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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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Flayl

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I didn't say it doesn't affect my character. It obviously affects my character. However, it's a change done by TONING DOWN ANOHTER CHARACTER, not making Bowser more impervious to chaingrabs. Also the only chaingrabs that matter against Bowser are Dedede's, Wario's and IC's, which I assume are removed from EVERYONE, not just Bowser.

As I've mentioned before, chiangrabs aren't the main reason Bowser is low tier in VBrawl.
 

Linkshot

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Bowser doesn't need a faster grab. 9 frames is not something that can be humanly reacted to.

Also, yes it was, Flayl. Fox would be freaking S Tier if he didn't get gayed by his fall speed.

Oh look. He doesn't in bBrawl. GG cast.
 

JOE!

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I didn't say it doesn't affect my character. It obviously affects my character. However, it's a change done by TONING DOWN ANOHTER CHARACTER, not making Bowser more impervious to chaingrabs. Also the only chaingrabs that matter against Bowser are Dedede's, Wario's and IC's, which I assume are removed from EVERYONE, not just Bowser.

As I've mentioned before, chiangrabs aren't the main reason Bowser is low tier in VBrawl.
Bowser is mid tier :p

anywho, even if it doesnt change bowser directly, it is still a perk that these things are not held against him, therefor he is technically better now that those characters have to worry about fighting a buffed bowser, instead of trying to grab him.
 

A2ZOMG

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Bowser doesn't need a faster grab. 9 frames is not something that can be humanly reacted to.

Also, yes it was, Flayl. Fox would be freaking S Tier if he didn't get gayed by his fall speed.

Oh look. He doesn't in bBrawl. GG cast.
Fox still gets gayed by his fall speed since virtually anyone can combo him to mid percents really easily, and there are a lot of limits on his approach due to his fall speed, which gives him very few ways to safely poke at defenses besides spamming lasers at long distances.

Fox getting infinited is the same as Wario getting grab released, except fundamentally, this doesn't stop Wario from being tournament viable, while Fox on the other hand is clearly very limited in his poke options. Once you learn Fox's spacing tricks, he pretty much gets destroyed very easily due to how unsafe he is on the offensive, and how easily he gets killed.

Fox in a way is a lot like Ness. He can score the KO very easily. He's not very good at everything else. And in this game, having fast falling speed is very bad unless you're basically King DDD, since in King DDD's case, it helps him edgeguard.

Bowser honestly doesn't need a shieldgrab when his Up-B does basically the same thing, but never gets interrupted by Jabs, destroys crossups, and can be made infinitely safer.

However, you should really listen to Flayl, because he's spot on in addressing Bowser's lack of safe poke/approach options.
 

JOE!

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shaving end lag off of fire breath could work some magic...

it essentially forces a reaction you can abuse, but are usually too late to abuse
 

A2ZOMG

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Considering that Firebreath is not a viable attack in high level play in vBrawl, I believe that's an appropriate suggestion.

Why is it not a viable attack? It's unsafe on HIT.
 

JOE!

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It's viable as a spacer....but then you are back at square one trying to approach or defend <_<


it also has a niche as an edgegaurd, albeit situational
 

Amazing Ampharos

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You do realize that increasing damage also indirectly increases knockback growth, right? It's not a small one either. Bowser's initial hit of Whirling Fortress kills just like in melee with +2% damage; that is a huge increase. A good example of how extreme it can be was a pre-release version with a +6% damage on Captain Falcon's knee. It was killing outright at 50% and lower from the middle of Final Destination with that; it was a horrible mistake we made underestimating how much it matters (the current version is +3% and still way stronger than the standard Brawl version). The "knockback compensation" on Yoshi's tilts were another example; in an early version, we basically ruined all follow-up ability they had by adding damage.

In general, doing more damage is a very big deal anyway; people don't seem to appreciate it. Even if we totally ignore Bowser being better at killing (remember he was quite good at it before!), he's still doing the raw damage to kill a clean hit earlier than before per stock. That probably doesn't sound impressive, but think about it. A good hit is netting you let's say 15% on average (I'm ignoring things like landing just jab1 and then they escape; for someone like Bowser, those aren't significant contributing factors). This may be an underestimation for Bowser because of just how damaging he is, but let's run with it. Let's say they, on average, die at about 135%. That means before you're killing in about 9 hits. Killing one good hit earlier means you kill in 8. That's about 11% faster killing (actually a little more), and since killing three times is what matters in this game, that means you are just flat out that much better. So if standard Brawl Bowser is 100% in worth, this one is 111% in worth right off the bat. Given that Brawl's balance is actually pretty good, being a 111% as good version of yourself is a really great thing and would make any character move up the tier list a non-trivial amount. Then consider that Bowser also kills somewhat lower now thanks to the secondary effect of the damage buffs on several very reasonable kill moves for him (utilt, ftilt, usmash, Whirling Fortress, fair) so really the improvement is bigger than that.

Did you seriously claim those other chaingrabs don't matter? A bunch of them are 0-50% (like Ike's I believe). That is not character ruining, but it sure does suck. You are taking damage equal to 3-4 good hits out of being grabbed once at 0%. I mean, as opposed to what happens when King Dedede grabs you I guess it's good (since that actually is character ruining), but when you consider that the amount of damage that grab "should" do is probably more like 10%, you see that it's actually a pretty big deal. That extra 40% is the difference in dying outright between Bowser and Jigglypuff, and she has a better recovery than you. Do you like being "as light as Jigglypuff" in a bunch of matchups? I suppose they aren't direct changes to Bowser, but you have to consider everything together. It's pretty clear the changes to other characters are net in Bowser's favor, and it's not a small benefit. I mean, indirect buffs are buffs regardless, just like some characters see help in the possibility of an expanded stage list that gives them a net positive opportunity (not sure how the new stage dynamics work for Bowser in partiuclar, probably not a big effect in either direction).

"Why Bowser is low tier in standard Brawl" is a silly concept anyway. Every character who is low tier in standard Brawl (including Bowser) ultimately is for one reason, and it's the same reason for all of them. The amount of virtue they have (good things minus bad things) is less than what the characters better than them have. Bowser's negatives are horrible cg problems that create some hopeless matchups in some cases and just make things somewhat worse in others, a general issue with just getting smacked around (mostly due to his size), a general sloth and lack of safety, problems dealing with certain projectile lockdowns, and a mediocre recovery. Bowser's positives are extremely high weight (highest in the game), excellent KO power, excellent damage potential, above average range and priority, a generally really good frame 1 invincible move that can be used OoS, a few grab release gimmicks, and the multitude of good things Flying Slam brings into his game (it's something special enough to warrant specific mention). Of course there's more on both sides since this game is rather complex, but let's simplify and leave it at this. In Balanced Brawl, Bowser loses one of those positives, probably the least important one listed. All of the others get even better. From his negatives, the cg issue becomes quite small, small enough as to not really deserve mention. So now Bowser suddenly has zero hopeless matchups; even if some are bad, having 100% of his matchups in the "winnable" group makes him about a million times better since he's actually plausible to be your only character now (you can use Bowser for whole sets without people just laughing at you and going DDD). It can be hard to appreciate him suddenly being a lot better because his dynamic isn't really very different, but that sum, the thing that really matters, is appreciably higher. Lucas saw a similar rise; actually our designs for Bowser and Lucas follow a lot of the same ideas (very similar dynamic but just plain more rewarding, combined with fewer stupid abuses against them).

I think A2 especially is guilty of the assumption "characters with safety issues are always bad". It may be the case that no good characters in standard Brawl have particular safety issues, but that is more a case of "it happened to work out that way" morso than anything. Safety issues are just a negative; they're not a guaranteed character ruiner any more than any other negative. It's just something to be taken in light of the positives. The whole idea of a heavyweight in general assumes safety issues. They use their weight to not die until they've taken more hits than a typical character, and they kill early and do lots of damage so the opponent effectively dies in fewer hits than typical. They tend to have above average range and priority as well (at least Bowser does) so they don't suffer in spacing games so much; the safety issues are the main things that just give the opponent more opportunities to land hits than they get... but isn't that how it should be? If the heavyweights had the same number of opportunities, they'd just be broken. The same opportunity with a better pay-out would make them flat out better than characters who don't have their combination of bulk and might. When balanced right, their lower number of opportunities and their need for fewer opportunities to accomplish the same result exactly cancel out and they end up equal in worth to the other characters. This is what I've been saying about Ganon all along, but Bowser is a way, way less extreme version of that anyway since Bowser is way harder to lock down and shut out, and he can just ignore the whole idea of safe poking by using that fast unblockable that does 18% whenever he wants. Whirling Fortress also lets him largely ignore the defensive disadvantages of that sort of design; he only has to worry about his safety issues for half of his game (the offensive part) instead of all of his game like Ganon does. DK is fairly close to Bowser design-wise really, but DK takes some extra speed/safety in exchange for some lower damage output (though not really lower direct KO power) and fewer special tricks (DK doesn't have anything as big to him as Whiriling Fortress and Flying Slam are to Bowser). Yeah, there is more to it of course, but I don't think in a simplified and general sense what I'm saying is inaccurate. It's just that Bowser is a heavyweight, and he has the highs and lows that come with it.

Sorry if this kinda went on, and I really don't want to be dismissive (but it probably seems that way). The thing is, I have a feeling your mentality is that you know Bowser pretty well (no doubt), and you have a lot of ideas about what you want out of him (doesn't every low tier main?). Our direction is quite different and is coming from people who don't have that same "credibility" of having gone through the same experiences, and that can be pretty easy to reject. I'm trying to say that there are an infinite number of ways any character could be rebalanced, and there's never anything "essential". I feel as though our direction is very true to the "spirit" of Bowser, and I think it's something that has to come from play moreso than just reading and taking it intuitively. My sudden conviction on Bowser being actually pretty good was, when fighting a Snake as Bowser, I realized that it wasn't really harder overall for me to land hits on him than him on me (he's generally more safe, but I'm generally more mobile so it evens out), and trading hits is actually winning for me in the long run against him. Snake didn't even seem scary all of a sudden, and when Snake doesn't feel scary for a former low tier, it's hard to not feel like the character has gone in a good direction.I'm not trying to shoot down any criticism so much as I hope it comes from really using the character, trying your best to win, and being honest with yourself about the situation. Are you not generally more able to win than before, and even if some things still make it hard, are the obstacles you have to overcome higher than what you're putting your opponent through? I mean, the street does run both ways; even if some stuff still scares you, there's the other side where the opponent might be getting scared himself.
 

JOE!

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Moral of the story:

Overall bowser is just better at being bowser, just by attacking, you rack up say, an extra 1-2% per hit. Over a few attacks, that equates to quite a decent amount of free damage compared to vBrawl bowser, getting opponents to kill %'s quicker.

Better yet, his kill moves were buffed, so not only do you get to kill %'s faster, those %'s are lower, making Bowser probably one of the more effecient killers in the game.
 

Mit

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Quick question: are custom stages auto-turned off in BBrawl even in the non-portable release? It's impossible to select them in any mode...
 

Flayl

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Bowser doesn't need a faster grab. 9 frames is not something that can be humanly reacted to.

Also, yes it was, Flayl. Fox would be freaking S Tier if he didn't get gayed by his fall speed.

Oh look. He doesn't in bBrawl. GG cast.
Fox is Bowser now? Who knew?

Ike's chaingrab against Bowser doesn't work past 42%, and is extremely difficult to do without getting fortressed. It has never gone past 2 backthrows in a competitive environment. Any Bowser worth his salt will tell you the only chaingrabs that matter are the 3 I mentioned, because against Falco you get lasered on purpose while klaw hopping to avoid the chaingrab to spike.

Bowser is bad because he gets camped a lot, and not only by people with projectiles. People used to think MK wasn't overall too bad for Bowser, until the MK players started camping Bowser whenever they got him at a higher %. This applies to a LOT of top tier characters, when Bowser is forced to approach he will often take more damage than give, and it's not a base damage problem, it's simply not having the tools necessary to poke a waiting character safely.

Anybody who says the difference between a 9 and a 6 frame grab is not appreciable knows nothing about competitive Brawl and should not be listened to ever again. I cannot tell you how many shield stand-offs I have lost because Sakurai randomly decided that Bowser's average reach grab should be 3 frames slower than everybody else's. To give you an idea, a lot of characters can punish MK's DSmash on shield by walking and grabbing him. Not Bowser. You can't fortress that either, so you're at a loss-loss scenario.

Melee fortress is awesome because it was really fast (started 1 frame earlier than Brawl's, ended sooner), was easier to edge cancel and killed heavies at 120%. Granted everything kills later in Brawl, but with the heavier penalty on stale moves, there just isn't a way for Brawl fortress to be that good, unless you buffed it enormously, which you clearly AREN'T doing.

Take advice from someone who actually plays Bowser, letting him do 1% more damage with his moves will not make him an A tier character. Letting him do more damage will make him better at the matchups he is already OK at, but will not help against the top tiers that can truly camp him.

I didn't bother to read more of Amazing Ampharos post becuase it was disproportionately large relative to my input, I hope I adressed the more important points.
 

Albert.

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quick question, I can't change controls in BBrawl. it just frezes everything. I am using the non-hack SD card version. How can I change user controls in BBrawl? (like y-to-grab)


BTW I love BBrawl, great job. My roommate plays link and I'm pretty sure soon he'll refuse to play vbrawl cause he likes the arrows in bBrawl
 

Eldiran

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I didn't bother to read more of Amazing Ampharos post becuase it was disproportionately large relative to my input, I hope I adressed the more important points.
You do realize Ampharos is one of the creators of BBrawl, right? If you aren't taking his input into account you're not going to have any chance at getting BBrawl changed.
 

JOE!

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just change controls in vBrawl, then play BBrawl.


as for Flayl, if poeple are seriously air-camping, just pause and yell at them, call them a ***** or whatnot :p
 

A2ZOMG

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I think A2 especially is guilty of the assumption "characters with safety issues are always bad".
Can you honestly say that this isn't an accurate statement? All of the best characters in this game have extremely safe and reliable ways of creating openings, dealing massive damage and (most of the time) KOing efficiently. The characters that I think are also good in BBrawl have improvements that are consistent with this standard.

There are indeed a few characters that already could fundamentally create openings safely, but were lower tier because their reward was MUCH less on their safe stuff, and they usually had to KO at much higher percents. Giving those characters increased power makes those characters tournament viable competition (Mario, Samus, and Link are the most obvious successes of this game). Bowser is not one of those characters.

It may be the case that no good characters in standard Brawl have particular safety issues, but that is more a case of "it happened to work out that way" morso than anything. Safety issues are just a negative; they're not a guaranteed character ruiner any more than any other negative.
Considering how defensive Brawl is in general (low blockstun, extremely safe dodges, few downsides to retreating and projectile camping, broken edge stalling), being unsafe is pretty crippling.

You might not see it this way, but it is literally possible to take very few hits against an unsafe character and kill them by simply punishing them whenever they do anything. Fundamentally, if your opponent doesn't have a safe strategy (whether it is by character design or by tactical flaw), all you have to do to win against them is to wait them out. It doesn't matter how much reward they have on moves. If you're patient enough and don't take huge risks, your opponent can rarely ever KO you in this game.

It's just something to be taken in light of the positives. The whole idea of a heavyweight in general assumes safety issues. They use their weight to not die until they've taken more hits than a typical character, and they kill early and do lots of damage so the opponent effectively dies in fewer hits than typical. They tend to have above average range and priority as well (at least Bowser does) so they don't suffer in spacing games so much; the safety issues are the main things that just give the opponent more opportunities to land hits than they get... but isn't that how it should be? If the heavyweights had the same number of opportunities, they'd just be broken.
Firstoff, they don't have to have the same number of opportunities. They need to have a few opportunities that aren't ridiculously situational. You give those opportunities low reward to counterbalance the high reward of nearly everything else on a heavyweight.

And then, one of the other flaws to this argument is disregarding that since they have larger character models and more weight, they also get comboed a lot more. Considering how terrible Bowser's recovery is, he's also veeeeeeery limited offstage, and thus easily pressured to the point where taking 60% before getting back onstage is not unrealistic. Or just getting flat out gimped for that matter.

What's also not mentioned is the fact that most of Bowser's stuff has slower than average startup, meaning that it's easier for an opponent to block him on reaction. Which then goes back to the safety argument.

Now, tell me again what safe ways Bowser has to create opportunities. All of them rely on an opponent messing up, I can guarantee that.

His "safest" way of creating openings is through Klaw hopping, which is a pretty solid strategy. The PROBLEM with this is that it is mad predictable, and snuffed by people who don't randomly spotdodge against Bowser know how to anti-air.

Aside from that, he doesn't have anything that comes that close to being safe or reliable, partially due to his large size leaving him open from more angles to be punished.

The same opportunity with a better pay-out would make them flat out better than characters who don't have their combination of bulk and might. When balanced right, their lower number of opportunities and their need for fewer opportunities to accomplish the same result exactly cancel out and they end up equal in worth to the other characters.
You have the right idea, except the statement does not exactly describe the situation at hand.

As I was saying, what opportunities does Bowser even have? It is difficult for him to poke safely due to his large frame and existent ending lag on most stuff, and while he does have one approach that is theoretically safe, it is very predictable and must be spaced carefully.

This is what I've been saying about Ganon all along, but Bowser is a way, way less extreme version of that anyway since Bowser is way harder to lock down and shut out, and he can just ignore the whole idea of safe poking by using that fast unblockable that does 18% whenever he wants. Whirling Fortress also lets him largely ignore the defensive disadvantages of that sort of design; he only has to worry about his safety issues for half of his game (the offensive part) instead of all of his game like Ganon does. DK is fairly close to Bowser design-wise really, but DK takes some extra speed/safety in exchange for some lower damage output (though not really lower direct KO power) and fewer special tricks (DK doesn't have anything as big to him as Whiriling Fortress and Flying Slam are to Bowser). Yeah, there is more to it of course, but I don't think in a simplified and general sense what I'm saying is inaccurate. It's just that Bowser is a heavyweight, and he has the highs and lows that come with it.
And Ganondorf lacks anything that even resembles a safe option. Actually his Up-smash and autocanceled B-air are safe on block. How will you ever poke with those in a real match?

Lucario and G&W still laugh at Ganondorf no matter what he does, and basically anyone else can simply just wait him out or camp him and always be at an advantage. Considering the limits on his out of shield game due to his shieldgrab being TERRIBLE, there is a lot of stuff that Ganondorf can't realistically punish without powershielding into a dashgrab.

Donkey Kong unlike Bowser has three attacks that can be used more reliably as poke moves that are less situational than anything Bowser has. His B-air when fastfalled is safe most of the time. His F-tilt at maximum range is hard to punish. His Down-B is also safe on block and has pretty broken range. Donkey Kong's shieldgrab also has more range, his D-throw has better combo setups, and his B-throw can be a high percent KO move comparable to something like Luigi's B-throw. Yeah, he's not quite as safe as he would like mainly due to his large frame and lack of options for hitting below him, but Donkey Kong is a much better example of a balanced heavyweight. Donkey Kong also has a good out of shield killer in the name of D-smash, while Bowser really doesn't have anything like that unless for some reason his Up-B is fresh.

It's pretty foolish to assume that you can survive in this game without good poke strategies, since Brawl is heavily poke based due to how strong defenses are in this game, and the relative lack of reliable combos and hitconfirms. As much as you may think that raw power can overcome the need for pokes, you are sorely underestimating how limited Bowser and Ganondorf's poke options are. Their poke options are much too situational or not safe enough in general for them to reliably create openings in a defensive metagame, and considering the raw KO power of so many characters in this game in general, killing a meager 20% lower with x random move is not very impressive especially if it's not a safe KO move.

Heck, someone like ROB who gets criticized for his low KO power in general, I just proved that he can consistently D-throw -> U-smash for the kill. Tell me now that those other heavyweights aren't outclassed at this point.
 

JOE!

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@LS, not necesarrily pausing, but pausing what you're doing to yell at the opponent = straight up mindgame.

@A2:

great points, but AA does have one overlying point: Would the heavies be a bit much if they were safe?

I know the top tiers are top due to their safety, reliabilty and etc, etc...but say we gave bowser, who is the heaviest character, the ability to plow through any attack with his Ftilt, gave it perfect priority for a poke move.

Not only does he have an epic attack, he is also stupid heavy, and harder to KO by 10fold due to this new Wall he has of an Ftilt.


(may be a bad example, but do you see where im trying to go?)
 

A2ZOMG

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Joe, the simple answer to your question is no, unless you're talking about Snake.

If you're only buffing Bowser's F-tilt to be a safe poke, it's not going to unbalance him. It would be a great and essential move (like it wasn't already really important in vBrawl), but Bowser would be balanced by his limited safe KO options.

This is different from Snake, whose F-tilt is not only a great poke, but does MUCH more massive damage, and doesn't stop him from killing safely with his 6 frame U-tilt that outranges most swords and in vBrawl, has KO power not unlike Fox's U-smash (in BBrawl, it has power more like vBrawl Mario's U-smash). Snake can very safely set up into his U-tilt with a little prediction from D-throw, and there isn't much to cry about if you accidently get hit by a getup attack.
 

ぱみゅ

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@LS, not necesarrily pausing, but pausing what you're doing to yell at the opponent = straight up mindgame.

@A2:

great points, but AA does have one overlying point: Would the heavies be a bit much if they were safe?

I know the top tiers are top due to their safety, reliabilty and etc, etc...but say we gave bowser, who is the heaviest character, the ability to plow through any attack with his Ftilt, gave it perfect priority for a poke move.

Not only does he have an epic attack, he is also stupid heavy, and harder to KO by 10fold due to this new Wall he has of an Ftilt.


(may be a bad example, but do you see where im trying to go?)
sounds just like snake lol are you sure you're not talking snake?

anyways
people is understimating the "reward" concept (and the BBrawl idea itself). BBrawl isn't supposed to totally change a character to do it drastically better and capable to win tournaments by itself (like B+), it's supposed to be played JUST LIKE VBRAWL (most changes are actually too small to be even noticed by some people), and there should be not too much things to relearn (but figure out strategies other than spamming broken moves). So, whenever you try a unsafe move, all the risk you took is either punished or have high reward. And will remain like that because a move in BBrawl will be just as unsafe as it originaly was, but now, with more reward if you land it.

What I mean is that major changes are against the BBrawl idea itself.


btw,

Oh hell no. It had crossed my mind, but then I thought about it, and it's just too evil. Zelda being able to snipe the person trying to meet her in the air with fireballs is just ridiculous. Suddenly, assuming she's hit high up enough, she can snipe wherever she wants to land a few moments before landing there, including the edge.

((Unless the lag at the end of din's fire is actually more than it looks like))
Zelda's Din's Fire does actually not let you in freefall, but it last too much, so it's hardly noticeable.
 

JOE!

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i forgot about how stupidly heavy snake is...

isnt he 3rd heaviest?

anywho, @k.p.:

yes, the point of Bbrawl is to make minimal changes for maximun result.

However, some characters may need a tad more drastic changes. For example, Bowser may need fire breath to have some lag shaved off to make it a viable resource for him vs defensive opponents, or as a sort of approach, as it forces an action. He is however too slow thanks to lag to capitalize.

remember, this is only version 1 so to speak
 

rPSIvysaur

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yeah, but when I talked w/ Thinkaman on AIM, he said that they're not even considering any changes right now and that it's way too early
 

A2ZOMG

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Only a few more characters need adjustments to safety...there are other characters (most obvious example being Sonic) who indeed would benefit from reward adjustments (needs a more reliable way to KO at high percents).

To be honest, I'm also curious about already decent characters like Toon Link, Pit, Wolf, Kirby, and Peach and where they stand right now. Most of the buffs they got are really subtle in general and don't do a whole ton to change matchups as far as I can tell. These characters are obviously decent. Just nobody seems to be really aware how good they are since nobody is excited about them. =/
 

JOE!

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I brought up wolf earlier...

I think he may be a very good char now, in vBrawl all the gay shenannigans held him back from being scary...

now, he lacks those limitors, and has a buffed game to boot...

he only has recovery as an issue as far as I'm concerned, but definatly high tier

edit:

as for characters who may need something else added in the future:

:bowser2: , :sonic: , :ganondorf: , :diddy: (wasnt changed, lost nanner locks?), :dedede: (changed from being dangerous to just annoying...), :zelda: (may need a bit of help with her role as the killer of the duo)


thoughts?
 

A2ZOMG

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Mentioning Wolf, Wolf sorta can't kill you if he doesn't land a fresh D-smash (or now this isn't so much an issue with new moves that have increased knockback?), and he is juggled pretty easily due to his fall speed, but yeah. He's solid.

Speaking of Diddy Kong, any chance his Up-throw can be fixed?

Holy **** Linkshot. You're right. Luigi is actually throwing Boric acid at his opponents.
 

Mr. Escalator

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I actually feel the opposite. Wolf had all around solid tools in vBrawl so that even his really bad matchups weren't a death sentence like DK's was. Now that they're gone, it's good and all, but a lot of his close matchups with half the class are more in the favor of the previously bad characters while his other half hasn't changed much with his nair and firewolf buffs.

Now I am no wolf expert, but I think he's one of the lower characters. I just think he needs some more overall help, like I think a few characters need. I don't think any buffs should go to his recovery or fields he's weak in, just some small buffs here and there to his already solid game.

Pit and Peach similarly need more work. I am unsure about Toon Link, probably a yes with him, while Kirby is likely fine (maybe under par but nothing drastic).
 

KingKong_ad

Smash Ace
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I'll see if I can get Kingkong in here. He's the best Bowser I've ever fought. ****ing amazing.
Thanks :)

I only played BBrawl there is one month ago

I didnt see a lot of changes on bowser. the only big point I see is bowser doesnt have CG anymore :( I was still able to **** with him :)

But A grab in frame 6 could be really usefull, Bowser could punish with something else than fortress.

Also im not a player of this game so I dont think my opinion could be really helpfull
 

Mr. Escalator

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Yes I do. The most I can see being argued for him is at most midish, but I really think that's not the actual case for Wolf and that he is actually really mediocre.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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yet, he has above average everything:

weight, speed, movement (airspeed...not ground), pirority, power...

the only crappy parts of him are fall speed and recovery IMO *shrug*
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
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I think w/o all the gay shananigans Wolf is great. He has above average everything, a gay annoying f-smash, a gay annoying b-air, a gay annoying d-smash, a gay annoying laser. Then again I only play against him on Wifi...
 

A2ZOMG

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Wolf's F-smash is hard to punish on reaction online since it's hard to tell when it crosses you up on block.
 

Mit

Smash Ace
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Quick question: are custom stages auto-turned off in BBrawl even in the non-portable release? It's impossible to select them in any mode...
But seriously, it's impossible to view the "Custom Stages" tab when picking stages, regardless of whether or not you have them turned on/off.

Also, that control issue bugs me too. Can you really not custom-configure controls when the BBrawl codeset is loaded up?
 

Sawdust

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
10
hey is there a way to install this with an SD card bigger than 2gb? It's the only one I have and I dont really want to go buy a 1gig one.
 

Stealth Raptor

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But seriously, it's impossible to view the "Custom Stages" tab when picking stages, regardless of whether or not you have them turned on/off.

Also, that control issue bugs me too. Can you really not custom-configure controls when the BBrawl codeset is loaded up?
this is definitly an issue if you want to run tourneys. i forget did utd zac's tourney report this problem?
 
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