Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Ussi]

yea Pika's dthrow still ***** the **** out of spacies still just now it takes more than one grab a stock XD

 

[G.D.]

pikachu says hi to fox ever getting dominance

Ignoring your obnoxious attitude there, how so? Fox can generally shine out of dthrow, and most of Pika's other combos on Fox can me matched with similarly-powerful combos.

Certainly a poor matchup for Fox regardless, but I don't see it as something that completely breaks him in BB.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

in vbrawl pikachu has a gauranteed cg to 100 that fox cannot shine out of. in bbrawl the matchup will actually be somewhat in fox's favor

 

[Ussi]

I still believe Pikachu has the advantage over Fox in BBrawl. Slight but still there. I base this off since I believe Pikachu has the advantage even without the CG in vBrawl.

 

[Big O]

I'd just like to bring up something about Ganon's Dtilt. At high %'s it pushes them way too far away to follow up on at all or just pushes them offstage. Is this intentional?

Also I think A2Z's dash attack buff would be pretty cool. Reversing the pushback on block for the initial hit for the dash attack and the second hit of his Dsmash would be pretty subtle changes and the former would be pretty useful.

Sonic's Usmash still doesn't fully connect at high %'s sometimes. I think the main problem is the initial hit sends them too high at high %'s.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i actually believe that fox 60-40's pikachu without the cg, fox cam move faster then pikachu, combo us pretty well, and kill us rediculously early

 

[Ussi]

i actually believe that fox 60-40's pikachu without the cg, fox cam move faster then pikachu, combo us pretty well, and kill us rediculously early

We still can combo him well, especially out of dthrow and we have more priority. also dash usmash is As avoidable as ours. You can SDI out of dair to not even get hit by utilt.

 

[Ambu(ECNAL)]

Balanced Brawl is ok on the long scale of brawl division, but as a side note on the stages its abit on the opposite, which can give others the idea of stage spiking.
If you say falco needs his CG, your right but only for certain match ups I suppose
Well in my point I'm going to just summerize saying its fair on termed agreements moreover.

 

[Thinkaman]

It feels like everyone has simply become better, is all. Balanced Brawl is pretty balanced--the entire roster could fit entirely into merely two tiers of vBrawl, I think

This is high praise! Thanks!

On that list, Yoshi...Samus....Wolf all belong in upper-mid, while Mario needs to be higher in mid

Good crack at your first list but you've got several glaring flaws.

Alright, this discussion has been excellent, but I do wanna throw out there that opinions are varying (especially with the characters this close!) and it takes some courage to post a comprehensive set of them for public scrutiny. (I'd feel terrible if I keep asking for tier lists and when a few people finally post some they get jumped on.) We've done a pretty decent job of keeping this debate reasonable, which I am sure will continue since everyone here is leveled headed and friendly.

Let's continue to keep things awesome and moving forward! Excellent discussion so far.

How good is Bowser's fsmash? (youtube is buddy for me atm cause i'm uploading too much <_< name changes might happen)

Anyone have additional thoughts on this? I think it's kinda funny personally, especially on Marth. It *is* Bowser f-smash we're talking about here...

Ganon's two slowiest moves (Warlock Punch and Uptilt) should be slightly changed. If Uptilt were cancelable anytimes with any action, it would give Ganon more nice options with it (including the winddamage). Warlock Punch seems to be a "dead" topic, cause this move can't be balanced... or is there any chance? In Balanced Brawl nothing has to be broken, but every move shoud be useful...I see no use in Warlock Punch...even after all the other changes... try to make some fun offstage with an "edge-double-jump reversed Warlock Punch"

All attempts to make u-tilt cool and interesting turned out pretty lame--like many moves, Ganon u-tilt had a lot of experiments on my end that yielded less than amazing results. Most changes were useless, and many others were wonky and possibly too powerful, like most canceling. The only thing I think might fit is cancel-to-shield, which I don't think is necessary.

jiggly's rest will never be useful either and you don't see it getting buffed now. :/ BBrawl's goal is to make all characters viable.

Right, internal character is not a concern. It's okay for characters to have moves that are fundamentally more important to them, it's okay to have moves that are more situational, and it's even okay to have moves that are simply flawed. There's no point even trying to salvage say Sing.

Here's my idea of how it should "sort-of" look.

BBrawl Readiness List:
Ready for Standard Release:
Upper
Marth
Diddy Kong
Falco
Snake
Meta Knight
Ice Climbers
Wario
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik/ Zelda
Non-Upper
Pikachu
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
R.O.B.
Fox
Luigi
Wolf
Samus
Mario
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Pit
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus

Tiny to Small Buffs:
Link
King Dedede
Pokémon Trainer
Jigglypuff
Falcon
Ness

Bigger Buffs:
Sonic
Bowser
Lucas
Ike
Ganondorf

Thanks for the opinions!

Now the part where I reward you by flinging my own opinions back at you! I'm pretty surprised by your positioning of Link, DDD, PT, Falcon, Lucas, and Ganondorf.

I'd just like to bring up something about Ganon's Dtilt. At high %'s it pushes them way too far away to follow up on at all or just pushes them offstage. Is this intentional?

I'll look into this, thanks.

Sonic's Usmash still doesn't fully connect at high %'s sometimes. I think the main problem is the initial hit sends them too high at high %'s.

And this.

I still believe Pikachu has the advantage over Fox in BBrawl. Slight but still there. I base this off since I believe Pikachu has the advantage even without the CG in vBrawl.

i actually believe that fox 60-40's pikachu without the cg, fox cam move faster then pikachu, combo us pretty well, and kill us rediculously early

I think I'm going to side with Pikachu on this one--it's close though.

 

[Ussi]

the only characters Ike will possible have trouble with are: Marth, Lucario (prob 57:43) and Olimar (possible worse than 60:40 simply due to nature of chars but not as ridiculous as before)

other than that Quickdraw handles getting gimped so easily so Ike works like he did in vBrawl besides against . He might be on the lower end but that's a character design flaw in the end.

I firmly believe Ike can work around all the characters here.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, i dont see Ike being ***** anymore by certain MUs, lower half of the cast sure, but not garbage.

Also: got the vids ready, Ussi?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser's F-smash is fine. Just don't be an idiot and it will never hit you anyway, and it's heavily punishable on block and in fact powershieldable on reaction. I don't think Marth or Ike's counters need to be changed just because of one hilarious gimmick use for Bowser's F-smash.

Ike's matchups...Here's the ones that I'm pretty sure are 6/4 or worse.

vs Olimar sucks a lot.

vs MK also sucks a lot, although it simply just takes longer for MK to kill. He gimps Ike easily still though, and Ike really isn't allowed to do anything onstage safely. Jumping is basically asking to get ***** in most situations due to MK's ridiculous movement options, and hitting MK's shield is always easily punished.

Vs Mario is pretty terrible for Ike, as he camps Ike, combos him, and kills him pretty early.

Yoshi probably destroys Ike. Ike is forced to shieldcamp a lot to create openings onstage and huge shield damage on all aerials means Ike can do nothing safe against this really mobile character. Yoshi also camps, and his buffed D-smash is easy to land out of spotdodge.

Falco is still probably ridiculously terrible for Ike (it's completely unwinnable in vBrawl keep in mind). Ike's approach is completely shut down by lasers, and Falco scores the kill much more easily with D-throw -> DACUS.

Wolf beats Ike handily. He's just simply a way better character at everything, and he has a laser to stop Ike from approaching. Ike doesn't have anything gay on Wolf to mess him up, so basically Ike has no real advantages against Wolf.

Link and Samus are ridiculously terrible for Ike for the same reasons. They camp him, and can shieldgrab him out of every approach, AND they can outspace him. To make things even worse, they can actually kill him easily as well with safe/reliable moves, while Ike really doesn't have much going for him otherwise. Ike's N-air buff really doesn't help him against those characters in any way, since Z-air spacing basically prohibits jumps.

Snake still destroys Ike the same way he did before with superior closeup options. It just takes longer for him to kill Ike with his safe and massive U-tilt, but he still controls the **** out of Ike and tilts him to death.

Sheik does stuff that MK and Snake do to Ike, and manages to own him with godly stage control options and broken close up options and combos into dumb stuff.

Fox does stuff like Sheik to a smaller scale, in that he can run away and stage control all day against Ike. Only he can kill Ike early for whiffing something.

Seriously...Ike is just horrible. And Ganon probably beats him slightly.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, Bowser can hit Ike out of Counter but not Marth. (And certainly not Lucario, but that's a bit different.) This definitely sets off alarm bells for me.

 

[Linkshot]

It sounds perfect to me. It's Bowser's fSmash. You're taking a huge risk if you're going to stay close to him during it.

 

[JOE!]

Thinka, it's really not that big of a concern...due to the fact you have to predict a counter in fsmash range, and at the right time

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it could be a bit to polarising for ike, though i dunno the ike/bowser matchup, i assume its pretty close before this. after it could be a bit too much, though i would question how good it is vs counter if an ike is smart enough to not spam counter

 

[A2ZOMG]

In Ike's case, you should just space counter so that it only takes the last hit, since that is the one that does the most damage anyway. Otherwise just shield and F-air out of shield.

Did Ike's counter get a damage buff? I do think it should get one anyhow since a 1.2 multiplier really doesn't do justice for how situational it is.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's not a balance question as it is a case of "This is wonky; somewhere an Ike player is going to be surprised and upset by this."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh, well then the simple solution for that is arbitrarily adding in a few more invul frames to deal with that.

 

[JOE!]

In Ike's case, you should just space counter so that it only takes the last hit, since that is the one that does the most damage anyway. Otherwise just shield and F-air out of shield.

Did Ike's counter get a damage buff? I do think it should get one anyhow since a 1.2 multiplier really doesn't do justice for how situational it is.

well, that may work on paper, but it has to do with one out-predicting the other...

 

[Eldiran]

It's not a balance question as it is a case of "This is wonky; somewhere an Ike player is going to be surprised and upset by this."

Surely this is only a natural result of the move having Super Armor? I can't imagine that it would be any different if Ike countered a vBrawl Bowser f-smash while Bowser had spawn invincibility.

 

[Ussi]

Bowser's F-smash is fine. Just don't be an idiot and it will never hit you anyway, and it's heavily punishable on block and in fact powershieldable on reaction. I don't think Marth or Ike's counters need to be changed just because of one hilarious gimmick use for Bowser's F-smash.

Ike's matchups...Here's the ones that I'm pretty sure are 6/4 or worse.

vs Olimar sucks a lot. longer for MK to kill.

Only thing I agree with

vs MK also sucks a lot, although it simply just takes onstage safely. He gimps Ike easily still though, and Ike really isn't allowed to do anything Jumping is basically asking to get ***** in most situations due to MK's ridiculous movement options, and hitting MK's shield is always easily punished

Ike's only problem with MK was how easy he got gimped. He can actually handle the stage vs MK fairly well, nado, dsmash, and Up B were Ike's 3 biggest bane which have all been taken care off. MK is manageable now. MK may have the edge but Ike isn't going down without a fight

Vs Mario is pretty terrible for Ike, as he camps Ike, combos him, and kills him pretty early.

Mario still has his range disadvantage which will prevent the MU from ever being a total lose to Ike

Yoshi probably destroys Ike. Ike is forced to shieldcamp a lot to create openings onstage and huge shield damage on all aerials means Ike can do nothing safe against this really mobile character. Yoshi also camps, and his buffed D-smash is easy to land out of spotdodge.

Ike has range to prevent losing this MU, watch my videos against JOE's Yoshi, granted wifi but only thing we got

Falco is still probably ridiculously terrible for Ike (it's completely unwinnable in vBrawl keep in mind). Ike's approach is completely shut down by lasers, and Falco scores the kill much more easily with D-throw -> DACUS.

Maybe difficult but definably manageable. Falco is marginally manageable in vBrawl

Wolf beats Ike handily. He's just simply a way better character at everything, and he has a laser to stop Ike from approaching. Ike doesn't have anything gay on Wolf to mess him up, so basically Ike has no real advantages against Wolf.

Wolf may have an advantage but even in vBrawl is wasn't bad enough where Ike couldn't win

Link and Samus are ridiculously terrible for Ike for the same reasons. They camp him, and can shieldgrab him out of every approach, AND they can outspace him. To make things even worse, they can actually kill him as well with safe moves, while Ike really doesn't have much going for him otherwise. Ike's N-air buff really doesn't help him against those characters in any way, since Z-air spacing basically prohibits jumps.

Link isn't terrible. Before Ike had the advantage, now Link has some tricks up his sleeve to even it out on Ike. Ike's eruption really hurts Link on how he recovers.

Samus I know nothing about, I'm waiting for a certain 100 dollar MM to happen at WHOBO before I talk about Samus.. otherwise any Samus things i know from vBrawl are outdated.

Snake still destroys Ike the same way he did before with superior closeup options. It just takes longer for him to kill Ike with his safe and massive U-tilt, but he still controls the **** out of Ike and tilts him to death.

Snake in vBrawl is 60:40. Can only be easier for Ike

Sheik does stuff that MK and Snake do to Ike, and manages to own him with godly stage control options and broken close up options and combos into dumb stuff.

Sheik won in vBrawl cause she could combo Ike then gimp Ike. Now that Ike can recover, she will have more problems... but if jab can cancel in usmash

Fox does stuff like Sheik to a smaller scale, in that he can run away and stage control all day against Ike. Only he can kill Ike early for whiffing something.

If anything Fox is easier to deal with since his buffs revolved around not getting CG/locked/etc. Pure theroycraft here hey gotta base my reasoning off something: Fox blaster's Ike charging Quickdraw, Ike wins with more damage dealt when his QD hits Fox. and Since QD is no longer a bad move, voila

Seriously...Ike is just horrible. And Ganon probably beats him slightly.

Horrible, not at all! He's just the Mewtwo of Brawl

Edit: @JOE the videos take time man. Got all the Pikachu vs Yoshi processing but the last one that is being uploaded atm. Doing Ike vs Bowser next

 

[Steeler]

wasn't mewtwo horrible?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really think that Ike's ultimate solution against Olimar is a buffed BKB on Fair. His main spacing tool npw would be able to push oli far enough to having him relatively safe on block (but PS, though). And actually could help him as a strong hit character to kill a little better...
Just sayin'...

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh, well then the simple solution for that is arbitrarily adding in a few more invul frames to deal with that.

Already done. Merely doubling it from 3 to 6 is enough. (Marth has 5 I think? His is intangible while Ike's is invincible.)

Surely this is only a natural result of the move having Super Armor? I can't imagine that it would be any different if Ike countered a vBrawl Bowser f-smash while Bowser had spawn invincibility.

Well the thought process is "Counter is supposed to beat attacks! I even timed it right, WTF?!?"

Horrible, not at all! He's just the Mewtwo of Brawl

My brain rejected this pair of sentences from further processing, so I dunno what to say.

 

[Ussi]

wasn't mewtwo horrible?

When you watch Taj play M2 you really can't say that...

 

[JOE!]

Horrible, not at all! He's just the Mewtwo of Brawl

Edit: @JOE the videos take time man. Got all the Pikachu vs Yoshi processing but the last one that is being uploaded atm. Doing Ike vs Bowser next

****, it takes that long for youtube to load?

Also, somethign silly about our yoshi vs pika: it is allways down to the wire at the last stock, and it's been decided by some silly kill move each time

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Already done. Merely doubling it from 3 to 6 is enough. (Marth has 5 I think? His is intangible while Ike's is invincible.)



Well the thought process is "Counter is supposed to beat attacks! I even timed it right, WTF?!?"

yet we dont touch lucarios counter.......

When you watch Taj play M2 you really can't say that...

thats like saying when you watch ally play captain falcon you cant say hes horrible....... and i have seen allys falcon beat some pretty good people (and beat my pikachu D

 

[Ussi]

****, it takes that long for youtube to load?

Also, somethign silly about our yoshi vs pika: it is allways down to the wire at the last stock, and it's been decided by some silly kill move each time

I think its just my net/laptop being bad o_O But its taking 40+ minutes per video -_____-;; (in the beginning it took 20 minutes) I'm thinking of restarting my laptop after this video is done loading..

But seriously while uploading videos smashboards takes like years to looooad

EDIT: What irks me most is i forgot to save the replay of that one win on smashville with that epic thunder2 kill DX

 

[Thinkaman]

I really think that Ike's ultimate solution against Olimar is a buffed BKB on Fair. His main spacing tool npw would be able to push oli far enough to having him relatively safe on block (but PS, though). And actually could help him as a strong hit character to kill a little better...
Just sayin'...

BKB won't help. The amount of KBG to make it safe on block is asinine, like +60% minimum. (+50% barely dodges pikmin other than blue/white.) At this point Ike fair almsot kills like f-smash. >_>

yet we dont touch lucarios counter...

Huh? It's not affected by this at all.

 

[JOE!]

Thinka, did you see my suggestion a few pages back about adding a small shockwave to bowser's down b when he hits ground?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

BKB won't help. The amount of KBG to make it safe on block is asinine, like +60% minimum. (+50% barely dodges pikmin other than blue/white.) At this point Ike fair almsot kills like f-smash. >_>

i dont see the problem with that


and it is more of a counter should actually hit, not just be pshielded when it counters a lot of the moves in the game. even olis usmash is unpunishable by counter

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You missed something Stealth. Lucario's Double Team is unblockable in the latest builds (so are Marth and Ike's Counters, but it barely matters for them).

It should be clarified it's just those three, not counter-attacks in general. Peach's Toad is still blockable, for instance.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

oh i forgot about that. im sure some can still spot dodge it though :/

 

[G.D.]

All attempts to make u-tilt cool and interesting turned out pretty lame--like many moves, Ganon u-tilt had a lot of experiments on my end that yielded less than amazing results. Most changes were useless, and many others were wonky and possibly too powerful, like most canceling. The only thing I think might fit is cancel-to-shield, which I don't think is necessary.

Just gonna fling out my two cents, but I'd be pretty disappointed if it was changed to the degree of... say... his dtilt or throws, or even some of the moves that just have armor or invincibility. Despite how it's generally hard to hit with, it definitely does more good than bad as-is if one doesn't abuse it and has good timing plus good prediction. (Still, you're pretty much only gonna hit with it while they're near or on the ledge.)

We still can combo him well, especially out of dthrow and we have more priority. also dash usmash is As avoidable as ours. You can SDI out of dair to not even get hit by utilt.

His dash-upsmash may be as avoidable, but I think you're forgetting that it's his main kill move, much more powerful, and can be brought from things like dair or some rather simple throw-based mindgames.

 

[Ussi]

His dash-upsmash may be as avoidable, but I think you're forgetting that it's his main kill move, much more powerful, and can be brought from things like dair or some rather simple throw-based mindgames.

Mindgames are your fault for falling for it, but the opportunity is there just like Pika's usmash > thunder.

2ndly, I said you can SDI out of Fox's dair to not even get hit by utilt. Course easier said than done.

 

[G.D.]

Mindgames are your fault for falling for it, but the opportunity is there just like Pika's usmash > thunder.

...That's much, much harder to land than Dthrow-aerial, Dthrow-Usmash mix-up mindgames. Firstly, Usmash is pretty easy to DI, and secondly there's reflector for just about any situation Pikachu could use thunder that wouldn't already put Fox within inches of the top blast zone on most stages (assuming the Fox doesn't make a blatantly stupid mistake).

2ndly, I said you can SDI out of Fox's dair to not even get hit by utilt. Course easier said than done.

True, but as even you seem to agree, that's pretty hard to do, and I believe it's practically impossible from certain angles and certain percents...


Despite the exacts of their current matchup, I think we can both agree that in BB, Pikachu's game against Fox no longer completely shuts him down in tourney situations like it did in vB. Am I right?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

utilt to thunder is far easier to land then usmash thunder, the di is harder to hit

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinka, did you see my suggestion a few pages back about adding a small shockwave to bowser's down b when he hits ground?

Yeah, I'm just not sure what this would really accomplish. I don't see how it affects matchups or any issues bowser has--what does it cover that dair doesn't? It seems like a somewhat large change for the sake of a somewhat large change.

oh i forgot about that. im sure some can still spot dodge it though :/

Only really fast cooldown jabs should be able to. (Or projectile cases, obviously.)

 

[Ussi]

...That's much, much harder to land than Dthrow-aerial, Dthrow-Usmash mix-up mindgames. Firstly, Usmash is pretty easy to DI, and secondly there's reflector for just about any situation Pikachu could use thunder that wouldn't already put Fox within inches of the top blast zone on most stages (assuming the Fox doesn't make a blatantly stupid mistake).

If anything Pikachu can QAC away.. better to always follow up with fair

Despite the exacts of their current matchup, I think we can both agree that in BB, Pikachu's game against Fox no longer completely shuts him down in tourney situations like it did in vB. Am I right?

Of course, I was saying from the beginning I simply believe Pikachu has the edge in the MU