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Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

Stammer6

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Hmm-- I discovered an 'infinite' problem just now. Zelda vs. Olimar on Corneria. We were on the tail end of the ship, I was standing just between the thruster and the docking bay (the door on the large spinal wing of the ship) facing towards the docking bay, and I was able to spam Zelda's neutral "A" against Olimar keeping him pressed against the ship. I got him from 0% to 200% and then was able to finish him off.

Not a huge problem, but it's something you may want to look into.
 

ぱみゅ

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Zelda's jab can be SDI'ed. It is not an infinite.


I'd gladly test BBV3, but I lost my Wiimote on the last tournament I attended....
Motejohns, sorry about that...
 

Last Elixir

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Hey, any chance that you'd make a version of this that enables the Wifi Waiting Room? The new file makes it so that when you're browsing through the random stage switch, Hanenbow still appears as the Wifi room, but on the stage select screen it's actually Hanenbow, and I'm sure that nobody would object to that stage being gone. =P

EDIT: Also, can I get some approach tips for using IC against Mario? I seem to pretty easily fall prey to getting whacked with a cape and having Nana turn ******** if I use the new tilting options against him, though maybe I just need to practice more.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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It's the way you wiggle your control stick to get out of repeated hits. There are a lot of mechanics involving directional inputs to escape repeated hits, all of which the AI is notoriously poor at using. Don't take the AI not being able to get out of something as evidence it's not escapable.
 

IYM!

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i have a qyestion about link recovery

in BBrawl 1 Link can use his Zair to recovery after the spin attack, but, because this dont get you in helpess state, you can perform another spin attack ( this is than i know)

in version 2, that fas fixed, now Link enter in helpess state after his Spin attack- Zair


i am right?
 

Thinkaman

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i have a qyestion about link recovery

in BBrawl 1 Link can use his Zair to recovery after the spin attack, but, because this dont get you in helpess state, you can perform another spin attack ( this is than i know)

in version 2, that fas fixed, now Link enter in helpess state after his Spin attack- Zair


i am right?
Link's up-b zair recovery was entirely new to BBrawl 2, and normally resulted in helpless falling state. There was a minor bug where if he did this and the tether "locked on" to an edge but came up short (typically when you are falling and the ledge is just barely out of range) he would not go helpless.

This has been fixed.
 

Smasher7

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I've noticed that Marth's counter doesn't connect on certain characters up close (Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Ness, Jigglypuff). It connects in regular Brawl, but not in BBrawl v2 or v3. Is it a glitch or designed like that on purpose?
 

Thinkaman

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I've noticed that Marth's counter doesn't connect on certain characters up close (Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Ness, Jigglypuff). It connects in regular Brawl, but not in BBrawl v2 or v3. Is it a glitch or designed like that on purpose?
That's very unusual, nothing about Marth's counter has been changed except the flag to let it hit through shields. Are you sure? It's kinda a small hitbox, positioned in front of Marth.
 

Smasher7

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I was pretty sure it hit all the time in regular Brawl. I was testing this in practice a little while ago. I positioned each character in front of Marth, then I told my brother to push A. It usually goes through. Right now I'm testing with Mario. It constantly misses Mario when he does his jab.

Maybe I need to redownload the files or something.
 

Thinkaman

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I was pretty sure it hit all the time in regular Brawl. I was testing this in practice a little while ago. I positioned each character in front of Marth, then I told my brother to push A. It usually goes through. Right now I'm testing with Mario. It constantly misses Mario when he does his jab.

Maybe I need to redownload the files or something.
Weird, I'm able to replicate this behavior. It's definitely local to the Marth file, but I ran a full diff and made sure nothing is out of place. It must be some oddball property of special offensive collisions, though I have no clue what. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I confirmed that Ike isn't affected, at least not in this sort of case.
 

Smasher7

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I was surprised nobody had mentioned that Marth glitch. I just figured it was done on pupose. Good thing I finally said something about it! There are also a few things that I think might be glitches. I'll see if I can recreate them in v3.

And by the way, I never got to say thanks for BBrawl. Otherwise, I would've stopped playing along time ago.

Edit: With Mario I've been able to U+B out of a lot of moves. Most notably rapid jabs. I've tested this on Fox, Falco, Diddy, Metaknight, Sheik, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, Pikachu. If King Dedede hits Mario with a jab, Mario can U+B him.

Mario can also interrupt Marth's L/R+B chains. I've tried:

L/R+B>U+B (Mario can U+B before the move is finished.).
L/R+Bx3>D+B (Mario can U+B before the move is finished.).

The only one that I've found that Mario can't interrupt is L/R+Bx4.

I'll post some other stuff later
 

Amazing Ampharos

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With a lot of these moves, odds are you are hitting at too big of a range which is letting Mario avoid getting hit as early as possible. Since his up special is frame 1 invincible, he can easily counter-attack with up special. I'm quite sure all varieties of Dancing Blade as well as the jabs for Fox, Falco, Diddy, Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Ivysaur are safe on hit.

I should point out that King Dedede's jab combo isn't actually a combo. The rapid jab is safe within itself, but his different jabs don't combo into each other. That is, jab 1 -> jab 2 could be interrupted as could jab 2 -> rapid jab. This was true in standard Brawl and hasn't changed. King Dedede's gameplay is based more around controlling space with moves like ftilt and relying on that grab at closer ranges. Jab is pretty situational with him.

Meta Knight's rapid jab is a pretty bad move, and that behavior isn't surprising on it. I suggest against using it.

Pikachu's jab doesn't lead into itself; imagine how stupid it would be if it did (it would become smart to get really spammy with jab as Pikachu). Of course if Pikachu just tries to go to town with jabs, he'll be wide open for things like Mario up special.

---

I also found that somehow our fix for Ice Climbers fusion didn't get integrated into BBrawl3, but that is being addressed alongside this goofy Marth Counter situation.
 

DKountry

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Hey folkls, I have a Homebrew Wii and play with a safety copy (i.e., I made a copy of my game and play on a external drive).

Thats will affect anything??
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm going to say, the ICs are NOT a pick up and play character like Wolf. Like, most competitive players won't be too crippled by randomly picking up Wolf, but you can't just expect to be any decent with the ICs without some investment.

BUT much easier desynchs feels extremely natural. The fact that Popo has enough power to sorta maintain himself as a standalone character is also pretty well handled.

Now the only problem is getting the IC mains and everyone else to see how amazing this is...
 

Last Elixir

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I'm going to say, the ICs are NOT a pick up and play character like Wolf. Like, most competitive players won't be too crippled by randomly picking up Wolf, but you can't just expect to be any decent with the ICs without some investment.

BUT much easier desynchs feels extremely natural. The fact that Popo has enough power to sorta maintain himself as a standalone character is also pretty well handled.

Now the only problem is getting the IC mains and everyone else to see how amazing this is...
Mayhap the appeal of easy desyncing and how awesome ftilting and dtilting are now will draw them in!

i did this question before


Can someone give me a Youtube chanel than have goods BBrawl matches, particulary with pros Link, Samus and Ganondorf?

please, i have month diying for see mu 3 favorite characters in action
I'm not sure there is a channel for that. I main a combination of Link and Lucas, though I'm not exactly a pro at the game. It is however rather agonizing for one to record rematches. =P If I have any particularly epic matches with my roomie or the other person I play with, I can save them to my SD card and send you the files, though I lack the proper equipment to record and upload to YouTube.
 

Smasher7

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With a lot of these moves, odds are you are hitting at too big of a range which is letting Mario avoid getting hit as early as possible. Since his up special is frame 1 invincible, he can easily counter-attack with up special. I'm quite sure all varieties of Dancing Blade as well as the jabs for Fox, Falco, Diddy, Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Ivysaur are safe on hit.
I guess I didn't explain myself too well before. I meant that Mario can U+B while getting hit on rapid jabs and on the last hit of Marth's Dancing Blade (The one that ends in D+B). If I'm too close, I eat all the damage, too far, it's less.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's fair that you can get hurt while landing a move on Mario. I guess I could just not use those moves.

I also know that Dedede's jabs don't combo. I meant that if he lands jab 1 or 2 on Mario, Mario can U+B and Dedede can't do anything. Granted, the Mario player would have to have quick reflexes, but still...

Just to be sure, I'll test this stuff again later on.
 

lizard81288

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well, i haven't posted here in some time. may sound noobish, but whats the difference between bBrawl & Brawl+? both, from what it seems, balances the game.
 

rPSIvysaur

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BBrawl tries to stay as true as possible to not altering Brawl's game engine, making the transfer from vBrawl to BBrawl and vice versa, much easier.
Brawl+ did a horrible job at balancing, but was the forerunner of Brawl hacks. It messes with things like hitstun and fall speed to make the game play different. Skill from brawl+ will not directly transfer to vBrawl or vice versa.
(vBrawl stands for Vanilla Brawl, aka the original Brawl)
 

A2ZOMG

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well, i haven't posted here in some time. may sound noobish, but whats the difference between bBrawl & Brawl+? both, from what it seems, balances the game.
Brawl+ kinda tries to be like Melee, but isn't. What gets me about Brawl+ is how drastically character playstyles are altered. Many of the changes they made to characters are completely arbitrary and don't really address any real problems characters and the game may have had fundamentally. I don't really understand why they would remove Marth and Mario's SH double aerials for example.

The worst part about Brawl+ is that I find it extremely noob friendly. Not only is hitstun close to Melee levels, the combos in Brawl+ in general are way too easy. Melee level combos being almost brain dead easy is something I find incredibly stupid. Yes you have ridiculous combos in Melee, but they are situational and require skill to implement correctly. Not so in Brawl+. Many characters just seem to get in a hit and then proceed to autojuggle the crap out of one another. That part of the game really isn't competitive...it's just stupid.

I'm pretty sure in a Brawl+ tournament, Vinnie, normally known as one of the best vBrawl G&W players, placed in the money. He doesn't even play the game, and he was beating people who were probably considered "pros" for that game. Similarly I feel like it's too easy for my Ganon to 3stock people who claim to like Brawl+ and have experience in it. Not only are there a ton of completely arbitrary changes in Brawl+...none of it really makes a better competitive game.

In BBrawl, as I recall, you're still seeing the same best players of vBrawl winning (in the few tournaments that did happen). Granted, many of those players generally picked up a character that was top tier in vBrawl. While there aren't as many top players for lesser ranked characters, the depth of competitive play for BBrawl is significantly better. Players who actually are good and invested in becoming strong players for Brawl still are solid competitors, where as bull**** happens in Brawl+ due to how little skill it actually requires.
 

KingJacob

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First of all I really love Balanced Brawl and feel that it is the most polished of all the smash mods. Also I was extremely glad that you finally fixed the Ice Climbers because they were the one character that bothered me in it. The only thing that I think should be changed is Jigglypuff's item taunt. the fact that it adds randomness to the game seems somewhat negative to me. Having a percent chance of pulling out an item that is actually too powerful to be able to pull all of the time just seems wrong. So instead of her pulling out random items, I think she should pull out a specific item that is more balanced (not really sure which item it should be).
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The algorithm is actually pseudo-random though probably too hard for normal people to predict.

Randomness is kinda a false evil really. The randomness that is bad is randomness in match result. All other randomness is only bad insofar as it increases randomness in match result. Does Jigglypuff's Mystery Gift meaningfully increase the randomness of a match outcome? I don't think it does. If someone told me "I would have won if Jigglypuff didn't pull so many good items!" I'd just be really suspicious. For one, Mystery Gift isn't even that good so Jigglypuff won't use it all that often. For two, the main factor in Mystery Gift is that you just can't let Jigglypuff keep doing it. If you sit back and let her pull five consecutive items and she gets a pretty good one (a Pitfall or a Spring), well, who do you have to blame? Of course, in preventing her from making items, you perhaps expose yourself which is what Jigglypuff really wanted. The quasi-randomness ensures that you never *really* know how important stopping any given Mystery Gift is so you can't game the system and only try to stop the ones that would make good items.

Peach players will recognize this. Peach's Turnips work similarly, but it should be noted that as an overall move Peach's Turnips are a million times more powerful than Mystery Gift. They create really interesting gameplay in the balancing act of how you go about stopping her from pulling them, and the positive of that greatly outweighs any inherent negatives of the randomness. There's no way they could be predictable and have all their good effects on the game as well; the fact that every pull is a potential threat but that a large number of pulls is still only going to produce a small number of threats (but with increasing certainty of a threat at all) is what we are looking for here.

By my count, the following other moves are also random: Luigi's Green Missile, Peach's fsmash, Diddy's Rocket Barrels (if knocked off him, they travel with a random path), King Dedede's Waddle Dee Toss, Olimar's Pikmin Pluck, Mr. Game & Watch's Judgment Hammer. The majority of the stages in the game also have some random effect that is gameplay relevant: Delfino Plaza, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island [Brawl], Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Port Town Aero Dive, WarioWare Inc., Distant Planet, Smashville, New Pork City, Skyworld?, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros., Flat Zone 2, PictoChat, Green Hill Zone, Jungle Japes, Onett, Corneria, Green Greens, Big Blue, Brinstar, and Pokemon Stadium 1. Some of the random effects are pretty small, but try me on any of them and I'll point them out! The amount of randomness already in the game should diminish our fear of randomness on principle.

I hope this explanation diminishes your concerns over what is honestly not a very significant mechanic for Jigglypuff.

---

To answer a potentially dangerous but seemingly innocently intentioned question directly before it gets out of hand...

The short version is that Balanced Brawl has a very clear design philosophy toward which it strives in a careful, conservative way with a big focus on polish and preventing hurting what is good in the game. That is not a description of Brawl+, and that makes the projects just about fundamentally incomparable. Otherwise, it is probably not very productive to have a discussion over the merits (or lack thereof) of Brawl+ as this topic is not about Brawl+. I will give you my utmost confidence that Balanced Brawl is not only the most balanced of the assorted Brawl mods but also the most balanced Smash Bros game ever so if you are simply seeking balance, Balanced Brawl is indeed designed to cater to you. We are confident that all 36 characters are competitive and not only that but competitive across a broad spectrum of 28 stages leading to 36,288 interesting and deep match-ups for you to explore. I think that actually beats out not just all the other smash games but also every other fighting game ever.
 

dansal

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Stages should really be considered as 'characters' imo, they all have their strengths, weaknesses, and quirks.
 

Last Elixir

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Popo f-tilt knockback extremely weaker.
Nana can no longer f-tilt, dash attacks instead.
This is the big ICs change: auto-desyncs on tilts. It's hard to describe how natural and perfect it feels, I need to get some clear videos up. In this case, the f-tilt dash attack combo is very safe for Popo and very risky for Nana. It's a combo in most cases, and the Nana dash attack normally links to Popo u-smash pretty easily.
I don't know if I am splitting hairs on an unnecessary thing here, but my Nana most certainly does ftilt and then also quickly runs forward and dash attacks. I assume that is how you intended things to work, because the whole thing still flows perfectly fine, but I wanted to make some mention of it in case that's not how you wanted things. Also, frequently if I am holding up as a match begins with the intention of my first move being a quick utilt so I can desync and get some ice cubes out, Nana will do her usmash instead of jumping. Both of these are pretty minor things, but I'd like to at least let ya know I'm playing them and seeing stuff! Also, the new Ice Climbers are amazing.
 

Thinkaman

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First of all I really love Balanced Brawl and feel that it is the most polished of all the smash mods. Also I was extremely glad that you finally fixed the Ice Climbers because they were the one character that bothered me in it. The only thing that I think should be changed is Jigglypuff's item taunt. the fact that it adds randomness to the game seems somewhat negative to me. Having a percent chance of pulling out an item that is actually too powerful to be able to pull all of the time just seems wrong. So instead of her pulling out random items, I think she should pull out a specific item that is more balanced (not really sure which item it should be).
It's not actually random. Jigglypuff will always pull out the same 10 items in a row, including smoke ball as every other item. It's an intentionally poor pseudo-random function seeded by the ones place of Jigglypuff's damage. Unlike Peach, Luigi, DDD, or G&W, Jigglypuff's "random" move will always do the exact same thing match-to-match. (All that matters is her current damage and how many items she has pulled.)

Edit: Some additional thoughts on Mystery Gift... Ampharos pretty much nailed it, the point of Mystery Gift isn't to be particularly powerful (as it's not, it's actually pretty risky) but to provide a much needed alternative option to chasing "team disjoint" while forcing an approach. Fake Rest combined with real Rest's new healing is the same idea.

Rest and taunt are both really, really long animations. This was a careful consideration, as it would be somewhat easy to accidentally make Jigglypuff a significantly stall-focused character.

I don't know if I am splitting hairs on an unnecessary thing here, but my Nana most certainly does ftilt and then also quickly runs forward and dash attacks. I assume that is how you intended things to work, because the whole thing still flows perfectly fine, but I wanted to make some mention of it in case that's not how you wanted things.
This is an animation "bug"; the way the action transition is set up, the initial frames of Nana f-tilt play before the dash attack starts. This ends up looking pretty good due to the transition happening on a particular frame that is pretty close to the opening frame of dash attack's animation.

The actual f-tilt, namely the hitboxes, do not happen.

Also, frequently if I am holding up as a match begins with the intention of my first move being a quick utilt so I can desync and get some ice cubes out, Nana will do her usmash instead of jumping. Both of these are pretty minor things, but I'd like to at least let ya know I'm playing them and seeing stuff! Also, the new Ice Climbers are amazing.
Hmm, that's a bit odd, probably just a nuance of the control input systems. Nana actually skips the pre-jump state when doing a u-tilt (resulting in her odd jump that is neither a SH nor a FH), which generally makes cancelling it into a u-smash impossible.
 

A2ZOMG

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Btw, I think I do want to test to see what multihit moves Bowser can Down-B out of, which as I recall has frame 1 super armor unless I read it wrong on PSA.

Like, even though it probably will look kinda stupid, I don't really have anything against him Down-Bing out of Mario's D-air, which I suspect is an example of a situation where he has that option, and probably needs it.

PTAD cars not killing is ridiculously awesome. The stage in the first place was pretty unique and interesting, so now there should be few to no complaints about it being a legit CP stage.

I'm probably going to end up being too lazy to do it myself, but I am REALLY curious to know how much frame advantage Link has for juggling after Jab2.

I am mildly disappointed to not see extra changes to Ganon such as on his D-smash 2nd hit or swapping damage between his D-tilt, Jab, and Flame Choke. Not to mention my suggested build for making Samus's U-smash hits link better or setting Snake's F-tilt1 meteor hit to bkb 80 and giving him back his old damage values on each F-tilt hitbox...but it's looking pretty good.
 

Thinkaman

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I will give you my utmost confidence that Balanced Brawl is not only the most balanced of the assorted Brawl mods but also the most balanced Smash Bros game ever so if you are simply seeking balance, Balanced Brawl is indeed designed to cater to you. We are confident that all 36 characters are competitive and not only that but competitive across a broad spectrum of 28 stages leading to 36,288 interesting and deep match-ups for you to explore. I think that actually beats out not just all the other smash games but also every other fighting game ever.
I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on these in a separate post.

I'm sort of a data nerd, and so I like making spreadsheets of things that I find interesting such as game balance. It's interesting to look at matchup-based game balance qualitatively, especially since it's sort of an abstract idea that has no default interpretation. I favor looking at standard deviation of the entire set or practical subsets.

This approach has a few implications. For one, it favors larger rosters for sufficiently well-balanced games, due to the combinatoric implications of having a bell-curve. Basically, even if a higher % of a smaller roster is automatically perfect 5:5 ditto matchups, this is eclipsed by the larger roster having a significantly smaller (in %) number of outliers which thus have an exponentially smaller impact on the overall standard deviation. In other words, MK and Ganon don't have much of an impact on Brawl's typical matchups, because they are just two out of 36 characters.

By the numbers, Brawl is a very well balanced game for this reason; it has a massive roster distributed mostly in a typical bell-curve. The only fighting games I have data on that are more balanced than Brawl is actually SF4 (any version) and GG:AC (maybe other GGs, I only have detailed data for AC).

Random trivia: MK's standard matchup deviation in Brawl is almost precisely identical to Sagat's in non-super SF4. *shrug*

I don't have hard data for Super SF4 yet, and obviously Arcade might be improved even further, but otherwise GG:AC is historically the most balanced fighting game statistically. It's standard deviation is about 46% of Brawl's. A little math tells us that to match this as its current pattern of distribution, Brawl's matchups would have to be compressed to about 68% of its original magnitude, which in character terms is about 24-27 characters depending on how your data is calculating Zelda/Sheik and PT.

Most tier lists players submitted in review of BBrawl 2 showed a compression to 5-10 standard Brawl characters. Personally, I think it's about 7: Diddy <-> Pikachu. Every BBrawl character, considered as a set of matchups, should sit pretty concisely in the lower half of top tier or very top of high tier in a standard Brawl environment as labeled by the latest BBR listings.

tl;dr - When we say balanced, we're talking some pretty serious business.
 

Last Elixir

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This is an animation "bug"; the way the action transition is set up, the initial frames of Nana f-tilt play before the dash attack starts. This ends up looking pretty good due to the transition happening on a particular frame that is pretty close to the opening frame of dash attack's animation.

The actual f-tilt, namely the hitboxes, do not happen.
Cool. I hadn't noticed that bit. =P Shoulda been paying more attention to that!

Hmm, that's a bit odd, probably just a nuance of the control input systems. Nana actually skips the pre-jump state when doing a u-tilt (resulting in her odd jump that is neither a SH nor a FH), which generally makes cancelling it into a u-smash impossible.
I see. Also, I have noticed that, while I have a lot of difficulty pulling it off consistently, or using it to my advantage when I can, that if I can make Nana start doing something with a long animation while desynced (blizzard, charging a smash, etc.) that if Popo is able to walk around, that he can drag Nana along with him even though she shouldn't be able to move. This is most easily replicated by performing an utilt and then telling Nana to use blizzard, then simply walking forward with Popo, but also I also wonder if someone more talented with IC than I am could start dragging Nana around while she charges smashes at people?
 

Thinkaman

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Btw, I think I do want to test to see what multihit moves Bowser can Down-B out of, which as I recall has frame 1 super armor unless I read it wrong on PSA.

Like, even though it probably will look kinda stupid, I don't really have anything against him Down-Bing out of Mario's D-air, which I suspect is an example of a situation where he has that option, and probably needs it.
I *think* the dair tweak Mario just got should prevent this. I'll look into this topic in general though, and get a full list.

PTAD cars not killing is ridiculously awesome. The stage in the first place was pretty unique and interesting, so now there should be few to no complaints about it being a legit CP stage.
It's a pretty polarizing stage, but so is Norfair and lots of others. It's sort of like Delfino's evil cousin.

I'm probably going to end up being too lazy to do it myself, but I am REALLY curious to know how much frame advantage Link has for juggling after Jab2.
Intuition and experience says it's not changed much beyond being made consistent, probably very slightly in his favor on average? Except for Samus and somewhat Charizard, none of the jab tweaks should have a non-trivial effect on matchups, unless those matchups take place in Super Sudden Death brawl...

I am mildly disappointed to not see extra changes to Ganon such as on his D-smash 2nd hit or swapping damage between his D-tilt, Jab, and Flame Choke. Not to mention my suggested build for making Samus's U-smash hits link better or setting Snake's F-tilt1 meteor hit to bkb 80 and giving him back his old damage values on each F-tilt hitbox...but it's looking pretty good.
-I looked a lot into Ganon and had test copies with different choke numbers going around. Ultimately, testing and practice favored the original--especially because the Lucario and Bowser matchups threaten to be negative outliers under a lot of alternatives that Ganon would favor. (Yeah, we are genuinely worried about Ganon becoming too good in some matchups, crazy ain't it.) I wouldn't be super opposed to some small tweaks, like moving a point from d-tilt to choke or making Samus (and just Samus) have a one-frame longer bounce animation, but that's about it. The manner in which Ganon's choke advantage is distributed among his matchups is frankly pretty convenient.

-I actually got a lot of funky edge case behavior with the Samus file you sent me, particularly when people ran into it from behind. I might do some experiments on it with various angles though.

-I discussed Snake with you previously; I'm still not seeing strong(er) grounded f-tilt 2 as desirable target behavior. I'd agree that's it's an elegant way to meet this goal, but not that it's a good goal to have in the first place.
 

Thinkaman

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I see. Also, I have noticed that, while I have a lot of difficulty pulling it off consistently, or using it to my advantage when I can, that if I can make Nana start doing something with a long animation while desynced (blizzard, charging a smash, etc.) that if Popo is able to walk around, that he can drag Nana along with him even though she shouldn't be able to move. This is most easily replicated by performing an utilt and then telling Nana to use blizzard, then simply walking forward with Popo, but also I also wonder if someone more talented with IC than I am could start dragging Nana around while she charges smashes at people?
This is pretty standard Nana behavior. Perhaps it can be exploited better now that we have more consistent/accessible desyncs?
 

KingJacob

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Between Amazing Ampharos and Thinkaman both helping to explain the mystery gift action I am far less concerned about the addition of the mystery gift. Also I was wondering if you have completely given up on updating the Balanced Brawl Dojo? I definitely liked how it provided compiled lists of all the changes to characters with the most important changes in the forefront.
 

Thinkaman

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Between Amazing Ampharos and Thinkaman both helping to explain the mystery gift action I am far less concerned about the addition of the mystery gift. Also I was wondering if you have completely given up on updating the Balanced Brawl Dojo? I definitely liked how it provided compiled lists of all the changes to characters with the most important changes in the forefront.
When we finalize the BBrawl3 release, I'll update accordingly.
 

Rainierman

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About some of the recent discussion...

That ledge on Onett was really awkward in Melee. The developers were wise to remove it in Brawl. There's only one place I can think of a ledge in Temple that would make sense to only exist in Melee (by the lowest platform but a part of the main ground?), but a ledge isn't needed there at all since in a game in which grabbing ledges backward exists, you can just grab the lower ledge. In fact, what the ledge does is limit your mobility jumping around down there. Temple isn't a serious stage in any case, and including a fairly sizable STGDXSHRINE.PAC file in the download to alter it (not even really improve) doesn't seem prudent. It's especially not prudent when you consider "it was that way in Melee" isn't something we take as justification in this project in general. It's more like "if Melee didn't exist, would that change improve Brawl?". That led us to a small number of Melee-inspired changes (our take on Mario is probably the most clear example), but mostly it led us in a different direction than Melee since Brawl is different and all.
Ahhh! So that's why it doesn't have them! Figures! :D I can play in those stages in peace now.

You know, as much as I like Brawl and BBrawl, I was kinda worried about how the changes to Ice Climbers sounded too radical. But from reading the list of changes, they all actually look really sensitive. You never cease to surprise me. Even when changing seemingly so much, it still all remains faithful to the project's goals.

And I'll definitely input later these weeks on the Stages. :D I look forward to them (especially Port Town).



Edit: Oh yeah, btw, something I always forget to bring up:

Dimensional Cape Cancel: Meta Knight can cancel his Dimensional Cape at any time by flicking the c-stick. This strike is more powerful than the old Dimensional Cape attack.
Any chance of an alternative to C-Stick so all control schemes can use this? I'm not sure if just doing a Smash attack works the same, but at the very least, the phrasing in the article could be changed.
 
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