Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Hyrus]

(Ganon's F-air) Unfortunately, that would equate to a huge timing change and a correspondingly large playstyle change, which may not fit well with this project's goals. Even though it'd work great, make sense, and help with balance, I hope it isn't changed, because after playing with that change, the next time I pick up vBrawl Ganon I'll suck because I'll keep trying to Fair when it's not safe.

Not that I don't agree with your points and everything, Mit, I'm pretty much just throwing in my vote against the change.

Ganon's Dtilt in vBrawl is an excellent (fresh) KO move while also being excellent out of choke. In BBrawl, Dtilt doesn't knockback an airborne opponent and can drastically increase the length of his techchase game. Learning to react to Dtilt/choke shenanigans is probably one of the most drastic changes in BBrawl that is utterly hypocritical of the project's goals. But AA or Think assured me that Ganon was bad enough to recieve such a major alteration to his gameplay (too bad they didn't feel the same about C.Falcon).

What irks me is that you seem to be willing to completely look the other way to just how altering the Dtilt change is, yet removing the landing lag of F-air, only on a buffered full hop, is somehow going to majorly alter how Ganon is played?

Good thing your vote isn't worth anything.

 

[ZacTASTIC]

It's been about 5 months since last release, hasn't it? Is there any expected date for the next version?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A few things to note on this discussion topic...

For one, there are two types of learning in a fighter. There's conscious learning and subconscious. On a conscious level, you have strategies. Things like "I want to approach with ftilt" are strategies, and it's as simple as changing your mind to change your strategies. You also have subconscious things like "I need to stand exactly this far away to outspace his attack" or "I need to press the button on this particular frame to powershield this attack". You never actually think about that stuff consciously, but you know it. You know hundreds of thousands of those sorts of things about the game.

Now, the fact of the matter is that the game is going to be different. We're changing the game. You can't change the game without making changes. The thing is that we're trying to be conservative and make adaption one way or another as easy as possible. We have gotten by without changing hitbox sizes at all (save for the Samus pummel which doesn't matter at all other than in the one situation where it's fixing an obvious bug). That means, regardless of how you are rewarded or plan to follow up or whatever, your spacing on all attacks in Bbrawl is identical to in standard Brawl. We have made very few frame speed changes, and each one we did make was made with great timidity and a determination of "it really is the best way". In 99% of cases in Bbrawl, you can rely on all the old timing knowledge you had before.

On a strategic level, things can often be very different, especially where a bottom tier in standard Brawl like Ganon is going to be concerned. However, the learning still has a lot of transfer; if you learn to beat Bbrawl Ganon, you will be well equipped to beat standard Brawl Ganon. Use the same timings and spacings you did before except you can use more bold strategies since he's less threatening. We felt like this was the most conservative path likely to produce the best outcome.

Note that when it comes to strategies, we do at least avoid changing overarching strategies. The very general idea of how each character is played is mostly attempted to be preserved, granted in the case of the worst characters often emphasized so much that they feel like they play completely differently.

As per Ganon fair in particular, I really don't know. I think it's a bigger change than some are saying (it's dishonest to say it's just from a buffered fullhop; you all know as well as I do that things like double jumps and being hit up into the air and platforms and slopes exist and create countless circumstances that autocancel window could prove relevant). I'm aware it's a bug, but I also have to consider that apparently DK fair has a similar bug. Really, it all factors into the broader approach to Ganondorf's balancing which is far from a closed book. It's something that will get more due consideration before the next standard release. I don't have a conclusive answer right now.

As per a release date, there has been a fairly major unexpected internal delay. I am not going to say anything about it publicly at this time, but consider it a chance for me to more slowly and carefully address assorted issues, for the hacking to develop further, and for the next release to be even more polished.

 

[Eldiran]

Ganon's Dtilt in vBrawl is an excellent (fresh) KO move while also being excellent out of choke. In BBrawl, Dtilt doesn't knockback an airborne opponent and can drastically increase the length of his techchase game. Learning to react to Dtilt/choke shenanigans is probably one of the most drastic changes in BBrawl that is utterly hypocritical of the project's goals. But AA or Think assured me that Ganon was bad enough to recieve such a major alteration to his gameplay (too bad they didn't feel the same about C.Falcon).

What irks me is that you seem to be willing to completely look the other way to just how altering the Dtilt change is, yet removing the landing lag of F-air, only on a buffered full hop, is somehow going to majorly alter how Ganon is played?

Good thing your vote isn't worth anything.

Aye, but the difference lies in that Dtilt is still landed in the same method; if you play vBrawl, you can use the same method (choke -> Dtilt) but you just get less reward for it. (No techchase options) To me, changing the method of attack is a much more drastic change than altering the rewards of said attack. (Even with that being the case, I was very hesitant about Dtilt upon the original release, and have warmed up to it since I discovered how much it helped Ganon out).

The rewards typically affect your strategy and longer-term planning, whereas the way you land an attack is more about reflexes, spacing, and reactions, which are harder to change.

ANYWAY. That said I am not strictly opposed to changing Fair, especially now that I hear it'd only affect full hops. I'm more playing devil's advocate so that we don't make a change that's unnecessarily drastic.

 

[Revven]

Eldiran, there's also times in which if you SHFFL his Fair, the move won't hit the opponent (even if you properly space it). There's some real crazy stuff going on with Ganon's Fair both in BrawlBox and PSA iirc according to Shell.

Just letting you know.

 

[Eldiran]

Eldiran, there's also times in which if you SHFFL his Fair, the move won't hit the opponent (even if you properly space it). There's some real crazy stuff going on with Ganon's Fair both in BrawlBox and PSA iirc according to Shell.

Just letting you know.

Really? I always thought that just meant I landed to early/started the move too late. In PSA it looks pretty normal, aside from the accidentally Synchronous timer.

Speaking of PSA, some modest Ganon-buffs just occured to me that would be nice now that we can use PSA: such as making Ganon's Wizkick kill opponents off the top again. That is, we could make it spike against opponents on the ground, and then just have the regular Wizkick hitboxes (with damage buff?) against aerial opponents.

We could also do the same for Ganon's Dtilt, restoring it to its normal function against opponents in the air, but I'm not sure if that would be a buff or not.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has already been thought of though.

This could also be done to Yoshi's Fair for aesthetic reasons.

 

[Big O]

Well the DK Fair bug is incredibly minor. If you fixed it, it would autocancel 4 frames before it normally ends. The only reason to fix it is basically just to get rid of silly bugs. I'd fix both Ganon and DK's Fairs just like you guys fixed Samus's grab attack not hitting Bowser.

I think fixing Ganon's Dtilt so that it has knockback on aerial opponents is also a good idea.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, Ganon's D-smash needs to be fixed so that it pushes people outwards on block (it's dumb, if he D-smashes your shield, free anything because it pulls you towards him).

Aside from generally not having a viable damage dealer of course.

 

[Lokee]

Also, Ganon's D-smash needs to be fixed so that it pushes people outwards on block (it's dumb, if he D-smashes your shield, free anything because it pulls you towards him).

Aside from generally not having a viable damage dealer of course.

Isnt that because it has that new angle buff so both hits always connect?

 

[Big O]

Nah it always did that. I think it happens when you block the second hit.

Ganon's up b (the grab part) can still be punished by MK Uair/Nair on hit so it needs a slight frame speed tweak in the beginning to fix it (just enough to move his legs out of the way). His down b is also still unsafe on hit at very low %'s so it could use a bit more base knockback on both the weak and strong parts. The weak hit doing a bit more damage to outprioritize stale projectiles and jabs would be nice too.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

I think what Ganon needs is a little bit of safety. Maybe something with range. Too bad he'd need to pull something like that straight out of his butt. Of course, what kind of genius could come up with a way to give the great king of evil some range.

10obviousplugsforeldiran'sPSA

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah it always did that. I think it happens when you block the second hit.

Yeah, exactly.

Ganon's D-smash would actually be a pretty good addition to Ganon's moveset if the **** 2nd hit actually pushed away on block, since the ending lag on the attack isn't horrible; it's low lag enough that I've baited people with it.

 

[Lokee]

You know someone should go in PSA real quick and fix Ganon's Fair, test it, and report back.

Also when thinking of shield stun/ damage does damage and knockback play a factor or is it just its own numerical value?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shield damage to an extent is its own numerical value (and some attacks don't even do shield damage from what I can tell), but apparently, buffing Warlock Punch to do 666% makes it an instant shieldbreak.

Apparently also, the buff on DK's Down-B did increase the shieldstun of that move to make it punish jumps out of shield.

I don't know how the knockback buff affects shield damage/stun on Mario's D-smash, but what is clear is that Mario's current D-smash is safe on block due to how far it pushes you away.

 

[Hyrus]

Ganondorf is the only character in Brawl (that I know of) who can't air jump and land back on stage from releasing the ledge. When ya mention Ganon using his jump to work around the autocancel window, it really isn't practical in a game and the attack doesn't have the angle or spamability to be abused around slopes. Either way, I appreciate the bug being taken into consideration.

 

[Steeler]

actually ganondorf can air jump and land on the stage

it takes some kind of special timing or tech or something but just watch one of the "super ganon time" videos to see it

i'm pretty sure peach can't do it though, and maybe dedede

 

[A2ZOMG]

actually ganondorf can air jump and land on the stage

it takes some kind of special timing or tech or something but just watch one of the "super ganon time" videos to see it

i'm pretty sure peach can't do it though, and maybe dedede

Ledgehopping with Ganon involves manipulating his hurtbox with aerials (or an airdodge), since his aerials all move his hurtbox upwards a bit during the duration of the move, and then I believe wacky "ejection" physics from the ledge contribute a little bit of momentum to your hurtbox manipulated jump.

In all practicality, the only getups that are really possible to do consistently are the airdodge and D-air getup, and the D-air getup is useless. The airdodge one I guess is now pretty good thanks to the removal of RCO lag. The other good one to do is the U-air getup, which is RIDICULOUSLY hard to do, and for me requires the claw position.

 

[deepseadiva]

i'm pretty sure peach can't do it though

Yea she can, along with normal airdodging into shield and even fully autocanceling a fair.

 

[The_Altrox]

Quick question regarding music.
You can add custom music to the SD card version of this game? If so, I can probably figure out how on my own, but I'm not aware of whether or not it's possible.

 

[camzy]

Quick question regarding music.
You can add custom music to the SD card version of this game? If so, I can probably figure out how on my own, but I'm not aware of whether or not it's possible.

Not possible unless you put in the latest file patch replacement code v3.5.1 in your .gct.

 

[Lokee]

Quick question regarding music.
You can add custom music to the SD card version of this game? If so, I can probably figure out how on my own, but I'm not aware of whether or not it's possible.

I think you have to be more specific as both need an SD card.

1) If you are using Smash stack AKA the one where BBrawl is loading from the custom stage menu then, it doesnt have music support or I think texture support for that matter.

2) If you are using the text file one to make a gct file with a code manager then loading it with gecko then, all you need to do is turn on file replacement and Im pretty sure itll work.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We have two downloads, one with file replacement on (3.5.1 I think is the version we have, which is a good version that should run everything important) and the main one with it off. Select according to your needs, no need to make your own .gct (though feel free to do that as the .txt files are freely available).

Also, fun small news point. I tested out putting all of Castle Siege's files on the SD card. Fast only begins to describe the loading times. The transition form barely exists anymore which IMO makes it a much cooler (and also somewhat more fair) stage. The only downside is that the total files for Castle Siege are pretty sizable altogether...

 

[Lokee]

So with this new file systems should we expect faster loading times across all boards eg: characters, stages, match loading times etc?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I doubt about the match loading times, but looks that, overall, it will...

 

[camzy]

We have two downloads, one with file replacement on (3.5.1 I think is the version we have, which is a good version that should run everything important) and the main one with it off. Select according to your needs, no need to make your own .gct (though feel free to do that as the .txt files are freely available).

Also, fun small news point. I tested out putting all of Castle Siege's files on the SD card. Fast only begins to describe the loading times. The transition form barely exists anymore which IMO makes it a much cooler (and also somewhat more fair) stage. The only downside is that the total files for Castle Siege are pretty sizable altogether...

Haven't updated it in so long it's actually v2.1a.

When's the new version coming out?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well, due to internet being down for a few days I was bored and recorded one of my old BBrawl replays against AA. Since a new version is coming out soon (hopefully), I thought getting some of these out there would be good as they'll soon be obsolete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9RV6_8j5BU&fmt=22

Not particularly impressive play from either of us, but I wanted to showcase G&W's dtilt on Big Blue's tracks. I'll try and get some more of my replays up, but no guarantees. I'm lazy.

 

[Lokee]

Ooooo queen of rose nice. This is the thing that always peeved me about Bbrawl...not enough gameplay videoes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Too bad it's only WiFi...

btw, Big Blue lock with GW? I saw what you did there, AA...
/sarcarsm

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now that you mention it, I just got a new camcorder. Aside from me getting new vBrawl footage up, I think I'll try to get more BBrawl footage up too.

G&W needs to have the power of his D-tilt upped slightly to reduce lock combos, and the damage of his B-air should be decreased.

 

[CarVac]

What about the effect on SDI-ability of bair that was mentioned earlier? Unless the hitlag can be restored to its current value...

 

[G.D.]

I apologize if this isn't the right place to ask, but is there any known site where some BBrawl players gather for wifi matches (or something along those lines)? As much as I love BBrawl, I can rarely find someone willing to play it outside of one or two friends...

 

[AdmantNESS]

Well, there is http://fsmash.org/. The only permanant chat channel there is the general channel though. There is a private channel for Balanced Brawl(and one for +). It is empty though since no one except me and sometimes another in that channel is active. I am on most of the day so Ill invite anyone who plays BBrawl online in that private channel once you register there. Like G.D., I do apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to talk about this stuff.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Ganondorf is the only character in Brawl (that I know of) who can't air jump and land back on stage from releasing the ledge.

Peach would like a word with you. Though due to her floating she can pressure the ledge pretty well from below.

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach would like a word with you. Though due to her floating she can pressure the ledge pretty well from below.

I explained on the previous page that she can.

 

[ぱみゅ]

btw, I was thinking, what can be made about Snake's CG on platforms? It seems very ridiculous...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Come on MrEsc, posting that replay makes me sad. I played so bad there it wasn't even funny (okay, maybe it was funny). Really though, I screwed up my zoning with Ivysaur badly then scrubbed out on the track (the curve made it hard to recover, but it should have been possible), I just sucked horribly with Charizard (I never even tried to use Rock Smash), and then I missed a critical tech with Squirtle (and also kinda sucked at my approaches).

G&W's dtilt is probably one of many moves that is going to receive changes to its SDI related parameters (either more hitlag, a larger SDI multiplier, or both). Actually, let's talk about this since IMO it's important. Here are the moves off the top of my head that can be problems, grouped by priority mostly.

Biggest offenders:

Donkey Kong dtilt, Kirby rapid jab, Falco rapid jab, Mr. Game & Watch dtilt, Olimar usmash (ceilings)

Smaller time offenders:

Meta Knight dtilt, Yoshi dtilt, Marth dtilt

??? offenders?:

Diddy Kong dtilt, Zelda dtilt, R.O.B. dtilt

The first group are the things that are the most deadly in wall/general lock situations. They are almost certain to change. The second group are only kinda bad and may or may not change; I don't think it's critical. The third group I honestly don't remember if they're problems; I know I've tested them before but don't remember the results.

If anyone knows of any others, please bring them up.

Also, we have utilt chains to consider. My view right now is that they are mostly fair and fit well into the balance of the game, and it's a reasonable thing to balance around when dealing with someone like Fox who is especially susceptible. Most utilts that have hope of chaining are pretty hard to land; I think they'd just completely suck if they could never lead into themselves like they do (G&W's utilt is a good example; it combos into itself sometimes and is still one of his worst moves, would just be useless if it couldn't do that). I'm interested to hear people say more about them, especially when it comes to the specific matchups in which they matter most.

 

[camzy]

btw, I was thinking, what can be made about Snake's CG on platforms? It seems very ridiculous...

It's not a CG it's a tech chase and it's not guaranteed by any means.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not a CG it's a tech chase and it's not guaranteed by any means.

Are both we talking about the platform-edge one (Dthrow>regrab when opponent begins falling>repeat>Utilt to finish), right?

 

[camzy]

Are both we talking about the platform-edge one (Dthrow>regrab when opponent begins falling>repeat>Utilt to finish), right?

I wasn't aware that he can grab when the opponent is falling...

You sure about that? It's usually a bad tech towards the edge that gives another grab opportunity.

 

[hankydysplasia]

I also would like File Replacement 3.5.1 instead of 2.1 to be uploaded.

Thanks!