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Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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It is a very direct code. C-stick does the cancel independent of your control scheme. No non-c-stick inputs can do the cancel (one of a VERY small number of things that can't be done without the c-stick). That would usually be bad, but given the very specific needs of that situation, it is acceptable.

I want to hear about people playing on Flat Zone 2 personally, but hearing about any of them would be fun.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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Classic controller almost definitely can since the right stick is a c-stick equivalent. I dunno about nunchuck but suspect it can't (maybe test shake smash?). This is an edge case we did think about but in the end had to choose the path of least evil which was what we did. Fixing IDC is a bigger plus than the alternate controller minuses of an only kinda helpful technique on one character.
 

qwerty

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
5
So, Nunchuck/Classic users are unable to use it?
If you use Wiimote + Nunchuk you can change the input of the d-pad to be smashes which will make it function kinda like a c-stick. I don't know if it works for canceling Dimensional Cape since I'm not able to try it out.
 

Rainierman

Smash Rookie
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Oct 24, 2010
Messages
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Uhm, I got a REALLY harmless bug (so no worries), but I'm not sure if it's standard Brawl behavior or an actual bug worth noting. Thing is I tried but couldn't replicate it. But well, I thought at least I should make you know. I think it's a vBrawl thing though.

P1 Ganondorf, P2 Ice Climbers (white color). We were playing in Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, and inbetween the fighting, well, Nana (the main IC because of the color scheme) fell through the very first hole (the one before the split path of blocks). Thing is, when they spawned back, Popo just fell of the invincibility platform, while Nana was still on it. He would jump and try to keep up with Nana, and even lost his invincibility before she actually got down herself. Sorry I didn't think of saving a replay until right after pressing Start... But that is all there was to it.

Btw, Flat Zone 2 is actually playable now. I like it. And for a first we weren't angry after playing on it, lol. We will surely keep testing it.
Oh and about the C-Stick thing... uhm, I see. Well that's good. I guess it's not seriously an issue.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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I've never seen anything like that ICs bug before, but I can't imagine anything we would do that would cause that. I know ICs sometimes have awkwardness in respawning on moving stages which is true in both Melee and all forms of Brawl, but this particular case is novel to me. Thanks for reporting it though.
 

TheSaintKai

Smash Ace
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Jun 3, 2010
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754
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Pensacola, FL
Uhm, I got a REALLY harmless bug (so no worries), but I'm not sure if it's standard Brawl behavior or an actual bug worth noting. Thing is I tried but couldn't replicate it. But well, I thought at least I should make you know. I think it's a vBrawl thing though.

P1 Ganondorf, P2 Ice Climbers (white color). We were playing in Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, and inbetween the fighting, well, Nana (the main IC because of the color scheme) fell through the very first hole (the one before the split path of blocks). Thing is, when they spawned back, Popo just fell of the invincibility platform, while Nana was still on it. He would jump and try to keep up with Nana, and even lost his invincibility before she actually got down herself. Sorry I didn't think of saving a replay until right after pressing Start... But that is all there was to it.

Btw, Flat Zone 2 is actually playable now. I like it. And for a first we weren't angry after playing on it, lol. We will surely keep testing it.
Oh and about the C-Stick thing... uhm, I see. Well that's good. I guess it's not seriously an issue.
There's actually a desync called the respawn desync where the secondary Climber will fall through the platform before the main Climber.
Chances are you activated that on accident.

All you have to do is press down as the platform is descending, and then let go of the input as the platform stops. Nana falls, Popo remains.

That being said, all of the other desyncs still exist, aye?
 

KingJacob

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77
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Waco, Texas
I don't know if I should post this here but what exactly has to happen before a release candidate becomes an official release? Also where do people discuss character match-ups for balanced brawl?
 

A2ZOMG

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AA and Thinkaman are just looking for feedback. They have some general ideas that they are throwing out, and they would like to hear some outside input on the progress they have made before they fine tune everything.

Character matchups can be discussed directly in this thread.
 

KingJacob

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I currently use this stagelist and I was wondering what I should add for balanced brawl now that you have fixed many of the stages.
Battlefield
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Also, though my game appears to be balanced brawl, I do not seem to have the wifi training room. Did you decide not to use it? Or do I have to download it seperately?
 

dansal

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Aug 9, 2009
Messages
96
It would probably be easier to make a list of stages not to include.
 

Last Elixir

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Oct 23, 2010
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I currently use this stagelist and I was wondering what I should add for balanced brawl now that you have fixed many of the stages.
Battlefield
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Also, though my game appears to be balanced brawl, I do not seem to have the wifi training room. Did you decide not to use it? Or do I have to download it seperately?
You'll have to edit your .gct to have that code included. I can upload my .gct that is exactly the .gct for BBrawl 3, but also has the Wifi Room over Hanenbow and the camera is unlocked, if you like.
 

Last Elixir

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BBrawl2 had a code that added a WWR icon to the SSS. Why isn't this code included n BBrawl3 RC as well?
Well, BBrawl 3 doesn't have that stage as a legal stage, so they simply took it out. Hanenbow isn't a legal stage either though (thank the gods) so you don't exactly lose much by reinputting the codes. The way I have my .gct set up doesn't let me see WWR's icon, but does replace it, if someone could relinquish to me a better code I could fix that, though it is really a non issue when I have the stage anyway.
 

KingJacob

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So why is the Wifi waiting room no longer officially part of the stage-list? Also, does anyone host balanced brawl tournaments? I would really like to see some footage from a recent balanced brawl tournament.

Also I wanted to add that I am now testing some of the match-ups.

Ganondorf seems to have a slight advantage against Ike because his tech-chase game is really good and Ike has enough lag on some of his moves that you can easily land a Forward-B against him. I also uploaded one of my test matches because of the first stock in the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfmIc6BxCi4

Captain Falcon has a small advantage against Ganondorf due to more safe options, with nearly as good of kill power.

I know I am not really all that credible because I am not that great of a player, but I just wanted to start some discussion
 

A2ZOMG

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There were BBrawl tournaments a looooong time ago. UTD Zac and RenegadeTX2000 hosted them.

Those seem to be reasonable matchup observations. I do agree with them.

Let's see, matchups that I have opinions on....they mainly revolve around Olimar, since one of my friends is an Olimar main.

Ganon vs Olimar is either 55/45 or 6/4 Olimar. Overall a counterpick against Ganon if the Olimar knows what he's doing, but not unwinnable given the reward for legitimately outplaying him.

Bowser vs Olimar...quite frankly is still at least 65/35 Olimar's favor. Like to be frank, Bowser doesn't really have much to approach with besides Klaw Hopping, which can be beaten with Purple tosses, Up-B, and U-smash usually isn't fun for Bowser to deal with (even if he can potentially DownB through a U-smash on a read). I feel Bowser should have a damage buff on SideB (with compensated knockback). That above anything else that I can think of would be most useful against Olimar.

Falco vs Olimar...if I recall was 55/45 Falco's favor in vBrawl. To me it feels like a 6/4 matchup in Falco's favor in BBrawl, just due to how good the D-throw change is in that matchup. Setting up into an even easier BDACUS that appears like it can't be DIed (only dodged on reflex...maybe) seems kinda too good especially in a matchup like that one where Olimar fundamentally is limited on options to get past Falco's Jabs and lasers. I think buffing Olimar's D-tilt actually could be an appropriate solution to balance this matchup, given that it seems he can basically D-tilt under lasers.
 

ぱみゅ

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Ally played (and won) Ren's tournament lol

He said pretty nothing, just that game was pretty much the same...

I have few MU observations, other than MK having really bad MUs against some people like DDD, DK and Olimar mainy, just because he's unable to kill them and he dies early....
 

A2ZOMG

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Yeah anyhow Falco really really really should be touched up a bit. Overall I feel he's the most polarizing character in the game.

Aside from the fact he has some slight disadvantage matchups like Fox, Marth, and Wolf, just he gets too much reward for things that many characters really struggle to deal with.

His Jabs not only are extremely fast, but they have some of the best range in the game and his rapid Jabs are so safe if you are not Marth basically, so a lot of characters will basically work past Falco's lasers only to get Jabbed over and over. Furthermore the damage on his Jabs is generally good. If I recall, 11-12 damage from his Jab -> Rapid Jabs is pretty typical if not SDIed extremely well and above average. 17-18% if he follows up with Shine. About 20% if he follows up with F-tilt/Dash attack.

And then his grab...I feel Falco's grab reward is simply far too good given how many characters can get grabbed easily for falling into Falco's Jab pressure. Unless I missed something, it appears you CANNOT DI to escape Falco's D-throw -> BDACUS combo in BBrawl. I THINK for the most part you can airdodge it, though I'm actually not entirely sure if some lightweights can't even do that either. Even in vBrawl, Falco's D-throw outside of the chaingrab was amazing due to the threat of BDACUS, and if they tried to DI to escape, you could usually follow up with F-air. I really think that Falco's D-throw should be tweaked with this in perspective.

Given that Falco's B-throw sets up into a virtually guaranteed aerial of Falco's choice as well, it just seems Falco has too many amazingly good setups that not only can do massive damage, but can lead to safe and easy kills. I personally think the B-throw buff is unnecessary and too good. Especially consider how much Falco benefits from anti-planking mechanic changes. Getting people offstage is just fine for Falco, given how easy it is for Falco to land his F-smash and B-air on most people who find themselves on the ledge against him.

Generally speaking Falco seems to do poorly against people who don't get ***** by lasers and can challenge his Jabs. I would take off damage from his Jab1 (which does 4% currently) and his lasers (which do 3%), given that they're mostly too good against a lot of characters, while those getting nerfed is of little consequence in Falco's actually poor matchups. I would BUFF the damage of his Shine, a buff somewhat targeted with the Marth matchup in mind given its ability to challenge Marth in a range where Marth is strong in. F-tilt bkb should be increased slightly, while kbg is reduced slightly (changing hits to non-reversible special offensive collisions would be good, given Falco's "reverse" F-tilt looks very unnatural). I would also consider increasing the bkb of his Rapid Jabs, or perhaps tweaking that wind hitbox so that they are consistently safer. D-throw angle and BKB should be tweaked a bit so that the option of DIing the BDACUS followup exists. F-air should get a small damage and knockback buff (if I recall, at various percents, Falco can be interrupted between F-air hits, since they do not actually combo into each other according to training mode).
 

KingJacob

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It sucks that their are no more balanced brawl tournaments really. I actually live close enough to where I could go to the tournaments that UTDZack hosted. However you said he no longer hosts them? Also I feel like the tier list for balanced brawl is way way more balanced then it was before, but I feel like some of the match-ups are almost as bad. For instance like you were saying Falco still ***** anyone who cannot deal with his lasers and his jab, Olimar just creates a lot of unbalanced match-ups with his safe fast options, ability to make others approach, and high KO power. Also Meta-knight used be relatively even with Olimar, but now its at least 60-40 Olimar.
 

A2ZOMG

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I feel that generally speaking Olimar is better handled than Falco, given that more characters were tweaked with his playstyle in mind. Ganon comes to mind, and while he's disadvantaged, the matchup is no longer unwinnable. Although I feel Olimar is a little too good against Bowser and perhaps Donkey Kong. Olimar has a fairly high number of slight disadvantage matchups as well (Mario Bros, Marth, Ness, Yoshi are all pretty good against him), so overall, he's balanced.

Falco I feel is just a character that is generally too good against over half the cast because of a single dominating playstyle. At the same time, that playstyle happens to be not so effective against Marth and to a lesser extent the other spacies, which gives him basically three matchups he kinda sucks in, compared to a whole ton of matchups that Falco pretty much just outperforms most other characters in.
 

KingJacob

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I agree with you I just think Olimar is up there as well, and it definitely makes sense that Ness would give him problems considering they were practically even in normal Brawl. Unfortunately I am worried that balanced brawl will never have the kind of data required to make a really good match-up chart unless a couple of tournament organizers start hosting them on a regular basis. I think that Balanced Brawl could become the most balanced fighting game of all time, if people would actually make tournaments for it.
 

Thinkaman

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BBrawl2 had a code that added a WWR icon to the SSS. Why isn't this code included n BBrawl3 RC as well?
We have removed WWR from the official set because it sadly doesn't meet the quality standard for this release. The primary factor is the potential crash in the My Music menu, but additionally the stage's glitches and funky item behavior is not very kosher. I will probably continue to make the stage myself, and will also make sure such resources are conviently available for those that want them.

Ganondorf seems to have a slight advantage against Ike because his tech-chase game is really good and Ike has enough lag on some of his moves that you can easily land a Forward-B against him.
I actually think Ike has a small but non-trivial advantage over Ganondorf. Reward from flame choke is lower than usual, and Ike's jabs really shine.

Captain Falcon has a small advantage against Ganondorf due to more safe options, with nearly as good of kill power.
I wouldn't say nearly as good, but Ganon also has low flame choke reward in this matchup.

Ganon vs Olimar is either 55/45 or 6/4 Olimar. Overall a counterpick against Ganon if the Olimar knows what he's doing, but not unwinnable given the reward for legitimately outplaying him.
I agree. This matchup has long been a concern, along with Falcon and...

Bowser vs Olimar...quite frankly is still at least 65/35 Olimar's favor. Like to be frank, Bowser doesn't really have much to approach with besides Klaw Hopping, which can be beaten with Purple tosses, Up-B, and U-smash usually isn't fun for Bowser to deal with (even if he can potentially DownB through a U-smash on a read). I feel Bowser should have a damage buff on SideB (with compensated knockback). That above anything else that I can think of would be most useful against Olimar.
Yeah, this is the other bad Olimar matchup. I've been meaning to test the down-b buff in more explicit detail against him, sorry for putting this off.

Falco vs Olimar...if I recall was 55/45 Falco's favor in vBrawl. To me it feels like a 6/4 matchup in Falco's favor in BBrawl, just due to how good the D-throw change is in that matchup. Setting up into an even easier BDACUS that appears like it can't be DIed (only dodged on reflex...maybe) seems kinda too good especially in a matchup like that one where Olimar fundamentally is limited on options to get past Falco's Jabs and lasers. I think buffing Olimar's D-tilt actually could be an appropriate solution to balance this matchup, given that it seems he can basically D-tilt under lasers.
I don't think it's really shifted significantly; based on my play most characters including Olimar can DI away from less exciting options and DI in/up to only get hit by the weak hitbox of BDACUS.

I have few MU observations, other than MK having really bad MUs against some people like DDD, DK and Olimar mainy, just because he's unable to kill them and he dies early....
Hmm, DDD and Olimar surprise me, especially Olimar. MK can still get Olimar off stage almost as easy, and still gimp Olimar hard. This is one of those matchups that focuses on MK dair more than the 3 moves that were slighlty nerfed, so it should have been impacted less than almost any other matchup. As for DDD, tornado is still jsut as viable even if it's not as rewarding, so MK just plain has more options in general. DDD is also one of the few characters slower horizontally in the air than MK, which is really fundamentally nice for MK.

Yeah anyhow Falco really really really should be touched up a bit. Overall I feel he's the most polarizing character in the game.

Aside from the fact he has some slight disadvantage matchups like Fox, Marth, and Wolf, just he gets too much reward for things that many characters really struggle to deal with.

His Jabs not only are extremely fast, but they have some of the best range in the game and his rapid Jabs are so safe if you are not Marth basically, so a lot of characters will basically work past Falco's lasers only to get Jabbed over and over. Furthermore the damage on his Jabs is generally good. If I recall, 11-12 damage from his Jab -> Rapid Jabs is pretty typical if not SDIed extremely well and above average. 17-18% if he follows up with Shine. About 20% if he follows up with F-tilt/Dash attack.
I'll come out and say in advance that I don't think Falco is a problem. Yeah, he has lasers and a good close game. Shine and bair are also solid moves although not super crazy. Otherwise... he's lightweight, has limited recovery options, and has trouble killing things.

I think Lucas currently has a more terrifying close game, which is slightly similar to Falco's. Also, "lol sheik".

And then his grab...I feel Falco's grab reward is simply far too good given how many characters can get grabbed easily for falling into Falco's Jab pressure. Unless I missed something, it appears you CANNOT DI to escape Falco's D-throw -> BDACUS combo in BBrawl. I THINK for the most part you can airdodge it, though I'm actually not entirely sure if some lightweights can't even do that either. Even in vBrawl, Falco's D-throw outside of the chaingrab was amazing due to the threat of BDACUS, and if they tried to DI to escape, you could usually follow up with F-air. I really think that Falco's D-throw should be tweaked with this in perspective.
I have a "perfect Falco file", where every Falco dash attack automatically does a perfect BDACUS. My testing shows that Falco can typically always land a BDACUS, but it's easy to DI in and get hit by the weak part.

Given that Falco's B-throw sets up into a virtually guaranteed aerial of Falco's choice as well, it just seems Falco has too many amazingly good setups that not only can do massive damage, but can lead to safe and easy kills. I personally think the B-throw buff is unnecessary and too good.
Wow, this is the first time anyone has said this, or any opinion remotely similar. (Not that I mind!) Falco has no guaranteed options out of b-throw in most situations, not even close if they DI up and air dodge any aerial. Most people have called it a nerf. (I thing it's about neutral.)

g2g, I'll post more later.
 

Supreme Dirt

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I find it annoying that you seem to want more publicity with this, yet the official website and even the OP are not updated for V3. As it is, someone who wants V3 has to dig through the thread.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm not sure that DK is a significantly poor matchup for Olimar. His minor down-b and dash attack buffs actually matter a decent amount against Olimar, which is nice. His tweaked f->d throw is better for Olimar now too.

Another point on Falco, being a light character doesn't do him many favors in the midst of the overall BBrawl changes to the roster at large. Having a poor recovery stresses this, unlike Fox or Jigglypuff who enjoy some mitigation of the impact in spite of having even lower weights.

I honestly don't see Falco as much of a problem. His design will always be slightly polarizing, but in that aspect he's a lot less problematic than Olimar, Jigglypuff, Marth, G&W, or a couple others. (Olimar is probably the worst, but manageable. I think he has a lot of 6/4 and 4/6 matchups, but not much worse either way, which I'm okay with.)

I find it annoying that you seem to want more publicity with this, yet the official website and even the OP are not updated for V3. As it is, someone who wants V3 has to dig through the thread.
Version 3 isn't out yet. We're just making this release candidate publicly available for testing.

When v3 is finalized, the website documentation and resources will be fully updated. We actually have most of that material tentatively ready to go already.
 

A2ZOMG

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DK vs Olimar from what little I can tell seems extremely annoying if the Olimar user stays outside of DK's Down-B range for most of the match, where Olimar has more options to control the pace and force mistakes that he can react to. Though yeah, the F-D-throw buff is legit in that matchup.

I feel that to a small extent, you undervalue the weak U-smash hit on Falco's BDACUS, which if it doesn't kill, tends to at least get people offstage, which is a BAD position for a lot of the cast given how well Falco can prevent people from getting back onstage safely.

I can't really help but feel that Falco doesn't really care how much damage he needs to rack in 90% of his matchups. If it takes 150 (usually enough for weak U-smash to kill), or heck 200% to reliably set up a kill, Falco doesn't care as long as he can find a time and place to land the move that will kill at the specified percent. Removing the chaingrab I feel in actual practice barely effects Falco at all, given he has some of the best normal combos and followups in the game. The fact that his D-throw is a much more consistent combo starter that's resistant to combo DI is kinda too good. The positional advantage he gets from it is so good that I feel the situation is often not truly 50/50.

Anyhow back to Olimar, my observations are that Olimar just HATES the BDACUS combo period. Not only does the strong hit kill him respectably early, but the weak hit still tends to put Olimar in a terrible position if he survives it. I should note that Falco's edgeguards are especially scary for Olimar to deal with.
 

Last Elixir

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I'm not sure that DK is a significantly poor matchup for Olimar. His minor down-b and dash attack buffs actually matter a decent amount against Olimar, which is nice. His tweaked f->d throw is better for Olimar now too.

Another point on Falco, being a light character doesn't do him many favors in the midst of the overall BBrawl changes to the roster at large. Having a poor recovery stresses this, unlike Fox or Jigglypuff who enjoy some mitigation of the impact in spite of having even lower weights.

I honestly don't see Falco as much of a problem. His design will always be slightly polarizing, but in that aspect he's a lot less problematic than Olimar, Jigglypuff, Marth, G&W, or a couple others. (Olimar is probably the worst, but manageable. I think he has a lot of 6/4 and 4/6 matchups, but not much worse either way, which I'm okay with.)



Version 3 isn't out yet. We're just making this release candidate publicly available for testing.

When v3 is finalized, the website documentation and resources will be fully updated. We actually have most of that material tentatively ready to go already.
Out of curiosity, have you guys come up with any sorts of changes from the candidate that was posted earlier?

Also, have you considered changing Nana's recovery move in such a way that if both of you are offstage, and she's desynced from you for whatever reason and uses it on her own, making it so you can still catch her to "save" her because otherwise it feels foolish to try and go offstage to get her as knowing when exactly she'll use that and die is hard to predict, and opens you up to getting punished?


Have you considered doing anything to make it easier to rescue Nana when you she gets offstage and isn't connected to you? I am having a lot of trouble with her using her up-b even though it won't save her, while I jump down to rescue her but cannot because she decided it was prudent to fall to her own death. Maybe make it so you can still pull her up with you if she's in the frames of her solo recovery move, or taking away her ability to do it so you will have to rescue her more often to keep her, but also making it more rewarding to try?

Edited for some amount of clarity, not sure if I make a lot more sense though. XP
 

Thinkaman

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DK vs Olimar from what little I can tell seems extremely annoying if the Olimar user stays outside of DK's Down-B range for most of the match, where Olimar has more options to control the pace and force mistakes that he can react to. Though yeah, the F-D-throw buff is legit in that matchup.
I don't think DK vs. Olimar is perfect, but it's definitely acceptable and not worth the risk of messing with either character. DK is himself in a great spot, and Olimar is frankly about as good as he's going to get with his current design. (I actually thing we are very fortunate that Olimar turned out in the base gmae as well as he did, otherwise we might have an unfixable disaster.) Screwing with Olimar I think is really dangerous to a lot of matchups.

I feel that to a small extent, you undervalue the weak U-smash hit on Falco's BDACUS, which if it doesn't kill, tends to at least get people offstage, which is a BAD position for a lot of the cast given how well Falco can prevent people from getting back onstage safely.
Naw, it's one of the most important sourspot hitboxes in the game, along with Jiggly fair, Falcon fair, and most nairs.

I can't really help but feel that Falco doesn't really care how much damage he needs to rack in 90% of his matchups. If it takes 150 (usually enough for weak U-smash to kill), or heck 200% to reliably set up a kill, Falco doesn't care as long as he can find a time and place to land the move that will kill at the specified percent.
It's easy to turn this perspective into hyperbole. He just deals more damage and kills later than most characters, it's not really a big concern or fundamental difference. If Falco had to get people to 400% he'd be trash of course, just like if Ganon had to get them to 200% he'd be trash.

Removing the chaingrab I feel in actual practice barely effects Falco at all, given he has some of the best normal combos and followups in the game. The fact that his D-throw is a much more consistent combo starter that's resistant to combo DI is kinda too good. The positional advantage he gets from it is so good that I feel the situation is often not truly 50/50.
I dunno, it depends. It definitely not strictly superior (the changed d-throw), but I do think pretty strongly that it is generally better across most matchups across most stages.

Of course, more diverse stages is a factor BBrawl has going against Falco, so YMMV...

Anyhow back to Olimar, my observations are that Olimar just HATES the BDACUS combo period. Not only does the strong hit kill him respectably early, but the weak hit still tends to put Olimar in a terrible position if he survives it. I should note that Falco's edgeguards are especially scary for Olimar to deal with.
Olimar is pretty good at avoiding grabs though, due to his own affinity for them. Olimar can take advantage of his gravity and enjoys Falco's light weight yet managable speed. I'm not saying Falco is going to be my favorite matchup as Olimar or even that it isn't in Falco's favor, but just that I don't see it as a problem. (ESPECIALLY given the two we're talking about here.)

I'm pretty confused at the idea that buffing d-tilt would help Olimar deal with lasers. If Falco is firing lasers, how are you landing a d-tilt? I don't think the rage on d-tilt is close enough to punish any attempted approach...

Out of curiosity, have you guys come up with any sorts of changes from the candidate that was posted earlier?
I think there were two minor bugfixes of some kind, but those might have been errors in the documentation and not the rc files themselves. I'm a bit low on sleep to remember details.

Also, have you considered changing Nana's recovery move in such a way that if both of you are offstage, and she's desynced from you for whatever reason and uses it on her own, making it so you can still catch her to "save" her because otherwise it feels foolish to try and go offstage to get her as knowing when exactly she'll use that and die is hard to predict, and opens you up to getting punished?
Nana is actually pretty consistent about this, it just takes some practice with ICs to get used to Nana's schedule.

Regardless, most hardcore ICs programming stuff is not within our grasp. They are pretty arcane, and I don't even understand where most of Nana's governing logic resides. (Despite some long hours hunting through Gecko's dumps...)
 

Last Elixir

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I see. Well, thank you for listening anyway, I appreciate that your responses to me don't just consist of "Well, get better at playing them." Even though that's basically the feeling I get, which I expect, as I kinda didn't care for IC before, and am only just now trying to get used to them to see how powerful they can be with these changes!
 

Thinkaman

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I see. Well, thank you for listening anyway, I appreciate that your responses to me don't just consist of "Well, get better at playing them." Even though that's basically the feeling I get, which I expect, as I kinda didn't care for IC before, and am only just now trying to get used to them to see how powerful they can be with these changes!
ICs are definitely a niche character, with a lot of unavoidable nuance. I definitely can relate, as I was very ignorant about and poor with ICs before we started this dev cycle. I don't think I've improved this much with any character thanks to the work spent on BBrawl since Lucas and Sheik/Zelda! (However, unlike them my ICs is still mediocre.)

A2Z, I spent a bit of extra time looking at "perfect Falco". At really high %s I can avoid the BDACUS on flat ground with a buffered air dodge as Jigglypuff, but that's about it. (And if Falco reads the dodge...) Normally the weak hitbox is unavoidable. I think the d-throw behavior is fine working as intended.

As an aside, how has DDD d-throw been working for people?

Ike and Luigi should be the only characters capable of avoiding the tech chase without DI, and only Zelda, ICs, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Snake should be able to DI away from it. Everyone in the game should be able to survive his d-throw "spike" if they DI away from the stage and recover, even Olimar.
 

A2ZOMG

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I hate how now I look like I'm QQing over Falco now that you reminded me that Falco actually doesn't like several stages.

Why does it have to be so difficult to argue that Falco is such a silly character? **** bird just refuses to stop being too cool for everyone.

And to be frank...I dunno how I would buff Olimar's D-tilt aside from making it interruptible a tad sooner, but either way I do feel that his matchup against Falco kinda got unnecessarily worse when the matchup wasn't exactly good for him in vBrawl.

Also, I think Falco grabs Olimar quite easily, given that Olimar is especially limited in his ability to punish Falco's Jab, so the fact BDACUS is even easier to land in general is not good news for him.

K moving on, more important than worrying about two silly characters, I still want Ganondorf to have his D-smash 2nd hit angle flip properties changed so that it always sends the target in the direction Ganon is not facing (as well as flipping the angle of the collisions from 130 to 50). I do think that Ganon's D-smash is actually an important spacer by virtue of its significant range and lean properties. Given that Ganon is a character who generally suffers from situational anti-air options, fixing D-smash would matter quite a bit, especially since from what I can tell, the shield push, were it to always push people behind Ganon, would make the move one of his safest on shield with the exception of his U-smash, which is unsafe by virtue of startup and silly hitbox. Sure Ganon's D-smash still has silly startup, but the hitbox actually is really good so...
 

libertyernie

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You might be able to fix the WWR My Music crash by using the Tracklist Modifier to assign it another stage's music. But there are certain glitches inherent in a stage that spawns Sandbag (i.e. Kirby's FS.)
 

Thinkaman

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I hate how now I look like I'm QQing over Falco now that you reminded me that Falco actually doesn't like several stages.
I'm not gonna deny it, I fall into an "FD bias" sometimes myself when considering matchups. AA is particularly good about keeping all stages in mind though, and never hesitates to call me out on it.
 

Supreme Dirt

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I always think of my region's 9 stage starter list, then think "where would they likely end up".

But that's just me, I overthink things all the time.
 

KingJacob

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Does anyone here have any interest in discussing character match-ups character by character?
I think that could prove to be interesting to the games competitive growth as well as useful for finding possible future changes. We would simply start with a character of interest and proceed to talk about all of their match-ups including how advantaged or disadvantaged they are. I don't really care what character we start with, but a structured attempt to determine current balanced brawl match-ups sounds like it could work out.
 

Last Elixir

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Does anyone here have any interest in discussing character match-ups character by character?
I think that could prove to be interesting to the games competitive growth as well as useful for finding possible future changes. We would simply start with a character of interest and proceed to talk about all of their match-ups including how advantaged or disadvantaged they are. I don't really care what character we start with, but a structured attempt to determine current balanced brawl match-ups sounds like it could work out.
Well, personally I like Lucas and Link a lot, so anything discussed about them would be handy. However I am now trying to get into IC since the changes, and also they saw a lot of changes, so looking into how they fare against everyone would probably be the most beneficial.
 

KingJacob

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Well seeing as we have to get to all of the characters eventually I see no reason not to start with the Ice Climbers. So yes we will all discuss their match-ups then after we feel we have gathered sufficent information in all of their match-ups, I or someone more eloquent/intelligent than I can write A general summary of the character, as well as summarizing each of his match-ups. Unfortunately someone else will have to start the discussion of this character, because even though I am certainly willing to pick him up for a while to contribute, I currently do not get their play-style at all. The good news is that by discussing the new Ice Climbers everyone can actually get a good feel for how to play as them.
 

A2ZOMG

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I wish I actually could say anything about the Ice Climbers, but I suck *** with them.

In theory I feel they are one of Ganondorf's worst matchups just by virtue of having some of the best ways in the game to prevent him from approaching safely...but then again I don't have a good IC main to play against to prove my point.

Characters like Ness, Lucas, and Mario who have fairly simple answers for directly dealing with ICs Blizzard walls while being relatively hard for the ICs to grab are decent against them. ROB I also feel is one of the hardest matchups for the ICs.

That's all I really know.
 

KingJacob

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I guess an important thing to include in the match-up discussion is also the strategy both characters should be using in the match-up. As well as key moves/combos and how to fight against those same moves/combos. Since this version of Ice-Climbers is still new I guess I will keep track of all of their combos that any one posts. combos so far:
1. Popo's Forward Tilt > Nana's Dash attack > Up Smash
2. Popo's Up Tilt > Nana's Forward Air
3. Popo's Up Tilt > Nana's Footstool > Popo's Grab > ??
4. Popo's Up Tilt > Nana's Back Air > Popo's Reverse Forward Smash
5. Popo's Down Tilt > Nana's Grab Up Throw > To Popo's Forward Air
6. Also I am Pretty sure- Popo's Forward Throw > Nana's Up Throw > Popo's Forward Air
7. Popo's Throw > Nana's Forward Air
As far as I am aware these were the only Ice Climbers combos posted and they were all posted within the change-list for the Ice Climbers. However, since I am not an Ice Climbers main I do not know what percents these work at and against which characters. Also with DI and air dodges, how many of these are true combos? The main reason for keeping track of Ice-climber combos is that it is hard to discuss a characters options in a match-up without bringing up the possible follow-ups should you land an attack.
 

ぱみゅ

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New Icies seems complicated, too much of a ew character, change between vBawl and BBrawl now is too much.... I'd like some IC mains to check that....
btw, Popo Dthrow > Nana Footstool > Freezie Lock > Popo Grab> ???? > PROFIT!
 

Steeler

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in bbrawl, footstools don't put characters in a 'forced get up' animation or whatever it's called, so that's not a problem kyokoro
 
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