Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[rPSIvysaur]

1.9.2 causes crash? That's news to me seeing I use 1.9.2 everyday...

Anyway, just look up 1.9.1 because appearently it won't "crash"

 

[phantomphungus]

I've been having trouble with that... I've been trying to do that for generations now, which is why I just asked for a version without the disable custom stages code. Because when I open up the .gct, the disable custom stages code is no where to be found, however there are millions of unknown codes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ivysaur would be so ridiculous if it were not weak offstage with the recovery change being significant anyway (it's weak out there now, but that's a bit improvement from the previous "horrible"). If Ivysaur gets joined off-stage by a competent edgeguarder like Meta Knight, Ivysaur is in trouble. If Ivysaur can make its moves to safety before they have physical time to get off-stage to it or they try to edgeguard Ivysaur from the safety of the stage, Ivysaur isn't in such a bad position. Ivysaur is a little character with big range and big damage potential, and history shows us those characters are inclined to work well. Ivysaur is also slightly heavy instead of very light like the other cases. All in all, Ivysaur seems to do his job in the team pretty well to me and is definitely extremely unique.

First, I will quickly address the statement that Ivysaur is a little character with big range and big damage potential, which is somehow always a winning combination.

Firstoff, Ivysaur is not small, so that part of the statement can be readily discounted. The other characters who you probably are trying to mention are Metaknight and G&W, who are also misconceived as small characters when they actually have rather wide rounded frames overall. G&W however is a small character when he's crouching though. Want a better example of a character who is small but not a lightweight? Mario.

Second, as for big range and big damage potential, let's just say Ike fails. Poor mobility, limited safe strategies, poor setups into kills, and a limited offstage and followup game makes him a bad character in vBrawl (while he's still unimpressive in BBrawl).

So how is it that Metaknight and G&W are successful characters (not to mention Marth)? Key thing is these characters move a lot faster, and have MUCH less ending lag on moves that matter, whether it is kill moves, poke options, or pressure tools. Furthermore, these characters have good followups, which when compounded on massive damage potential, becomes ridiculous.

I should add that Ivysaur isn't necessarily always heavier, as a well-placed fire attack can put a quick end to her.

So basically Ivysaur as I was saying is like vBrawl Ike with the failures of a tether grab, but not terrible at spacing, and with a mediocre projectile to randomly throw out. All in all pretty bad, but not bottom tier bad. You can annoy your opponents a bit with B-airs and Bullet Seed and throw out Razor Leaf at mid-long range, and you have little else that stands out besides a few gimmicky kill moves.

If Ivysaur's recovery was somehow extremely good while keeping her onstage game exactly the same, she would probably be mid tier. Decent overall, but not overpowering. The only characters who can claim to get away with a bad recovery and be good in this game are Olimar, and Link imo. Link is inferior to Olimar due to his grab being worse however, but he sorta makes up for that with the benefits that come with a Z-air and some very versatile projectiles, including ones that are very good for gimping.

Lastly, I'd like to know why Ganon's Jab only does 9 damage maximum, which is exactly the same as Ivysaur's B-air, and yet it is the only Jab in the game that gets punished on spotdodge, not to mention it is too slow to be viable as a spotdodge option.

 

[JOE!]

had a silly idea now that you brought up ivy's recovery:

is it possible to alter the momentum altering of a move? For example, make ivy's Dair not only make her fall a tad slower, but perhaps even push her upwards a bit, to act almost like Yoshi's Egg Toss when in the air?


It may be far-fetched, but if it could be done it not only gives Ivy a method of making up for some shortcomings with recovery, but makes Dair a tad better in that it's almost fire and forget (safer)

 

[Kitamerby]

had a silly idea now that you brought up ivy's recovery:

is it possible to alter the momentum altering of a move? For example, make ivy's Dair not only make her fall a tad slower, but perhaps even push her upwards a bit, to act almost like Yoshi's Egg Toss when in the air?


It may be far-fetched, but if it could be done it not only gives Ivy a method of making up for some shortcomings with recovery, but makes Dair a tad better in that it's almost fire and forget (safer)

It's possible, and it's actually really easy to do, but they won't do it. :\

 

[NovaRyumaru]

had a silly idea now that you brought up ivy's recovery:

is it possible to alter the momentum altering of a move? For example, make ivy's Dair not only make her fall a tad slower, but perhaps even push her upwards a bit, to act almost like Yoshi's Egg Toss when in the air?


It may be far-fetched, but if it could be done it not only gives Ivy a method of making up for some shortcomings with recovery, but makes Dair a tad better in that it's almost fire and forget (safer)

I like that idea, good change without being overpowering.

So basically Ivysaur as I was saying is like vBrawl Ike with the failures of a tether grab, but not terrible at spacing, and with a mediocre projectile to randomly throw out. All in all pretty bad, but not bottom tier bad. You can annoy your opponents a bit with B-airs and Bullet Seed and throw out Razor Leaf at mid-long range, and you have little else that stands out besides a few gimmicky kill moves.

And don't forget Ivysaur can combo from a b-air into a d-air at low-mid %s similarly to Marth though a bit harder to get the sweetspot.

All and all Ivysaur's decent but requires significant forthought to your actions, much like Bowser, Falcon, and Dedede.

Captain Falcon I feel however got a little left out much liek Bowser did, namely in poke options or reliable kills. Would be quite nice to see Falcon's knee be safe on sweetspot contact with shields. Unless they perfect shield it should knock them back a bit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The PT isn't bad in this game, but I don't see him in the top 10...assuming Squirtle cannot be abused an entire match. That's pretty much the only thing I'm arguing. The biggest buff is probably increased switch speed, and then Ivysaur not getting autogimped by a person who edgehogs (which means Ivysaur is now better than Charizard). You're pretty much going to struggle to kill without Squirtle however, since he's actually able to get in consistently and then grab for the KO.

Charizard imo got left behind, although I guess you could attempt to stall time to refresh Squirtle due to his weight and superior recovery to that of the other two, although he's the worst off overall in terms of pressure and defense options.

As for Captain Falcon, tbh I don't know what is best for this character. He has some of the worst hitboxes in the game, although his frame data and mobility is decent enough. On paper, I would assume he's fine under a very technical player, but it's hard to tell at this point. His grab pummel buff and throw buffs, not to mention the buff to his Up-B out of shield however are VERY good buffs.

 

[Eyada]

Lastly, I'd like to know why Ganon's Jab only does 9 damage maximum, which is exactly the same as Ivysaur's B-air, and yet it is the only Jab in the game that gets punished on spotdodge, not to mention it is too slow to be viable as a spotdodge option.

Better question: What's wrong with Ganon having a terrible jab that is outclassed in every way by Ivysaur's B-Air?

There are lots of terrible moves in this game. Samus has a bad jab and an astoundingly bad grab, Fox has a worthless D-Tilt, R.O.B.'s Side-B is a joke, Dedede's jab is crap, Sheik's D-Air isn't even half as useful as Ganon's jab, and so on.

A character having terrible moves isn't a bad thing; in fact, it's the opposite. Having several weak (or even useless) attacks allows a character to have other extraordinarily powerful attacks as compensation without the overall character becoming too powerful. (e.g.: Fox and his lovely Up-Smash.)

If you're trying to argue that, due to Ganon's overall moveset and play-style, he absolutely needs a better jab to be viable, then just say so. Don't beat around the bush and waste time comparing his jab to Ivysaur's aerials; that comparison is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Ganon's jab is a pile of crap compared to Ivy's B-Air; there are lots of attacks that fit that description --why not improve all of them as well if you're going to boost Ganon's jab?

All that really matters is whether or not Ganon, as a whole, can be made viable. If he can be made viable without a decent jab, then he doesn't need one.

 

[TP]

Is someone complaining about Ganon's Jab? Dtilt>Jab is a true combo on 38 of the 39 characters. That's all the use from Jab that I need to be happy.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

The PT isn't bad in this game, but I don't see him in the top 10...assuming Squirtle cannot be abused an entire match. That's pretty much the only thing I'm arguing. The biggest buff is probably increased switch speed, and then Ivysaur not getting autogimped by a person who edgehogs (which means Ivysaur is now better than Charizard). You're pretty much going to struggle to kill without Squirtle however, since he's actually able to get in consistently and then grab for the KO.

Charizard imo got left behind, although I guess you could attempt to stall time to refresh Squirtle due to his weight and superior recovery to that of the other two, although he's the worst off overall in terms of pressure and defense options.

As for Captain Falcon, tbh I don't know what is best for this character. He has some of the worst hitboxes in the game, although his frame data and mobility is decent enough. On paper, I would assume he's fine under a very technical player, but it's hard to tell at this point. His grab pummel buff and throw buffs, not to mention the buff to his Up-B out of shield however are VERY good buffs.

What he needs is some of his hitboxes coming out a little faster. 2 of which would be great are The Knee and his d-tilt. His d-tilt could also use some altering to make it a better setup for an aerial follow up or finish. The knee coming out a couple frames faster would also make it a much better ledge drop option, or w/e it's called when you drop from a ledge and jump back onto the stage.

Another neat change to Falcon that'd be epic is one of the hitboxes of his u-tilt putting a grounded target in the ground much like Yoshi's f-air. Unsure if this would shift any matchups in his favor or not, but I know Falcon likes targets stuck in the ground.

 

[Eldiran]

@NovaRyu: Speeding up attacks is something of a last resort for BBrawl, so such changes are very far-fetched for this project.

Is someone complaining about Ganon's Jab? Dtilt>Jab is a true combo on 38 of the 39 characters. That's all the use from Jab that I need to be happy.

Out of random curiosity, what's the 1 character it doesn't combo on?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Better question: What's wrong with Ganon having a terrible jab that is outclassed in every way by Ivysaur's B-Air?

There are lots of terrible moves in this game. Samus has a bad jab and an astoundingly bad grab, Fox has a worthless D-Tilt, R.O.B.'s Side-B is a joke, Dedede's jab is crap, Sheik's D-Air isn't even half as useful as Ganon's jab, and so on.

A character having terrible moves isn't a bad thing; in fact, it's the opposite. Having several weak (or even useless) attacks allows a character to have other extraordinarily powerful attacks as compensation without the overall character becoming too powerful. (e.g.: Fox and his lovely Up-Smash.)

If you're trying to argue that, due to Ganon's overall moveset and play-style, he absolutely needs a better jab to be viable, then just say so. Don't beat around the bush and waste time comparing his jab to Ivysaur's aerials; that comparison is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Ganon's jab is a pile of crap compared to Ivy's B-Air; there are lots of attacks that fit that description --why not improve all of them as well if you're going to boost Ganon's jab?

All that really matters is whether or not Ganon, as a whole, can be made viable. If he can be made viable without a decent jab, then he doesn't need one.

Is someone complaining about Ganon's Jab? Dtilt>Jab is a true combo on 38 of the 39 characters. That's all the use from Jab that I need to be happy.

When you start looking at how none of Ganondorf's attacks are good against those who react properly with shields and spotdodges, I think it's worthwhile to complain how Ganondorf is the one character who is cursed to be without any viable options for dealing with defenses. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if his grabs weren't complete garbage, or if he had a respectable poke with 20 or fewer frames of ending lag, which he doesn't have.

Oh like seriously, his Jab has at least 25 frames of ending lag, and it is legitimately his best clearout option. That ending lag is the exact duration of the average spotdodge, which assuming that if Ganon Jabs at the same time his opponent spotdodges, he's at like a 9 frame disadvantage, and even if his opponent spotdodged a little late, Ganondorf's options are so slow that he'll just be easily grabbed before any of his other moves comes out.

In short, Ganondorf is completely screwed by proper shielding and spotdodging, and his options are so terrible that Ganondorf only ***** himself when he spotdodges, except in Ganon dittos. If you just constantly poke him, there is nothing he can do either, due to his grabs sucking and due to not having any pokes which he can use to counter with.

Keeping this in mind, I'd like to know where the logic is for other attacks to be allowed to do just as much damage as Ganon's moveset, and be over 9000 times safer. It just isn't right or balanced. Yeah, you can try to tell me that Ganondorf has these combos, but he's also very susceptible to getting comboed himself, and it's MUCH more difficult for Ganondorf to actually set up his combos due to his lack of mobility, speed, and safety. I've had matches where my opponents literally would not get hit by Ganon's tilts or Flame Choke due to how bad Ganondorf is at landing moves, or doing anything when his opponent plays conservatively and defends on reaction.

I know from practical experience that if I could actually viably pressure defenses with Ganondorf, say with N-air becoming a viable poke, Samus would become a winnable matchup if I didn't get Up-Bed or shieldgrabbed every single time I hit her shield. Similarly, a good poke would let me get in G&W's face and break his flow and viably create openings for mixups, rather than just betting on him running into spaced F-airs. All Ganon really needs is one move that is viable on defenses, and he would be a balanced character. He can trap and followup quite well when he creates an opening (his air game is GREAT minus the fact that his hixboxes on autocanceled aerials and his landing lag are HORRIBLE), but he can't legitimately create openings, which is why he is still the worst character in this game.

 

[blakinola]

BBrawl side event this weekend at the DSO Biweekly: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197124

Will post results and stuff when it's available

 

[TP]

Out of random curiosity, what's the 1 character it doesn't combo on?

I can't remember, lol. I'm right, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If I recall, that one character is Squirtle.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

@NovaRyu: Speeding up attacks is something of a last resort for BBrawl, so such changes are very far-fetched for this project.

True, but would be great to see Falcon's d-tilt come out a bit faster and alter the trajectory to make it a setup for the knee or perhaps some juggling or whatever.

And again, knee should have a little less landing lag, too easy to shield and punish. Especially when it hits the shield. >_o

 

[Linkshot]

You could have the Knee do massive shield damage.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The knee isn't meant to be used to kill that often, but more to gimp when flubbed and set up flub combos. You're just lucky if you get the knee in.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

You could have the Knee do massive shield damage.

This would be awesome, Falcon likes broken shields.

The knee isn't meant to be used to kill that often, but more to gimp when flubbed and set up flub combos. You're just lucky if you get the knee in.

Um, no? Yes the knee can be used to gimp but it's also one of Falcon's most lethal attacks when you land the sweetspot, problem is that sweetspot is more or less worthless to people with a good defensive game and if you hit a shielded target you're going to get punished pretty good.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You just stated why it's used to gimp and set up flub combos

 

[A2ZOMG]

Landing Falcon's Knee sweetspot is like landing Marth's tipper F-smash. For the most part, it's a completely unviable strategy unless your opponent COMPLETELY screws up.

 

[Linkshot]

Solution: Never knee a grounded opponent.

EDIT: Yes, and humans screw up. We aren't TAS.

 

[phantomphungus]

Uhh... so... is there or is there not a .gct WITHOUT the disable custom stages code? I'm sort of left in dead space here...

if not, then could somebody make on for me? Because I can't find the code to disable in the gct file.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zgngylym2uy/PhantomPhungus.gct

There now stop axeing for it

 

[phantomphungus]

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zgngylym2uy/PhantomPhungus.gct

There now stop axeing for it

Thank you! Thank you again! But you could have been a little nicer about it... sheesh. Sorry I got on your nerves.

Also, this should go up on the front page so you never have to get somebody like me again, and so that it's made a little easier for those already with homebrew.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol, sorry if I came across mean... It's just that no-one else took the time to try to help you. It only took me two seconds to check the boxes.

@ Nova - You can't expect a kill move to be completely safe on sheild and easy to land, otherwise your asking for another Metaknight. Again, if you want to play a game where it is easy to do knee and stuff play Brawl+. Because Knee won't be safe in this game without breaking it because of BBrawl physics. Just get used to the Brawl+ physics and you'll get what you want.

 

[phantomphungus]

oh, okay, thanks. :3 sorry I misinterpreted. :D

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Lol, sorry if I came across mean... It's just that no-one else took the time to try to help you. It only took me two seconds to check the boxes.

@ Nova - You can't expect a kill move to be completely safe on sheild and easy to land, otherwise your asking for another Metaknight. Again, if you want to play a game where it is easy to do knee and stuff play Brawl+. Because Knee won't be safe in this game without breaking it because of BBrawl physics. Just get used to the Brawl+ physics and you'll get what you want.

Doesn't need to be easier to land, but the sweetspot shouldn't be so easily punishable on shield aside from perfect shielding imo.

It's quite easy to land when you know what you're doing, against anyone that's trying to jab if you space right you can knee right through it. Nothing quite as lol as reverse jumping over a Snake that tries to jab you and nailing him right in the back of the skull with the knee...

The only characaters I have a hard time kneeing against a jab are Meta, Ike, Link, and Toon Link. Technically Marth too but I don't see people try to jab with him much unless they're trying to bait you.

*off topic*
Btw, ever get the fixed Smash card I made for ya?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Again, you're asking for physics where shielding is discouraged, because if some shields your sweetspot knee in the current physics where sheild is highly encouraged when the enemy is in the air. I still think you should try brawl+ and get used to the physics because it sounds like a game you'd enjoy, because it discourages sheilding/camping.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Again, you're asking for physics where shielding is discouraged, because if some shields your sweetspot knee in the current physics where sheild is highly encouraged when the enemy is in the air. I still think you should try brawl+ and get used to the physics because it sounds like a game you'd enjoy, because it discourages sheilding/camping.

Played B+, don't care for it much, they kind of messed up with Yoshi on it in that he lacks hitstun on any of his tilts thus can easilly be knocked out of tilt juggling or setup, he also has rather pitiful hitstun on his aerials too. Also the hitstun hurts Yoshi's DI significantly so someone like Fox, MK, or Pikachu can pretty much have their way with me regardless where i try to DI. However with Falcon and anyone else I play I can DI out of combos significantly easier. >_>

I would say that shielding is a little more potent than it should be on Brawl in my opinion, namely for characters that already have superb offensive options like MK, Marth,Mario.

Shielding also hurts Fox way too badly as you can shield grab him out of pretty much everything, and due to his fall speed he's fairly easy to follow up on. And of course other out of shield options are extremely difficult to avoid for him. At least with Falcon I can usually stay at max range and try to poke at them with b-airs, d-tilts.

 

[Steeler]

Firstoff, Ivysaur is not small, so that part of the statement can be readily discounted.

ivy is average sized

Second, as for big range and big damage potential, let's just say Ike fails. Poor mobility, limited safe strategies, poor setups into kills, and a limited offstage and followup game makes him a bad character in vBrawl (while he's still unimpressive in BBrawl).

yes, ivysaur with even average air speed would have a very good zoning game. fair could be a more effective approach. nair itself is honestly better than wario dair imo, but the mobility hampers its usefulness. and bair would be safe on shield in more situations, not just when ivy is an inch away from landing on the ground. this is because the move is incapable of auto cancelling and has 30 cooldown frames after the second whip hit on frames 13-14 (the move lasts for 45 frames total). this is often overlooked, and pretty much makes rising bair a non-option on grounded opponents. even if the bair hits, the opponent has a 20 something frame advantage, although i'm not sure how the damage buff affects that.

So how is it that Metaknight and G&W are successful characters (not to mention Marth)? Key thing is these characters move a lot faster, and have MUCH less ending lag on moves that matter, whether it is kill moves, poke options, or pressure tools. Furthermore, these characters have good followups, which when compounded on massive damage potential, becomes ridiculous.

i'd elaborate, but everything here is fairly true. ivysaur has some decent follow ups out of nair and dthrow/fthrow, but that's about it. nair nair uair!

I should add that Ivysaur isn't necessarily always heavier, as a well-placed fire attack can put a quick end to her.

ivysaur is quite average, weight-wise. the vertical survivability is decent but the horizontal one is overrated since the air mobility is so bad and ivysaur isn't very floaty (this is why olimar's recovery is better). the fire thing is overrated, it's a knockback multiplier of only 10%.

 

[ShermantheTank]

My roommates a TO, and I convinced him to change his tournament to BBrawl:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254434

Hope some of you are near NE for this!

 

[Linkshot]

Nice Sherman!

Also, for the record, Marth's REAL jab is really Dancing Blade.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Nice Sherman!

Also, for the record, Marth's REAL jab is really Dancing Blade.

True, but with Falcon it's easy enough to hop through/over and give them a knee to the face with good timing.

Thought often I'll end up sweet spotting the knee and getting hit by the third swing of the dance.

 

[Lokee]

Also, for the record, Marth's REAL jab is really Dancing Blade.

I kinda laughed at that. Id bet Marth mains are like "There is an A jab!??"

That reminds me, so what are we going to do about the "Top" Chars. in BBrawl. are we going to make everyone else as good as them or are we going to make them like everyone else? As I see it BBrawl changes are based on a reward and risk system.Low tiers generally got buffs in their rewards such as captain falcon and I think top chars. should get less reward such as for characters like Marth. This does not mean I want to make a nerf buffet, im just saying. Anyway

On Ivysaur, I think she is suppose to be the long range sorta campy of the Pokes. but the lag on many of her moves prevents this. So I think either increase the speed of razor leaf, increase the damage, or basically make it similar but not to the degree of Link's arrows so it actually slows people down enough to take advantage of and a Vinewhip with more knockback wouldnt hurt either.

On Ganon, I think he is still pretty good IMO but like some been saying earlier namely A2zomg pointed out, still needs a relatively safe move to dish out against his hardest matches. Snake is a prime example in vbrawl. He has Safe actually longish range moves including his grab and yet has the same if not better Ko attacks namely in this Uptilt. What im saying is with Ganon give more bang for his buck. (until he's broken)

On a similar note I find it that Ganon has the only one hit jab in the game and it can be shielded alot better then a majority of the jabs in the game, but thinking about it, speeding his jab might completely change the timings of his followups but add a hardcore GTF off.
Also I think its kinda stupid that people can grab me from my D-tilt but this is something that i have learned to live with for the most part.
Modify the following for a slightly safer ganon:
My Candidates for Ganon's relative Safe moves: Jab or Nair
My Candidates for Ganon's approach move: Fair or Nair

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shielding also hurts Fox way too badly as you can shield grab him out of pretty much everything, and due to his fall speed he's fairly easy to follow up on. And of course other out of shield options are extremely difficult to avoid for him. At least with Falcon I can usually stay at max range and try to poke at them with b-airs, d-tilts.

Y'know, I've been saying that for quite some time...but apparently nobody but one of the best players in the world, teh_spammerer, agreed with me.

Oh yeah the classic argument against that is Fox can laser camp basically, but he can't actually get a kill or create a legitimate opening in singles without taking a risk, which is his real problem.

Probably the best thing that ever happened to Fox was people going through the trouble to ban edgestalling.

Fox however is good in doubles though, I should point out. Getting infinited **** comboed should be less of an issue with a competent partner with him, and his ability to score random KOs easily is valuable.

 

[CarVac]

Regarding approaching a shield:

I find that my characters are the kinds that rarely get shieldgrabbed out of aerials (I play G&W, Olimar (who hardly approaches at all), and Ness). Ness has the aerial maneuverability to move to the opponent's backside and the floatiness and quick aerials to precisely attack the top of a shield before jumping out of harm's way, and GAW has the turtle to attack safely from out of most grab ranges.

Characters with no projectile, but only slow, laggy, short-ranged aerials that don't have tons of shieldstun are at a huge disadvantage here (ganon is the prime example that everyone discusses).

My point is that to make him capable of approach, he must have a move that has less lag. Perhaps fair? If bair becomes his approach move, it'll become completely predictable (and unless it's nearly unpunishable like the turtle, that in and of itself makes it nearly useless in high-level play). At least fair would allow for different possibilities on approach. But: some move NEEDS LESS LAG.

For example, if only shieldstun is increased on his Fair, it still would not be a viable approach move. The opponent WILL (if they're smart) sidestep or roll to avoid it. Ganon will then be punished during his landing lag. Same with nair, or any "improved" aerial whose landing lag is not sped up. Without decreasing the lag of these attacks (and reducing the power so they're not TOO good), they would still be useless as approaches.

For this reason, I say that Ganon needs some speed changes. If possible (I'm not familiar with what can and can't be done), Fair could be sped up (landing-lag wise), decreased in knockback, but increased in shieldstun, to make a semi-viable approach move.

Lokee mentioned having a safe GTFO move, and mentions speeding Jab. In this case, I would say yes, but nerf its knockback simply because it could become too safe a kill move, rather than a GTFO move like other characters' (like Ness's) jabs.

NOTE: I don't play as Ganon much, and don't purport this to be absolute truth, but this is what I think could help to balance the game.

 

[JOE!]

@ falcon discussion from earlier:

sure he doesnt have "great" frame data/etc, but i think he is one of the shining examples of what BBrawl is trying to acheive, along side Link.

He is actually quite viable IMO now that he simply has safer options (specials except the PAWNCH) and more reward on alot of moves. It simply made falcon...better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon has an approach that is safe on block. A properly spaced N-air.

His 22% Up-B is also something to watch out for. You don't know how many times my friend lands this move on me out of shield. It's devastating.

Honestly Falcon would be amazingly amazingly good if his hitboxes weren't crap, but because he has a lot of mobility and some stuff that actually has low enough landing lag to be spaced safely, I think for the most part, he's just extremely technical.

On the other hand, I suspect he does need another buff, but what would really help him work around his horrible hitbox problems?

 

[JOE!]

Lets see...

what exactly is he faltering at?