Attention BBR: Change the time out rule!!!

[Luxor]

Yes.

10yeses.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because you need SOMETHING in place for when time runs out.

1. We need a timer
2. There has to be a rule deciding what happens when time runs out
3. Going by % after stock is not only the easiest thing to measure, but is the least arbitrary. You win if you have the least %, not if you have a varying amount more/less based on weight, or a rule like Ground Time which explicitly favors people staying on the ground over the air.

Unless you have a proposal that is not arbitrary (good luck with that), which is easier to measure than %, that will be the end of it lol.

Yeah no, I mean "don't break stock ties".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why don't we just use a ledge grab rule to determine the winner of a time out(the player with the most amount of ledge grabs loses)? The way I see it, every national I have heard about (after people found out about MK's planking) has had a ledge grab limit. You give them too many ledge grabs and the ledge grab rule will not be effective. If you don't give them enough, other characters suffer.

This fixes all the problems with the ledge grab rule and also the major problem with getting timed out. It also doesn't get rid of the ability to time out so that's a plus.

 

[Gea]

Because not all timeouts include planking, so that rule is arbitrary in some cases. What if the MK scrooges the entire match? Should the other player lose for getting on the edge more than the MK? Sort of the reason why airtime isn't used in our ruleset. In Japan, their rules are 10 minutes, and in the event of a timeout, the user with the most airtime is the loser. Being on the edge counts as airtime as stated above.

The argument against that is similar. If a match between, say, D3 and Peach went to time, the Peach would almost definitely be the loser even if she tried to approach the entire match and the D3 just rolled away and waited for a grab. That and people believe that running the timer is a legit strategy, and this would take that aspect away.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Because not all timeouts include planking, so that rule is arbitrary in some cases. What if the MK scrooges the entire match? Should the other player lose for getting on the edge more than the MK? Sort of the reason why airtime isn't used in our ruleset. In Japan, their rules are 10 minutes, and in the event of a timeout, the user with the most airtime is the loser. Being on the edge counts as airtime as stated above.

The argument against that is similar. If a match between, say, D3 and Peach went to time, the Peach would almost definitely be the loser even if she tried to approach the entire match and the D3 just rolled away and waited for a grab. That and people believe that running the timer is a legit strategy, and this would take that aspect away.

Good explanation of the inherent problems with LGLs and Air-time limits, followed by stating that there is nothing wrong with timing out in the first place. Thanks for saving me the time

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because not all timeouts include planking, so that rule is arbitrary in some cases. What if the MK scrooges the entire match? Should the other player lose for getting on the edge more than the MK? Sort of the reason why airtime isn't used in our ruleset. In Japan, their rules are 10 minutes, and in the event of a timeout, the user with the most airtime is the loser. Being on the edge counts as airtime as stated above.

The argument against that is similar. If a match between, say, D3 and Peach went to time, the Peach would almost definitely be the loser even if she tried to approach the entire match and the D3 just rolled away and waited for a grab. That and people believe that running the timer is a legit strategy, and this would take that aspect away.

As long as a character is not grabbing on to the ledge, everything else that is perfectly legal is punishable.

 

[Gea]

Yes, that is right. However, look at it this way:

You are Diddy, and you are playing against a Metaknight under your ruleset. You happen to be on Smashville. Metaknight flies under the stage nearly the entire match and although you two are tied in stocks, the match ends with time. In trying to punish Metaknight, you have touched the edge more than he has. You lose because he doesn't have to touch the edge in between scrooging, he can land on the platform.

Similarly, what about matches that go to time and don't involve planking at all? Many characters "bad at killing" go to time. Say a Peach and a D3 are fighting. Peach basically has to try and harass D3 while he waits for a grab. I've been timed out by a D3 that would just roll away and try to chase me while I land. Neither of us planked the entire 8 minutes. Why should the person who had to grab the ledge more (probably the Peach, because he can recover onstage safer) lose?

Unless I misunderstood your proposal?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yes, that is right. However, look at it this way:

You are Diddy, and you are playing against a Metaknight under your ruleset. You happen to be on Smashville. Metaknight flies under the stage nearly the entire match and although you two are tied in stocks, the match ends with time. In trying to punish Metaknight, you have touched the edge more than he has. You lose because he doesn't have to touch the edge in between scrooging, he can land on the platform.

Similarly, what about matches that go to time and don't involve planking at all? Many characters "bad at killing" go to time. Say a Peach and a D3 are fighting. Peach basically has to try and harass D3 while he waits for a grab. I've been timed out by a D3 that would just roll away and try to chase me while I land. Neither of us planked the entire 8 minutes. Why should the person who had to grab the ledge more (probably the Peach, because he can recover onstage safer) lose?

Unless I misunderstood your proposal?

If you think MK is going to use this tactic, then ban SV. There is nothing stopping him from doing this with the current rule set. At least with this rule set, MK is beatable. It's better than putting a number on the amount of ledge grabs(which TOs already do). As for Peach vs. DDD, IF he put you in a position in which he had you grabbing on to the ledge, then he must have been doing something right. It is your job to put him in that same position if you want to win the match.




EDIT: I found a fatal flaw in Gheb's time out rule. MKs can just plank right after they have hit someone. How are you going to accumulate launch distance if MK is planking?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Jebus, you're not the first to find THAT loophole. Been there, done that.

And if you honestly think that directly influencing gameplay and making the person who has more ledgegrabs, regardless of if it was used to abuse a "broken" tactic or not, should be disadvantaged... I have nothing more to say.

 

[Gea]

So you're proposing that you make a few characters arbitrarily lose/be disadvantaged in favor of forcing MK to air camp instead? Some characters need the edge more than others but can still very much get timed out by other characters. Why should I be timed out and lose to a Wario if I have the lead? He never has to approach me EVER after I have touched the edge at least once.

Furthermore, why should I be punished for grabbing the edge if I do it while trying to edgeguard? You're proposing a solution that randomly punishes players. It is a rule no better than the airtime rule.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus, you're not the first to find THAT loophole. Been there, done that.

And if you honestly think that directly influencing gameplay and making the person who has more ledgegrabs, regardless of if it was used to abuse a "broken" tactic or not, should be disadvantaged... I have nothing more to say.

Just think about this: what would you rather have? a rule that limits all characters but MK(35 LGL) or a rule that makes it so that as long as you finish the match, there is no limit to how many times you can grab the ledge. Remember, as long as MK is inside the stage, He is beatable. Most tournaments already use a ledge grab limit(35 LGL) which does nothing. I have yet to see a MK get disqualified for going over the limit. You must choose one because the way I see it LGLs are here to stay.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Err... Jebus, LGLs don't apply unless it goes to time. Not to mention that the idea is that only MK has LGLs. Not to mention that even without him, he's apparently not game-breaking. NOT TO MENTION THAT UNDER YOUR RULE, IF THE MATCH GOES TO TIME, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I WAS PLANKING OR NOT; IF I HAVE MORE LEDGEGRABS, I WILL PROBABLY LOSE!

Oh, and let's not forget-who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

Really Jebus, stop trying.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Err... Jebus, LGLs don't apply unless it goes to time. Not to mention that the idea is that only MK has LGLs. Not to mention that even without him, he's apparently not game-breaking. NOT TO MENTION THAT UNDER YOUR RULE, IF THE MATCH GOES TO TIME, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I WAS PLANKING OR NOT; IF I HAVE MORE LEDGEGRABS, I WILL PROBABLY LOSE!

Oh, and let's not forget-who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

Really Jebus, stop trying.

LGLs apply to every character in a tournament(not just MK). My rule is also only applied when a match goes to time. Grabing the ledge now becomes the same thing as tryng to get the percent lead. There is always going to be one person who is going to have to approach the other player to get that lead on the other player(In this case, trying to throw the character out and restricting his options to get back on stage) except this is a lot harder to do than to just hit and run.

with the winner of a time out being determined by the amount of ledge grabs instead of percentage lead the game goes back to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzoLsexU7SQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10mA9NR7yLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTHLsZL9iFg

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LGLs shouldn't. Key issue. When I advocate LGLs, I advocate MK-only LGLs. And even on that one I've become very, very spotty.

Furthermore, the game does not reward or punish grabbing the ledge other than positional advantage/disadvantage; neither should we. Get this through your head. The only reason to include a rule regarding the ledge is if ledge play was broken. Which, apparently, it isn't.

Your rule hurts:
-People with legit ledge games like G&W or Pit who get much worse due to this rule
-People who get ledgetrapped a lot and need to grab the ledge often to recover
-People playing against chars who are good at ledgetrapping.

Again: who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

 

[Spelt]

Again: who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

OO OOO OOH!
Meta knight?

 

[lordhelmet]

OO OOO OOH!
Meta knight?

Ganon was great offstage in vBrawl.

 

[ph00tbag]

ph00tbag, if he suicides he can't blame the rules for his loss.

lrn2read :bumper:

 

[SaveMeJebus]

LGLs shouldn't. Key issue. When I advocate LGLs, I advocate MK-only LGLs. And even on that one I've become very, very spotty.

Furthermore, the game does not reward or punish grabbing the ledge other than positional advantage/disadvantage; neither should we. Get this through your head. The only reason to include a rule regarding the ledge is if ledge play was broken. Which, apparently, it isn't.

Your rule hurts:
-People with legit ledge games like G&W or Pit who get much worse due to this rule
-People who get ledgetrapped a lot and need to grab the ledge often to recover
-People playing against chars who are good at ledgetrapping.

Again: who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

you never answered my question? all you have to do is choose one or the other.

 

[@TKbreezy]

Jesus When is this thread going to be closed...JEBUS CLEARLY HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT

you have switched main points like 6 times...everytime someone smacks your idea you just alter it a tad bit and present it again...just give up and shut up and go back to being a no one on the boards...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you never answered my question? all you have to do is choose one or the other.

You never asked a question. >.>

 

[swordgard]

Given the choice between having MK-only LGL and banning MK, which would you choose BPC?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

From a pragmatic stance LGLs. Banning MK simply isn't realistically feasible at this point. He's simply too much of the metagame; too many people will likely just outright leave if he gets banned.
From an ideological standpoint, banning MK by a mile.

However, MMM seems to be telling us that doing neither is apparently an option. And SL84, but I didn't listen to him because I didn't think he was more than insane. :V

 

[ADHD]

Let's just ban Metaknight :D

But a temp ban, and maybe in a month.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Why can't we just ban PPlanking? That's really the only reason LGLs exist.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How do you ban it effectively? In order to do so, you need:
-A solid defintion. This is gonna be subjective as hell. Does it have to be frame perfect? Can you have up to 10 frames leniency?
-A judge at every match where MK is involved
-Lots of judges that can tell quite accurately if that was PPlanking or some non-banned deriative of it.

Doesn't work.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Just think about this: what would you rather have? a rule that limits all characters but MK(35 LGL) or a rule that makes it so that as long as you finish the match, there is no limit to how many times you can grab the ledge. Remember, as long as MK is inside the stage, He is beatable. Most tournaments already use a ledge grab limit(35 LGL) which does nothing. I have yet to see a MK get disqualified for going over the limit. You must choose one because the way I see it LGLs are here to stay.

This question

At TKO, I didn't create this thread.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This question

At TKO, I didn't create this thread.

Err... Jebus, LGLs don't apply unless it goes to time. Not to mention that the idea is that only MK has LGLs. Not to mention that even without him, he's apparently not game-breaking. NOT TO MENTION THAT UNDER YOUR RULE, IF THE MATCH GOES TO TIME, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I WAS PLANKING OR NOT; IF I HAVE MORE LEDGEGRABS, I WILL PROBABLY LOSE!

Oh, and let's not forget-who has the best ledgetrapping game in brawl? Who (arguably) has the least trouble recovering without a ledge? Who is one of the best chars at sending you offstage and keeping you there?

Really Jebus, stop trying.

THERE YA GO. Christ, I know you're stupid, but you can't even read?

And even then, why this dichotomy? LGLs on MK alone are perfectly legitimate. And apparently, so is playing without them.

Furthermore, "As long as the match finishes"? That includes going to time, because that is finishing the match.

 

[sunshade]

THERE YA GO.

And even then, why this dichotomy? LGLs on MK alone are perfectly legitimate. And apparently, so is playing without them.

Furthermore, "As long as the match finishes"? That includes going to time, because that is finishing the match.

There is nothing legitimate about putting a ledge grab limit, exclusively for metaknight or otherwise. Its as illogical, and flawed as placing an aerial fireball limit on akuma.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right, from an ideological standpoint they are terrible. From a pragmatical standpoint when you realize that MK is nowhere near getting banned any time soon and that you may need a rule against it, if you actually do need a rule against it, then finding a better solution than LGLs is really quite hard to do. Depressing almost.

 

[GTZ]

bbr/mod politics VS. the smash community

Don't you think the BBR has discussions like these on their own when deciding certain rulesets? I mean, you have to have a solid application just to be considered, paired with a considerable working knowledge of all aspects of the game & then some. The people who tend to many of the pressing matters of the community obviously have their strengths and flaws. Without "draws/ties" in smash brawl, the timer poses a new issue. I do not need to repost what people are saying here, but it makes no sense to propose an untested idea. Nobody who is not a member of the BBR understands what goes on in those private conversations. How do you know how green the grass is on the other side? To effectively propose solutions to these "debates" would require you to gain access and authority. Look, it's like our country, you have to have authority and power to make a change. There will be some BBR members that you may not like or you feel aren't "qualified", but honestly its your opinion against theirs, and they call the shots. Mods/BBR shouldn't abuse their powers, I understand, and I assume we should have the right to post our opinions... The BBR should involve the community, via a thread or such, where you can vote on certain decisions that they are weighing. (just an example) Vote now on the timer rule:
1. same stock winner has low%
2. ties/draws
3. sudden death next ko wins
4. maintain same rule
5. other
** seeing an official room/thread for interaction (as limited as needed) between the general population and the BBR would prove to be a very effective solution for these threads, and anti-BBR decision discussions that seems to pop-up everywhere.. I mean look at the thread on the BBR tier list discussion.. It gets out of hand quick... The ability to allow the "average joe" a chance to express his opinion will benefit the community in a vast number of ways. Our government, though corrupt and faulty, is the most effective government system in the world today... This community needs less separation between the general population and the smashboards authority.

*Look, I really don't take sides in these discussions, I just try to see this from a general perspective. I have highlighted the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, and it's up to everyone to fix the issues at hand.. BBR/Mods, do not assume because you are a private, "cream of the crop" community, that there are not fresh ideas and very smart people on these boards who are not MODS/BBR members. There are many many people who are more than qualified to make an impact and state their opinions... Just because you reject "nameless person A" from becoming a member, doesn't mean that the individual is stupid or not qualified, it means that he/she is not qualified in your/whomever's opinion..
*General members/non mods/bbrs, don't flame and rebel against the smash authority because you didn't get accepted, there are reasons why things happen, and the BBR/Mod membership can be political, like any other community. Don't take it personally, just keep pushing to make things right for the community. The smash community is what matters here, not how many posts you have or how much you think youknow. The community and the many people in it are what matters... every noob, pro, mod, bbr member, guy girl whatever. No single person is responsible for making this community work.. it takes everyone.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

THERE YA GO. Christ, I know you're stupid, but you can't even read?

And even then, why this dichotomy? LGLs on MK alone are perfectly legitimate. And apparently, so is playing without them.

Furthermore, "As long as the match finishes"? That includes going to time, because that is finishing the match.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285468 Rule #18
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285468 These guys use the MLG rule set
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259535 50 LGL

The list of tournaments goes on. Does it state in any of these rules that the LGL is only intended for MK? No. Have you ever heard of any top level MKs ever going over the ledge grab limit? I know I haven't. The LGL puts characters that have trouble getting back on stage at a huge disadvantage. Putting a limit on something you can't see is a really dumb idea. I would rather have an unlimited amount of ledge grabs as long as the match does not go to time instead of only 35 if the match goes to time.

 

[GTZ]

why don't we just have a sudden death for the last stock, like earlier it was suggested... christ.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@GTZ

I run to edge, and start planking

WHERE THY GOD NOW?

 

[Luxor]

Planking the stage, you yourself said so. Unless... you don't believe in MK. Meta forbid.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285468 Rule #18
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285468 These guys use the MLG rule set
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259535 50 LGL

The list of tournaments goes on. Does it state in any of these rules that the LGL is only intended for MK? No. Have you ever heard of any top level MKs ever going over the ledge grab limit? I know I haven't. The LGL puts characters that have trouble getting back on stage at a huge disadvantage. Putting a limit on something you can't see is a really dumb idea. I would rather have an unlimited amount of ledge grabs as long as the match does not go to time instead of only 35 if the match goes to time.

Err.. Yeah. But we aren't arguing about what is. We're arguing about what should be. Are you saying that MK-only LGLs are bad... because no tournament uses them and instead goes with the far worse global LGL rule?

Don't you think the BBR has discussions like these on their own when deciding certain rulesets? I mean, you have to have a solid application just to be considered, paired with a considerable working knowledge of all aspects of the game & then some. The people who tend to many of the pressing matters of the community obviously have their strengths and flaws. Without "draws/ties" in smash brawl, the timer poses a new issue. I do not need to repost what people are saying here, but it makes no sense to propose an untested idea. Nobody who is not a member of the BBR understands what goes on in those private conversations. How do you know how green the grass is on the other side? To effectively propose solutions to these "debates" would require you to gain access and authority. Look, it's like our country, you have to have authority and power to make a change. There will be some BBR members that you may not like or you feel aren't "qualified", but honestly its your opinion against theirs, and they call the shots. Mods/BBR shouldn't abuse their powers, I understand, and I assume we should have the right to post our opinions... The BBR should involve the community, via a thread or such, where you can vote on certain decisions that they are weighing.

The majority is not always right. In fact, very often, the majority is wrong. Like, almost everyone is sure that MK's planking is unbeatable. Then you get a major regional tournament that doesn't have LGLs and you have the top MKs that join losing (and they were trying to plank!) and not even placing in the top 8.
Many, many people hold SV or FD to be the most competitive stage in the game, yourself included. They are all ridiculously wrong.
Many people believe that moving stages are a negative aspect of the game, or that the neutral gameplay of the game is 1v1 on FD. They are wrong.
Many people believe that Edgehogging is gay and should be banned.

** seeing an official room/thread for interaction (as limited as needed) between the general population and the BBR would prove to be a very effective solution for these threads, and anti-BBR decision discussions that seems to pop-up everywhere.. I mean look at the thread on the BBR tier list discussion.. It gets out of hand quick... The ability to allow the "average joe" a chance to express his opinion will benefit the community in a vast number of ways. Our government, though corrupt and faulty, is the most effective government system in the world today... This community needs less separation between the general population and the smashboards authority.

But these "average joes" are, on average, beyond ********. There's a reason we have a targeted aristocracy on smashboards. I mean, imagine if idiots like PottyTalk who supports the japanese ruleset, or Jebus who has no idea what he's talking about, or Kadaj who advocates the ground time rule (ignoring any arguments against them), or any number of other complete idiots had a say in things. The ruleset would become as awful as the Japanese one! Seen the MXBBR ruleset? It was put into place because of stupid players. The German BBR brawl recommended ruleset has your typical 3 starters and bans RC and PS2, along with a ton of other stages that aren't just proven to be viably competitive because the players hold interactive stages to be a bad idea.

The issue is that a lot of players are just flat-out stupid, and shouldn't have a say. Ever.

*Look, I really don't take sides in these discussions, I just try to see this from a general perspective. I have highlighted the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, and it's up to everyone to fix the issues at hand.. BBR/Mods, do not assume because you are a private, "cream of the crop" community, that there are not fresh ideas and very smart people on these boards who are not MODS/BBR members. There are many many people who are more than qualified to make an impact and state their opinions... Just because you reject "nameless person A" from becoming a member, doesn't mean that the individual is stupid or not qualified, it means that he/she is not qualified in your/whomever's opinion..

Well, stupidity does implicate that they are unqualified. If a person is stupid, they should not be able to influence the general community's perception of the rules. But if someone comes across with something really smart, why should it matter if they're BBR or not? The BBR respects that. Same with people saying stupid ****. M2K and ADHD were BBR, then ended up spouting stupid, main-biased bull**** that made no sense, and got kicked out, despite being two of the very best smashers in the world.

Again, a controlled aristocracy is a far better system. Trust me, I wish uneducated rednecks who believe that Obama isn't a muslim and isn't a US citizen and that all muslims are terrorists couldn't vote. Wouldn't the nation be in a better place?

 

[Kewkky]

@GTZ

I run to edge, and start planking

WHERE THY GOD NOW?

Planking with who, specifically? Any planking character? Or do you have a specific one in mind?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@kewkky

Any, really. As long as they can plank.

 

[PottyJokes]

lol bpc calling others stupid. good read

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Dude... you advocate the Japanese ruleset, which is literally the worst I have ever seen.

 

[@TKbreezy]

in The even that there is a tie in stocks at the end of a match:

A ONE STOCK BLOW FOR BLOW MATCH MUST OCCUR!!!!!!

rules for the blow for blow match

Played on FD, BF or SV.
Players stand in the middle of the stage....Players then rock paper scissors for the first hit

PLAYERS THEN PROCEED TO TRADE HITS (NO SHIELDING, YOU CAN ONLY DI) UNTIL ONE PLAYER DIES (BLAST ZONE)

now you are probably thinking...wait I can just **** with kill moves....Thats not the case

ONCE YOU USE A MOVE YOU CAN NOT USE THAT MOVE AGAIN UNTIL YOU HAVE USED ALL OF THE USEABLE MOVES

-USEABLE MOVES
ALL B-Moves
ALL Titls
ALL Aerials
ALL Grabs
ALL Smashes

you can not use pummel...and jabs are to continue untill they DI out in which that means your turn is over

Smash attacks CAN'T BE CHARGED...makes the game go faster
ALSO ANY MOVE THAT CAUSES A CHANGE IN STATUS (Jiggs Sing any move that cause a person to trip) mertis a loss of the other person's turn.)


etc.
Kirby vs Jiggz
kirby uses Ftilt as first move (which means he can't use this move for the rest of the game)
jiggs uses Dair
Kirby use Dthrow
Jiggs uses Sing
Kirby loses a turn from sleeping
Jiggs use Dsmah
etc

Game goes on until Someone dies...this is clearly, CLEARLY the best alternative to Timeouts.

^still the best Idea here