Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[Fej]

By the way, does the Brawl logo actually change when Balanced Brawl works? If not, is there any definitive way I know I'm running BBrawl?

 

[Igni3]

If the logo doesn't change, then you aren't running Balanced Brawl.

I commend you to make a copy in a DVD, or download a DVD5 ISO if your Wii doesn't read DVD9 disks (that happened to me).

Then you run it with Gecko OS, is the best way

About USB Loader GX, do you have Ocarina activated and a NTSC copy of the game?

Remember Balanced Brawl 3 comes with default folder for Gecko, try to make a folder called 'codes' in the root SD, and put the GCT file there

 

[Last Elixir]

By the way, does the Brawl logo actually change when Balanced Brawl works? If not, is there any definitive way I know I'm running BBrawl?

It should be changing, yeah. Otherwise you can check by trying one of the special abilities that were given to a character.

 

[Rainierman]

Also, FYI, I'm rather fond of this stage, and if you're curious about some of the gameplay I've mapped out on it, I'd be happy to go into details.

Well I would be thrilled . And btw, I'm pretty content with both what you have done with Port Town and what you haven't done to Spear Pillar in this last revision. And about Port Town, everybody I play it with doesn't hate it anymore.

 

[Igni3]

I have some suggestions, I'm trying to study the game =P

1) If you can, make Ness and Lucas don't fall, or fall slower when using Up-B.

2) Make Mario's Down-B charge faster, or use it faster.

3) Make Mario's Up-B final hit do a bit more damage.

4) Make Yoshi's Neutral B do a bit more damage, or/and change the angle.

EDIT: What is SDI multiplier?

 

[Last Elixir]

I have some suggestions, I'm trying to study the game =P

1) If you can, make Ness and Lucas don't fall, or fall slower when using Up-B.

2) Make Mario's Down-B charge faster, or use it faster.

3) Make Mario's Up-B final hit do a bit more damage.

4) Make Yoshi's Neutral B do a bit more damage, or/and change the angle.

EDIT: What is SDI multiplier?

Ness/Lucas already have their aerial momentum change when they initiate they recovery move, and it's not too hard to hit yourself after a tiny bit of practice! Also, Yoshi's B is good as it is for setting up into another attack, so it's pretty fine where it is. I'm not very well-versed with Mario, so I cannot really comment on him, but feel like he isn't really lacking where he is either.

 

[Igni3]

Oh.

About Ness and Lucas Up-B.
In some stages, is really hard to use it x_x.
But, I saw you're a Lucas main, so, I'll trust in you.

Hmm, that suggestions are for the moves I think are a bit useless in Brawl, I found another movements players never use, so, I have other suggestions.

1) Make Luigi's Cyclone final hit does a bit more damage.

2) Make Link's Bombs does a bit more damage, or IDK, change a bit the angle =P.

I'm trying to investigate the game to find X-B useless or a bit useless.

Do you use Link's bombs in a match, or Luigi's Cyclone?

If you use it, they're useful?

Some questions, I still have to say I'm very noob...

 

[Sleek Media]

By any chance, is Mario's stupid extra landing lag from sweet spotting the upB gone? I haven't played this in a while, but that would be my very biased suggestion!

 

[Last Elixir]

Oh.

About Ness and Lucas Up-B.
In some stages, is really hard to use it x_x.
But, I saw you're a Lucas main, so, I'll trust in you.

Hmm, that suggestions are for the moves I think are a bit useless in Brawl, I found another movements players never use, so, I have other suggestions.

1) Make Luigi's Cyclone final hit does a bit more damage.

2) Make Link's Bombs does a bit more damage, or IDK, change a bit the angle =P.

I'm trying to investigate the game to find X-B useless or a bit useless.

Do you use Link's bombs in a match, or Luigi's Cyclone?

If you use it, they're useful?

Some questions, I still have to say I'm very noob...

I use Luigi's cyclone all of the time, it's a fantastic move for getting in, poking the enemy, and then getting back out while being relatively annoying to punish without projectiles, also it's a fantastic augment to his offstage recovery.

Link's bombs are pretty situational I feel, they are damaging enough that the enemy wants to endeavor to not get hit by them, if I am knocked offstage and upwards I'll chuck a bomb back at the stage, otherwise I do a lot of tossing them straight up so they'll land a moment later and keep the other player on their toes.

(Also, if you are having trouble recovering with Lucas keep in mind that you can shoot PK fire away from the stage and quickly put up your PSI magnet afterwards to get pushed back to the stage rather quickly!)

 

[prOAPC]

i main Lucas too, don't change anything from his upB

 

[Sleek Media]

So uh, the stored lag for Mario? Marth got rid of his...

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, it's gone.

 

[Sleek Media]

Mario is pleased.

 

[Last Elixir]

I found an obscure bug with BBrawl Link that is easy to replicate but quite difficult to lose a stock to in any sort of real match.

If Link uses his recovery in midair and fails to grab anything with his hookshot, he goes into special fall. If you are hit out of this special fall you can (obviously) act again, including retrying your recovery+hookshot. However if you are hit out of special fall after having failed to grab anything with your hookshot and then just try firing your hookshot to attempt a Zair or some such, you will go into special fall.

I had to be on New Pork City to even find out that such a thing were possible, so I think it won't lead to any frustrating deaths or anything, but messing around with the game and finding out stuff like this is fun anyway!

 

[Igni3]

What about Pit's infinite Angel Ring near a wall?

 

[MonkUnit]

Can't you SDI up and jump out?

 

[Jack Kieser]

To the extent of my knowledge, yes, you can.

 

[Soldner Kei]

Oh.

2) Make Link's Bombs does a bit more damage, or IDK, change a bit the angle =P.

Link's bombs are fine, and you have to use them to rack up damage, that way your killing moves are fresh when you need them, I mean they are used a lot... JC thrown bombs, bombsliding, bombsmashing, they go through some attacks and can stage spike too, not so often, but still works, all Link projectiles are useful just gotta know how to use them

 

[sinistersnakesennin]

Can somebody give me a definitive answer on whats been changed in the Pokemon's FitMotion.pacs?

 

[Blue Warrior]

You guys are making a couple more changes to Bowser, right?

Just out of curiosity, how much would a little bit of passive flinch resistance help the character's performance? Bowser always seemed to me like the kind of character who should be able to tank some scratches, but he's more of a punching bag than anything since it just takes a light jab to upset his slow attacks. He has Up+B, but it'd be nice if the rest of Bowser's moveset saw a little more prominence, and some flinch resistance just seemed like it would suit him character-wise and in terms of his current drawbacks.

 

[Last Elixir]

You guys are making a couple more changes to Bowser, right?

Just out of curiosity, how much would a little bit of passive flinch resistance help the character's performance? Bowser always seemed to me like the kind of character who should be able to tank some scratches, but he's more of a punching bag than anything since it just takes a light jab to upset his slow attacks. He has Up+B, but it'd be nice if the rest of Bowser's moveset saw a little more prominence, and some flinch resistance just seemed like it would suit him character-wise and in terms of his current drawbacks.

I think that putting any amount of innate super armor on any character would just be the most absurd idea and make it really easy to simply render them over powered because of how easy of a time they'd have getting off their really hard hitting attacks against anyone but the fastest characters.

 

[King Luigi 128]

Can somebody give me a definitive answer on whats been changed in the Pokemon's FitMotion.pacs?

I'm curious, why ask about those files specifically?
..I'm pretty sure they didn't change anything in them though.

I believe their FitMotion's (& costume pac/pcs's) were included to
help cut down on their loading time when switching between them.
(The same is also true for Zelda/Sheik & Zero Suit Samus.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bowser Bomber having SA on his initial frames is not overpowered, the hitbox comes slowly and in straight line. Only affects when you space poorly a juggle or follow-up, or Bowser reads a very slow attack. In any of these, getting Bomber'ed was well deserved.

Also, the FitMotion affects the timings and overall properties of the stages. iirc, they changed nothing.

 

[standardtoaster]

In my opinion, it would be a good idea to make the meteor cancel frame the same for all characters. This would be a relatively large help for wolf. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307336

 

[Igni3]

I don't know how you discover those things o.o .

Well, I have a question, based on Tier List v6, I saw BBrawl CAN be based on Tier List v5, which, Snake is on spot 2, and Diddy Kong in 3, now, they made a swap, and Diddy Kong is in spot 2, so, my question is, do you think Diddy Kong is a bit overpowered now?

I'm very bad in this game, so I make the question before make stupid conclutions ^^

 

[ぱみゅ]

Diddy got there because his even Match-up against MetaKnight and the fact that the amount of people who plays him increased (along with the given starter stagelist, imo).

Also, BBrawl needs more people to play it in order to discover which characters may or not be too strong.

 

[UltimateRazer]

Gnes really wants to get this! I'll train hard with him and put vids up of our progress.

 

[ぱみゅ]

^that's good to hear Razer!
having input coming from players of your category would be very benefical for the game's goals.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We did not base our changes off BBR tier lists for several reasons:

1. We presume different rules (particularly stage rules) than the Unity ruleset. This is a really critical point for certain characters, and the subtle value difference between Diddy Kong and Snake probably boils down into this (a more diverse stage list probably favors Snake as opposed to Diddy Kong, especially in the BBrawl world wherein Diddy Kong doesn't get wall and walk-off abuses with his banana locks).
2. Changes to any character ripple across the whole metagame. For instance, Jigglypuff's best high tier match-up is probably Diddy Kong. In standard Brawl, this doesn't really matter too much to Diddy Kong's worth since Jigglypuff is quite bad and pretty rarely used. However, if Jigglypuff is suddenly more viable, Diddy Kong gets relatively worse whereas characters who naturally have strong advantages against Jigglypuff (i.e. Mr. Game & Watch) get relatively better. This is actually a really complex web, and it turns out that not only are various weaker characters weak for different reasons (like it's much easier to make Mario good than Samus good even though in standard Brawl they're probably somewhat close to the same value), but the way you change characters can be critical as well. There's more than one way to buff Ganon for instance, and our way will definitely have different metagame implications than theoretical other possibilities.
3. You have to consider our goal. Every character being equal is impossible without mass homogenization and we don't seek it. What we seek is the maximum viable diversity. We want every character to be a viable choice, and we want no match-up to be unwinnable. As a side-goal, we also seek to remove degenerate gameplay elements whereever possible (things like planking). This has to be true while ensuring that every character retains a unique playstyle (luckily standard Brawl is pretty good about this so we didn't have to get super creative with many characters).
4. The BBR tier list does not change the game. Diddy Kong didn't get "better" since the previous list; the community's understanding of Diddy Kong evolved. While we generally have valuations to the BBR tier listings that are in the ballpark, we've never quite fully agreed, and even if we can argue about who is most qualified to evaluate character worth, ultimately we have to make changes based off why the game works like it does not just based on the way the game is itself so we have to rely on our own valuation skills and not those of the BBR. It's not to say that we're not informed by the community at large so much as it is to say that good design necessitates that the buck for balance considerations has to stop at the developers and not the players, and we're the developers of BBrawl.
5. Universal changes we implemented to Brawl are small but real and sometimes non-trivial. The fact that in BBrawl hanging out on a ledge is always unsustainable alone changes tons of match-ups. Combined with everything else, it means that we really have to design around a different metagame even if it's a metagame that seeks to retain all the core aspects of Brawl. Developments in the standard Brawl metagame are of somewhat less consequence than they might seem because of this.

Of course, hearing about strong players checking BBrawl out is always fun since, at the end of the day, we're two guys looking to balance 18,648 real match-ups (666 character-character match-ups across 28 stages), and while we discussed a pretty ridiculous number of them internally (we have definitely at some point in development discussed at least 400 different character-character match-ups including some at great length that aren't prevalent in standard Brawl like Samus v Ganon and frequently considered at least 10 different possible stages usually intentionally picking outliers like Norfair and FD that tend to represent the extremes of match-ups), obviously there were limits to how much we could possibly discover. I look forward to seeing developments on that front.

 

[Igni3]

I like when you answer.
I know how hard is making a game balanced, in fact, I tried with a game before, (it was a private server of a MMORPG, balancing that game wasn't that hard, but I failed with 1 thing, after all, I can't discuss about balancing D=).
Have you played DotA?
That game is still making changes, mostly related to balance stuffs, I think, making a game with a lot of diversity and versatility like Brawl balanced, is the step with more duration, I NEVER saw a game with a lot of diversity and differences between characters being fully balanced after the first release, it's almost impossible.

Diddy Kong didn't get "better" since the previous list

Why did you post it?, I mean, for making Diddy Kong get better, you need to make changes in Brawl, it's pretty obvious, or are you trying to tell something more?
I think a good objective (not a main one) is to make every character have at least 2 effective ways of play, I don't know if Balanced Brawl has somewhat like this, but it looks like it has =)
I love Balanced Brawl global changes, removing random tripping, infinite things, and the stalling thing it's pretty awesome and I think I wouldn't play Brawl often if Balanced Brawl never appeared.
So, in your balance context, Wario and Marth are better than Diddy Kong?

With your last comment, are you waiting new discovers? =O
I think I didn't understand your post fully (I don't understand english very well and it's hard to me to understand things, hahaha).

A noob opinion, I hope this is a collaboration XD

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure he meant that Diddy Kong (and no character for that matter) has changed since BBrawl was created.
Their matchups still the same, their strenghts and weaknesses are just the same as always.

BBR Tier list shows character development and potential success rate, Snake dropped since he's been demonstrated to be beaten more often by Metaknight (the best, and most played character in the game) than Diddy Kong, so, basically, Diddy has more "opportunities" of winning a tournament than Snake.
There's so many implications on Tiers Positions... I personally don't think to hard of them...

In any case, BBrawl is built via match-ups, so Tier Positions does not matter at all on this project's goals.

And finally, any new discover (about game mechanics, matchups or bugs/glitches) are useful to try to figure how it works.

About stage viability, there are so many characters and styles among them that stage changes will make a much deeper and complex game, more enjoyable to watch, more difficult to play and compete, and most importantly, more satisfactory to win.



Igni3, te invito a entrar a esta página: http://www.smashbrosla.com/comunidad/index.php?/topic/197-balanced-brawl-thread-on-smash-bros-la/

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, I meant that the game itself didn't change because the BBR posted a tier list since the tier list reflects a combination of popular opinion and community knowledge and is not the same thing as describing what the game actually is (and standard Brawl hasn't changed since it released). I suppose I generally have to apoligize to non-native English speakers since my vocabulary and complex sentence structures probably make my posts absolute nightmares for you guys. I could say more, but I don't want to add extra confusion so I'll limit myself to saying that, yeah, it's more about match-ups than anything else.

 

[standardtoaster]

Is wolf still going to keep his poor meteor cancel timing? (60 frames)

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm planning on doing some testing this weekend. I'll give you some feedback on what we find.

 

[Last Elixir]

Yo AA what are you doing with Bowser's Fire Breath and when can I see it? New Bowser is wicked fun to play!

 

[LinkNinjaMaster]

I want to play on my Custom Stages

How can I play on my custom stages?? I am using The Homebrew Channel to launch BalancedBrawl, so I don't use the SmashStack method, and so my game wouldn't crash if it loaded the Custom Stages screen. But, it's disabled by the BBrawl code, right? So, I wanted to know: Does it exist a "modified" code without the Custom Stages screen disabled, or how can I modify the original myself, or is that even possible? I know (or at least I suspect) that playing on custom stages is not that "balanced" and would somewhat defeat the purpose of the BBrawl project, but although I'm not a casual player, neither I am a competitive player, I just play for fun, but I'm not-so-bad, I like to customize things (a LOT) and I like the mods in BBrawl. So, is there a way in which I can enable the custom stages on BalancedBrawl??

 

[King Luigi 128]

I'm using the Homebrew Channel to launch Balanced Brawl, since I don't use the Smash Stack method [...]
is there a way in which I can enable the custom stages on Balanced Brawl?

Well if you really are in the US (as your info suggests) then this should be easy:

1. Download this program to your computer.
2. Save this file somewhere you'll remember.
   (Right-click the link, then 'save-as'.)
3. Open said file in that program & select what you want.
   (As long as the "Disable Custom Stages" code isn't checked you're fine.)
4. Save your new file & copy it over the original 1 on your SD Card.
   (Be sure it keeps the same name though: "RSBE01.gct".)
5. Go into your SD Card then find/delete this specific file:
   "/private/wii/app/RSBE/st/st_080805_0933.bin"
   (That's "Smash Stack", you aren't using it so it's best to remove it.)
6. ??????
7. PROFIT!

That should cover things, so enjoy!

 

[LinkNinjaMaster]

Thank you King Luigi

Erhm, Mexico, but yes, my game is the US one. Thanks, I'll check it out. I actually just play with my neighbors and my cousin, and aside from them I have only played with other people at comic expos. Won to one, beaten by two (well, actually beaten by one, TRASHED by another). That guy just lost a life to me, he was, like, a robot (and using Meta Knight btw, character that I've learned is a tiny bit overused :S). He didn't even shake hands with me, thing that the other two did. Well, I suppose this is no place to rant, so I'll stop here. n_n Anyway, thank you!!

 

[ぱみゅ]

@LinkNinjaMaster:
1. ¿De qué parte de México eres?
2. ¡Qué bueno que te guste BBrawl! Estoy tratando de impulsarlo y hacer que gane popularidad en las más partes que pueda, y tu ayuda, aunque parezca pequeña, es muy importante.
3. Si aún tienes alguna duda sobre los Custom Stages, no dudes en mandarme un PM.


@Everyone else, sorry for talking in spanish, I just thought it would be easier. =P

 

[NoAh MenQui]

No manches wey XD

N E ways

AA: I discovered a way to make grabs techable in terms like in other fighting games

Example --> if you try to grab me, and I input the grab Tech Command, both character go to the grab release animation. Or can allow grabber to release animation and defentant to roll back or forward, dependibg on the situation

It's out of what smash is as, this is used in other competitive fighting games, and xmash don't have it, but I see how this can bring tons of Standard Brawl Match ups

DDD can still chain grab people or infinite them, but the opponent now has a choice to pay attention and tech the opponents grab/throw

Lucas and Ness no longer would be infinite grab released with such a code

I got the PSA command, I just need a fighter.pac injection of such code

Just wanted to let you know of my testings with this in Standard Brawl, Changes the grab game alot and some characters do stand a chance against old match ups