Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[The_Altrox]

Yeah, the problem is that most people think this hack is for players that "aren't competitive enough to drop their low tier for a higher tier character"

Couldn't you apply that to any hack? B+ is doing the same thing with the low tier. So is B- in it's own crazy way. Wouldn't this essentially increase the metagame to include all characters? especially since the game itself changes very little in comparrison to B+ or B-, so it's not like the Ganon main has to completely change his style to fight a once top tier character.
I just don't see why anybody would think improving the low tier is a bad thing.

 

[IrohDW]

Couldn't you apply that to any hack? B+ is doing the same thing with the low tier. So is B- in it's own crazy way. Wouldn't this essentially increase the metagame to include all characters? especially since the game itself changes very little in comparrison to B+ or B-, so it's not like the Ganon main has to completely change his style to fight a once top tier character.
I just don't see why anybody would think improving the low tier is a bad thing.

High tier mains would certainly feel threatened if low tier mains could take them on without the current disadvantages that low tier characters have. For example, I'm certain that some metaknight mains aren't too happy about the fact that bbrawl nerfs 3 of his most broken moves (dsmash, tornado, and upb). Because of that and the buffs that other characters got he now has some matchups that aren't in his favor. As more and more people switch to main metaknight in order to win tournaments, I would expect the opposition to a fair and balanced metaknight to increase. I'm not saying that everyone feels this way, but that certainly is part of the reason some people object to bbrawl.

 

[The_Altrox]

High tier mains would certainly feel threatened if low tier mains could take them on without the current disadvantages that low tier characters have. For example, I'm certain that some metaknight mains aren't too happy about the fact that bbrawl nerfs 3 of his most broken moves (dsmash, tornado, and upb). Because of that and the buffs that other characters got he now has some matchups that aren't in his favor. As more and more people switch to main metaknight in order to win tournaments, I would expect the opposition to a fair and balanced metaknight to increase. I'm not saying that everyone feels this way, but that certainly is part of the reason some people object to bbrawl.

threatened? that makes sense. But I don't know why MK users would feel so threatened. He's still better than a lot of the characters, even with the nerfs. He would still be a good character to fall back on.
But over all, there would be characters I wouldn't use. DDD is one. I use him sometimes in vBrawl, but without the chain, I lose a lot of da power. Sure, DDD has great moves otherwise, but the advantage drops.
Otherwise, you'd think people would be open to fighting buffed low tier characters. new learning experience.

btw, which characters in BBrawl do have advantages to MK?

 

[Alphatron]

You could always go the brawl+ route and give Mach tornado transcendant priority. Disguise it as a buff(which it is anything but) and you may please some MK players!

 

[Lokee]

I tested the pac with ganon's fixed fair and it works great. It isn't any better against grounded opponents, but it works wonders against aerial opponents. This definitely needs to be in the next bbrawl release.

Yeah I noticed that too. Its basically useless for hitting foes on the ground but it seems very effective as an edgeguard tool and a aerial finisher and maybe even a decent anti-air move with the Fix. Also when used high in the air or off the edge it has a feeling of less lag due to the IASA frames

I think its about time to talk more about the characters that obviously stand out from the rest since everyone seems to be headed there anyway. Let me see Metaknight, Snake, Samus, Mario, Rob, Marth any other offenders

EDIT: Just out of curiousity would anyone know particularlly a good number of frames or what frame for that matter Super Armor be applied to the flame choke both ground/air...Hypothetically of course.....

 

[A2ZOMG]

btw, which characters in BBrawl do have advantages to MK?

imo

Snake and Olimar imo are MK's worst matchups in BBrawl. Snake is so heavy that he basically won't be getting killed by anything that isn't a Down-B or F-smash, and he already was really close vs MK anyway. Olimar is also difficult for MK in general, and the weakened power of D-smash and Up-B REALLY limits MK's ability to get Olimar offstage. Falco might have slight advantage, as well as Diddy Kong, since they set up KOs better and already were pretty close in general. Marth, Mario, Samus, G&W, and ROB also do much better against MK, in that they probably don't lose to MK anymore, although whether they win is debateable.

Aside from that however, MK's matchups aren't extremely different, although most of them probably got closer by about 5 points.

 

[JOE!]

Shouldnt DK and Bowser also give MK a good run for his money?

DK because hes the leader of ............

Dk because he naturally had the tools to just give MK trouble, and now I dont see MK killing him any time soon.

Bowser had one of the better Mus with Mk in the cast, also due to hut the way the MU between them went. Now that Mk cannot kill as well (even worse than when DK is concerned) and the fact he doenst have the tornado to fall back on/projectiles to screw his big frame, along with the tremenodous damage output and kill power these two possess...

 

[ぱみゅ]

DK is pretty like Snake's case, but with a higher killing potential. And maybe DDD one is pretty even now.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Anyways, Bowser isn't the big thread, because he's not overall safe nor reliable, yet, now he's a lot closer due to his survability alone.

btw, all of them are even better without nado shanenigans...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Donkey Kong and Bowser however are subject to being ***** offstage more, unlike Snake, so I'd say Snake does better. D-air shenanigans can be really nasty to Bowser and DK's recovery, especially against Bowser, who probably is prone to eating Down-Bs for landing on stage (kills Mario at 125% diagonal-vertically no DI, dunno KO percents for other characters, but DIing it should have fairly little effect).

Although true, reduction of Nado reward is extremely helpful for Bowser and DK.

 

[Steeler]

i think mk "needs" to remain one of the best characters in bbrawl...mk is usually not any given character's worst matchup so just a nerf or two should be enough to close the gap. the tornado nerf is a great choice because it singlehandedly dominates some matchups (although i think it was nerfed a little too much) and dsmash has a very powerful speed:knockback ratio so that's cool too. with those two nerfs, i think shuttle loop can stay as it is in vbrawl and mk will remain a well balanced yet very good character. you can change the trajectory to be more horizontal if mk needs more help in staying top tier.

so yeah, since the foundation of bbrawl is the balance of matchup spreads, i think with a terrible tornado mk's matchups are going to fall much more even with the buffs low tiers have too.

anyway an mk that isn't top tier is going to be a pretty big turn off for a lot of people. top tier mk with just a handful of disadvantageous matchups sounds great to me.

 

[JOE!]

steeler, it will only turn off scrubby people who only main Mk because he's at the top...

those same people would main whoever happens to be best in BBrawl.

as for the off-stage issue A2:

DK and Bowser have decent enough ground games (along with new viable stages to help them) that they should be able to handle MK well enough before that becomes such a huge threat.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, but i think it's bad form to nerf down the top characters a tier or two (aside from silly stuff like falco chaingrab). there's a reason why sf hd remix didn't nerf the top characters.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The goal is to make every character equal (with a few notes about transforming characters who are in a kinda odd place). That's impossible, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to try to get as close as I can. Why would I, in my right mind, intentionally make Meta Knight better than the other characters? I'm not going to intentionally make him bad or anything either, but no character is entitled to top tier.

MK's matchups haven't been thoroughly explored, but here are the ones I'd look out for:

Bowser/Donkey Kong: They're listed together because they have the same concepts here. Both really didn't do that badly against Meta Knight in the first place, and the changes to Mach Tornado make their sizes way less of a liability. The power and weight difference between them and Meta Knight is just so extreme too, especially now with them getting better and Meta Knight's kill moves getting much worse; Meta Knight is really going to have to either set up and land the gimps consistently or play a very good game of "don't get hit" here.

Yoshi: This was always a weird matchup, but it gets weirder. On one hand, Yoshi lost his cg which was really useful against MK. On the other hand, Yoshi's "I don't die" factor combined with Meta Knight's newfound "I don't kill" factor is going to give Yoshi a seriously significant advantage in attrition-based gameplay (remembering that Yoshi has a great projectile while Meta Knight has none is important too); I bet a Yoshi who positions smart, camps hard, and has exceptional DI and momentum canceling would be really hard for MK.

Ganondorf: Did I really say that? Yes I did. The main issue Ganon has to look out for is being gimped; MK tends to have an easy time of that. However, if he can control center-stage (or if he cps a walk-off stage or something like PictoChat even with small off-stage areas), suddenly the power is on his side as his hits really mean something in a way MK's really don't. The main nice thing for Ganondorf is that, assuming we factor out ledgestalling here, Meta Knight's ability to play keep-away against him is not on par with most of the cast. In the air, Meta Knight is about as mobile as Ganondorf, and if Meta Knight wants to attack, he has to get decently close to Ganondorf which is always a much scarier place to be than, say, half the stage away.

Those fun cases aside, basically everyone sees a better MK matchup so just generally investigating the old high tiers will probably find you qutie a few positives. A2 brings up the MK vs Olimar matchup and how MK's changes really help Olimar. I can't say I've explored that one in depth, but what he's saying makes sense and in light of how Olimar already did decently against MK a + for Olimar now wouldn't really be surprising. Even random characters like Zero Suit Samus have just a strictly better time; she has basically an extra move (fsmash), paralyzer -> grab, and a better dtilt while he has to work harder to kill her. The ZSS people already thought they had a close matchup with MK so what do you figure that means? I just picked ZSS at random too; she's not notable in gaining anti-MK abilities but just makes you think about that.

Though speaking of Zero Suit Samus, while looking up what her board thinks about her MK matchup, I happened upon a suggestion that DK has a 0-70% chaingrab on her with dthrow. Really now? Does anyone know about this? It's news to me, but it's good I found out about it now if it's legitimate. It's bizarre that it would only work on Zero Suit Samus though; she doesn't have noteworthy physical properties that should make her a unique victim of chaingrabs.

Also steeler, HDR did in fact nerf the top tiers. The top tier in ST is Balrog, Dhalsim, Vega, and O.Sagat. In HDR, O.Sagat doesn't exist anymore and Sagat can only be played as an improved version of N.Sagat (the "old" characters in general are gone, though this only really matters for Sagat, Ken, and THawk). Balrog and Dhalsim both had powerful throw loops removed and had their supers get damage reduced from 60% life to 50% life (Dhalsim also got the amount of invincibility on his super slightly reduced). Dhalsim benefited from easier inputs, but in what is doubtless an unfair exchange Yoga Teleport got directly nerfed with more vulnerable frames. Vega's wall dive no longer knocks down which pretty much totally changes his game in a way that's not beneficial to Vega. He also lost his ability to store a charge on his flip kick which isn't a big deal but is a nerf. I guess they weren't severely nerfed, but to say they weren't nerfed would be inaccurate. I've also seen really disparate opinions on the balance of HDR. Some tier lists for it look kinda like ST tier lists except more compressed, and others aren't even close to similar with stuff like Bison in top. The only things people really seem to agree on for HDR's tier list are that Akuma is still too good and that Cammy and Fei Long are still near or at the bottom (though about a million times more viable than before).

 

[Deleted member]

yeah, but i think it's bad form to nerf down the top characters a tier or two (aside from silly stuff like falco chaingrab). there's a reason why sf hd remix didn't nerf the top characters.

capcom = AA ?

also they are nerfing sagat in SSFIV

 

[Steeler]

hmm, my bad then. i read a sirlin blog on hd remix and he mentioned that he made a point of not nerfing the top characters, aside from the really abusive stuff, kind of like the ddd/falco/pika chaingrabs. i think mach tornado falls into that category, and dsmash is really quite amazing, but a shuttle loop that isn't quite so weak on stage sounds like a good idea to me. maybe with a more horizontal trajectory to set up the gimps MK needs. it would still be a weaker KO move than in vbrawl as well.

 

[dansal]

Re-edit: nevermind I jumped the gun, sorry everyone!!

 

[Big O]

DK's cg on ZSS doesn't go from 0-70%. If you look on page 2 of their thread you will see that you only get a few dash grabs at very low %'s (as summed up by Brocoli King). Everything else was misinformation (probably due to the guy experiencing a smashville platform assisted Dthrow cg in friendlies ).

 

[JOE!]

DK could CG ZSS?

weird..

anywho, Steeler, the reason why they didnt touch top tiers (even though I think paprika disproved that) was for the same poepl I mentioned who pick (MK) becaus ehe is Top tier, not because theyre good with him/like the character...

 

[Linkshot]

I like MK as a character.

I like to ghey out with MK to troll people, too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser/Donkey Kong: They're listed together because they have the same concepts here. Both really didn't do that badly against Meta Knight in the first place, and the changes to Mach Tornado make their sizes way less of a liability. The power and weight difference between them and Meta Knight is just so extreme too, especially now with them getting better and Meta Knight's kill moves getting much worse; Meta Knight is really going to have to either set up and land the gimps consistently or play a very good game of "don't get hit" here.

Metaknight has no trouble getting a consistent kill on Bowser however. He edgeguards both characters very solidly, and Bowser in particular suffers more than Donkey Kong when it comes to landing on stage easily. A Bowser that is forced to land on stage will be a sitting target for MK's improved Down-B, which is a pretty legit kill move that isn't horribly affected by DI, so I honestly don't see MK really doing significantly worse against Bowser at all. If anything, the buff to Down-B might arguably have improved MK's options for edgeguarding Bowser, when you consider the space it is able to control.

Aside from that Bowser really never did well against MK in the first place. MK has little trouble poking Bowser with impunity and not getting punished out of shield as long as he spaces correctly, and Bowser's size is still a liability in making him more easily shield poked.

Donkey Kong might have a case for doing decently against MK since he has longer ranged poke options and the Mach Tornado being moderately risky on hit suddenly makes him less severely punishable in general, although he still will eat a lot of damage when forced offstage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Two words: Fire Breath

It may looks dumb, but, theorically, if bowser spaces well his FB, the opponent MK will have no option other than scape out of it, or looking for a reckless rush attach. In any case, MK could get more damaged, and he suffers a lot more with high damage than Bowser.

 

[Steeler]

the tornado beats the flame breaths (or i assume so, since it beats charizard's). iduno, tornado sucks in bbrawl but teh fires is still really slow and mk can just glide above it and hit you that way. or dimensional cape, maybe? never had a mk DC through it in vbrawl before. x)

it's a useful zone move but if you are spacing it correctly (so mk doesn't get a free nair/shuttle loop on you or something) then you aren't doing much damage at all if mk SDIs correctly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, I'd never try to make loads of damage with Fire Breath (unless the opponent has a vegetable-like mind), but I'd try to catch my opponent in the middle of it (not zoning, everyone knows that Tornado can't be zoned), and if success, I'd deal some damage that can be useful later, and most startups (though, I'm not sure about IASA frames on some of them) can't beat it once catched up, so MK must SDI out or in to exchange a hit.
So, THEORICALLY, it could be very useful, though almost impossible...

Spoiler

Pretty like beating opponents with only Dair being MK.

 

[JOE!]

Fire Breath and Ftilt both beat the nado

 

[Kalm]

Lurker whom supports this project a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=limy21zx1pc

vBrawl Tourny vid, Bowser vs Tornado/Shuttle Loop spam.
Highlights off him breaking the nado are at...
1:21-2:13-2:48-3:12-5:40-5:58-6:24

Obviously neither player is top class, but opinion would suggest that the MK wins primarily using Loop and Nado, despite the Bowser breaking it at many of the moments where it was actually at all possible.

In BBrawl, the Bowser player would likely win. This is versus a MK that only utilized the two B moves frequentlyl, the most of MK's other tricks weren't used well.

I believe this video suggests that an average MK will have a tough time beating an average or above Bowser, but at the top of the meta game MK would likely still have a considerable advantage because he still has way more safe options and gimp potential.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lokee]

I could believe Bowser having the upperhand against MK in BBrawl

but that MK in the video made me want to tear my hair out. Tornado tornado tornado shuttleloop and the cycle continues. Also that Bowser seem to use Fsmash a bit too much. Overall the Metaknight wouldnt be even considered a mid player.

Its still nice to see BBrawl support though

 

[Lucario1337]

Im gonna download it as soon as i can find a SD card that my cpu will read!

 

[JOE!]

the bowser in that vid sucked somethign fierce..

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I've been talking in the omelete back-room and they are getting pretty hyped about getting a forced get-up from d-air to d-tilt back. I just wanted to let you know, you may have Lucas support for this project soon. (I remade the .pac b/c I noticed a small error that could occur, this should fix it: http://www.mediafire.com/?zw4nyd3ut44 What it was is that I had put the bit variable clear in the get-up animation and not the missed tech animation, it should work great now)

 

[Lokee]

I've been talking in the omelete back-room and they are getting pretty hyped about getting a forced get-up from d-air to d-tilt back. I just wanted to let you know, you may have Lucas support for this project soon. (I remade the .pac b/c I noticed a small error that could occur, this should fix it: http://www.mediafire.com/?zw4nyd3ut44 What it was is that I had put the bit variable clear in the get-up animation and not the missed tech animation, it should work great now)

What exactly do you mean? Is is some kind of new setup or was it in vbrawl but got removed? Sorry if im not fluent in Lucas.

Reminds me which characters would benefit from setups the most? Either Kill or Combo ones IMO Lucas, Sonic, .... ummm who else.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It was in vBrawl but removed from BBrawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi probably would be a very good character with a reliable safe setup into a kill move.

Captain Falcon imo also kinda needs a more clearly defined setup into a kill move. D-throw buff almost does that but is still fairly difficult to follow up off of against good players. His buffs on various kill moves are all good, but all of them are generally still situational moves.

Ganondorf needs to actually be allowed to hit with something that is always safe when used correctly against good players. At the BARE minimum, his Jab has to have the ending lag cut so that it doesn't get ***** by spotdodges, since that's just the way everyone in this game works. Jabbing usually is favorable against the spotdodge for every character, EXCEPT for Ganondorf.

 

[ぱみゅ]

For Yoshi, less growth on Dthrow: not a kill move, but a good followup on most %s, a kill setup with good lecturing, and an addition to his good grab range shanenigans, since he got his grab release gone.

CF... A good setup would be if the Raptor Boost on hit had less ending lag, providing a better followup out of it. (just wondering... RaptorBoost > KNEE combo? =S).

Nobody said that safety on using a jab were a general rule... and it's not.
Anyways, is certainly almost useless as a move. It comes out kinda fast, but is pretty telegraphed, and relying on mindgames is player-dependant. Anyways, it can kill, so I think jab is ok, but he needs more tools to compete. He's a lot closer now, but he still needing some fixes to be truly viable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah true, nobody said that, but it works that way in basically every fighting game. Ganondorf in Brawl is pretty much the one exception to the rule that Jab is safe on defenses, and worse is that some characters are able to crouch under it. It doesn't need to be super fast, but it really should not be lasting over 30 total frames long.

Jab doesn't kill unless it's fresh and you DI away from him at like 140-170% depending on weight class. Chances are you're NOT going to be DIing away from him under normal circumstances when he Jabs since it's used to interrupt poorly thought out approaches.

 

[ignore the fire]

I've been playing this for a week or so, and a change that makes a huge difference are the meteor properties in Sonic's spring. It's almost ridiculous at how easily (and safely) his spring can gimp, especially against tether recoveries, recoveries that need to be under the stage (Ike and Link come to mind) and especially recoveries the have little vertical movement (DK). I'm not saying this is a bad thing; this is just one of the more obvious buffs I wanted to point out

 

[A2ZOMG]

Which unfortunately doesn't help Sonic's worst matchups, since many more characters usually have an option to outprioritize the Spring.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Dumb question: Does the SD card need to remain in the Wii console, or does it load onto the Wii itself?


Also: Do I need to repeat steps 1 through 4 every time I start Balanced Brawl?


Also: Are there any risks in loading Balanced Brawl? (data deletion, save data damage...)

 

[camzy]

Dumb question: Does the SD card need to remain in the Wii console, or does it load onto the Wii itself?


Also: Do I need to repeat steps 1 through 4 every time I start Balanced Brawl?


Also: Are there any risks in loading Balanced Brawl? (data deletion, save data damage...)

1. Take your SD out after loading i.e. step 4.
2. Only step 3 + 4
3. No unless you mess with it yourself.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Thank you. So if I began practicing in Balanced Brawl would I find it difficult to play a match of Brawl? I.E. Would I suddenly be awful in the original?

 

[Eldiran]

Thank you. So if I began practicing in Balanced Brawl would I find it difficult to play a match of Brawl? I.E. Would I suddenly be awful in the original?

Nope! The idea is to make the transition between the two as easy as possible. I think I have actually gotten better at vBrawl by playing BBrawl because it makes me take a better look at how to use moves that originally did not seem very worthwhile. For example, because of Ganon's Up+B buffs, I pay more attention to whether I can hit someone on the ledge with a dark uppercut, which is just as applicable to vBrawl.