Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Swoops]

However, it isn't JUST as laggy. A2ZOMG said it was just as laggy, which it isn't. He should of said it's practically as laggy.

Also, Lucas' Fsmash is obviously pretty good (much better than Ganon's piece of crap Fsmash).

No he shouldn't have, because it's more laggy. Lucas: Hits 14, ends 58 = 44. Ganondorf: Hits 21-26, ends 57 = 36-31. Of course hitlag and shield stun come in to play, but frankly ganon has more shield stun on his f-smash anyways.

I don't think anyone was getting into the argument of whose f-smash is better. Just comparing them and saying that Lucas' f-smash is incredibly unsafe.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

F-smash hits on him and in front, not behind... I would love if it hit behind, you probably got caught rolling into Lucas.

Also, it's incredibly hard to reflect with F-smash, you have 2 frames to hit the projectile back. I'm pretty sure that's less than PSing.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

According to the data A2ZOMG posted, Lucas' ends on frame 46, NOT 58. The difference is cited as 2 frames less cooldown on Lucas'. So either the data A2 posted is wrong, or the one you are referencing is. A2ZOMG's seems pretty believable.

Also, A2ZOMG argued that Ganon's is better. I was just stating Ganon's sucked, to which he contested that point.

edit: Nope, I didn't roll into Lucas at all. It hit ever so slightly behind him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas' Fsmash may have SLIGHTLY less range and less knockback, but you are failing to mention that it has reflection properties, hits behind him, is actually able to be led into from Dtilt's tripping, AND has better startup. The startup is really important; hitting on frame 14 is a lot better than 21, even though it seems small.

Ganon's fsmash is a joke. You can consistently powershield that, whereas Lucas' is just under typical Smasher's reaction time, so it wont be always powershielded simply on reaction alone.

You can't actually powershield most smashes on reaction because of charge release times. Ganon's F-smash releases on frame 11, which isn't fast for a release, but it doesn't have any obvious motions (unlike Lucario's F-smash) that make it easier to call out.

Reflection properties are situational, since you have to be on the ground to use it.

Leading into it from D-tilt tripping is decent, and with Lucas's improved spotdodge, that does help. However Ganondorf also can lead into his F-smash with D-tilt tripping in this game, and he always could techchase F-smash on prediction.

The extra 7 frames of startup really doesn't matter much at all. They're both too slow to hit most people before they block on reaction without predicting their spacing. Ganondorf's F-smash punishes spotdodges better due to the lingering hitbox too. The speed of Lucas's F-smash only guarantees it isn't useless like Ike's F-smash in singles, and Ganondorf's F-smash has HUGE range and leanback to compensate for its speed flaws. Keep in mind, most attacks have around 20-25 frames of ending lag, and that Ganondorf is able to F-smash pretty indiscriminately whenever he predicts an attack (seriously, you can outrange Ike's F-air with Ganon's F-smash leanback or stutter step).

In general Lucas's F-smash isn't much easier to land, if at all. Ganondorf's F-smash has properties that make it much less predictable that some other attacks, and it KOs significantly earlier and does more damage. All in all Ganon's F-smash is a much more practical attack.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

how about we agree both of them suck? and A2ZOMG's frames were right

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Wow, A2ZOMG is actually taking my TROLLBAIT post and arguing it?
(The thing is, Lucas' is better easily, but it's not something I am going to argue about)

It just goes to show that A2 is easy to force a debate with.

 

[Swoops]

Then the lucas boards need to change their frame data >.>

 

[rPSIvysaur]

... they do...

And what is "ever so slightly behind him" is actually on him... what I meant by rolling into him litterally meant rolling INTO him, this can also be done with walking and running XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow, A2ZOMG is actually taking my TROLLBAIT post and arguing it?
(The thing is, Lucas' is better easily, but it's not something I am going to argue about)

It just goes to show that A2 is easy to force a debate with.

I insist on being correct. It's not my fault that I'm a high-functioning autistic irl. I'm VERY data oriented with this game and I've spent quite a bit of time actually testing things out with various characters.

 

[Linkshot]

You say Lucas has a blind spot, but you can simply fTiltUp.

Oh boy. That's why we don't get along XD

You're frame-data oriented, I'm experience-data oriented.


I have one of the fastest reflexes in Ottawa. I have to SLIGHTLY predict Lucas' fSmash to be able to block it. It's that fast. My reaction time is about 12-16 frames (I have done a LOT of Kirby Quick Draw)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

nope... it's still blind, to G&W and Marf. His tilting F-tilt doesn't tilt that much.

 

[Linkshot]

Hm. I guess I should trust you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh boy. That's why we don't get along XD

You're frame-data oriented, I'm experience-data oriented.

Lol, I actually try to use the frame/range data that I've tested when actually playing. Although my playstyle tends to revolve a lot around prediction to compensate for poor reaction time. Still, I have a really good idea what options can be used to punish out of shield assuming I'm in range.

In general I have a pretty good idea how disjointed/how far moves reach due to the time I've spent testing to confirm ranges.

This is why Mario's F-smash is my favorite attack in this game. It's the most epic attack in this game that is competitively viable. It has the most deceptive range in the game (only being outranged by Falco, Wolf, and DDD's F-smash) and it's fast enough to capitalize on the ending lag of 98% of attacks in this game (the 2% that is not punishable usually belonging to G&W and his 10 frame ending lag Smashes. =/).

Even to this day, everyone goes "WTF!?" when they get hit by that move.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Anyway, we derailed this thread a bit. Let's discuss Peach... Your thoughts on her?
I think she is still underpowered, one of the weakest in BBrawl. Though they didn't want to hear buff suggestions, I wanted to throw out the idea of tightening her Dash Attack so all the hits connect, and maybe some damage buff on it as well; it's one of her only ways to force people like Samus into the air. Samus was already pretty good versus Peach, and she only got better, though Peach much less so. Improving one of her ground options helps the matchup.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. What about you guys? Peach good or not? Relatively speaking of course (everyone is good).

 

[deepseadiva]

I have yet to try Peach against humans. :/

Her new fthrow is easily her most important buff. Peach excels at clip damage and keeping herself safe with quick and active GTFO moves. I can almost see it as being viable for her to accumulate damage on her opponent, then get a grab at 170%.

She's godly great at getting grabs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach had only one real flaw...she only had one really viable safe KO move. F-air.

Aside from that she's good. Oh and F-throw buff is great. Seriously, she really needed that.

I think I underrated her when I sent a tier list to Thinkaman because I forgot her F-throw was buffed...but anyhow she's fine. Just probably still has trouble with the same matchups (Marth, G&W, Metaknight who all outspace her and punish her out of shield) and a few matchups like vs Mario, Link, and Samus are now significantly harder for her.

 

[deepseadiva]

Her worst match-ups did get much better in theory. Peach was buffed while all her worst match-ups were either nerfed or unchanged. Not to mention, most of them are light - with her improved KO power with nair, fsmash, and fthrow, she'll do very well against them.

With Marth, she could match his range with fair, dive in with bair, and camp him with turnips. Bair got a minor buff, while Marth was unchanged. It's still probably 40:60 - but possibly better now. G&W is actually being reconsidered as a 45:55 in vBrawl. With the accumulation of all her buffs, it could possibly be even now, or better. MK was nerfed in all the right places - tornado and UpB being of note. Possibly even. Snake was nerfed in his uptilt. Peach can live now.

Her former bad match-ups are fine and dandy (in theory of course). It'll be interesting seeing how she does against the better low tiers. They'll be the real threats.

 

[12345678910]

I've been wondering...what's the point of the change in falco's backthrow? With the old unchanged one it was possible to follow it up with two lasers depending on DI and percentage now all I get is some mediocre throw that sends them up the air. Is this supposed to be a nerf or a buff?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It was to help him on platformed stages while hurting his capabilities of abusing walkoff stages, I'm fairly certain.

HotGarbage suggested that Samus is a likely one of Peachs hardest matchups now, I think. I can see it, seeing as she's heavy with a good recovery, really anti-air, and now has kill moves. What do you think, Meno?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The F-smash buff is a buff that is minor that I really don't care much about, since it's one of her hardest moves to land, and not particularly safe either. Sure, it's more meaningful than buffing something like PK Flash, but it's not matchup changing.

Really, the F-throw buff is the real deal, since you can Jab cancel grab, and because throws are easy to deliberately save for KOing. N-air buff is alright and good as long as it's not fully DIed, but it's mostly a situational out of shield option when the opponent lands too close. One random thing that occurred to me is that the angle change might actually help Link and Samus in high level play to survive it, due to the tether recovery.

I'm pretty certain that the MK matchup was bad for the simple reason that MK's moveset covers all of Peach's approach angles, which is something that hasn't changed. Not getting killed as early by D-smash makes a bigger difference, as the main thing I see MK's Up-B being used for in this matchup isn't so much edgeguarding and gimping, as opposed to punishing, which it still does the same reliable job of.

While Snakes U-tilt was nerfed, it's knockback isn't horrible. It's SLIGHTLY more powerful than vBrawl Mario's U-smash to put in perspective, which in the Mario vs Peach matchup was also considered a good KO move (and vice versa, Mario's U-smash has the KO power of vBrawl Snake's U-tilt in this game, so watch out). At any rate, he still lives to higher percents than Peach can KO him at.

Just pointing out.

As for Falco's B-throw, the change of that throw was meant to put people in a position that is easy for Falco to follow up with.

 

[Fox Hater]

what about pit. havent heard from him or his changes/buffs/nerfs. anyone care to share some info

 

[hotgarbage]

Her former bad match-ups are fine and dandy (in theory of course). It'll be interesting seeing how she does against the better low tiers. They'll be the real threats.

Yeah pretty much.
As Mr.Esc mentioned Samus does decently against her in Brawl despite Samus being a terrible character; the matchup could very well be in Samus' favor now. I'm confident PT now has an advantage over Peach. A2, you're pretty radical in regard to the Mario v Peach matchup in Brawl .(oop, I misread your post and thought you said Mario was a problem matchup for her in Brawl). I could definitely see Mario pulling ahead in BBrawl though. Link maybe? Note that all the characters I'm listing can wall her to an extent... which is a natural weakness she has stemming from her sub-par/bad movement speed and rather large hurtbox.

I can't really go in totally in-depth with Peach though, as I'm limited to wifi currently and Peach is a complete joke there so 8/. On that note however if anyone here would like to play me just send me a message .

The F-smash buff is a buff that is minor that I really don't care much about, since it's one of her hardest moves to land, and not particularly safe either. Sure, it's more meaningful than buffing something like PK Flash, but it's not matchup changing.

You're underrating her fsmash; it's really not difficult to land at all. I know Edrees rates it as one of Peach's best moves, if not the best (I don't recall which exactly). Anyways yeah, it's not matchup changing; it's a very nice little boost to have though.

And in regards to her fthrow... ehhh I don't know. It's been upgraded from "doesn't kill" to "kills at very high percents", which is nice, but I wonder if Peach can really afford to be killing at percents like that against some of the new threats in the game. Ideally Peach should be utilizing her slightly improved kill potential to avoid having to fall back on fthrow. Also if it fails to kill it's really not that useful, seeing the extent to which it can be DI'd; and Peach isn't very adept at punishing high recoveries. I don't think I'd label it as her best buff myself. It's a nice *new* option to have though!

Well that's my 2 cents. What do you guys think hmmmmm?

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Pit wasn't changed much from what I gathered from the changelist.

 

[WheelOfFish]

What confuses me is that Jigglypuff is the only bottom tier character to remain basically unchanged. Slight damage and knockback buffs, but no signficant buffs. At all. All the other low-tier characters and even a good chunk of the mid-tiers got "game-changers" so to speak and other huge buffs, so I can't imagine how Jigglypuff would NOT be completely left in the dust.

That, and I have a friend who tried out BBrawl and was very disappointed to find out that Jiggly hasn't been improved much.

Of course, you're giving the set time to develop a solid metagame, which is a fantastic idea. I just think that Jiggs won't be faring well, and when the time comes in a few months, we'll see. If needed, you could always give Jiggs Melee rest but with horizontal knockback so the move is punishable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Jiggs is a lot better with those small changes, her game is bassically aerial, so making her deal more damage is plenty appreciated... at least, that's my thoughts.

btw, rest punishable??? is a all-or-nothing gamble on landing it! (although, pretty easy to set up)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Completely adding a whole extra kill move for her is really significant; the dash attack buff does mean a lot, since now she's not just trying to kill with Fair.

 

[Linkshot]

I would like to input that in the first ever bBrawl tourney (with 7 entries), Jiggernaut came 2nd using Jiggs only.

That should say enough.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We are not trying to make any characters into their melee selves, including Jigglypuff. Buffing Rest is really not a good idea for Brawl; it just makes life hard on Diddy Kong.

She really does a lot better than you'd think with these changes. She wasn't as bad as some people thought in the first place, and she got improvements on the core of her game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whoever says Jigglypuff was bottom tier in vBrawl is stupid. Seriously. It's BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that she was nowhere NEAR qualifying of bottom tier in vBrawl.

She has Wario's mobility for the most part, and multiple jumps to go with it, so she can air camp like a ***** if she really needs to and stall the timer. She can also edgecamp extremely well. And she's so good at being a homo in general that she can take on almost anyone viably. Drillrest is gay and kills people at like 80-100% on a trip. Rollout can be stupidly hard to punish. Pound is gay. Her KO moves aren't as impressive as they were in Melee, but still decent when you consider her combo game is still very good and can get people to the percents where they can be KOed pretty quickly.

She was easily a mid tier character at minimum in vBrawl, and now at least upper mid if not high tier in BBrawl. She's only held back by unpopularity, a high learning curve, and pathetically low weight, which don't matter much at all under a good player who can very feasibly try to play "DON'T GET HIT" with Jigglypuff.

The vBrawl tier list has so many errors anyway, and doesn't accurately reflect character matchups and potential. Sonic better than Sheik seriously? I'd like to know whose bright idea that was. Of course, Sonic does have better players representing him, but really, that's probably the most obvious example of why that tier list is to be taken with a grain of salt. And again, Jigglypuff in the lowest of tiers with the likes of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf? Seriously...something is wrong.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm not suggesting for you to make Jigglypuff her Melee counterpart. That's stupid. Brawl and Melee just plain don't play the same, so you can't expect the same Jigglypuff to work in Brawl... which is where Sakurai went VERY wrong. And he nerfed Jiggly despite the fact that she is clearly worse off in Brawl's physics than she was in Melee. Putting the reward back in the biggest risk-reward move in the game isn't trying to recreate Melee Jigglypuff.

And the popularity argument is crap. If popularity affected tier list at all, then Captain Falcon would always be top tier A2ZOMG.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And the popularity argument is crap. If popularity affected tier list at all, then Captain Falcon would always be top tier A2ZOMG.

lol, what kind of argument is that? When it comes to popularity in tournament, Metaknight dominates.

The point I'm making is that there are next to no good players that use Jigglypuff and represent her in tournament. If good players actually used her, people would start realizing that she's at MINIMUM mid tier material in vBrawl.

I've actually played against a good Jigglypuff before too. Seriously...you can air camp with Jigglypuff and get away with it. Her zoning game is also serious business.

Trust me, Jigglypuff is good, and was never horrible. Yeah, Wario and Kirby outclassed her. All she really needed was a few buffs to make her stand out a little more.

Also, Rest isn't that hard to land. Drillrest is a reliable and safe way to set it up (just wait for the trip).

 

[Mit]

If you don't think Jigglypuff is improved much you haven't been using enough dash attack and dsmash. Dsmash I imagine won't be heavily used much as IIRC it wasn't a very good move before, but both moves have a devastating angle, that can lead to easy gimps against many characters' recoveries. Also, her aerial game isn't changed much in theory, but it just racks up more damage faster now.

 

[JOE!]

the more I play PT the more im being convinced he may be like, at the least top of High tier...

 

[Mit]

Ugh, lost my entire original post to an internet outage while editing. Not typing that again. Here's the gist of it:

Falcon's still not that good, probably still has many matchups past 40:60 in his opponents favor. Still has next to no approach options, no options to deal with camping/defensive play except to rely on opponent fault or total prediction. Less useful moves are still not very useful even if they're always safe on hit (Falcon Kick), not enough options to do very much at all but rally airbound opponents from below.

Interested in hearing people's reasoning as to why they think he's more balanced in this. I fully understand why say, Ganon's more balanced in BBrawl, but I'm just not seeing it with Falcon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon has an extremely high learning curve. I find he can approach safely under someone who is godly at spacing. He can bait like a pro with his mobility. What you need if you are a character that fundamentally has ways to get in is reward. Which is exactly what he was improved in.

Basically, Falcon requires a lot of knowledge of baiting air dodges, zoning, and spacing. The reason he was terrible was cause of 0 reward on his safe stuff in vBrawl.

Up-B out of shield is also amazing. Jab canceling is even better with the pummel buff, and B-throw knockback increase is invaluable if you know KO percents.

 

[Mit]

It just seemingly takes way too much to get in to do any of that. Against someone playing very defensively (covering all their openings and not taking bait, just giving it and staying back firing off projectiles or keeping you at bay with disjointed hitboxes or better range/attack speed) your only option seems to be to fly in there as fast as possible, throwing dodges out at perfect times, predicting what's gonna happen when you get right up close, and getting a grab in afterward, or something like a raptor boost (pray you connect though, or you're getting punished). Particularly bad matchups that come to mind are Mario and Falco. It comes down to trying your hardest to get them offstage and pray you manage to gimp. Mario's aerials all trump Falcon's, he can approach at you with fireballs, and his ground game trumps Falcon's as well. Falco shouldn't need an explanation.

It's possible to win, yes, it's possible to get in there and **** a bit from below, but balanced? It still feels like an uphill battle against the majority of the cast.


Also about, "a lot of knowledge of baiting air dodges, zoning, and spacing". With the amount required to make Falcon look good, you could make any character in the game look good, because those are fundamentals to Brawl's playstyle. Though it's like you have to figure out how to do good with that using hardly any options, unlike the rest of the cast. All he's got is speed, which isn't even all that amazing and certainly not as good as something like good aerial mobility (obviously not something that would suit his character, but it's what many all-physical characters use to get in, like Wario and Jiggs.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also about, "a lot of knowledge of baiting air dodges, zoning, and spacing". With the amount required to make Falcon look good, you could make any character in the game look good, because those are fundamentals to Brawl's playstyle. Though it's like you have to figure out how to do good with that using hardly any options, unlike the rest of the cast. All he's got is speed, which isn't even all that amazing and certainly not as good as something like good aerial mobility (obviously not something that would suit his character, but it's what many all-physical characters use to get in, like Wario and Jiggs.)

What makes Falcon not worthless is the few moves he has that are safe on defenses. Well-timed N-airs and Jabs are safe. He's fast enough to cross up his opponent reliably, and B-air is pretty safe.

The 2nd hit of Downsmash is a pretty safe KO move and buffed. Up-B out of shield is fundamentally safe as long as you don't do it against something that is safe on block. U-tilt is a good attack that got an angle buff.

Now that I think about it, he probably could have used a few buffs on different moves...although seriously. What makes Falcon Falcon is his much improved damage dealing potential. Unlike Ganondorf, he has stuff that can always be used safely on defenses. Although he does require a lot more precision than most characters.

Knees sweetspot easily on the platforms of BF, so the buff there is pretty useful.

 

[Mit]

What makes Falcon not worthless is the few moves he has that are safe on defenses. Well-timed N-airs and Jabs are safe. He's fast enough to cross up his opponent reliably, and B-air is pretty safe.

Most of the time jabs and nairs are safe, if your opponent isn't fast enough to punish them. Some characters have shield grabs that are easily fast enough to punish nairs or jabs (the first-hit-nairs can be spaced to avoid this, but then you won't be close enough to follow up with anything). A lot of characters with fast, high priority nairs won't have problems punishing you out of their shield either. Certainly not as punishable as Ganon, but still punishable, and still able to blocked by someone putting up a strong defensive front. Bairs can be good. I can manage strings of them a lot at lower percents as well (if your opponent lands and rolls backward after getting hit for example), but they don't lead to much more than that most of the time.

The 2nd hit of Downsmash is a pretty safe KO move and buffed. Up-B out of shield is fundamentally safe as long as you don't do it against something that is safe on block. U-tilt is a good attack that got an angle buff.

First hit dsmash kills are more frequent really (due to it's relatively fast speed coming out, pretty good priority, and rather deceptive hitbox, which can be used to punish characters using aerial approaches). 2nd hit kills usually happen due to opponent fault, as they'll have to do something like roll behind you or not land far enough away from you, etc, as they should see the move coming out and atleast be able to figure out a way to get past 2nd hit.

Up-b OoS can be useful, against medium to tall characters. Extremely difficult to land against smaller characters that are shorter than Falcon, and requires you to be very close (if you're nearly inside your shielding opponent you deserve to get punished most of the time).

Utilt is **** and is one of his most reliable kill moves in BBrawl IMO, and is what I kill with most often. No complaints about this, except that an opponent who is well aware of its power will make a decent effort to stay away from it, so you don't hit with it too often, although that means that when you do connect it's probably not very worn down so it'll hit hard. But yeah, can't complain about this one. An invaluable tool to Falcon, especially because of its disjointed hitbox.

Now that I think about it, he probably could have used a few buffs on different moves...although seriously. What makes Falcon Falcon is his much improved damage dealing potential. Unlike Ganondorf, he has stuff that can always be used safely on defenses. Although he does require a lot more precision than most characters.

Knees sweetspot easily on the platforms of BF, so the buff there is pretty useful.

He'll increase his opponent's damage at a faster rate, which can be nice, but there are certain situations where it'll be very trying just to get in and get a decent amount of hits at all. The only reason I think it seems to look pretty okay is a lot of matches you see of pretty good Falcons are probably against opponents who are not at all familiar with how to play a real, serious Falcon player. However if he becomes more popular, and more people learn to play against him, I think it will become clear to more people that he's still got some pretty significant fundamental problems.

And even with platforms your opponent's gotta be asking for it to get a knee landed on him If you can pull something off like an AC dair to your opponent falling on the above platform (no tech) you should get a knee. Otherwise your opponent really has to not be expecting it for you land a knee, or has to make a pretty huge mistake to get punished with it.


I'm interested in what all the BBrawl crew tried in their efforts to balance Falcon though, like if there were anything they didn't wind up implementing (like how the dtilt trip got removed). Stuff like, was a more forward angle considered on Falcon Kick? If it was more like Ganon's and could push people offstage (which, with certain hitboxes on the kick and at certain percents, I think is possible already [with poor DI] but not always). Were any moves considered to be sped up? I can think of about a million uses for ftilt if it came out a bit faster and ended a bit faster (it's not too bad right now, but if it was faster it'd be great for increasing Falcon's range on the ground).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The whole idea with Falcon Kick's new angle is that it puts the opponent in prime uair territory. Uair has better hitboxes than all of Captain Falcon's other moves and is generally good so that should help him out (notice aerial Falcon Kick sends them upward too!).

Anyway, I personally experimented with a very speed oriented version of Captain Falcon (f10 utilt is amazing FYI), but we decided in the end to take Captain Falcon down a more conservative road and one that's true to his design style in standard Brawl. Captain Falcon is, bluntly, not a speed character. He's a slow attacker who trades the usual high range/priority of a slow character for good mobility. When thinking of his moves, you really should be thinking more like Bowser than Fox; it's just that instead of having the careful spacing that gives you big punishments like most slow characters have, you instead have to have the sort of excellent timing that speed characters usually rely on. It's... tricky, and I can't claim to be personally any good at it at all: it's like a hybrid style between Bowser and Sonic.

Thinkaman was the one who spent far more time on Captain Falcon since he can actually play him with some degree of competence (and is notorious around these parts for challenging everyone to Falcon ditto money matches in standard Brawl). He definitely seems dangerous enough now, and while I do fear he'll always be at a disadvantage to the more disjointed characters, I think he should be viable now. He's just really hard to use.

 

[Mit]

Prime uair territory just doesn't seem that valuable once your opponent figures it out though. If they're playing smart and given time to react (which they'll have as you cooldown from falcon kick), it's usually perfectly possible to dodge to safety or attack with a well-spaced or disjointed aerial and stop Falcon in his tracks. Although, even when I hit them up with it it still doesn't seem like prime uair territory. The height is usually far too low unless they're at much higher percents to lead into anything. The height itself really isn't the problem either, it's just the cooldown from Falcon Kick takes too long for you to really get up there and try some uairs or airdodge baiting, unlike raptor boost or throws.

It could be a personal thing, but I like the lower angles more because I think Falcon does well when chasing. The main thing I'd use it for is getting people offstage though. When Falcon's opponent's offstage, even if they're above the stage height, it's a good position for him, and especially presents a lot of nice walkoff options. His offstage and gimping game really is pretty good, and anything that can set that up for him earlier is a plus. Although now that I think about it, FK might not even be a good move for it, still due to the cooldown. You'd have to make it pretty **** powerful to prevent the opponent from just landing in front of you at low percents and hitting you while you cooldown (the same problem it had in vBrawl). Perhaps FK is just not destined to be that great of a move :\ Unless you can make it go through more projectiles like Ganon's does when fresh. That'd be spectacular.

I am interested in what Thinkaman has to say about him though, and some of his strategies he might keep in mind when playing against particularly defensive opponents.