Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[rPSIvysaur]

What Bowser needs is like reduced landing lag on Up-B. The hard landing lag on his Up-B is BULL****.

Bowser has the worst "decent" recovery in the entire game. Thanks to his high top air speed, he has viable distance. In terms of everything else, it's pretty much bottom tier. His recovery is mad predictable for multiple reasons. He has next to no safe options to throw out while recovering that have respectable priority, and his Up-B is one of the easiest in the game to punish due to its lack of vertical distance, not to mention bad landing lag if he chooses to land on stage and rather low priority. As I recall, his air dodge (not to mention Bowser's dodges in general) is one of the laggier ones in the game, which doesn't help much either when you need to get lower. Oh right, and as for trying to get lower, keep in mind he's never going that low since his vertical distance on recovery sucks.

Aside from rather underwhelming safety on attacks in general (I personally think Bowser's U-tilt in particular is unnecessarily laggy), Bowser from what I can tell really suffers against people who have gimp tools that can punish his recovery. It doesn't really take a brain to be able to hit Bowser when he's offstage, so if you can hit him with a move that gimps (or kills), he's basically a goner once he's offstage, and it's not terribly hard to rack on massive damage on Bowser offstage if your character has a good offstage chase game. Mario for example beats Bowser in vBrawl because of the Cape getting pretty close to guaranteeing gimps offstage, and Ganondorf similarly finds Bowser to be one of his better matchups due to how easily he can spike Bowser out of recovery or otherwise punish it hard (although Ganondorf lacks fundamentally reliable pokes or approaches that would otherwise secure a solid advantage against Bowser).

tl;dr: Bowser's recovery sucks too much. Take away some of the bull**** landing lag on it at least since that is easily one of his more fundamentally significant problems, limiting his already pretty terrible options for getting back on stage safely when the stage is not battlefield.

And off-topic, but I recently spiked Nezumi's Pit to death with Bowser's D-air in vBrawl lmao.

This isn't Bowser's main problem. Bowser mains already practice not getting gimped and sure they may be SOL when they get gimped, but his problem is approaching. When you break down Bowsers game it's incredible hard for him to approach. Basically any character with a projectile better than fire breath can camp him and he'll basically lose a lot of MU's that way. He actually does decent in MU's that he doesn't approach, take for example MK, some people argue that it's pretty even because Bowser can actually play defensive in this MU. If anything Bowser deserves a better approach.

Also, A2Z, you seriously ask for way too many timing changes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now that I think about it, I've only asked for timing changes on like 6 characters at most. That isn't a lot.

Ganondorf, Ness, Bowser, maaaaaaaybe Lucas, Ike, those are the only ones that really matter at this point.

I probably could complain about more characters, but these characters for the most part are the ones that pretty blatantly need a speed change on a core move (Ike's Quick Draw really doesn't count...seriously. If you're not going to directly approach with it anyway).

Then a character like Sonic, he doesn't actually need a speed change, but rather, he is equally crippled by a lack of kill moves with respectable frame data, so what he needs is something like one of this throws having more respectable knockback.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

thing is nova, does yoshi need it with his epic recovery allready?

Not so much for recovery purposes but would be an excellent way to egdehog or to throw people off. Especially when you look at the range on Yoshi's neutral B, not too sure that'd help his recovery.

 

[Mit]

Not so much for recovery purposes but would be an excellent way to egdehog or to throw people off. Especially when you look at the range on Yoshi's neutral B, not too sure that'd help his recovery.

I don't think a tether-grab is something you can just add into Brawl, especially only using codes.

Also, can't Yoshi move back off the ledge, throw an egg, and grab it again in the middle of the throwing animation? His edgehogging options aren't terrible...

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

I have a question and hope it can be answered since i have to go right now i'll read it after.

Does hombrew, gecko, or balance brawl have a lifespan? since i'm still new to hacking, i just want to know if you can play as much as you want. i do everyday, does the SD card get affected as well? Thanks.

BTW, some people said that you cannot combo with sheik's u-air after you dash attack, well i can i dunno why some say they cannot, its not that hard really.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Sort of, but the life span of an SD card is a long time. It takes a lot of card readings before the SD card gets worn out. If you're really worried about it, don't use music hacks and you should be fine.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

I don't think a tether-grab is something you can just add into Brawl, especially only using codes.

Also, can't Yoshi move back off the ledge, throw an egg, and grab it again in the middle of the throwing animation? His edgehogging options aren't terrible...

Indeed he can, occasonally though when you throw the egg you'll get a tad of momentum from it, resulting in death.

Usually have that happen when trying to return to stage after interfering with recovery though.

 

[JOE!]

how have you died from the egg-gaurd?

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

Sort of, but the life span of an SD card is a long time. It takes a lot of card readings before the SD card gets worn out. If you're really worried about it, don't use music hacks and you should be fine.

ok thank you, i dont worry because i dont use musci hacks only textures and stages.
oooh...i textured zelda's final smash and i go the .pac file, if i change the name to fitsheik, would it still work with the original file as fitzelda?

 

[Mit]

ok thank you, i dont worry because i dont use musci hacks only textures and stages.
oooh...i textured zelda's final smash and i go the .pac file, if i change the name to fitsheik, would it still work with the original file as fitzelda?

You'll be playing Super Smash Bros. 4 on Nintendo's next home console before your SD card dies on you. Even if you put tons of hacks on it, music hacks, everything.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

how have you died from the egg-gaurd?

Doesn't happen much, but enough to rethink using it often. Drop, fire an egg only to move backwards just a bit out of range of the ledge and fall to my doom. Q_Q

 

[Mit]

Doesn't happen much, but enough to rethink using it often. Drop, fire an egg only to move backwards just a bit out of range of the ledge and fall to my doom. Q_Q

Where is your double jump? O_o

 

[Steeler]

for all it's worth, i really agree with a2 about giving a sonic throw decent (150 or 160+%) kill power

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the problem is sonic can get a grab so easily at times, i think it may be a bit much for what is trying to be accomplished. im not saying sonic is going to be broken good, but idk if it really helps in the way it should

 

[Fuujin]

What Bowser needs is like reduced landing lag on Up-B. The hard landing lag on his Up-B is BULL****.

Bowser has the worst "decent" recovery in the entire game. Thanks to his high top air speed, he has viable distance. In terms of everything else, it's pretty much bottom tier. His recovery is mad predictable for multiple reasons. He has next to no safe options to throw out while recovering that have respectable priority, and his Up-B is one of the easiest in the game to punish due to its lack of vertical distance, not to mention bad landing lag if he chooses to land on stage and rather low priority. As I recall, his air dodge (not to mention Bowser's dodges in general) is one of the laggier ones in the game, which doesn't help much either when you need to get lower. Oh right, and as for trying to get lower, keep in mind he's never going that low since his vertical distance on recovery sucks.

Aside from rather underwhelming safety on attacks in general (I personally think Bowser's U-tilt in particular is unnecessarily laggy), Bowser from what I can tell really suffers against people who have gimp tools that can punish his recovery. It doesn't really take a brain to be able to hit Bowser when he's offstage, so if you can hit him with a move that gimps (or kills), he's basically a goner once he's offstage, and it's not terribly hard to rack on massive damage on Bowser offstage if your character has a good offstage chase game. Mario for example beats Bowser in vBrawl because of the Cape getting pretty close to guaranteeing gimps offstage, and Ganondorf similarly finds Bowser to be one of his better matchups due to how easily he can spike Bowser out of recovery or otherwise punish it hard (although Ganondorf lacks fundamentally reliable pokes or approaches that would otherwise secure a solid advantage against Bowser).

tl;dr: Bowser's recovery sucks too much. Take away some of the bull**** landing lag on it at least since that is easily one of his more fundamentally significant problems, limiting his already pretty terrible options for getting back on stage safely when the stage is not battlefield.

And off-topic, but I recently spiked Nezumi's Pit to death with Bowser's D-air in vBrawl lmao.

If you do this, then Zelda needs it as well.
Especially once you finish her recovery aerial.

 

[xatm092]

Zelda has the same problem as Bowser that if you go too far underneath the edge you're in big trouble, but while at the same level as the edge, she has more options than Bowser (and a smaller hitbox to get gimped on >_>). Her aerials are nowhere near as laggy as Bowser's, and usually you can't 100% predict where Zelda is going to be appearing with her overB, as opposed to Bowser who will usually only have one option.

tl;dr Zelda's recovery is bad, Bowser's is worse.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Where is your double jump? O_o

Half the time it isn't there after trowing an egg. ^_^;

 

[JOE!]

Half the time it isn't there after trowing an egg. ^_^;

you are a yoshi player using tap jump fist off...

second, you egg-gaurd without sliding? (touching the ground)

 

[NovaRyumaru]

you are a yoshi player using tap jump fist off...

second, you egg-gaurd without sliding? (touching the ground)

Actually I don't use tap jump, just never remember to put my usual name on. And was more refering to ledge dropping and egg tossing.

 

[JOE!]

....why would you drop fom the edge and egg toss?

you do the reverse egg throw slide....it tosses an egg and mid animation to ledge-hog...

 

[Linkshot]

Planking.

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

OK. Does anyone know where I can find a list of the color #'s for the characters? In order to change their colors? Also does anyone know what the name for the practice stage is to change it's texture. EX: Final Destination is STGFinal.pac. So what would the online practice stage be?

Also like I said last time Luigi is someone who should get his power toned down just a tad. I feel he's a bit overpowered and I find that a bit cheap considering he can land about 3 hits within only one jump.

 

[MysticKenji]

OK. Does anyone know where I can find a list of the color #'s for the characters? In order to change their colors?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225642

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225642

Cool, Thank You!

 

[Mit]

You really should keep all questions pertaining to texture hacking and whatnot in that texture hacking thread. It doesn't really have anything to do with Balanced Brawl. It's just a short code that enables file replacement, and Balanced Brawl happens to have a version of its release with this code already included because it's such a popular code.

 

[ぱみゅ]

well, looks that really AA and Thinkaman are really not planning on change ANYTHING right now. If still like that, this thread will be virtually dead a while.

Now, I'm only hope that the tournament on nov 7th helps with matchup data, and for notice that there are some things that MUST be fixed on the next relase (like Lucas PK fire, that may doesn't need buffing at all...).

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you do this, then Zelda needs it as well.
Especially once you finish her recovery aerial.

True, Zelda's recovery is unnecessarily terrible.

Bowser's recovery however is still worse. Zelda's Up-B can be semi-unpredictable, and Naryu's Love has decent priority + a few frames of invincibility as I recall.

Although you can still pressure her a lot offstage, and all you need to do to punish her recovery is threaten to edgehog it so you can get a guaranteed hit as she goes to land on stage.

Pierce suggested Din's Fire not putting her in freefall, which I believe is the best solution.

 

[JOE!]

Hey, are there different codes for the aerial and ground versions of Bowser's fortress?

Perhaps giving him longer duration super armor, in the air only, could alleviate the preditcability...

 

[Eldiran]

Technically, unless Bowser or Zelda are failing in certain matchups that hinge on their poor recovery, neither of these things are problems that need to be solved.

 

[ぱみゅ]

"helping things they're already good" is a good idea. They solved the link's recovery problem with the arrows.

BBowser doesn't worry about recovery at all, because he hurts opponents A LOT (I haven't used a Dair properly yet, but I'm still training on it).

But again, zelda is still having just the same trouble against small characters. Yes, sheik racks up the damage, but doesn't matter if she can't get a good hit against them, which is still her major problem; also, the Z/S idea itself means that zelda WILL be fighting at high %, so she MUST worry about recovery.

 

[smashkng]

As I have seen in BBrawl matches, Ganon's recovery should really be improved. Giving Wizard Kick another jump or Gerudo being like Diddy's side b.

But the increase of knockback of grounded Wizard helps Ganon a lot.

 

[xatm092]

Pierce suggested Din's Fire not putting her in freefall, which I believe is the best solution.

Oh hell no. It had crossed my mind, but then I thought about it, and it's just too evil. Zelda being able to snipe the person trying to meet her in the air with fireballs is just ridiculous. Suddenly, assuming she's hit high up enough, she can snipe wherever she wants to land a few moments before landing there, including the edge.

((Unless the lag at the end of din's fire is actually more than it looks like))

 

[Flayl]

Here's what VBrawl Bowser really needs if he ever wants to be close to Diddy's level:

- Faster grab (it's 9 frames in VBrawl)
- If you're taking out grab-release options then:
-- Less knockback on UThrow to allow follow-up FAir on faster than average fallers
-- More knockback growth on BThrow so it becomes an okay kill move near the ledge of a stage
- Less ending lag on firebreath
- Super Armor on DAir, base knockback of shockwave increased just enough to stay out of Marth's FSmash range.
- Faster fist withdrawal on FTilt (less ending lag)
- Less ending lag on UpB
- Ungimped FSmash (increase knockback of 2nd hit to bring it line with other heavies)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Here's what VBrawl Bowser really needs if he ever wants to be close to Diddy's level:

- Faster grab (it's 9 frames in VBrawl)
- If you're taking out grab-release options then:
-- Less knockback on UThrow to allow follow-up FAir on faster than average fallers
-- More knockback growth on BThrow so it becomes an okay kill move near the ledge of a stage
- Less ending lag on firebreath
- Super Armor on DAir, base knockback of shockwave increased just enough to stay out of Marth's FSmash range.
- Faster fist withdrawal on FTilt (less ending lag)
- Less ending lag on UpB
- Ungimped FSmash (increase knockback of 2nd hit to bring it line with other heavies)

Our version of Bowser is basically completely different from this, but it kinda rocks. He can kinda trade hits with anyone and win, and by "anyone" I mean "including Snake". I kinda worry we overdid it with the Fortress; it's melee Fortress all over again except this time Bowser also has other moves (Flying Slam is also an incredibly good move, unchanged but seriously just very good). The series of small damage buffs really cement Bowser's role like this and matter way more than some people think (they add up); playing as him recently, I really had to think "this character is being seriously underrated right now just because he's not exciting, just like Lucas".

You also forgot the biggest thing of all Bowser needs and we gave him, and that's "less susceptible to chaingrabs (it's not just King Dedede's, several others are less effective on him now)". I mean, the main reason Bowser is pretty bad in standard Brawl is that, as cool as his grab release gimmicks are, the things others can do to him out of grabs are a million times worse. Like, get grabbed by King Dedede, Ice Climbers, or Wario, and the Bowser dream just kinda dies. Then you have tons of shorter but still very sucky cgs on you from guys like Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Falco, and Ike. That's not a complete list either... I think the amount Bowser goes up just from having to deal with this a whole lot less is pretty non-trivial.

 

[JOE!]

Our version of Bowser is basically completely different from this, but it kinda rocks. He can kinda trade hits with anyone and win, and by "anyone" I mean "including Snake, but not Yoshi"

fixed that for ya.... (yoshi's tilts are broken now)

 

[Fuujin]

Oh hell no. It had crossed my mind, but then I thought about it, and it's just too evil. Zelda being able to snipe the person trying to meet her in the air with fireballs is just ridiculous. Suddenly, assuming she's hit high up enough, she can snipe wherever she wants to land a few moments before landing there, including the edge.

((Unless the lag at the end of din's fire is actually more than it looks like))

Ummm, this has already been done.
I told them they needed to add this to the change list on front page but no one listened I guess.
And the lag on dins fire is pretty bad this doesn't really help her recovery unless shes above stage.

 

[Flayl]

Our version of Bowser is basically completely different from this, but it kinda rocks. He can kinda trade hits with anyone and win, and by "anyone" I mean "including Snake". I kinda worry we overdid it with the Fortress; it's melee Fortress all over again except this time Bowser also has other moves (Flying Slam is also an incredibly good move, unchanged but seriously just very good). The series of small damage buffs really cement Bowser's role like this and matter way more than some people think (they add up); playing as him recently, I really had to think "this character is being seriously underrated right now just because he's not exciting, just like Lucas".

Your changes to Bowser do nothing for Bowser, he still has the same exact same problems as he did in VBrawl. Like I said in a previous post, if you really want him to rise in potential you have to give him those changes. Buffing fortress by 1 or 2% doesn't make it "Melee fortress all over again", wtf.

You also forgot the biggest thing of all Bowser needs and we gave him, and that's "less susceptible to chaingrabs (it's not just King Dedede's, several others are less effective on him now)". I mean, the main reason Bowser is pretty bad in standard Brawl is that, as cool as his grab release gimmicks are, the things others can do to him out of grabs are a million times worse. Like, get grabbed by King Dedede, Ice Climbers, or Wario, and the Bowser dream just kinda dies. Then you have tons of shorter but still very sucky cgs on you from guys like Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Falco, and Ike. That's not a complete list either... I think the amount Bowser goes up just from having to deal with this a whole lot less is pretty non-trivial.

These are all changes to OTHER characters, not Bowser.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So you're saying that Donkey Kong in vBrawl can deal with DDD as any other person can?

 

[Flayl]

How on earth are you inferring that, lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well you're saying that chaingrabbers affect everyone, but you're saying that it affects everyone equally in vBrawl by saying that it's just a change to other characters. Obviously some characters benefit more from the lack of chaingrab (DK, Wolf). So saying that it doesn't affect your character is bull