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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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Steeler

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if we are talking crazy stuff with ganon, i'd like to see a fair that full hop auto cancels.

on a side note, i think the up b uppercut should be weakened. it's just ridiculous how strong it is.
 

camzy

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if we are talking crazy stuff with ganon, i'd like to see a fair that full hop auto cancels.

on a side note, i think the up b uppercut should be weakened. it's just ridiculous how strong it is.
It's really hard to land that hit anyways, so leave it.

I think he needs a buff to his jab and nair personally. His nair is awful, and there's simply no situation in which you should use it. I'm not sure how you can improve it, but AA's constraining rules to not change hitboxes, timing and priority basically stop ganon from improving much. He's still completely outcamped by just about every character, has no decent approaches and gets comboed easily.
 

Steeler

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actually ganondorf nair is a good aerial, it's just ganondorf's lack of mobility that holds it back.
 

A2ZOMG

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Ganon's N-air is his 2nd best aerial imo. One new spacing strategy I do a lot with that aerial is fullhop U-air -> N-air.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Hey guys, Stage Hacking Incoming http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260800. AA has posted there so he is aware of it. Still in Beta but Hopefully this will be explored futher then we can have more legalized stages possibly
Of course he would post in that thread, look at what he's the moderator of. However, this would be very interesting to see what it could do to certain abusable stages
 

6Mizu

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You would be surprized how much just an extremely fast Jab can do for Ganon Also....


I just finished Title Screen 2.0 also I found a camera to take a offscreen pic so enjoy.



Added:
-Firey and warm color scheme
-Balanced redone, is now larger, more colored, and overall more noticable
-YingYang is larger and is clearly defined
-Brawl slighty redone although should be the same.
-Removed apparently homo rainbows.
-Overall a more simplified design

Download:http://www.mediafire.com/?znzgtr5myy0
Wow! I know I'm late, but this is really good! :)

Good Job, Lokee!
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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Ice Climbers are my last .pac left to make! Then I can focus on actually developing the game again and not just porting. Unfortunately, they may be the biggest job of all...
 

rPSIvysaur

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Good luck AA :D

I'm going to have to get a new SD card now so I can still keep B+ on my SD card and BBrawl D:
 

6Mizu

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Ice Climbers are my last .pac left to make! Then I can focus on actually developing the game again and not just porting. Unfortunately, they may be the biggest job of all...
Good luck! :)
Hope you finish quicker than you expected. Though I doubt it. :laugh:

Good luck AA :D

I'm going to have to get a new SD card now so I can still keep B+ on my SD card and BBrawl D:
Ohhh yea, I remember you telling me about it. So when are you gettin' it? :confused:
 

DeathVelvien

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Okay, I'm having some problems here. I put the the contents in the root of my SD card, deleted my custom stages and booted up Brawl. When I went to Stage Builder, however, I was never prompted to "launch game". Any one know what the problem could be?
 

rPSIvysaur

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Okay, I'm having some problems here. I put the the contents in the root of my SD card, deleted my custom stages and booted up Brawl. When I went to Stage Builder, however, I was never prompted to "launch game". Any one know what the problem could be?
Double check to make sure all the directories in your SD card are correct and wait a little bit before select custom stages in vBrawl to make sure it loads properly. Make sure you do those and then come back if they don't work.

Ohhh yea, I remember you telling me about it. So when are you gettin' it? :confused:
At this point, it's getting annoying all of these pointless posts, use your posts wisely when you have something good to say. My post was strictly a comment about how large and how much room this .pac system takes up for an SD card and how smaller SD cards can't handle BBrawl.
 

The_Altrox

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btw, in the next instalment of this game will Practice Stage replace rumble falls on all versions of the download?
also, have you considered replacing banned stages with Balanced SSE stages?
 

Amazing Ampharos

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WiFi Training Room never replaced Rumble Falls (a secretly decent stage). It replaced Hanenbow, and the necessary code just didn't exist for the PAL version.

I'm not generally "replacing" stages with SSE stages for sure. There seems to be a code that lets you just add stages, and that's on the table. I haven't really put too much time into thinking about/working on SSE stages though; the default 42 stages have such more inherent potential in them.
 

Lokee

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I perfer at the very least you consider replacing 75m and Mario Bros. as those stages seem even with untapped stage hacking they will never be used. A neutral SSEstage would be more suitible.

IF you do replace these two I suggest pick either two battlefield esque stage or one battlefield esque and a final destination esque stage. Two FD style stage would go in favor of those campy characters Falco, Olimar, Etc. and disfavor mostly Ganon and certain others which I would avoid.

Here would be my choices hypotheically of course:
FD style stages:
1)Pika and Samus VS Ridley
2)Tabuu Fight
3)Dark Samus Fight AKA Samus armor in back
4)SSE Stadium

BF style stages:
1) One of the many Shadowbug Stages
2) Jungle Bower fight (its more of a combo of BF and FD)
3 ])Cant think of any other right now

but I digress............
 

The_Altrox

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I perfer at the very least you consider replacing 75m and Mario Bros. as those stages seem even with untapped stage hacking they will never be used. A neutral SSEstage would be more suitible.

IF you do replace these two I suggest pick either two battlefield esque stage or one battlefield esque and a final destination esque stage. Two FD style stage would go in favor of those campy characters Falco, Olimar, Etc. and disfavor mostly Ganon and certain others which I would avoid.

Here would be my choices hypotheically of course:
FD style stages:
1)Pika and Samus VS Ridley
2)Tabuu Fight
3)Dark Samus Fight AKA Samus armor in back
4)SSE Stadium

BF style stages:
1) One of the many Shadowbug Stages
2) Jungle Bower fight (its more of a combo of BF and FD)
3 ])Cant think of any other right now

but I digress............
would like. I already replaced Temple with the vs. Shadow Bowser stage. Temple is too big, even with the bottom missing
 

bobson

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I perfer at the very least you consider replacing 75m and Mario Bros. as those stages seem even with untapped stage hacking they will never be used. A neutral SSEstage would be more suitible.
Why would you get rid of two stages when you can just add more?
 
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That one's easy. Because sometimes, you have the most annoying nooby friends who demand to play on a ridiculously unplayable stage. >.> Like my old buddy ezra, who refused to follow the SBR rules and then johned when I lazer camped him as falco on Eldin.
 

Mit

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I perfer at the very least you consider replacing 75m and Mario Bros. as those stages seem even with untapped stage hacking they will never be used. A neutral SSEstage would be more suitible.

IF you do replace these two I suggest pick either two battlefield esque stage or one battlefield esque and a final destination esque stage. Two FD style stage would go in favor of those campy characters Falco, Olimar, Etc. and disfavor mostly Ganon and certain others which I would avoid.

Here would be my choices hypotheically of course:
FD style stages:
1)Pika and Samus VS Ridley
2)Tabuu Fight
3)Dark Samus Fight AKA Samus armor in back
4)SSE Stadium

BF style stages:
1) One of the many Shadowbug Stages
2) Jungle Bower fight (its more of a combo of BF and FD)
3 ])Cant think of any other right now

but I digress............
I think AA has already stated that if SSE stages were to be used, he wouldn't use stages that are almost like reskins of current stages. It just makes the counterpicking system a bit less effective and is mostly unnecessary. I recommended a few stages a while back that were pretty different (the jungle stage, the lakeside cliff, the Shadow Bug stage with high platforms, etc), although, I don't really expect any of them to make it in.

It would, however, be nice if WWR was added to the roster instead of replacing a stage. Although at the same time, it makes it impossible to strike from the random stage select. You either have a code to make it accessible to random, or you don't have a code and it isn't accessible to random. But it would remove any gripes about people wishing they still had whatever stage WWR replaces.
 

ぱみゅ

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The one of the battle vs. Lucario is very good, imo. It's just a perfect counterpick for some characters: ice, walkoffs, falloffs, inclination... It could be very exploited!
Also, I'm too with adding stages instead of replacing.

I wonder if stage's .pacs can be modified like char's ones. If Rumble Falls hadn't speedups, it could be a non-broken CP, or if changing the reward system on Wario Ware could make it more viable....
 

The_Altrox

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The one of the battle vs. Lucario is very good, imo. It's just a perfect counterpick for some characters: ice, walkoffs, falloffs, inclination... It could be very exploited!
Also, I'm too with adding stages instead of replacing.

I wonder if stage's .pacs can be modified like char's ones. If Rumble Falls hadn't speedups, it could be a non-broken CP, or if changing the reward system on Wario Ware could make it more viable....
Spike of doom and no ledges. Cripple the tethers... i think not
 

Mr. Escalator

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You can always edit edges onto the stage. Unless you are talking about Rumble Falls, which is actually really fair aside from the speedup being a bit wonky. It's no less fair than Rainbow Cruise. No lie.

I would be for the inclusion of SSE stages you deem fit, but that's something you (AA) should worry about after making changes to the characters as well as making an attempt on the preexisting stages.

Good job AA, keep it going.
 

The_Altrox

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What do you need ledges for in rumble falls? O_o Pretty sure that's the least of its problems.
You never know. It's more of the problem that the stage moves up. There are times when you need that third jump. also, aren't the blast zones all screwy on top, left, and right?
 

Sasha

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...I don't understand the reason behind getting rid of stages in favor of SSE or other stages.

Isn't the whole point of BBrawl to play/be exactly like vBrawl with some balance changes? I feel like getting rid of some stages would be contrary to that standard.

And I dunno about you guys, but I have fun just kinda d!cking around every once in a while.

i.e. Mario Bros is fun as hell. Especially playing like, 10 stock with people who can reflect items.

I was personally against replacing Hanenbow and effing with Hyrule. Both stages are fun for playing anything other than a serious 1v1 match... which is why it seems like these types of stages were added to Brawl to begin with.

On a more competitive note, adding/removing/screwing with stages screws with character balance (i.e. the counterpick system). Character balance > stage shenanigans imo.
 

rPSIvysaur

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I've been looking at Brawlwall and since it can edit now, I was wondering if you could make it so that instead of the cavern, it can be just a wall instead of having really low death boundries?
 

Linkshot

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Rumble Falls spike is 100% avoidable. If you touched it, you fully deserved to lose that stock, because you can even survive it.

There are 2 things wrong with Rumble Falls, and one is trivial.

The problem is the chokepoint. It's far too easy to grab somebody there and just continue releasing them for a kamikaze. Though, I suppose it does counterpick against characters that can't get around the chokepoint.

The minor problem is the weak diamond spikes that only small characters can walk under. Again, it's trivial.

It's a very fair stage and I support it becoming counterpick. I've just stopped fighting for it because it makes me look bad.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The main problem with Rumble Falls is the Speed Up section. It's really not stage ruining persay (the stage is pretty misunderstood), but it does both totally stop the flow of the match (except in Fox dittos and such), and it does require some extreme care from some of the slower characters.

Bbrawl grab release mechanics make grab release gimmicks unworkable either way. In general, I don't find the chokepoint that powerful; stopping someone from either hitting your or moving past you when they're coming from below is just not possible in most matchups. I can't really think of any in particular where it's easy, and I can only think of a few where it's even worth attempting particularly (Falco does kinda suck at attacking up).

Also, I do intend to look into Spear Pillar with .pac editing and improve it accordingly.
 

SaltyKracka

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I'm fairly sure that the main reason Rumble Falls is banned is not the hazards so much as it is the fact that it's a textbook stage for "fighting the stage" rather than fighting one's opponent. Similar stages are Flat Zone 2 (which has walkoffs, which are even worse) and 75M.
 

Lokee

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I think 75m is just a mess (only to be used in friendies or free4all) I mean it has erractic platforms probably the most of any non custom stage. Ladders which can sometimes screw with aerial combat/approaches. To make it worse it has a number of stage hazards in Pixel DK, the Spring, and the Fireballs not to mention it also has walkoffs as well. Ultimately a horror for sluggish characters and more of a nightmare against general campers.

Basically I think no matter how far Stage hacking goes it can never be above banned nothing short of replacing it.

Flatzone (boundries?) and Mario Bros. might be in the realm of saving. The most problem they have are their both walkoffs and have overpowered hazards. However Mario Bros. screws with kills and there is no gimping on this stage either and fortifies a type of tunnel camping.

Of course this my opinion

Also Pokemon Stadium 2 seems very workable.

ADDED: Is there any kind of way to make walkoffs more viable cause its seem to be a smash bros. problem in general.
 

A2ZOMG

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Rumble Falls, we seriously do not need more stages that screw with horrible recoveries.

Rainbow Cruise at least moves really slowly at all times. Rumble Falls also has really annoying ceilings that you can't jump through.

Norfair is a stage that I think however is worth tweaking. Noteably, Link and Ganondorf enjoy this stage a lot as I recall. Mainly the thing that upsets me most about that stage, the lava pillars are a fair bit too powerful and game changing.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Walk-offs are already improved to the point of viability in Balanced Brawl; that was an explicit goal I feel we accomplished already. Chaingrabs and locks that lead off walk-offs simply don't exist in Balanced Brawl; we removed all of them (with the exception of ICs chaingrab potentially having some walk-off power, but ICs are a special case and everyone knows it). "Walk off camping" doesn't work in real games with decent to good players, and most insistence that it does come from people who have little experience on walk off stages.

In general the idea of "fighting the stage" is just nonsense as well. Decent to good players don't have trouble surviving on any stage. Really, set yourself to Ganondorf (the least mobile character) in training mode, go to Rumble Falls, and see if you can survive indefinitely. If the answer is no, you really, really suck at Brawl, so bad you should go, play, and get better before posting on smashboards again. The point there is that the stage itself is a non-threat. What is dangerous is when the other player utilizes the stage's geography and features to force you into peril. Some types of geography and features can be overly polarizing or promote degenerate gameplay, and Balanced Brawl seeks to remove those. however, geography and features that create peril in general are no evil; having to respond to a Meta Knight on your left and a wall of lava on your right and finding the solution that ends with you still having your stock and hopefully the Meta Knight not having his is an essential part of Brawl. Non-traditional gameplay isn't a particular problem either; winning because you were able to control horizontal space well on Final Destination is no more or less valid a victory than winning because you were able to pin your opponent on the conveyor belts in the electric form of Pokemon Stadium 2 (there is no reason for Pokemon Stadium 2 to not be legal everywhere in standard Brawl already; people are just dumb about it). It's all a part of the game, all the changes in Balanced Brawl are definitely made to consider the depth of possible situations that could arise, and to be very blunt about it, the game is just plain better when as many very different stages as possible are preserved and used in a serious competitive sense seeing as every unique feature offered by a stage is just a raw addition to the depth of the game.

Now as per the three dramatic stages Lokee brings up...

For one, Mario Bros is definitely the structurally worst of them, and I have no idea where one would even start in trying to make it fair. The hazards are so powerful nothing else even matters, but I think the stage would actually get worse if the hazards were toned down or gone since then things like the massive loop or the way the stage is a huge techfest would start to matter and would be even more broken than the hazards (the hazards just basically make every character the same since "throw a turtle or crab" is a better attack than literally every character specific move in the game). This stage would be one of the very last I'd consider trying to save; in addition to being probably the most fundamentally flawed stage in Brawl, it also has to consider that the "soul" of the stage requires almost all of its features be left in-tact (or else it would not be an accurate re-creation of Mario Bros!). Eventually, maybe severely weakening (but not removing) the hazards and letting the platforms be passed through could work, but there are issues with that still.

75m isn't such a bad stage; the only real challenge is the fact that changing the structure of it at all would make it, well, not 75m. Ladders are awesome and do nothing but add to the stage's virtue, and the hazards aren't that big of a deal (the springs could probably afford to do less knockback, but it's a small issue not a large one). The main problem the stage has is that the multitude of really small platforms makes certain types of camping way too good and low aerial mobility characters way too bad. Camping the lower-left is what I've found is the best tactic in general; you have to jump in on that to approach it, and your safe options to do so as most characters are really limited. Ness in particular is really silly from this position as Pk Thunder can actually still pressure from here, and the left blastzone isn't really that far so he can actually fthrow to kill stupidly low in that direction. There are also some strategies for camping the lower-right that can be pretty effective, though I don't think they're as good as the lower-left ones. Either way, characters like Bowser and Ganondorf are just hopeless; they can't approach any of these good defensive positions without great tribulation, and anything they might try to do is telegraphed massively because of how long it takes them to do anything. The stage also is pretty good for certain types of run-away which can be silly. Fixing it is mostly hard because the lay-out of the platforms is an essential part of the stage being 75m. I'm not going to destroy the authenticity of these retro stages like that...

It's not the topic, but Hanenbow has similar issues though a little different. Basically, the small platform camping is just really good but not quite broken on Hanenbow, but the run-away, instead of being really good but not quite broken like it is on 75m, is actually broken on Hanenbow. I do have an idea to improve Hanenbow; I'll have to figure out a bigger strategy to deal with that and the stage select screen.

Flat Zone 2 is actually just a skip and a hop away from being fair. With the walk-off issues resolved, the main issue is that the lion tamers are just way too powerful. If we could edit the hazard hitboxes to tone them down, Flat Zone 2 is instantly cp worthy... though somewhat of a tone down to the oil panic guys might be a good idea too. The main concern is actually that Flat Zone 2 is just a really, really good Snake stage; the ceiling is lower than average (though not as low as some silly people seem to think; it's much higher than Flat Zone's ceiling from melee), and he can utilize the hazards as a part of his spatial control game very efficiently. Still though, with stage hazard editing, it should be workable.

With BrawlWall under such active development though, I think we should sit back and let Dantarion work before getting too excited. I definitely intend to make use of these new and exciting tools, but as things stand we still have some waiting before it will be clear what exactly we can do.

I still need to find Nana's subaction offsets for dsmash and pummel, and then I can get that .pac done. I normally do .pacs in one shot, but I spent over an hour digging through PSA looking for that dsmash just not finding it for some stupid reason or another and had to take what I will euphemistically call a sanity break... and haven't had a chance to look at it since. If anyone's curious, here are the offsets I've found... as proof I really have done something.

Nana's dair subaction: 2d234
Nana's fsmash subaction: 2c1e4
Nana's usmash subaction: 2c3e4

The throws are already known, just in case anyone was curious about that.
 

A2ZOMG

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I think the general consensus for Mario is that he will have his Smashes nerfed next version, but I want to suggest buffs that actually focus more on his unique strengths.

N-air is a very useful attack in general by virtue of its speed, combo setups, and amazing edgeguard applications. Personally me, I'd like to see this attack do 1% more on the strong and weak hitboxes to make Mario's already decent edgeguard options a little more rewarding.

Mario's Jab combo probably could use a 1% buff on the last hit, which I'd say helps in the long run, or reduces the effectiveness of Mario's Jab combo lockdown on walls that works until like 70-80%, which can be set up with F-throw at 0%.

Also...D-tilt's knockback is really too high to be practical. It has some merits from Jab canceling into it due to its better range, but generally speaking it is inferior to U-tilt in every other way. In vBrawl, it could be used to create setups at KO percents due in part to the extremely low knockback. It can't do that anymore in BBrawl.
 

Hyrus

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It's not a big deal to me, since I just play neutrals, but...

In general the idea of "fighting the stage" is just nonsense as well. Decent to good players don't have trouble surviving on any stage. Really, set yourself to Ganondorf in training mode, go to Rumble Falls, and see if you can survive indefinitely.
The issue isn't, literally, fighting the stage. It is not that it's hard to survive a stage on practice with Ganon (a truely silly notion). It's fighting your opponent and the stage at the same time. The human brain has physical limitations and the strain of reading, predicting and reacting to your opponent is hectic enough on something like BattleField.

But further, getting a 2 second warning of an incoming car on Onett isn't fair if you just happen to be getting drilled in a corner or just face planted on the ground. Reacting to the car in those situations randomly presents an advantageous situation to neither or one player depending on their distance/angles/status and takes 0 skill to take advantage of those situations. If you happen to be fighting and exchanging blows, someone can end up being tossed into a wall of lava that just spawned without any intelligent strategy involved. It just happened. Or the fish on Jungle Japes - no intelligent design involved; either it's there and it KO's you, sets you up to be punished if you instantly standup or isn't there at random.

Really, two (good) players on Final Destination create a myriad of conditions and factors through the numerous "states" the player can be put in (standing, jumping, trajectory, faceplanted, ledge, etc). I mean, no one's forcing anyone to play the game a certain way here, but circumstantial hazards are not competitive in nature and "fighting the stage" is a legitimate complaint.
 
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