that Lucas has a bunch of it, but don't quote me on that.
 

ぱみゅ

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Trascendence is overrated, sometimes is bad not having a fast move that clashes with opponent's attacks (it's also pretty bad when dealing with snake's granades).

Also, nado is now awful.... I mean, is good for shield pressure.. except because people don't need to shield it, just get the hit, you'll be popped out and MK has 30 frames of cooldown that most characters can punish hard... just do not worth the risk..

And some interesting behavior I find with C-stick mapped to Specials: MK can press it down and then press any direction to make the faster Dimensional Cape lol



I'd be okay with Steeler's Charizard buffs, usmash one particulary.

And I'm not sure about ROB's shield, he has a good Roll and Spotdodge (not specially good, just flat "good")...
 

Steeler

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if anything, i'd like to see tornado at some kind of balance between vbrawl and bbrawl, plus LOWER PRIORITY.

you guys are right about the transcendence...i guess it's not that rare.

i think yoshi and bowser should have throws that kill at around 140% on average. nerf back yoshi dsmash a bit. perhaps let yoshi dthrow set up juggles a bit better. i'd also like to see marth get better overall throws that are useful all the time, not just at 0%. plus it is a bit disappointing that he is basically unchanged from vbrawl.
 

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Tornado's priority is just because of non-trascendant hitboxes mechanics, where if the damage dealt difference between both is less than 10%, both clashes. Sice tornado is a Multihit move, it will just continue its normal pacing, while the other one will be clashed out and reset its "standard" position, resulting in getting damaged (unless it's another multihit).

BYoshi and BBowser are quite fine, imo.

And I'd like to see some Marth changes as well.
 

A2ZOMG

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Yoshi doesn't really need kill throws, I don't know which matchups this solves. And I feel it's okay that his KO setups are iffy when he's decent at running away. Buffed D-smash as far as I'm concerned is all he needed to really be a contender. He might be a tad underpowered compared to the current top contenders, and I feel the best potential solution to that is tweaking the mechanics of Egg Lay, so that he does more damage on people he grabs with that move.

Bowser you might have a case for a slightly stronger kill throw, though I don't have statistics on how strong his current throws are (which did all receive some straight damage buffs). The other thing that I think would be good for him is if Klaw had a 1% damage buff with compensated knockback.

ROB, Donkey Kong, and Bowser actually are all characters I believe who probably should have slightly larger shields.

If there was perhaps one other thing I would change for ROB, I would give his N-air a 1% damage buff with compensated knockback. This is a move that he tends to need in some of his harder matchups where he's juggled a lot.

Steeler, I'm not sure what you mean by Marth having throws that are useless after 0%. Marth's throws are actually really good until maybe 70%, or some fairly high range, possibly higher if his throws are stale which is not unusual. However what I did propose once was tweaking Marth's throws to remove his low percent F-throw chaingrabs on certain characters. My personal build of Marth is one where at 0 he can consistently F-throw F-smash the entire cast, but cannot get more than one regrab on characters like Fox with his F-throw. This prevents gimmicky shenanigans like the chaingrab spike for the most part that he has on space animals. Also the new F-throw as compensation has less overall growth rate so thus stays more consistent at a wider range of percents.

Other random changes I want:
1% damage increases to Mario's 3rd hit of Jab, F-tilt, and N-air.
1% damage increase to Luigi's Jab3
altered knockback on Samus's U-smash to make the hits more reliably connect (SDI factor unchanged)
1% less damage on Snake's grenades, 1% more to side throws
1% more damage to Link's bombs, slight bkb buff to Dash Attack
bkb adjustment to Falco's F-air so hits reliably link, -1 damage to Jab1
 

Steeler

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i think it would be really, really cool if when link is holding a bomb and presses down special again, the bomb blows up on him.

agree on the rob nair buff.

rob doesn't seem to do much damage with any of his normal attacks.

i'd like to see marth lose his cg to spike and gain something unique and useful for balanced brawl.

same with diddy. maybe a usmash buff?

what do you guys think of a damage buff to ike dash attack with knockback compensation? it does 9% iirc.

i'm still not a fan of double jump canceling out of fox and wolf illusions...wolf moreso than fox.

what if tornado was transcendent? then you'd need to outrange it in order to beat it...not sure how large the hitbubbles are on it or how well the cast would be able to hit through that.
 

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If Tornado were trascendant, everything would stop it (anything well spaced), including jabs, tilts and everything that could be buffed OoS -or Out of a Roll for that matter-
Also, he would have trouble in many matchups like ToonLink where he needs nado clashing with certain stuff.
 

Supreme Dirt

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Yeah, transcendent Nado would be a nerf.

HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IDEA.

Make Nado transcendent. See how it goes. It only buffs it on the ground, and grounded Nado would STILL be bad (so easily punishable).
 

Steeler

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idk

currently tornado is pitiful, but still majorly annoying if used defensively.

i really think the idea of link blowing himself up on command would be a really cool buff for his recovery.
 

Supreme Dirt

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What I mean is, revert Nado to its vBrawl state and make it transcendent. See how it functions.
 

Laos Oman

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I've been away from Smash Bros. for a while... obviously, away from Smashboards as well.

Decided to see if anything new happened with this project. The IC changes definitely got me excited to play this game again... can't wait for the PAL release~
 

ぱみゅ

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Transcendent nado sounds as a bad idea.... but I'd be okay with testing.
 

JRC LSS

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Perhaps I'm missing something, but Pikachu still has a pretty major down throw chaingrab on certain characters. I was able to cg a lvl 9 fox to around 140ish (to the point where I could just do a nair for the kill). You have to turn around after every throw for it to work, but the chaingrab is still there. I don't have another person I could test this with right now, so maybe there is something a human could do to get out of this, but it seems pretty inescapable.
 
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