Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[smashkng]

Does the explanation mean DK can do guaranteed grab release combos on other characters or that he escapes even faster from grabs than in vBrawl?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

hey is there a way to install this with an SD card bigger than 2gb? It's the only one I have and I dont really want to go buy a 1gig one.

No. It won't recognize a SDHC, so you kind of need and SD card about 1 gig. Just go to wal-mart and get one for like, 15$.

 

[JOE!]

Does the explanation mean DK can do guaranteed grab release combos on other characters or that he escapes even faster from grabs than in vBrawl?

it means that when he releases an opponent it is faster.


as for the character sthat were mentioned earlier, I think i'll go a tad more in depth:

: Needs a way to deal with campers and a way to approach, making Firebreath nigh unpunishable could alleviate this issue (make it a safe option)

: Needs a solid way to finish an opponent. As it stands, he is a good hit-and-run damage racker, but he has no way to capitalize on this strategy until rediculous %'s. Perhaps increasing KB on his Nair (rarely used as is) so it is more like Pika's or MK's Nairs, or giving him a power-throw.

: needs something sped up to deal with the fact that even though he has great reward for his risk, the risk is what allways comes into play due to his lagginess.

: not sure if he really would need anything, but perhaps fix his Uthrow as someone suggested?

: without his viscious grab game he is really less of a threat, not sure what to do to him exactly though, perhaps make his ground game a tad better?

: not sure, a better GTFO move?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I started appreciate Zelda's Ftilt a lot. It has a very good priority, it's safe, due to decay it can be combo'ed each time easier, and helps you to refresh your kill moves. Yet, doesn't help her at all; its priority is good but isn't enough for GW's turtle/key nor Match Tornado, so characters like those are still hard to hit.

No, Zelda doesn't need a GTFO move, because she can't really do a followup, and even if Din's Fire pressures, it can be punished so easy.

A faster aerial DF won't affect her matchups directly, but will allow her to live a little more because it is a good momentum cancelling (and I think that living at high % is a feature that most killer characters must have).



In other thread, DDD will rely on techchasing a lot, and due to it depends mainly on the techchaser, it's hard to tell if he really needs help. =S

 

[John12346]

Out of curiosity, is this making any progress at becoming mainstream?

I'd really love it if it happened.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm hoping it does.

 

[JOE!]

the problem is that it isnt a flash chnage like Brawl +.

it is just a bunch of mostly subtle changes

 

[deepseadiva]

Thought I'd show you guys.

I made a joke: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252755

 

[Alondite]

Yeah I agree, and the small subtle changes don't seem to be enough. I mean really, what is +1% on Fox Illusion going to do?

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love what you guys are doing. Brawl+ and what those guys are doing is fine, (I play that as well) but if I want to play a faster game with canceling aerials, more hitstun and less hitlag I'll play Melee. I like Brawl for what it is, but really hate how broken it is (especially considering I'm an Ike main).

I agree with not changing the physics and movement of Brawl, but I think to achieve the balance you are looking for, you're going to have to alter more attacks' speed and hitbox size. Why? Well, because no matter how much you buff a characters' moves, you still have to HIT with them to do anything, and some characters just have a hard time even landing a blow on others. Jiggs vs MK for example. MK outspeeds and and outranges Jiggs on virtually every attack, so how does Jiggs even stand a chance? Some big priority hitboxes could help her out considerably.

I think in order to achieve balance with your current philosophy you're going to have to make some more major changes to some characters' moves. More than just a % or two damage and slightly altered knockback strength and angles. It's going to take some major improvements in all those areas for a lot of characters to really be equally viable. Ganon for example is clearly better, but still has so much trouble getting in. He's probably dead before he even gets a chance. I honestly think his best upgrade is his powered-up pummel, no joke. And on the opposide side, MK and Wario I think still need nerfs. I mean Wario got a pretty massive buff from the removal of grab-release combos, and yet all he got for nerfs was a small damage decrease on moves he's really only going to be using to kill anyway, so damage is irrelevant. As for MK, his combination of range, speed, and multiple jumps is still just too overwhelming for most of the cast to handle.

Again, I really love what you guys are doing. I like Brawl for Brawl, but I think to really achieve balance you are eventually going to have to mess with attack speed and hitboxes, and I really don't think that either of those will change the essence of what Brawl is at all, which I believe stays true to your objective, so why not?

I've logged about 75 hours or so on BBrawl so far, and I'm thinking of posting just some general character observations when I get a chance.

 

[Eldiran]

Don't forget, the simplicity of a mere change to damage % can be misleading. Damage directly influences priority (more % means it's more likely to power through other hits) and it directly influences knockback by a quite significant amount.

@MenoUnderwater:
Nice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Alondite, you kinda share my sentiment, but I must correct you on a few things.

Firstoff, it is important to consider that Wario's F-smash and U-air KO approximately 25% higher than they used to DUE to the damage nerfs (which means Wario should rely more on up-angled F-tilt for kills). At any rate however, he is definitely top tier with this broken mobility alone.

Also, it's important to not understate the nerf of Metaknight's Tornado. Metaknight's Tornado is a unique move in that it ignores the rules of poke wars. With its ability to trap eliminated, that alone makes Metaknight much more manageable since this means poking him back is a much more viable strategy. The reduced power of his Up-B and D-smash is pretty drastic, one of the most drastic knockback nerfs in the game overall, meaning he must rely more on aerials to get kills. Although yes, he's definitely still a top character.

At any rate, I think the best character in this game is Marth, due to his combination of excellent safety and KO power. The main reason MK and Snake appeared to beat him in high level play was due to having more KO power, which has more or less become a more balanced playing field for Marth. DDD no longer wins against Marth either due to removal of CG.

And yes, Ganondorf still sucks a lot. Until he gets one move that can be used as a consistent approach, he's still bottom tier.

 

[Linkshot]

I think MK needs less damage on his aerials, honestly.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle needs a buff on his dthrow

 

[Stealth Raptor]

pikachus qac needs to do like 20 damage so it cant be outprioritised.

 

[Linkshot]

<.< Squirtle might need a weakened dThrow, honestly...siphon that power to Zard's.

 

[JOE!]

what PT could use is a wind effect on the pokemon switch...to you know, actually give the new pokemon room to not get KOed?


Also, I agree with Alon:

some characters may need more drastic changes to work better, but for the moment, it seems to be a great start just buffing KB and Damage, I mean, look at Link or Mario

 

[John12346]

What I mean to say is... doesn't BBrawl actually have a relatively high chance of becoming mainstream due to its simplicity to load? You don't need HBC for this patch, and setup time is negligible, so...

Since the game mechanics were changed to [for the most part] even out the playing field between the characters, it would be viable for legit [maybe mandated!?] tournament play, correct?

Also, since Meta-Knight suddenly has three of his moves debuffed, other characters can finally start to hit the scene without fear of being totally destroyed by a random MK, like in normal Brawl. In other words, the meta-game of BBrawl would very likely prosper to a high extent.

So, what we have in our hands is a game that is:
- easy to load (no HBC needed)
- more balanced than Brawl (not saying it's perfectly balanced, but it's way closer than Brawl is)
- Meta-Gamey, not Meta-Knightey (ohohoho)

I honestly think a poll should be put up about this sometime soon to see what the public thinks about this, and whether or not a conclusive decision can be made on whether or not BBrawl becomes official.

And if it didn't work out, we could at least say we tried, right?

 

[Kitamerby]

I got an idea for Ganondorf.

Go to SubAction 63 in PSA.

See that little thing where it says Synchronous Timer: frames=35?
Change that to Asynchronous.

kthnx.

 

[Linkshot]

Something tells me that will break him.

SubAction 0x63...using my memory...nAir?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I got an idea for Ganondorf.

Go to SubAction 63 in PSA.

See that little thing where it says Synchronous Timer: frames=35?
Change that to Asynchronous.

kthnx.

I thought they already realized that it still wouldn't autocancel in a short hop though...

(f-air)

 

[Linkshot]

Ah. Okay. I figured it was an aerial.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

AA and Thinkaman were already considering fixing his fair since it became known that his fair suffered from that coding error. At least, that's the impression I got when I linked AA to the thread in Ganon's section about it.

So I guess it's being considered, but who knows if it does come out in the end.

 

[adumbrodeus]

At any rate, I think the best character in this game is Marth, due to his combination of excellent safety and KO power. The main reason MK and Snake appeared to beat him in high level play was due to having more KO power, which has more or less become a more balanced playing field for Marth. DDD no longer wins against Marth either due to removal of CG.

Actually, that's wrong, MK still wins against Marth, only slightly less so, and it's for the same reasons that you were talking about.

Ftilt still basically beats all his aerial approaches on reaction. Tornado still beats all of his approaches except run/jump ->counter which is incredibly punishable (though MK has to use it in fewer situations because it's easy to DI out of). MK's dtilt still makes it so he'll tack on those first few percents reliably.


Marth still is screwed over by MK's camp game.


Snake, the main issues is really that Marth gets screwed in the counterpick stages.

 

[JOE!]

...you know it is harder for both of these guys to ultimatley get the kill on marth now, right?

 

[Mit]

And yes, Ganondorf still sucks a lot. Until he gets one move that can be used as a consistent approach, he's still bottom tier.

Even if he had that, would you really place him in a higher tier anyways?

Also, why can't I pick custom stages

Also, can we really not create new custom control schemes?

As mentioned earlier, no custom control schemes could hurt the whole 'easy-peezy tournament setup' scheme.


EDIT: Oh yeah, when I blasted Link through Corneria and caused the graphics to tear all over the place? We watched it again, this time the replay sped up dramatically when it happened, causing both characters to desync.

If we can get it back to the screen tearing thing again perhaps I'll try and record it.

 

[Kitamerby]

I thought they already realized that it still wouldn't autocancel in a short hop though...

(f-air)

Who cares? Do it anyways. Anything would help at this rate, lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even if he had that, would you really place him in a higher tier anyways?

One timing change to Ganondorf would indeed make him rise at least a tier.

See, the thing about Ganondorf is he lacks any reliable move for damage dealing. By reliable, I mean that it can be used safely as a poke or approach. Reducing the lag of N-air, or increasing his shieldgrab range is what Ganondorf needs most. However, because he can't use those moves safely, he's forced to rely on kill moves to punish and deal damage, and thus he is horribly hurt by stale moves.

By giving Ganondorf a safe consistent damage dealer, I wouldn't be surprised if he jumps to high tier. He can destroy people very effectively when given the chance. After all, the only thing Ganondorf lacks is a consistent damage dealer.

adumbrodeus, you have good points. However I find it pretty hard to believe that Marth gets "screwed" by Metaknight's camping after watching Mikehaze's Marth. While Marth's poke game is indeed inferior to MK's, his punish game is more solid, at least due to Dancing Blade alone, which is like the best out of dash move in the game.

 

[Alondite]

Don't forget, the simplicity of a mere change to damage % can be misleading. Damage directly influences priority (more % means it's more likely to power through other hits) and it directly influences knockback by a quite significant amount.

@MenoUnderwater:
Nice.

Ah ok. I thought that priority was independent of damage, because I seem to get beat out on clash of weaker moves all the time. It must just be the way the hitboxes are interacting.

Alondite, you kinda share my sentiment, but I must correct you on a few things.

Firstoff, it is important to consider that Wario's F-smash and U-air KO approximately 25% higher than they used to DUE to the damage nerfs (which means Wario should rely more on up-angled F-tilt for kills). At any rate however, he is definitely top tier with this broken mobility alone.

I wasn't aware that damage affected knockback that significantly. I don't know too much about the technical workings of Brawl, (plus I've been out of the competitive scene for a bit, though BBrawl is doing a good job of bringing me back to it) I just know that [x] move at [x%] is going to KO [x].

Also, it's important to not understate the nerf of Metaknight's Tornado. Metaknight's Tornado is a unique move in that it ignores the rules of poke wars. With its ability to trap eliminated, that alone makes Metaknight much more manageable since this means poking him back is a much more viable strategy. The reduced power of his Up-B and D-smash is pretty drastic, one of the most drastic knockback nerfs in the game overall, meaning he must rely more on aerials to get kills. Although yes, he's definitely still a top character.

Yeah, I know that it's a pretty significant nerf, but despite the fact that it doesn't deal as much damage now (or at least not regularly), it still has incredible versatility. It eats through a ton of moves and transforms him into a huge, quickly-moving hitbox that is tough to avoid. It makes approaching safely very difficult.

 

[adumbrodeus]

...you know it is harder for both of these guys to ultimatley get the kill on marth now, right?

Yes, but the same fundamental issue still applies in both match-ups, you're dealing with a situation where Marth should never be able to approach MK and gets counter-pick screwed on an otherwise very even match-up.


The fact that they kill later helps a little but doesn't deal with the systemic problems.

 

[smashkng]

Lack of chain grabs and locks means great news for characters like Fox, Wolf, Ganon, Falcon, DK and Bowser.
Fox and Wolf's bad matchups were all because of this (except MK). This also goes with DK.
Captain Falcon and Ganon, 2 other characters extremely vulnerable to chain grabs in vBrawl, this along their buffs in moves also means much.

And is the banana lock removed in BBrawl?

 

[Linkshot]

Banana Locks are gone.

Systematic problems have never held through. After all, we're all human.

(Average reflex is 16 frames, kthx; mine is 12)

 

[JOE!]

Yes, but the same fundamental issue still applies in both match-ups, you're dealing with a situation where Marth should never be able to approach MK and gets counter-pick screwed on an otherwise very even match-up.


The fact that they kill later helps a little but doesn't deal with the systemic problems.

actually, seeing Marth's nigh unparalleled ability to punish, him lasting longer in a match should mean he gets more chances to do things to MK or Snake, and potentially turn the tables in his favor even if MK and Snake still have stuff on him, Marth now has more oppertunities throughout a match to counter-attack this.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think marf needs narfed...

He doesn't have to deal with gay stuff and his bad MU's got nerfed and nothing bad happened to him. He is way to good at punishing spacing and has too much range that most of stuff that characters have for spacing range is easily beat out by Marf's sword.

 

[Alondite]

Well that and DED out of a dash is just too good. If anything of Marth's needs to be nerfed I'd say it's DED.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Banana Locks are gone.

Systematic problems have never held through. After all, we're all human.

(Average reflex is 16 frames, kthx; mine is 12)

They hold true against Ganondorf, who has to place a bet on a 16 frame grab and PRAY that it works when his opponent shieldcamps him.

What Marth probably needs is a tiny nerf on the fourth hits of Dancing Blade. And then you give him a tiny damage increase on moves that he almost never uses like U-throw and B-throw.

Wait, I just remembered, doesn't Falco get 0-deathed by Marth?

 

[Alondite]

I don't think it's the fourth hit of DB (Right...Roy's was DED, my bad) that needs the nerfing. It just comes out so fast, and once you get hit once you're getting hit by the rest of them. I'm not sure what needs to be done to balance it, but I feel like it needs something. I'd need to play (and fight) Marth a bit more to feel it out.

As for Falco being 0-deathed by Marth...I don't think so. Then again it's very likely that he can be and I just don't know about it heh.

 

[Eldiran]

They hold true against Ganondorf, who has to place a bet on a 16 frame grab and PRAY that it works when his opponent shieldcamps him.

What Marth probably needs is a tiny nerf on the fourth hits of Dancing Blade. And then you give him a tiny damage increase on moves that he almost never uses like U-throw and B-throw.

Wait, I just remembered, doesn't Falco get 0-deathed by Marth?

What do you mean, exactly, by 16-frame grab? Ganon's grab boxes show up on frame 6 for standing, and 10 for dashing. (9 for turning.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do you mean, exactly, by 16-frame grab? Ganon's grab boxes show up on frame 6 for standing, and 10 for dashing. (9 for turning.)

Firstoff, you're not landing a shieldgrab or a dashgrab on ANYONE that doesn't screw up. They don't have enough range. Specifically Ganon's shieldgrab. His Dashgrab has OK range, but Ganon's run speed is too terrible to take advantage of it.

Also, add 1 to those numbers. Ganondorf's grabs all start 1 frame slower than average.

It takes 16 frames for Flame Choke to start up, and this is by far Ganondorf's most viable grab in terms of speed and range ratio. It's the most likely of his grabs to be able to punish a mistake. Read that carefully when I say "mistake".

You know something is horribly wrong when Ganondorf's best grab is easily avoided (and thus punished) on reaction.

In short, Ganondorf doesn't have any viable grabs. Well, his pivot grab isn't terrible, but again, you're betting on people making a spacing mistake.

The only realistic way Ganondorf can land a grab without his opponent majorly screwing up is by powershielding into a dashgrab, which is good, but not easy to do at all.

 

[Eldiran]

Firstoff, you're not landing a shieldgrab or a dashgrab on ANYONE that doesn't screw up. They don't have enough range. Specifically Ganon's shieldgrab. His Dashgrab has OK range, but Ganon's run speed is too terrible to take advantage of it.

Also, add 1 to those numbers. Ganondorf's grabs all start 1 frame slower than average.

It takes 16 frames for Flame Choke to start up, and this is by far Ganondorf's most viable grab in terms of speed and range ratio. It's the most likely of his grabs to be able to punish a mistake. Read that carefully when I say "mistake".

You know something is horribly wrong when Ganondorf's best grab is easily avoided (and thus punished) on reaction.

In short, Ganondorf doesn't have any viable grabs. Well, his pivot grab isn't terrible, but again, you're betting on people making a spacing mistake.

The only realistic way Ganondorf can land a grab without his opponent majorly screwing up is by powershielding into a dashgrab, which is good, but not easy to do at all.

'Kay. I was only asking about the frame number really. I know Ganon has bad times grabbing, and I understand your points. I do think you underestimate the power of prediction, but I'll leave those arguments to people who are more a part of the competitive scene. I don't have a healthy supply of skilled opponents, so I doubt my skills are as high as the level BBrawl is designed for.

Anyway, the frame numbers I gave are actually correct. Unless I'm misinterpreting what I see in PSA somehow, the grab collisions literally come out frame 6 and end frame 8 (10 and 12 respectively for dash).

 

[Linkshot]

Sure you're not looking at a Brawl+ PSA?