Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Zeruel21]

As part of the outsider perspective, I've been interested in the potential this project has to fix Brawl's terrible balancing. However, I can't find much outside of the changelist, and those stats do very little to tell me what things play like. I can understand it, but it means nothing. More videos and demonstrations would really help pull people in.

If this project can do what it claims, it should be simple to attract hackers who want more fairness easily. It just isn't easy to buy into a such a large amount of files and codes without anything to see first. More attention from the WBR would also be good, so it looks endorsed as more than a splinter idea.

 

[Linkshot]

I personally wanted Tetra and Mewtwo in, lawls.

But yeah. I enjoy Brawl as a game, and I support this project because it gives that game more competitive diversity.

 

[JOE!]

As part of the outsider perspective, I've been interested in the potential this project has to fix Brawl's terrible balancing. However, I can't find much outside of the changelist, and those stats do very little to tell me what things play like. I can understand it, but it means nothing. More videos and demonstrations would really help pull people in.

This

I think that actually may be the first step to getting more interested, I mean, how many people have we had come in here and ask what all the #'s mean?

cleaning it up from saying "Falcon utilt: blah angle/damage/kb change" to "Utilt now does x% more and KB's at a lower angle, resulting in earlier kills" etc?

 

[Steeler]

you guys are right

i think we should release a ton of videos before the next update to build hype and get a good group of people into it at the same time

one for each character

one for stages

one for stuff like no jab locks, no triple jump glitch, no RCO lag, etc

also, i think pit's dsmash hit 2 should be stronger and jab 2 should lead into rapid jab (assuming it doesn't lead to dumb jab cancel abuse like jab jab fsmash)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A side by side Before and After could work for the last one.
Some of the characters would be a little boring. Like Fox doesnt warrant his own video, not to mention those who didnt get changed directly.

 

[Steeler]

A side by side Before and After could work for the last one.
Some of the characters would be a little boring. Like Fox doesnt warrant his own video, not to mention those who didnt get changed directly.

then put fox/marth/gw/diddy in the same vid

 

[Linkshot]

Fox would very much warrant a video.

Basically a compilation of him not getting 0-deathed by Chu, D3, and ZSS XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah so Steeler, if I am to understand correctly, instead of showing direct gameplay videos, we are demonstrating changes and how they affect individual characters?

I might be very willing to help this out and I would consider myself good at demonstrating things in a very in-depth way, but if you don't want to rely on camcorder quality footage (I will say though, I have a good camcorder), I'd have to request someone to take replays from me. Oh yeah and then there is actually the problem of how well I manage my time.

@Linkshot, D3 never 0deathed Fox unless I missed some really obscure footstool/grab release mechanic that I highly doubt exists.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, demonstrate the changes. we don't need to see an entire match. i could probably do this, i've got two friends with recording software.

 

[Linkshot]

Er, I guess I didn't get the point across.

The point was that we should also showcase what characters can't be abused by anymore.

 

[Steeler]

oh yeah linkshot. if we really want to, we can show all of the heavy/mid characters not getting chaingrabbed by dedede and show all their tech options. stuff like that.

 

[JOE!]

Er, I guess I didn't get the point across.

The point was that we should also showcase what characters can't be abused by anymore.

...Fox and the guys who got infinited by numerous Cgs?

anywho, those could be done in the vids of the Abusers, such as Pika, Sheik and D3.

 

[Zodiac]

So, I heard that balanced brawl was actually broken as all hell, is this true?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, I heard that balanced brawl was actually broken as all hell, is this true?

No, it is not. Balanced Brawl is actually pretty well balanced, basically strictly more balanced than standard Brawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh it's more balanced, but probably nowhere near in the way that was ideally intended.

 

[Linkshot]

It's definitely not broken at all..it's a very tame game.

 

[Lokee]

Here are two test PSAs with various changes for Ganon and Ivy.
Disclaimer: They are simply test and by no means are garanteed to be included in the upcoming version of BBrawl. Basically to show off ideas for changes based on info gathered from this thread and my own personal opinion.
So have fun with it and give some feedback.

Ganon Testing PSA

http://www.mediafire.com/?myntynowmmo

Standard Jab: Entire move speed up 1.5X and interupts 3 frames eariler. Move is much faster but not too fast

Fair: Fixed the glitch so now autocancel from a full hop or double jump. Makes the move a more reliable edgehog and aerial finisher.

Uptilt: Just for the Lolz allows interupt at frame 8 while "charging".


Ivysaur Testing PSA

http://www.mediafire.com/?uz4tk4mzxmt

Vinewhip- (grounded) added 1% to all hitboxes except sweetspot
(aerial) added 1% to all hitboxes including sweetspot

Razor Leaf: Added 1% and changed angle to 345 degrees to all hitboxes.Basically it sends you aways and slightly downward making it a weakspike.

Fair:Added 1% to all hitboxes. Now kills Mario at around 120% without DI

Dair: All hitboxes spike straight down

 

[IrohDW]

I tried out the Ganon pac and I think it is a great start for addressing his weaknesses. The jab is greatly improved. It is now able to poke very effectively and is much more difficult to punish. I think that it shouldn't have the extra iasa frames. It seems unnaturally fast and enables him to pressure more than I think should be allowed. the iasa on utilt is fantastic, it gives him a low risk/low reward way of dealing damage with the windboxes and is much more effective in protecting him from olimar's pikman. The only problem I have with it is that I think the iasa on the utilt starts too early. As it is now ganon is virtually unpunishable while doing it which makes it too much of a buff. Having the iasa start around frames 16-20 seems more reasonable.

there are a few ideas that have never actually been done for ganon that I think many here would want to test out
1.autocancel buffered short hop Nair so that he has a somewhat viable aerial approach against grounded opponents
2. super armor on side b startup.

Would you be willing to make a pac with these changes in it?

 

[Lokee]

Well the Uptilt was just for fun so I didnt consider it much. The Jab is as fast as it is so when it gets powershielded you can still use another jab. It does pressure a bit but since its just 1 jab (no jab cancel tricks) and it pushes the foe away so far it cant lead into anything unless there is a wall or something. Ill tweak these a bit and see how it goes

Nair I didnt touch yet. I didnt know whether to speed the entire move up or something else but Ill see. Also Id rather have make Fair a better approach option then making Ganon more like Falcon

I did add SA frame on one build that I didnt put for DL. It is difficult to exactly pinpoint where to put the SA frames. I think on that build I had it a little bit before the grab hitboxes came out and last during then a bit after the end which I think was too much. If anyone could give me extact frames then that would help.

Also understand I have at most basic knowledge of PSA so bear with me. Anyway has anyone tried Ivy yet

 

[Zodiac]

No, it is not. Balanced Brawl is actually pretty well balanced, basically strictly more balanced than standard Brawl.

I guess what im really asking is, is most of the cast viable against meta knight now?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I guess what im really asking is, is most of the cast viable against meta knight now?

They should be; Meta Knight is a lot worse.

---

Anyway, promising bug encounterd when testing out an edited Mushroomy Kingdom .pac. Somehow, raising the upper blast zone caused the scrolling rate to go way, way down. This suggests to me that somehow the scrolling rate and internal properties in the .pac are linked and there is a way to edit the .pacs of stages to change the stage progression rates in a simple manner. This is a bizarre bug on a few levels so I can't really look into it much right now, but if anyone knows more about it, please do let me know.

I also had issues with a test version of Corneria having corrupted textures. BrawlWall is just really buggy, but in the previous case, the bugs worked in our favor!

 

[Lokee]

Sounds neat. Sort of killing two birds with one stone or something

 

[JOE!]

I guess what im really asking is, is most of the cast viable against meta knight now?

that has nothing to do with what you asked:

"the game is horridly broken as a whole" =/= "do chars do better vs MK?"

first off, Mk isnt exactly the end-all be-all character, plenty of guys did decently or neutral in vBrawl against him

Second, why would you think a project based around balance would be hella-broken?

3rd, A2ZOMG: Is it really broken outside of team Disjoint, Mario + Samus, who you seem to see under a magnifying glass? What about the other 292398123198648196129836 matchups that dont involve them?

 

[A2ZOMG]

3rd, A2ZOMG: Is it really broken outside of team Disjoint, Mario + Samus, who you seem to see under a magnifying glass? What about the other 292398123198648196129836 matchups that dont involve them?

Marth is the best character in BBrawl, but doesn't alone destroy the game. The current top tier itself isn't necessarily "too broken" to the point that we can't make a good metagame based around them. Something that should be clear is that while Marth is in fact the best overall in this game, he is NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL of dominating when compared to vBrawl Metaknight/Snake/Diddy/ICs.

The worst characters in this game however STILL get destroyed solidly by the top tier due to just simply not getting the right buffs and failing as a result of the same horrible weaknesses that cripple them.

When I say the game is more balanced but not in the way intended, it is assumed that this project aimed to eliminate unwinnable or near-unwinnable matchups, which frankly has not happened 100% yet. Various characters also who were perceived to be buffed more or less than others clearly benefit from buffs to different degrees. While as a whole more characters can manage reasonable matchups against the top tier, the bottom tier still leaves much to be desired and severely lacks competitive options, and the changes some characters received could have been thought out more carefully.

 

[JOE!]

ok, this raises a second question, who is in the current bottom tier for BBrawl?

As it stands, everyone but ganon moved well out of Bottom...sonic went back down to it, as did Zelda...

and bowser just isnt as glorious compared to everyone else?

 

[Zodiac]

that has nothing to do with what you asked:

"the game is horridly broken as a whole" =/= "do chars do better vs MK?"

first off, Mk isnt exactly the end-all be-all character, plenty of guys did decently or neutral in vBrawl against him

Cant anyone mention meta knight without a scrub popping up? Dont tell me you think that low tiers can actually compete with meta knight in vbrawl? I just wanted to know the balance in the meta knight match up since that's easily the hardest match up for every character in the game.

Second, why would you think a project based around balance would be hella-broken?

I heard that it was actually quite broken, I haven't had the chance to play it yet. Im hoping next smashfest I'll get a chance to to check it out.

 

[JOE!]

MK is far from the hardest MU for any given character.

If you wanna be specific, MK is not the wall that stops most character's dead, its the fatter, bluer member of the Dreamland crew....with the big grab range.

MK usually only has 55/45 or 60/40 match-ups, and only REALLY good MUs vs like Ike, Ganon, Falcon and Samus.

In fact, lets look at this info from the MU chart:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

across both spectrums, he really doesnt kill anyone besides that handful if you average what each boards say (column vs row), and the only characters of which he's their worst MU are as follows:

, , , and

that's 4 out of...39? (toon link may be, but I believe the MK side is right on it being 60/40)

either way, he has the best Mus, and nearly 60/40's everyone, but that's it...he merely ha sthe advantage, not domination of the cast.

The characters mentioned now should either have nuetral or even good (samus) matches vs him IMO, with his nerfs and their various buffs.


2nd issue: who did you hear it was broken from, and why did you believe them without trying it yourself?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most of MK's matchups against the lower tiers are realistically 65/35s and 7/3s, and his BEST matchups against the worst characters in the game are legitimate 8/2s.

Metaknight in BBrawl still at minimum beats Ganon and Ike 65/35, and I would say that Ness and Lucas also suffer about that much in this matchup for similar reasons. These characters just don't really have the tools to really punish Metaknight or approach him, and MK still hurts them a LOT offstage.

 

[JOE!]

hmn..speaking of which, I wonder how BLink does against him?

it honestly isnt that bad in vBrawl, and in BBrawl link is a powerhouse who can gimp MK while on the middle of the stage...

 

[Linkshot]

There are simply just going to be 65/35s in this game. And, yes, MK deserves some of them, since he's also a character. 65/35 is not unwinnable.

Aside from Sonic and Zelda, I'd say we're currently pretty successful. One thing this would benefit from is a gentle nerf to both Marth and G&W.

Marth: -1% on fAir and nAir tippers (compensate for fAir knockback)
G&W: -1% to bAir (compensate for hitlag)

Does that sound reasonable? If MK needs one more nerf, -1% to dAir, but make Drill Rush better as a killing option (kills 20% later than Cape?)

 

[Steeler]

zelda having really bad matchups doesn't matter too much if sheik balances it out adequately

i still think MK shuttle loop should send you diagonally to the corner. outright kills even later but gets you high offstage

 

[rPSIvysaur]

65/35 is pretty **** bad. You also forget that since some characters are low-tiers they try to make their ratios for some characters better than they really are (aka Low Tier syndrome) I'm going to tell you, Lucas MU with Marth, MK and Snake are at least 35/65 in BBrawl and there are some that are probably as bad.

Also the goal for this project was to have no match-ups worse than 60/40.

If MK needs one more nerf it should be an angle change on D-air. Compensation is that U-smash should be able kill decently.

 

[Kalm]

It would be nice to have an easier to read set of information on the changes to each character, though it would easily be a waste of time for any change that isn't certain to stay for good.
It would be awesome to have angles demonstrated through pictures or short videos, with comparison if possible, and even only a partial amount of that around the board of characters should open up interest for more people. This wouldn't just please more common players but also higher end players, whom should be able to see and predict possibilities just from visual demonstrations alone.


I would also say that in my opinion it's a waste of time to focus on anything but the most one-sided match ups int he game and fix them before bothering with anything else, since the large changes that will fix the terrible match ups will already have an impact on closer to even ones.
There is almost sure to be a lot of reverted changes before everyone is satisfied, but I'd say there will be a lot less work in fixing the worst first and then going to the rest when we can see if these same areas even still need help after the biggest changes to characters have been made.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If Zelda is the bad part of the team, doesn't matter if Sheik can counter opponents move-by-move, they'll just won't die.
And what is REALLY disturbing is that Sheik deals insane damage, and recieve relatively much less, but Zelda, as any other "strong hitter", will be hitted much more times before she can get her kill, and nobody want to be hitted many times after working on building that damage.
With that metagame, Zelda is virtually useless, and despite their potential, they just wouldn't be used because it really feels dumb being hitted that many times.

btw, a new character/situatuion/fixes specific videos could be really useful for promotion. And if compared with vBrawl's, could be even better. If I had any tools/knowledge to help out with that, I would... D=

 

[Lokee]

You know whats funny that there will still be one matchup beyond 40/30 and that's Ivy vs Squirtle which is bad for the little turtle mostly cause the whole type thing. Also the fact we may buff Ivysaur.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ivy vs Squirtle isn't a matchup. PT vs PT is, though.
Not to mention, with the huge Pokemon change buffs, you should just switch away if you're that worried of the few grass moves and your usmash killing later.

 

[Lokee]

To quote the words of someguy I cant remeber PT vs PT the most complex ditto match EVER!

 

[Steeler]

so i tried the ivysaur .pac

vine whip is nothing to write home about, it doesn't really make the move more viable, just more rewarding on hit

razor leaf felt like a weaker version of link's first arrows to me. it'll knock you down and backward if you are in the air and force you to tech at high percent (like, well over 100), setting up a possible tech chase by ivysaur. it kind of gives ivy a high percent kill/switch set up. it isn't nearly as powerful as link's was (you can't charge razor leaf or anything) so you won't be knocking opponents clear off stage with it. it has some use when "edgeguarding" although i'd rather just bair in most of those kinds of situations.

overall i think it's a pretty cool change that is simply more rewarding on hit, similar to the differences between both pk fires in bbrawl to vbrawl. it's not as much of a game changer as link's arrows were (not sure about the new version with upward knockback).

fair is kind of like vine whip, except it's more feasible to hit with so that's cool. it is a 14 frame aerial that only does 12% max.

the dair change is pretty weird. the pac didn't have the bbrawl damage buff on it. with it, it's really no joke off stage as the non spike hitbox is quite large. i might update this post with a picture of it. you could maybe defend an all spike dair with vbrawl damage but i think it's too much with both buffs. i'd rather the move push ivy upward more or the non spike have a more horizontal trajectory so that you don't save people's recoveries when you miss the spike. both of these changes would make dair more feasible to use on stage, since often the opponent will just get hit in place and then punish the huge cooldown lag ivy has.

To quote the words of someguy I cant remeber PT vs PT the most complex ditto match EVER!

that was me.

also ivysaur v squirtle is no where near 70:30 ivy advantage. in fact, it's probably squirtle advantage.

 

[Kalm]

While I was on the thought from posting earlier, I thought of something that seemed interesting.
If I remembered correctly, in Melee powershielding was harder and generally better for having a ton less lag (more than in Brawl I think) and reflective properties.

I was wondering if it would be worth considering changing the shield for BBrawl to be like that, maybe only certain select characters that could benefit highly from less shield lag and/or reflectors?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I played a really good Zelda & Sheik in standard Brawl the other day (he specialized in Sheik but was competent with Zelda), and it reminded me of a few things.

1. Sheik is seriously good. Other than her ridiculous kill move problems, she's just all around a great character. Stuff that works against the entire rest of the cast doesn't work against her because her attack speed is just so high.

2. It's really hard to avoid kill moves against a good Zelda. She just has too many options (which are even more myriad in Bbrawl). The strategy of "use mostly Sheik, switch to Zelda for kills" is very legitimate. This is standard Brawl I'm talking about; it works even against Mr. Game & Watch who generally completely destroys Zelda.

3. Switching is fairly realistic, and by the way it's faster than ever in the next version of Bbrawl. Expect a lot more flexibility than you're used to in switching (this applies to PT as well).

---

I'm going to just come out and claim that Ness wasn't really a bad character in standard Brawl. His grab release problems were horrible, but that put him in the same boat as Donkey Kong and Fox. At heart, he was a high tier character. He had silly abuses that held him back. I doubt his Meta Knight matchup was even as bad as 65-35 in standard Brawl (probably more like 60-40); just watch some of FOW's matchups, and you see just how good Ness really is. Here's the first FOW matchup I pulled up, against a matchup in standard Brawl that is probably Ness's worst non-cg matchup.

FOW (Ness) vs DSF (Snake) [Smashville]

FOW uses way too much Pk Fire (nearly a full stock worth of the damage he takes is a result of poorly conceived Pk Fire uses), but otherwise, you see the point. DSF is no scrub; this is not low level play. Ness is solid mostly because of his really good aerial game and great set of grabs and throws. I know Ness is solid, and my decisions on Ness are completely informed by the fact that he is actually a pretty decent character. The funniest thing is that Ness is underrated in literally every smash game ever made, probably including the assorted hacks. I probably can't change public perception, but I can at least make the game the right way.

I think Lucas is being undersold in Bbrawl as well though perhaps he's not as widely misunderstood of a character as Ness (I really think most of the smash community has some bizarre bias against the EarthBound characters, like most people want them to be bad or something). Lucas has one of the best "boxing" games in the entire cast in Bbrawl; you can't act like that doesn't mean something. Lucas has a ridiculously amazing recovery (don't use Pk Thunder). Lucas's fsmash is just an amazing move on so many levels that is very practical to just land cold, and some recent play against Lucas has really solidified my confidence in this claim. This is old ground though.

A2ZOMG is literally the only person I've ever seen look at Bbrawl and conclude Ike is bad. I'm quite convinced Ike is a very solid character in Bbrawl; just take a look at his amazing qualities. He has the best jab in the game that was pretty much the reason by itself Ike is midish in standard Brawl. Ike has the best range out of the entire cast bar none; if your strategy against Ike is spacing anything, he wins by just spacing forward aerial. The new Quick Draw is an amazingly versatile move that really addresses most of Ike's weaknesses very well; Ike's real problem in the past was mobility (way moreso than safety), and Quick Draw lets Ike put a threat in distant places radically easier than he could before (and also changes his recovery from "pretty bad" to "solid"). There's no way Ike's matchup with Meta Knight is particularly bad; the only Ike matchups that are remotely worrying to me are Olimar and Ice Climbers because of their inherently good stationary defensive games. Someone like Meta Knight just isn't built to punish Ike's remaining weaknesses.

Ganondorf is old ground too, but he's being really undersold and underrated as well.

---

Also, I'll probably try to throw a few more things in and put out a fairly early build possibly tonight but maybe as late as Saturday, for the purpose of making sure the porting has been clean so far and to see if anyone sees anything particularly noteworthy in some changes I've put in so far. That Mushroomy Kingdom discovery kinda derailed me, to say the least; that's why it's not ready now to be honest.