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Balanced Brawl Standard Release
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Ahahahah
That sounds hilarious.
"SLOWLY FALLING KNEE!" *bzzzzzzzt* "HYESZ!"
That sounds hilarious.
"SLOWLY FALLING KNEE!" *bzzzzzzzt* "HYESZ!"
ShermantheTank
Smash Journeyman
I fixed it
JOE!
Smash Hero
as for his hitbox problems...
maybe *gasp* less landing lag on his aerials?
maybe *gasp* less landing lag on his aerials?
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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In Melee, the window to sweetspot Knee was almost like that, because it was like what, a 5-10 frame window? It feels like you get sweetspotted when your opponent starts up this attack from a mile away.
JOE!
Smash Hero
maybe if the flubbed knee were a tad stronger?
make it just a bit more annoying
make it just a bit more annoying
I am going to get into the notion of "shieldcamping" for hopefully the last time. It is not nearly as good as some people are portraying it to be. I am mostly posting this part as an attempt to give closure to this issue that has dominated this discussion for too long. The important part of this post is lower, in an obvious place.
Shielding in general has two things that counter it. One is that shielding characters are grabbable, and grabs are a universal (if uneven in utility) option. The second is that shields deplete both with time and as they get hit. Letting your shield break is essentially never a viable option, and even if your shield isn't going to break, low shields do a horrible job of protecting the user as they are very easy to shieldstab.
So, if your opponent is shielding a lot, you have two basic options. You can attempt to grab them, or you can play for low shield on the opponent and then punish that. Let us consider Ganondorf now.
Ganondorf might play for a grab. His grab does indeed have somewhat poor range, but it is not unusably bad. Ice Climbers have worse grab range, and they have no problems with "shieldcamping" to say the least! Ganondorf has a 5% pummel and a very powerful fthrow (13% if I recall) so his reward for landing a grab is likely double his opponent's reward for grabbing him or getting some fast out of shield punish. He does have to work harder than most characters to land that grab, but playtesting and theory both suggest that the risk-reward in going for that grab is quite fair to Ganon if not leaning in his favor in a whole bunch of matchups.
Now option 2. The thing certain people keep stressing is that Ganon lacks safe pokes. Yes, this is true. However, Ganon's attacks are massively powerful which means he does massive shield damage on block. Of course, he gets punished after hitting the shield, but if the shield is low, blocking against Ganon is suddenly very scary. Shields deplete on their own too. If Ganon feints a few times and the opponents actually block each time (Ganon might be so crafty as to just stand there as though he's about to attack but actually doing nothing while the opponent just holds shield and increases their peril!), Ganon is really in a great position to begin his attack... which as we all know is more devastating than anyone else's. Also, consider the opponent's options if they are trapped in shield when Ganon does not attack. They could hold shield, but as we've covered, this only increases their peril. They could roll, but Wizard's Foot is a great rollchase that will probably hit them out of that for good damage and good position for Ganon. If Ganon can get Flame Choke, it's even better. Spotdodging against someone who isn't attacking in any way is basically asking to be hit by whatever the opponent wants to hit you with, and this is Ganondorf we're talking about. It's a non-viable option. Just dropping shield is non-instant, and Ganon can punish that with Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke most easily but also dtilt or walk up jab or walk up grab or sometimes even ftilt pretty viably (note that with Flame Choke, it's a command grab so the opponent still having the shield up when it hits is of no consequence to Ganon). The opponent could jump which puts them in Ganon uair territory with uair on Ganon being fast with good range and a move that most of the cast has no desire to trifle with. Being above Ganon also opens up Ganon's Dark Dive game which is incredibly deadly; you really just don't want to be above Ganon.
Of course things can be hard on Ganon in the sense that he can't be throwing down threats pre-emptively like most other characters, but he still has access to the very powerful universal options against shielding which include punishing the opponent for shielding at inappropriate times. And, yes, the opponent is going to be playing extremely defensively against Ganon (and Bowser and DK and any other heavyweight you care to mention). Our design all along presumed this; it's not some revelation that extremely defensive play is the best option for most of the cast against them. Against a heavyweight powerhouse character, playing loosely is simply not an option. You trade hits against them and you lose. Their opportunities are worth more than your opportunities so you need to minimize the number of opportunities all around. Playing defensively isn't a free pass either though because of the way it limits the user's options and how even shielding itself isn't actually safe if the opponent is in an appropriately positioned neutral position. The whole battle is the heavyweight trying to find that one crack in the armor while the defender shuffles imperfect shields in an attempt to protect himself.
I really can't stress enough how much playtesting we've locally given Ganon (probably one of the top 5 most playtested characters) and how consistently he's demonstrated himself to be fine. I really went into the theory deeply here, theory backed up by not only my local play but also very obviously demonstrated in high level play of standard Brawl (how much "sheildcamping" do you see Mew2King and Ally do... almost none). Shielding is very powerful in context, but shielding is not completely safe and does not defeat any characters by itself. It just does not happen. The only times it seems to work is when the person executing it is correctly baiting a bunch of unsafe attacks, but in that case, the true victor is baiting, not "shieldcamping". Of course, baiting is exceptionally good in Brawl; if you can trick the opponent into doing what you want them to do, your path to victory grows ever easier. Of course, everyone can bait, from Meta Knight to Ganon. It's more about players at that point.
Ganon has dominated way too much discussion time regardless. The only thing really worth talking about on him are these "worst matchups". I am not the greatest Ganon player, but as I explored him personally, the only matchup I found that seemed kinda dumb to me was Olimar. Of course, Thinkaman assures me that Ganon v Olimar is winnable for Ganon, and Thinkaman is a way better Ganon than me. I'm curious about everyone's experiences on both the Olimar matchup and other specific matchups that seem to be Ganon's worst.
As per Captain Falcon, personally I haven't seen too much of him as he's really Thinkaman's forte. His horrible range/priority is something that I, as a player, really just plain don't enjoy dealing with, but I've seen it made to work before (because, like literally every weakness, you can play around it by trying to define the game on the basis of your strengths). I know the knee is definitely reasonable to land in real matches; it just requires you to be really precise and probably to have spent a lot of time on Captain Falcon in particular. A2 is probably pretty on-point with Captain Falcon being technical actually; he and Fox both require some real finger gymnastics to play them right (also, even though she doesn't seem to need it to me, does anyone else notice that all actual Sheik players are stupidly technical?).
---
We're getting to the point where we need to really start focusing on the next edition. I think after this weekend I'll be able to get Thinkaman, my cohort in this, more involved. Regardless, I'd like to really focus things on getting more useful data here, and unlike previous attempts that petered out quickly, I'm going to try to hyper-focus it one character at a time. The first one will be one that I suspect will be very easy to get discussion about.
Mario
I'll start with what I've seen of Mario.
Mario is pretty good mostly. His only really glaring weakness is a general issue of low disjointedness on his attacks (remember, all attacks are at least partially disjointed in Brawl), but a decent projectile as well as his fsmash/Cape make this a non-absolute weakness. Mario's KO power is merely average, but average isn't a horrible place to be, especially since he has decent enough diversity in his KO options to play around staleness (that is, he can safely use some of his KO moves for damage racking depending on matchup) and to give him room to mix up a bit when going for that KO (his bane in standard Brawl: you knew he was ultimately going for that fsmash).
As per matchups, Mario seems capable in every matchup with his worst being ones where the opponent is especially good at picking at his achilles heel of range/priority. Mr. Game & Watch seems to still solidly beat Mario, and I suspect he wouldn't enjoy really solid ICs or Marth either. Of course, he still has hope in those matchups as, while his range/priority are generally low, he has things like Fireballs he can use to play at the spacing game a bit, disrupt it, and then run in and reposition to redefine the conflict on terms more favorable to Mario. Of course, the fact that he doesn't have overwhelming strengths can be another issue. Basically any opponent who specializes in something is going to do it better than Mario does it. The heavyweights are stronger, the speed characters are faster, and anyone really built around a projectile game will leave Mario wishing he'd never even thought about zoning with his Fireballs. This gives all opponents, even those ill-suited to picking at Mario's real weakness, something to aim for in their matchups with Mario, and it's also a safeguard that Mario is never looking at some overwhelming factor in any matchup so great that everything else stops mattering. I strongly suspect Mario doesn't look at any matchups outside of the range 60-40 to 40-60, all things considered.
As per stages, Mario doesn't seem to have strong preferences to me. He has a decent game both in the air and grounded, vertical and horizontal. Mario has an average time at dealing with walk-offs, average positioning ability to deal with movement, and an average game of forcing people into hazards. If I were playing Mario, I'd mostly focus my stage selection on the opponent's weaknesses and not my own strengths; it's going to be easier to find a stage bad for the other character than good for Mario. That being said, I find Balanced Brawl's new stage options mostly inconsequential for Mario and likely to remain that way with future changes.
I'm not sure I see the need for Mario to change. He's good, but he's really not "too good", and I would not place him in the highest tier (though I would place him in the top half pretty easily). I don't have serious questions about his viability or about him seriously harming the viability of others. Perhaps people who have spent more time with Mario disagree.
That being said, does anyone else have any serious analysis of Mario and what needs to happen relative to Mario in the next version? Here are things that are specifically interesting...
-Best/worst matchups
-Serious impact by Bbrawl's stage list
-Degenerate strategies involving Mario (either abuses he can perpetuate or abuses especially effective against him)
-Detailed information on specific matchups involving Mario, even ones that are not radical (like, if you know, say, Mario vs DK as a matchup really well, we definitely appreciate you sharing even if your conclusion is that it's about 50-50)
I still question the power of ledgestalling, but we really do intend for mechanics changes to weaken it as a tactic regardless for the next version (it's in research as per implementation) so please everyone spare us stuff like "Meta Knight ledgestalling" as a counter for the entire cast. Regardless of whether you're right or wrong on that issue, it's not helpful because we're going to do everything we can to pre-empt that issue.
So, it's Mario time. I know he's seen a lot of play so I'm hoping it will be easy to really get a broad sense of his potential. Just, please, let's keep things calm as we do this; I really don't want anyone feeling dissuaded from saying what they want to say. I know I can be as guilty as anyone of being overly dismissive and discouraging people from posting so take it from me when I say we need to try to be inviting enough for everyone to want to say their piece.
Shielding in general has two things that counter it. One is that shielding characters are grabbable, and grabs are a universal (if uneven in utility) option. The second is that shields deplete both with time and as they get hit. Letting your shield break is essentially never a viable option, and even if your shield isn't going to break, low shields do a horrible job of protecting the user as they are very easy to shieldstab.
So, if your opponent is shielding a lot, you have two basic options. You can attempt to grab them, or you can play for low shield on the opponent and then punish that. Let us consider Ganondorf now.
Ganondorf might play for a grab. His grab does indeed have somewhat poor range, but it is not unusably bad. Ice Climbers have worse grab range, and they have no problems with "shieldcamping" to say the least! Ganondorf has a 5% pummel and a very powerful fthrow (13% if I recall) so his reward for landing a grab is likely double his opponent's reward for grabbing him or getting some fast out of shield punish. He does have to work harder than most characters to land that grab, but playtesting and theory both suggest that the risk-reward in going for that grab is quite fair to Ganon if not leaning in his favor in a whole bunch of matchups.
Now option 2. The thing certain people keep stressing is that Ganon lacks safe pokes. Yes, this is true. However, Ganon's attacks are massively powerful which means he does massive shield damage on block. Of course, he gets punished after hitting the shield, but if the shield is low, blocking against Ganon is suddenly very scary. Shields deplete on their own too. If Ganon feints a few times and the opponents actually block each time (Ganon might be so crafty as to just stand there as though he's about to attack but actually doing nothing while the opponent just holds shield and increases their peril!), Ganon is really in a great position to begin his attack... which as we all know is more devastating than anyone else's. Also, consider the opponent's options if they are trapped in shield when Ganon does not attack. They could hold shield, but as we've covered, this only increases their peril. They could roll, but Wizard's Foot is a great rollchase that will probably hit them out of that for good damage and good position for Ganon. If Ganon can get Flame Choke, it's even better. Spotdodging against someone who isn't attacking in any way is basically asking to be hit by whatever the opponent wants to hit you with, and this is Ganondorf we're talking about. It's a non-viable option. Just dropping shield is non-instant, and Ganon can punish that with Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke most easily but also dtilt or walk up jab or walk up grab or sometimes even ftilt pretty viably (note that with Flame Choke, it's a command grab so the opponent still having the shield up when it hits is of no consequence to Ganon). The opponent could jump which puts them in Ganon uair territory with uair on Ganon being fast with good range and a move that most of the cast has no desire to trifle with. Being above Ganon also opens up Ganon's Dark Dive game which is incredibly deadly; you really just don't want to be above Ganon.
Of course things can be hard on Ganon in the sense that he can't be throwing down threats pre-emptively like most other characters, but he still has access to the very powerful universal options against shielding which include punishing the opponent for shielding at inappropriate times. And, yes, the opponent is going to be playing extremely defensively against Ganon (and Bowser and DK and any other heavyweight you care to mention). Our design all along presumed this; it's not some revelation that extremely defensive play is the best option for most of the cast against them. Against a heavyweight powerhouse character, playing loosely is simply not an option. You trade hits against them and you lose. Their opportunities are worth more than your opportunities so you need to minimize the number of opportunities all around. Playing defensively isn't a free pass either though because of the way it limits the user's options and how even shielding itself isn't actually safe if the opponent is in an appropriately positioned neutral position. The whole battle is the heavyweight trying to find that one crack in the armor while the defender shuffles imperfect shields in an attempt to protect himself.
I really can't stress enough how much playtesting we've locally given Ganon (probably one of the top 5 most playtested characters) and how consistently he's demonstrated himself to be fine. I really went into the theory deeply here, theory backed up by not only my local play but also very obviously demonstrated in high level play of standard Brawl (how much "sheildcamping" do you see Mew2King and Ally do... almost none). Shielding is very powerful in context, but shielding is not completely safe and does not defeat any characters by itself. It just does not happen. The only times it seems to work is when the person executing it is correctly baiting a bunch of unsafe attacks, but in that case, the true victor is baiting, not "shieldcamping". Of course, baiting is exceptionally good in Brawl; if you can trick the opponent into doing what you want them to do, your path to victory grows ever easier. Of course, everyone can bait, from Meta Knight to Ganon. It's more about players at that point.
Ganon has dominated way too much discussion time regardless. The only thing really worth talking about on him are these "worst matchups". I am not the greatest Ganon player, but as I explored him personally, the only matchup I found that seemed kinda dumb to me was Olimar. Of course, Thinkaman assures me that Ganon v Olimar is winnable for Ganon, and Thinkaman is a way better Ganon than me. I'm curious about everyone's experiences on both the Olimar matchup and other specific matchups that seem to be Ganon's worst.
As per Captain Falcon, personally I haven't seen too much of him as he's really Thinkaman's forte. His horrible range/priority is something that I, as a player, really just plain don't enjoy dealing with, but I've seen it made to work before (because, like literally every weakness, you can play around it by trying to define the game on the basis of your strengths). I know the knee is definitely reasonable to land in real matches; it just requires you to be really precise and probably to have spent a lot of time on Captain Falcon in particular. A2 is probably pretty on-point with Captain Falcon being technical actually; he and Fox both require some real finger gymnastics to play them right (also, even though she doesn't seem to need it to me, does anyone else notice that all actual Sheik players are stupidly technical?).
---
We're getting to the point where we need to really start focusing on the next edition. I think after this weekend I'll be able to get Thinkaman, my cohort in this, more involved. Regardless, I'd like to really focus things on getting more useful data here, and unlike previous attempts that petered out quickly, I'm going to try to hyper-focus it one character at a time. The first one will be one that I suspect will be very easy to get discussion about.
Mario
I'll start with what I've seen of Mario.
Mario is pretty good mostly. His only really glaring weakness is a general issue of low disjointedness on his attacks (remember, all attacks are at least partially disjointed in Brawl), but a decent projectile as well as his fsmash/Cape make this a non-absolute weakness. Mario's KO power is merely average, but average isn't a horrible place to be, especially since he has decent enough diversity in his KO options to play around staleness (that is, he can safely use some of his KO moves for damage racking depending on matchup) and to give him room to mix up a bit when going for that KO (his bane in standard Brawl: you knew he was ultimately going for that fsmash).
As per matchups, Mario seems capable in every matchup with his worst being ones where the opponent is especially good at picking at his achilles heel of range/priority. Mr. Game & Watch seems to still solidly beat Mario, and I suspect he wouldn't enjoy really solid ICs or Marth either. Of course, he still has hope in those matchups as, while his range/priority are generally low, he has things like Fireballs he can use to play at the spacing game a bit, disrupt it, and then run in and reposition to redefine the conflict on terms more favorable to Mario. Of course, the fact that he doesn't have overwhelming strengths can be another issue. Basically any opponent who specializes in something is going to do it better than Mario does it. The heavyweights are stronger, the speed characters are faster, and anyone really built around a projectile game will leave Mario wishing he'd never even thought about zoning with his Fireballs. This gives all opponents, even those ill-suited to picking at Mario's real weakness, something to aim for in their matchups with Mario, and it's also a safeguard that Mario is never looking at some overwhelming factor in any matchup so great that everything else stops mattering. I strongly suspect Mario doesn't look at any matchups outside of the range 60-40 to 40-60, all things considered.
As per stages, Mario doesn't seem to have strong preferences to me. He has a decent game both in the air and grounded, vertical and horizontal. Mario has an average time at dealing with walk-offs, average positioning ability to deal with movement, and an average game of forcing people into hazards. If I were playing Mario, I'd mostly focus my stage selection on the opponent's weaknesses and not my own strengths; it's going to be easier to find a stage bad for the other character than good for Mario. That being said, I find Balanced Brawl's new stage options mostly inconsequential for Mario and likely to remain that way with future changes.
I'm not sure I see the need for Mario to change. He's good, but he's really not "too good", and I would not place him in the highest tier (though I would place him in the top half pretty easily). I don't have serious questions about his viability or about him seriously harming the viability of others. Perhaps people who have spent more time with Mario disagree.
That being said, does anyone else have any serious analysis of Mario and what needs to happen relative to Mario in the next version? Here are things that are specifically interesting...
-Best/worst matchups
-Serious impact by Bbrawl's stage list
-Degenerate strategies involving Mario (either abuses he can perpetuate or abuses especially effective against him)
-Detailed information on specific matchups involving Mario, even ones that are not radical (like, if you know, say, Mario vs DK as a matchup really well, we definitely appreciate you sharing even if your conclusion is that it's about 50-50)
I still question the power of ledgestalling, but we really do intend for mechanics changes to weaken it as a tactic regardless for the next version (it's in research as per implementation) so please everyone spare us stuff like "Meta Knight ledgestalling" as a counter for the entire cast. Regardless of whether you're right or wrong on that issue, it's not helpful because we're going to do everything we can to pre-empt that issue.
So, it's Mario time. I know he's seen a lot of play so I'm hoping it will be easy to really get a broad sense of his potential. Just, please, let's keep things calm as we do this; I really don't want anyone feeling dissuaded from saying what they want to say. I know I can be as guilty as anyone of being overly dismissive and discouraging people from posting so take it from me when I say we need to try to be inviting enough for everyone to want to say their piece.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
Ive always thought Mario as one of those characters that had always had the obvious potenial of being one of the best. Its Just he always had something that prevented that, most notabllly getting that KO epecially setting it up. Also his range hindered him to a lesser extent but also idiotic things like DDD infinite.
I mean he has one of the most versitile movesets in the games. Great combo potenial, speed, Gimping tools: Cape and Fludd and even Bair. A projectile, though lower calibur in terms of the rest. Dair need I say more.
Anyway his bad matchups are those high priority long reaching basterds (no offense)
Marth, G+W, Metaknight, like most other chars.
Anyway I was looking at this thread as a reference http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291 of vbrawl Mario matchups and they are actually not as bad as I thought, nearly even all around and Mario only got better (so did every one else) espeacially in his weakest area.
IMO I think Mario is better then fine and better then most chars, Personally at this point I would only try to do something with fireballs or fludd ever so slightly.
Also Mario can Ledgestall with cape. (Useful for Sudden Death)
I mean he has one of the most versitile movesets in the games. Great combo potenial, speed, Gimping tools: Cape and Fludd and even Bair. A projectile, though lower calibur in terms of the rest. Dair need I say more.
Anyway his bad matchups are those high priority long reaching basterds (no offense)
Marth, G+W, Metaknight, like most other chars.
Anyway I was looking at this thread as a reference http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291 of vbrawl Mario matchups and they are actually not as bad as I thought, nearly even all around and Mario only got better (so did every one else) espeacially in his weakest area.
IMO I think Mario is better then fine and better then most chars, Personally at this point I would only try to do something with fireballs or fludd ever so slightly.
Also Mario can Ledgestall with cape. (Useful for Sudden Death)
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I'll see what I can do. It's a tournament tomorrow night...so probably not much bBrawl play will be put in.
Maybe I'll be able to convince my friend (best Mario in the scene) to do some Mario VS Lucario with me (also Mario VS Lucas and Mario VS Yoshi; I can also play Mario quite well, so any WiFi would be encouraged, as long as you're not West/South)
Really enjoying the redirection forward, AA. I was doing a bunch of Standard Brawl Ganon with said friend, and we went even for most of the matches (until, in all except two, I inevitably landed that one kill move.) Falco VS Ganon was great. No matter how much Falco chaingrabbed me, I just need to Sparta and fAir to deal it all back and more, and this is STANDARD BRAWL.
Anyway, I will see what I can do about Mario, for sure.
It's-a Mario time!
Maybe I'll be able to convince my friend (best Mario in the scene) to do some Mario VS Lucario with me (also Mario VS Lucas and Mario VS Yoshi; I can also play Mario quite well, so any WiFi would be encouraged, as long as you're not West/South)
Really enjoying the redirection forward, AA. I was doing a bunch of Standard Brawl Ganon with said friend, and we went even for most of the matches (until, in all except two, I inevitably landed that one kill move.) Falco VS Ganon was great. No matter how much Falco chaingrabbed me, I just need to Sparta and fAir to deal it all back and more, and this is STANDARD BRAWL.
Anyway, I will see what I can do about Mario, for sure.
It's-a Mario time!
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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AA, you really overstate the disadvantages of shieldcamping.
Firstoff, it is very very easy to stay away from your opponent in this game and have your shield naturally replenish. Now in the case of Ganondorf, this is even easier due to his lack of any viable approach.
Nextoff, there is next to no shield drop lag in this game, so you can just do anything out of shield extremely fast before human reaction time can compensate for that.
Next, if Ganondorf tries to wait against a shielding opponent, they can still grab him because his grabs are garbage, and because his mobility is crap, there is almost nothing he can do against poking either. You can in fact grab him out of Flame Choke furthermore. The Ice Climbers also have more advantages landing grabs, due to better mobility, methods of hit confirmation, and other ways of safely and directly comboing into a grab.
You also understate how quickly anyone can destroy Ganondorf. He's very easily comboed, and very easy to actually hit with kill moves, and even more easily gimped offstage. Sure, if Ganondorf can land a few hits, he might kill his opponent, but anyone can basically do the same thing back to him, but more easily since they don't need to take massive risk to start a combo or set up a gimp in the first place.
Now the argument that you can wait and grab is sorta valid for most characters. The thing about Ganondorf is he basically doesn't have a grab, and he can't deal with pokes. Approaching him offensively is in fact easy, as long as you do it correctly. It's all about poking him, and then comboing him to death, and then finishing him off with an edgeguard. This is not hard for G&W, Lucario, and Marth to do.
I don't doubt he's been playtested massively, but MY experience on the other hand finds that he still cannot do anything against a careful opponent, lacks any favorable matchups, and still retains unwinnable matchups. This is against other good players I've been testing Ganondorf against. As I've mentioned earlier, it's basically complete fact that Ganondorf cannot win against Samus ever, and it's more hopeless due to Samus in general getting better buffs.
He does have a number of improved matchups, although they only are even matchups at best. Vs Bowser and Luigi are better matchups for him for reasons I've stated a long time ago, and Luigi is probably his best non-ditto matchup overall, although still very difficult when a mistake gets you punished with an Up-B that kills you at like 65%. He of course does a bit better against Sheik, Snake, and Metaknight, but the matchups still suck a lot due to him getting punished a lot and outzoned/outspaced/gimped easily.
As for Mario:
One of Mario's main problems is a lack of good representation. There are only a few players (myself not included, I'm talking about people on Boss's level) who are able to play this character correctly. He's one of the hardest characters in the game to play properly, which makes him look a lot worse in low level play. He has options to do everything, but they hinge on a fair amount of precision and good reaction time. This is why you only hear about a few Mario mains being able to do anything in tournament with him. He's not a character for beginners by any means, contrary to what the Dojo says.
That being said, what works against most Mario users generally speaking is being unpredictable. Mario is an extremely technical character, and is very prone to whiffing attacks if he's not prepared, although most of the time, he DOES have a tool for punishing most of the time if he knows what his options are. Getting him to whiff is usually what causes me to lose matches with Mario, because of the precision he requires in general. Outbaiting him basically works really well because he leaves himself open when he whiffs. If you have a lot of mobility and more range than he does (G&W and Marth), his window for error becomes even smaller. Proper application of F-smashes and superior closeup strategies ranging from an amazing Jab cancel game and solid out of shield options keep all matchups winnable for Mario, so keeping him out, and avoiding his F-smash is important for winning against Mario.
Predicting his D-air is important because it's safe on defenses, but has rather low priority except on the last hit. D-air is one of Mario's best attacks, and one of the reasons why he shouldn't be underestimated.
Any Mario that knows how Fireballs work will rarely SH them, but fullhop them, as it's safer, and faster, and better at shield poking or working past defenses.
Matchups:
The Ice Climbers never actually ***** Mario, as Mario in fact outcamps them, and is really good at punishing their special moves. His ability to separate them with D-smash only got a lot better, so factoring that he doesn't get 0-death KOed by them, I think he should win 6/4 against the Ice Climbers. This matchup AT THE VERY WORST (which is basically on FD), the Ice Climbers beat Mario 6/4 in vBrawl. The matchup gets a lot better on stages with platforms, where Mario gets more and more advantages in camping them and avoiding their grab (which he can do really well anyhow, with his super safe D-air).
Metaknight is different from other disjoint users in that Mario has an easier time camping him, and Metaknight has to commit to an attack or dashing to increase his mobility. This matchup is much easier than G&W and Marth for those reasons alone, and I'd call this matchup close to neutral.
Vs Snake is much more manageable, with the increased damage of fireballs helping to keep up with Snake's camping, and the increased knockback of F-air guaranteeing death on spike. Both characters kill each other at about the same percents. I dunno what the matchup was in vBrawl to be honest, but what I do know was that Mario's main problem in this matchup was Snake surviving to 160% on each stock where he didn't get F-smashed or gimped, while killing at like 99% with Up-tilt.
Mario now definitely beats Falco, Sheik, Diddy, and Pikachu pretty solidly. These were matchups he was already good in in vBrawl. Falco lost a chaingrab and still can't kill crap, and Mario's D-smash now basically outclasses every kill move Falco has. Sheik lost some damage on her tilt juggle and DACUS, not to mention being unable to kill early most of the time in general. Mario could always handle Diddy's Banana game pretty well with his quick air game and Cape, and extra KO power sends an already rather neutral matchup into his favor. Pikachu can't kill, and getting killed earlier by one of Mario's Smashes does him no favors. In short, these characters basically can't kill easily at all, while Mario now got a move that he can land easily on all these characters that kills REALLY early.
Mario vs Samus was about even in vBrawl, and remains even in this game. It's the exact same matchup, with people dying about 40% earlier.
Firstoff, it is very very easy to stay away from your opponent in this game and have your shield naturally replenish. Now in the case of Ganondorf, this is even easier due to his lack of any viable approach.
Nextoff, there is next to no shield drop lag in this game, so you can just do anything out of shield extremely fast before human reaction time can compensate for that.
Next, if Ganondorf tries to wait against a shielding opponent, they can still grab him because his grabs are garbage, and because his mobility is crap, there is almost nothing he can do against poking either. You can in fact grab him out of Flame Choke furthermore. The Ice Climbers also have more advantages landing grabs, due to better mobility, methods of hit confirmation, and other ways of safely and directly comboing into a grab.
You also understate how quickly anyone can destroy Ganondorf. He's very easily comboed, and very easy to actually hit with kill moves, and even more easily gimped offstage. Sure, if Ganondorf can land a few hits, he might kill his opponent, but anyone can basically do the same thing back to him, but more easily since they don't need to take massive risk to start a combo or set up a gimp in the first place.
Now the argument that you can wait and grab is sorta valid for most characters. The thing about Ganondorf is he basically doesn't have a grab, and he can't deal with pokes. Approaching him offensively is in fact easy, as long as you do it correctly. It's all about poking him, and then comboing him to death, and then finishing him off with an edgeguard. This is not hard for G&W, Lucario, and Marth to do.
I don't doubt he's been playtested massively, but MY experience on the other hand finds that he still cannot do anything against a careful opponent, lacks any favorable matchups, and still retains unwinnable matchups. This is against other good players I've been testing Ganondorf against. As I've mentioned earlier, it's basically complete fact that Ganondorf cannot win against Samus ever, and it's more hopeless due to Samus in general getting better buffs.
He does have a number of improved matchups, although they only are even matchups at best. Vs Bowser and Luigi are better matchups for him for reasons I've stated a long time ago, and Luigi is probably his best non-ditto matchup overall, although still very difficult when a mistake gets you punished with an Up-B that kills you at like 65%. He of course does a bit better against Sheik, Snake, and Metaknight, but the matchups still suck a lot due to him getting punished a lot and outzoned/outspaced/gimped easily.
As for Mario:
One of Mario's main problems is a lack of good representation. There are only a few players (myself not included, I'm talking about people on Boss's level) who are able to play this character correctly. He's one of the hardest characters in the game to play properly, which makes him look a lot worse in low level play. He has options to do everything, but they hinge on a fair amount of precision and good reaction time. This is why you only hear about a few Mario mains being able to do anything in tournament with him. He's not a character for beginners by any means, contrary to what the Dojo says.
That being said, what works against most Mario users generally speaking is being unpredictable. Mario is an extremely technical character, and is very prone to whiffing attacks if he's not prepared, although most of the time, he DOES have a tool for punishing most of the time if he knows what his options are. Getting him to whiff is usually what causes me to lose matches with Mario, because of the precision he requires in general. Outbaiting him basically works really well because he leaves himself open when he whiffs. If you have a lot of mobility and more range than he does (G&W and Marth), his window for error becomes even smaller. Proper application of F-smashes and superior closeup strategies ranging from an amazing Jab cancel game and solid out of shield options keep all matchups winnable for Mario, so keeping him out, and avoiding his F-smash is important for winning against Mario.
Predicting his D-air is important because it's safe on defenses, but has rather low priority except on the last hit. D-air is one of Mario's best attacks, and one of the reasons why he shouldn't be underestimated.
Any Mario that knows how Fireballs work will rarely SH them, but fullhop them, as it's safer, and faster, and better at shield poking or working past defenses.
Matchups:
The Ice Climbers never actually ***** Mario, as Mario in fact outcamps them, and is really good at punishing their special moves. His ability to separate them with D-smash only got a lot better, so factoring that he doesn't get 0-death KOed by them, I think he should win 6/4 against the Ice Climbers. This matchup AT THE VERY WORST (which is basically on FD), the Ice Climbers beat Mario 6/4 in vBrawl. The matchup gets a lot better on stages with platforms, where Mario gets more and more advantages in camping them and avoiding their grab (which he can do really well anyhow, with his super safe D-air).
Metaknight is different from other disjoint users in that Mario has an easier time camping him, and Metaknight has to commit to an attack or dashing to increase his mobility. This matchup is much easier than G&W and Marth for those reasons alone, and I'd call this matchup close to neutral.
Vs Snake is much more manageable, with the increased damage of fireballs helping to keep up with Snake's camping, and the increased knockback of F-air guaranteeing death on spike. Both characters kill each other at about the same percents. I dunno what the matchup was in vBrawl to be honest, but what I do know was that Mario's main problem in this matchup was Snake surviving to 160% on each stock where he didn't get F-smashed or gimped, while killing at like 99% with Up-tilt.
Mario now definitely beats Falco, Sheik, Diddy, and Pikachu pretty solidly. These were matchups he was already good in in vBrawl. Falco lost a chaingrab and still can't kill crap, and Mario's D-smash now basically outclasses every kill move Falco has. Sheik lost some damage on her tilt juggle and DACUS, not to mention being unable to kill early most of the time in general. Mario could always handle Diddy's Banana game pretty well with his quick air game and Cape, and extra KO power sends an already rather neutral matchup into his favor. Pikachu can't kill, and getting killed earlier by one of Mario's Smashes does him no favors. In short, these characters basically can't kill easily at all, while Mario now got a move that he can land easily on all these characters that kills REALLY early.
Mario vs Samus was about even in vBrawl, and remains even in this game. It's the exact same matchup, with people dying about 40% earlier.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I think you just play Ganondorf far too technically, A2. He is not a technical character in the least. What you do with Ganondorf is bait and punish. You feint to make them react to something not even there, and then punish with a 20-damage attack.
I'm tired right now and unable to think further.
I'm tired right now and unable to think further.
A2ZOMG
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Ah, but Linkshot, I have very little technical skill. My playstyle is in fact entirely mindgames and matchup knowledge.
My style in general is in fact extremely bait oriented, due to how much time I've spent using this character, and due to my rather poor reaction time and technical skill in general.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHAo9hlpn0M
Judge for yourself.
My style in general is in fact extremely bait oriented, due to how much time I've spent using this character, and due to my rather poor reaction time and technical skill in general.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHAo9hlpn0M
Judge for yourself.
A2ZOMG
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908
Consider for a moment that Luigi's sweetspotted (on the backside or at his cap) Up-smash has knockback similar to Snake's U-tilt, and that Mario's Up-smash is only like 2% weaker. Then consider the advantage of doing it directly out of shield, and then charged Hyphen Smashes (Mario's properly timed Hyphen Smash slides 1/3 to 1/2 of FD). Yes, it's a very very powerful attack.
His D-smash kills at similar percents to his Up-smash, and gets 100x more lethal near the edge, not to mention the ability to do two Jabs into an unblockable Down-smash on almost the entire cast.
B-throw kills like...10% higher than Ness's, and Mario's Jab cancel I'm pretty sure is more reliable.
Mario has the best KO moves in BBrawl.
Consider for a moment that Luigi's sweetspotted (on the backside or at his cap) Up-smash has knockback similar to Snake's U-tilt, and that Mario's Up-smash is only like 2% weaker. Then consider the advantage of doing it directly out of shield, and then charged Hyphen Smashes (Mario's properly timed Hyphen Smash slides 1/3 to 1/2 of FD). Yes, it's a very very powerful attack.
His D-smash kills at similar percents to his Up-smash, and gets 100x more lethal near the edge, not to mention the ability to do two Jabs into an unblockable Down-smash on almost the entire cast.
B-throw kills like...10% higher than Ness's, and Mario's Jab cancel I'm pretty sure is more reliable.
Mario has the best KO moves in BBrawl.
Hey guys, sorry to post this, but i just cant seem to get this to work.
I have updated my wii to 4.2 sadly and i just cant seem to get this to load. I've placed all the files from the balanced brawl winzip archive into the sd card and nothing else, but it wont do anything different on the stage builder screen. Also if I try to open the sd menu on there the system freezes.
If there is a thread for this please point me there so I can quit being a bother. But any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
I have updated my wii to 4.2 sadly and i just cant seem to get this to load. I've placed all the files from the balanced brawl winzip archive into the sd card and nothing else, but it wont do anything different on the stage builder screen. Also if I try to open the sd menu on there the system freezes.
If there is a thread for this please point me there so I can quit being a bother. But any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
Did you delete all Custom Stages on your Wii? (If you haven't, and you want to keep them, just move them onto another SD card for storage. They can't be on the Wii during the Stack Smash operation or it won't work.)
NovaRyumaru
Smash Apprentice
A change that'd be great would be his d-tilt coming out a little faster, the range makes it a decent poke option but it comes out slow enough it's a bit too easy to dodge and punish, perhaps just reduce the ending lag on it so if you're spacing it right you'd be able to mvoe before they punish you.
His u-tilt coming out faster would be great but that imo would be a bit uneccesary as it's already a pretty good anti-air option or even for gimping on a target that's either too risky to chase off stage or that you know you can't hit without them making a error, such as Meta Knight who's likely just to Up-B you away, nado, or just a f-air. However, if it could put a grounded target IN the ground it'd be pretty awesome.
Also, most of Falcon's hitboxes aren't really that bad, great size just come out way too slow.
HolyNightmare
Smash Champion
Since we're talking about crappy moves, how about buffing ROB's fsmash a bit? That's like one of the worst fsmash in the game. D:
ぱみゅ
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Actually, current discussion was Mario lol
none of my friends plays well as Mario (including myself), so, I think I can't feedback on that, sorry
@ NovaRyomaru: Dtilt isn't even used in battle lol (mainly because Nair is safer, faster and you can actually keep aproaching), and as random fact, having it tripping was one of the most annoying moves on the Genesis update of BBrawl.
Falcon now is a killer character, and he does it very well imo, so Utilt like it is, is ok
@Hollynightmare: nah, ROB's is far the worst one, and anyways, is not even very recurrent in battle (another random fact, it can be angled better than most others Fsmash, and that's a good point for it).
EDIT: every comment in this post is merely my opinion.
none of my friends plays well as Mario (including myself), so, I think I can't feedback on that, sorry
@ NovaRyomaru: Dtilt isn't even used in battle lol (mainly because Nair is safer, faster and you can actually keep aproaching), and as random fact, having it tripping was one of the most annoying moves on the Genesis update of BBrawl.
Falcon now is a killer character, and he does it very well imo, so Utilt like it is, is ok
@Hollynightmare: nah, ROB's is far the worst one, and anyways, is not even very recurrent in battle (another random fact, it can be angled better than most others Fsmash, and that's a good point for it).
EDIT: every comment in this post is merely my opinion.
Mario kill percentages against another Mario with no DI from the center of Final Destination.
Up smash (top): 108%
Forward smash (side): 103%
Down smash (side): 109%
Back throw (side): 121%
Of course, DI will change some things more than others, but you can kinda look at the trajectories and get a feel for how much it will matter. For reference...
Ness bthrow (side): 116%
It should be noted that Ness's bthrow has a higher angle than Mario's bthrow I think (not a lot higher but higher) which means DI will have a bigger effect against Mario's (though probably only 1-2%). 5% is actually a pretty substantial. Of course, direct comparisons like this are silly because you also have varying growth and base which change which are more effective as you move closer/further from blast zones. I really, really want to stress that the utility of these numbers is somewhat limited, but for what they are, they're somewhat interesting.
So, yeah, Mario's kill power may be a bit above average after all, though really not very far. It's worth noting that Mario's most powerful kill move remains his unchanged fsmash; he just has some other options worth going for now (the smashes aren't that inferior, and the bthrow is a killing throw with all the good that comes with that).
Also, about R.O.B. (briefly), everyone seems convinced he's already near the top of the heap, and it seems plausible enough. Buffing him at all may be a bad idea; broken characters aren't cool. I suggest checking out R.O.B. in this in general; he's definitely not a character who has reason to complain.
Up smash (top): 108%
Forward smash (side): 103%
Down smash (side): 109%
Back throw (side): 121%
Of course, DI will change some things more than others, but you can kinda look at the trajectories and get a feel for how much it will matter. For reference...
Ness bthrow (side): 116%
It should be noted that Ness's bthrow has a higher angle than Mario's bthrow I think (not a lot higher but higher) which means DI will have a bigger effect against Mario's (though probably only 1-2%). 5% is actually a pretty substantial. Of course, direct comparisons like this are silly because you also have varying growth and base which change which are more effective as you move closer/further from blast zones. I really, really want to stress that the utility of these numbers is somewhat limited, but for what they are, they're somewhat interesting.
So, yeah, Mario's kill power may be a bit above average after all, though really not very far. It's worth noting that Mario's most powerful kill move remains his unchanged fsmash; he just has some other options worth going for now (the smashes aren't that inferior, and the bthrow is a killing throw with all the good that comes with that).
Also, about R.O.B. (briefly), everyone seems convinced he's already near the top of the heap, and it seems plausible enough. Buffing him at all may be a bad idea; broken characters aren't cool. I suggest checking out R.O.B. in this in general; he's definitely not a character who has reason to complain.
Yes i did. The only thing left is the stage that is downloaded when you sign on wifi. Does that need to go too? If so, how?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
You can set the Wii forward a day (AFTER TURNING OFF SMASH SERVICE)
Mit
Smash Ace
I support less ending lag on dtilt for Falcon. I don't know why someone compared it to nair, but situations where I could land a dtilt are not the same as situations I could land a nair.
Dtilt could actually be useful if it was a bit safer. As it is, it's never worth the risk, as you can always be punished if you whiff it. And if you land it, you get a nice pop into the air, but you can wait for a safer situation to try and do that with a different move. Oh, and the ending lag for the dtilt is so long that you usually don't even get to follow up on it.
The move itself could be useful. It very far range for Falcon's ground moves, comes out decently fast, and yes, can be good for poking at characters and whatnot, but as it stands it's not worth it. It could indeed be pretty useful, kind of just like Sonic's dtilt is now useful, and it's a change I'd like to see, and one of the only remaining positive changes I can even think of for Falcon (I still think he needs more, but figuring out what is the hard part).
As far as Mario, I think either usmash or dsmash should be nerfed a bit. I play the Falcon vs. Mario matchup a lot against a good Mario main, and it's a nightmare every time. I can win sometimes, but the match drags on for a very long time, and I usually just have to bait and punish, which means Falcon jumping around doing nothing for 80% of the match looking for an opening. Otherwise, Mario outclasses and combos the hell out of Falcon in the air, and that's after he hit him into the air with a decent ground combo that ended with an utilt string... He can rack damage very fast, and once you hit 100, he's got three very dangerous kill moves now, and a pretty great throw as well.
I would recommend dsmash, because that seems to be the most powerful and useful to me. As stated previously, it's incredibly deadly towards the edge of the stage. It has a low angle, comes out very fast, and will kill you very, very early. I'd recommend either lowering the power of it a bit, or making the angle a bit more loose, allowing opponents to DI a bit higher. Otherwise yes, he's a great character, but I think he's a bit too good in relation to the rest of the cast (whereas right now he seems very well-balanced against the higher tier characters).
Dtilt could actually be useful if it was a bit safer. As it is, it's never worth the risk, as you can always be punished if you whiff it. And if you land it, you get a nice pop into the air, but you can wait for a safer situation to try and do that with a different move. Oh, and the ending lag for the dtilt is so long that you usually don't even get to follow up on it.
The move itself could be useful. It very far range for Falcon's ground moves, comes out decently fast, and yes, can be good for poking at characters and whatnot, but as it stands it's not worth it. It could indeed be pretty useful, kind of just like Sonic's dtilt is now useful, and it's a change I'd like to see, and one of the only remaining positive changes I can even think of for Falcon (I still think he needs more, but figuring out what is the hard part).
As far as Mario, I think either usmash or dsmash should be nerfed a bit. I play the Falcon vs. Mario matchup a lot against a good Mario main, and it's a nightmare every time. I can win sometimes, but the match drags on for a very long time, and I usually just have to bait and punish, which means Falcon jumping around doing nothing for 80% of the match looking for an opening. Otherwise, Mario outclasses and combos the hell out of Falcon in the air, and that's after he hit him into the air with a decent ground combo that ended with an utilt string... He can rack damage very fast, and once you hit 100, he's got three very dangerous kill moves now, and a pretty great throw as well.
I would recommend dsmash, because that seems to be the most powerful and useful to me. As stated previously, it's incredibly deadly towards the edge of the stage. It has a low angle, comes out very fast, and will kill you very, very early. I'd recommend either lowering the power of it a bit, or making the angle a bit more loose, allowing opponents to DI a bit higher. Otherwise yes, he's a great character, but I think he's a bit too good in relation to the rest of the cast (whereas right now he seems very well-balanced against the higher tier characters).
A2ZOMG
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Holy, you're crazy. ROB's F-smash is really good. Just...everyone complains about it.
You can anti air with it like a *****, it is more disjointed than Marth's sword iirc, and it does pretty good damage. It's also pretty safe on block. Sure, maybe it's one of ROB's overall most situational moves, but it's still good. Oh and it says "**** you" to the Tornado (not that it needs to anymore really). I land this move a lot honestly.
AA, one of the things that you should notice is how easily Mario can work around stale moves. With FOUR above average kill moves that are all very easy to land provided he knows the situations to use them, he will kill you when you are at a high percent. If you pressure his shield too much, you will get Up-smashed or D-smashed. If he lands two Jabs, you will get D-smashed. Hell, if he lands a Jab cancel in general, you stand a good chance of getting annihilated by B-throw. If he predicts ANY spacing, he can F-smash you and up angled, it can kill you at like 90%. He has the best KO options in the game by far. No character in this game comes close to his overall KO power and ease of landing KO moves at the same time. Actually there are a few individual examples. Wolf's D-smash, Ness's B-throw, and G&W's F-air are good examples of really easy to land KO moves that are very powerful.
Mario's Up-smash kills King DDD at 128%. That is honestly broken, considering DDD is the hardest character in the game to kill vertically (D-smash actually kills him at 123% btw). Considering Mario is better at racking damage and is actually very good at not getting grabbed when played correctly, he probably beats DDD pretty solidly due to DDD's general inability to actually land any kill moves. Also, what people don't notice about Mario is his extremely long slide on properly timed Hyphen Smashes. I'm literally killing heavyweights at 105% with properly timed Hyphen Smashes that slide almost half of FD, and lightweights are getting killed at like 75% or something. It's truly ridiculous, and it slides faster than Luigi's Hyphen Smash, making it harder to react to when done correctly. The only reason you don't see this more is because most Mario mains have not bothered practicing the timing for this.
Mit is probably right that Mario's D-smash is most deserving of a nerf, considering how easily it gimps near the edge. It's essentially vBrawl Metaknight's D-smash for all practical purposes, except the strong hit is from the front, making it more formidable out of shield and from juggle setups, and if I recall, it has a lot more shield pushback too making it really safe on block. I counted only four characters who are able to block Mario's Jab1+2 -< d-smash combo, which is basically everyone in the sixth column (space animals and Captain falcon).
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
I agree as well, Mario just kills too reliablly and too early for someone of his size and speed.
Id say definitely tone down his D-smash and MAYBE a tiny bit of his U-smash and would probably leave his B-throw alone.
The only thing I would add to Mario at all is something having to do with Fireballs.
In a sense,
is similar to .
get many kills from gimping but has problems going for the kill of course to a much lesser degree than Sonic. This is something that should hold true for Mario in Bbrawl although much easier than vbrawl Mario.
Also After Mario can we talk about Sonic more cause like I stated before he is sorta similar t Mario in terms of killing. Like many people Id suggest a kill throw.
Id say definitely tone down his D-smash and MAYBE a tiny bit of his U-smash and would probably leave his B-throw alone.
The only thing I would add to Mario at all is something having to do with Fireballs.
In a sense,
is similar to .get many kills from gimping but has problems going for the kill of course to a much lesser degree than Sonic. This is something that should hold true for Mario in Bbrawl although much easier than vbrawl Mario.
Also After Mario can we talk about Sonic more cause like I stated before he is sorta similar t Mario in terms of killing. Like many people Id suggest a kill throw.
A2ZOMG
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Mario can score kills really easily when you are at a KO percent. His KO moves aren't hard to land.
Sonic on the other hand has no KO moves that have respectable applications. Well, he can try to F-smash mindgame, but he's a lot worse at it compared to Mario (F-smash is slower, has less range, does less damage/knockback). His kill moves in general are too slow and have too little power to be respectable. As Pierce states, if you don't dodge, he cannot kill you.
Sonic on the other hand has no KO moves that have respectable applications. Well, he can try to F-smash mindgame, but he's a lot worse at it compared to Mario (F-smash is slower, has less range, does less damage/knockback). His kill moves in general are too slow and have too little power to be respectable. As Pierce states, if you don't dodge, he cannot kill you.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
Well I was referring to vbrawl Mario. 8.5/ 10 times he 'll try to finish you with a F-Smash. I mean it has great range, but its often predictable.
Regardless thats not the case anymore.
Sonic is definitely predictable when it come to KOs. His F-Smash unlike Mario's telegraths itself too well and is slow for a smash with that little knockback. I would say you'd have to mindgame very well to land it.
I do want some Sonic mains to testify to this.
If spacies and Captain Falcon can avoid something, Sheik probably can too. If the opponent is on the ground and is Luigi, you have to watch for that too (remember he could be using DI down to counteract being hit up in the air in some circumstances... actually you really have to watch for DI down in general since it can change things you wouldn't expect). I'm skeptical of how guaranteed it is and really bet it's based on spacing and such (for instance, I bet jab1 has more than one hitbox with different properties, and I bet hitting the opponent out of the air has different effects from the ground). SDI will also mess it up no doubt.
That's just bringing something to consider. Interesting points from Mario on several fronts, and it's definitely some good stuff to consider. We have at least one mindreader brining up Sonic (he was my intent to be next... and still is), but let's give Mario a bit more time. The current discussion seems fruitful to me.
That's just bringing something to consider. Interesting points from Mario on several fronts, and it's definitely some good stuff to consider. We have at least one mindreader brining up Sonic (he was my intent to be next... and still is), but let's give Mario a bit more time. The current discussion seems fruitful to me.
rPSIvysaur
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Mario is near perfect but just need some Damage or KBG "tonedowns" on some of the overbuffed stuff such as D-smash and U-smash. He's basically the all around character that is good in nearly every single way. I'd have to say his MU with Lucas is probably 55:45 or 60:40 his favor in the current BBrawl (This isn't quite solid, but he really got everything he needed so he wins solidly in R-P-S and he now has really good kill power and it's hard to pressure his sheild now + cape ****)
Mit
Smash Ace
Yeah Mario can cape **** some characters pretty hard.
So, he's got usmash, dsmash, fsmash, bthrow, and against a rather large set of characters, some very strong cape **** options. That just seems like way too much. In comparison to a character like Sonic, or other characters without too many kill moves, you can usually know what to look forward to when you get to high percents.
But you can never do this with Mario. You could be expecting one kill move, but be mindgamed into any of four other strong options. It becomes very difficult avoiding the inevitable when facing Mario when you have a high damage percent. Especially with his fireball and jab cancel game.
Again, I wouldn't say too many nerfs are in order, but atleast one, recommended to dsmash.
yeah, i think with mario...the best way to go about this is to give him a lot of decent KO options, but none that are outstanding. i think it fits into what the character is all about. a ton of decent things, but nothing exceedingly powerful, or fast, or large.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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I agree Mario should have a rebalancing nerf, and at the same time, other rather powerful characters like Marth, G&W, Samus, Olimar, and ROB for example should have an important move checked over for toning down. (or of course, there is buffing other characters in response, which is probably a little more difficult)
Oh yeah and as for Marth, I should remind people that he can still 0-death space animals. Considering how much Falco was nerfed already by D-throw change, that's a little overkill for a matchup that was already pretty bad for Falco in the first place.
Oh yeah and as for Marth, I should remind people that he can still 0-death space animals. Considering how much Falco was nerfed already by D-throw change, that's a little overkill for a matchup that was already pretty bad for Falco in the first place.
yeah just make marth's dthrow stronger. he'll probably lose the grab to fsmash at low percent but whatever.
snake's dthrow should be weakened, it's just too good of a tech chase. susa apparently used it to chase a rob to 400%. i haven't messed around with it but from the sounds of it, rob's dthrow could be nerfed back a little bit.
snake's dthrow should be weakened, it's just too good of a tech chase. susa apparently used it to chase a rob to 400%. i haven't messed around with it but from the sounds of it, rob's dthrow could be nerfed back a little bit.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
For Ganon's Sake. but seriously Olimar is quite good he is similar to Marth matchup wise as he is very good all around with few at a disadvantage and even those are not too bad and was made better since certain characters got nerfed and he got a couple buffs.
He typically has the advantage of people with either: low range, priority, slow speed, or people with mediocre approaches.
Some advantages of Olimar
He is small, so he is hard to hit.
Has amazing grab range for a character of his size. Rivaling that of DDD and Charizard.
His Pikmin in general make many of his attacks deceptive and diverse.
Whistle Armor keeps him alive to a higher extent then what he was intended.
Can camp really well to the point of outcamping most campy projectile users.
Great aerial Mobility that complements his often long range.
above average Priority but I think that is usually Pikmin based.
Disavantages
He fairly light. 9th lightest I think. Whistle Armor helps with this.
His recover is virtually garbage, as a tether its usually short. HOWEVER he usually makes up for this with his mobility.
Soley dependant on Pikmin for nearly everything. Although a good Olimar should NEVER be without his plants.
Nuetral
Certain Pikmin used for certain attacks could either be great or decent.
I pretty sure that is it. He just needs some toning down like Mario does.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Also did anyone check out the new BBrawl Sig I made. V
Feel free to copy and paste. just wanted to make it more dynamic.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Olimar is a character that is extremely difficult for several characters to win against. Considering that the only change to him was in fact a buff...he's kinda clearly top tier.
For most purposes, he has the perfect camp game, and there is very little that characters like Ike, Bowser, or Ganondorf can do to work around it. He also kills REALLY STUPIDLY EARLY ON ALMOST ALL HIS MOVES.
Link I should point out is basically an inferior Olimar. He can camp, rack up damage, and kill really quickly, but he is largely outclassed due to his garbage grab and even worse throws. There is probably no matchup Link does better in compared to Olimar for the most part. Don't get me wrong, Link's improvements are very appropriate and make him a good viable character however.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
I actually sorta agree on the sentiment that Olimar might need some tweaking, solely for the fact that he is still pretty much the same brickwall to several characters as he was in vBrawl.
Though an Olimar main's feedback would be cool yo.
I don't have strong opinions regarding Mario. I would place him high tier in BBrawl, maybe top tier depending on how many I have listed in top. Talk about readjusting his buffs is okay, just not something I feel strongly about.
I don't know about ROB's new dthrow, but from the sounds of it it might need fixing?
Though an Olimar main's feedback would be cool yo.
I don't have strong opinions regarding Mario. I would place him high tier in BBrawl, maybe top tier depending on how many I have listed in top. Talk about readjusting his buffs is okay, just not something I feel strongly about.
I don't know about ROB's new dthrow, but from the sounds of it it might need fixing?
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Yeah, ROB's D-throw should have more growth rate. The combos aren't a huge problem, except for the fact he can do the one into Up-smash at kill percents. You could argue this helps him a lot against Metaknight however, but I dunno, I think it's already good enough his U-throw is such a good KO move.
Likewise, Snake's D-throw should be nerfed, in exchange for small buffs to his other throws.
Likewise, Snake's D-throw should be nerfed, in exchange for small buffs to his other throws.
JOE!
Smash Hero
what could we nerf on Oli?
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