ATTENTION ALL TOURNEY HOSTS - Ban Ledge Stalling

[Omni]

Turtling and planking aren't comparable. You're not invincible while turtling.

And you're not invincible when you're planking. Planking isn't an infinite stall numb nuts. It's just a very solid defensive tactic. Like waiting behind a corner and shooting a guy as he runs through the door except better.

 

[Alex Strife]

And you're not invincible when you're planking. Planking isn't an infinite stall numb nuts. It's just a very solid defensive tactic. Like waiting behind a corner and shooting a guy as he runs through the door except better.

QFT I agree

 

[Flayl]

And you're not invincible when you're planking. Planking isn't an infinite stall numb nuts. It's just a very solid defensive tactic. Like waiting behind a corner and shooting a guy as he runs through the door except better.

Don't know which FPS your analogy is for, but the most common solution to that is frag grenades. It's a bad analogy.

 

[pockyD]

why assume it's a game

 

[Flayl]

why assume it's a game

Would you prefer I said mustard gas? The point is that there is a viable counter for hiding in a corner.

 

[pockyD]

he specified the parameters, not you

people don't generally walk around with grenades or mustard gas, expecting people to be hiding around the corner with a gun

 

[Flayl]

he specified the parameters, not you

people don't generally walk around with grenades or mustard gas, expecting people to be hiding around the corner with a gun

Do me a favor and read this out loud.

 

[Overswarm]

Flayl is my friend.

 

[Omni]

Don't know which FPS your analogy is for, but the most common solution to that is frag grenades. It's a bad analogy.

Wait, so you're saying the best solution is to throw a grenade when someone is camping behind a door?

Geez, if only you could do something like that in Brawl.

 

[pockyD]

Do me a favor and read this out loud.

can't, i'm at work

what's it to you?

 

[Overswarm]

Wait, so you're saying the best solution is to throw a grenade when someone is camping behind a door?

Geez, if only you could do something like that in Brawl.

His point is that there is a solution.

Let me break it down for you:

Every character with a grabbable or angled projectile has a 0-risk counter to ledge camping.

ROB, Pit, Snake, Diddy, Peach.

Every character with multiple jumps or a decent recovery is safe to leap off and attempt to attack the opponent, cerating no longer a "ledge camping" game but rather an edge fighting game.

*laundry list of character*

Every character with a fast running speed can easily grab the ledge from the opponent and gain invincibility frames, switching the situation around. If you say it doesn't work, then whenever someone ledge camps you, put yourself in the position they'd be in after they grab the ledge. After all, it's one or the other. You can't say they're both bad.


After all that, at the very least you could say "Snake counters ledge camping due to nades, mines, and nikita missiles".

 

[Omni]

His point is that there is a solution.

Let me break it down for you:

He's a big boy, OS. I'm sure he can handle his own. He said, "Turtling and Planking aren't the same thing. You're not invincible when you're turtling" implying that you are invincible when Planking. Therefore his point wasn't that there is a solution, but that there was NO solution.

Every character with a fast running speed can easily grab the ledge from the opponent and gain invincibility frames, switching the situation around. If you say it doesn't work, then whenever someone ledge camps you, put yourself in the position they'd be in after they grab the ledge. After all, it's one or the other. You can't say they're both bad.

I'm not sure if you're directing this toward me, but this isn't new to me. You do realize I am saying that the act of banning Planking is stupid, right? This just further proves the point that I have been making.

After all that, at the very least you could say "Snake counters ledge camping due to nades, mines, and nikita missiles".

Yes, I believe that's exactly what I implied when I said:

Wait, so you're saying the best solution is to throw a grenade when someone is camping behind a door?

Geez, if only you could do something like that in Brawl.

 

[pockyD]

textbook example of someone arguing with someone they already agree with simply for the sake of arguing

 

[Flayl]

Overswarm isn't my friend anymore

can't, i'm at work

what's it to you?

Nobody expects people with a gun in a corner behind a door IRL either. The situation is only appliable to videogames/military/SWATS/gangs etc.

Afaik, you can abuse invincibility frames to counter any kind of attempt to hit you while planking. I mean that's the reason autosnap ledges is so ridiculous.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Might someone remind me of the definition of Planking, Edgefighting, and Ledgestalling again, just so I can make sure I recognize each one and not end up looking like a fool calling out one for another? I should have had it down by now, but I'm semi-slow on the uptake. I tried searching for it but got several thousand different responces for it, and didn't seem to be able to get an exact answer. I'd appreciate any help.

Also, Mr. Mew2King, Sir? You are completely, undeniably awesome. I want to be as amazing as you are one day.

 

[Pierce7d]

What the hell has this thread degenerated into?

I'm going to take it from the top by quoting what I said in the thread discussing the 70 edge-grab rule.

By the way, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the chain of events which leads us to discuss banning planking. Let me refresh.

Ordinarily, Planking is not a viable tactic. The only reason it works is because we decided to implement a time limit on matches. A match is SUPPOSED to end by one player losing all their stocks, not by time-out. But we are still left with the inevitable truth that not approaching is a safe way to retain your stocks, and we need matches to end, or some tournaments will run overtime.

Now, because of this, no stalling rule was implemented. It basically comes down to, just because there is a timer, you aren't supposed to abuse it, and you will be disqualified for doing so.

Now, Planking is a form of abusing the timer. If there were no timer, one could jump on a ledge with their lead all they want, but if they wouldn't win due to time-out (which you aren't supposed to attempt to do. The other player would have the no longer viable option of just waiting for a time to approach that didn't extremely disrupt the risk vs. reward system.

Therefore, many people think that planking should be planned. If you can't tell by now, I'm kinda up in the air with my opinion.

Now this 70 ledge grab rule is a rule to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing the lack of a rule. LOL! Unfortunately, the alternative is having tournament running over time. We need additional rules to stop the game from interfering with the real world, which is how the underlying problem developed in the first place.

Now, just as stalling was a new strategy that came into play when the timer was added, forcing your opponent to grab the edge 70 times will derive as a strategy. Of course, I don't see it as a very viable strategy, LULZ.

You all should keep this in mind when talking about whether or not you think this is an amazing rule or a horrible one. Knowing why rules exist and understanding them is important in these discussions.

Now, this IS the thread to discuss whether or not Planking should be banned. In my opinion, the act of putting yourself in a positional advantage should not be banned. That much is more than obvious.

Therefore, we must decide if Planking falls under the realm of stalling or not. For that, we need an accurate definition of stalling.

Stalling is essentially trying to end a match by deliberately running out the clock.

Planking is essentially trying to put yourself in a hyper-defensive position so you can win by a percent lead by the time-out of the clock, utilizing the ledge, and the invincibility frames it provides.

Planking would NOT be a viable strategy if there was no clock.

In my latest opinion, when a player begins Planking, they are not attempting to defeat their opponent by removing all three of their stocks which is the victory we should strive for competitive play to revolve around (otherwise, this game will get really boring, really quick. Super Smash Bros Tag is not fun, lulz. That's why New Pork City is BANNED). They are attempting to manipulate the rules in place necessary for tournaments to end at a reasonable time. Therefore, under our current ruleset, I feel Planking should be banned.

Of course, the implementation of the timer in the first place decides to accelerate the tournament at the cost of the person who was losing, so the decision to put the player with a percent disadvantage at a further disadvantage and force them to attack was done the moment we put in the timer. Still, as I already stated, neither player should deliberately attempt to use this timer to their tactical advantage (except of course, timing things).

Yes, it's true that some characters have answers to planking, but that doesn't make a wrongful strategy not wrong. For instance, Jigglypuff's rising pound has typically been banned as a stalling tactic without much dispute. It is true that one could simply just choose Ness and used PKThunder repeatedly to snipe Jigglypuff from the air, but the game would deteriorate into situations like these, and not be played in it's proper fashion.

Screw Sirlin if he really thinks that the truest way to preserve the competitive factor in a game is to leave everything as is. That's a fool's way of thinking. We are given Brawl as a package, and we have to use our better judgment to decide which parts to use and which parts are faulty. The timer is a good part to use, because not attacking your opponent ever and merely counter attacking is an extremely good strategy, but matches need to end. Abusing the timer to win REDUCES THE COMPETITIVE VALUE OF THE GAME.

Just my .02 on the matter.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

according to the rules, stalling is a situation where you are untouchable
post 291 lists multiple ways to get around planking, so i would say it's not stalling
planking is just a form camping.

 

[Overswarm]

Now, because of this, no stalling rule was implemented. It basically comes down to, just because there is a timer, you aren't supposed to abuse it, and you will be disqualified for doing so.

This is incorrect.

 

[memphischains]

lets just all listen to overswarm

hes like, the smartest dude ever

 

[Overswarm]

agreed .

 

[Omni]

Abusing the timer to win REDUCES THE COMPETITIVE VALUE OF THE GAME.

You can't regulate people who abuse the timer, Pierce. Do you know why there's a timer implemented in fighting games? To make sure the game ends. The rule is that whoever is in the lead when the time is up wins. This means there are two main ways to win in fighting games:

1.) Defeat your opponent by reducing their life bar to 0% or in this case remove all 3 stocks.
2.) Gain a lead on your opponent and keep it until the clock runs out.

Because having the lead at the end of a timed game awards the person with a win, there's nothing wrong with "abusing" the timer. It is a legitimate strategy. You may not LIKE the strategy, but it is an ends to a mean of winning.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

Planking is as very effective defensive maneuver. That's it. I get tired of hearing all this, "It makes the game so unfun." bull ****. I don't care about people's feelings toward the game. Feelings is what makes people scrubby, limited, and unable to think logically.

So instead of focusing on feelings, let's come to the conclusion on what's factual and logical.

I'd rather not crush this entire thread in a single post, so I'll leave this open for more discussion before I prove 90% of the people in here are wrong and/or stupid.

 

[Lobos]

Omni ***** <3 hard

 

[OverLade]

The timer is no different than the edge rule, because neither are "official" game rules.

Logic fights logic. If this rule is disrupting the flow of the game...then so is a timer.

That's the exact logic that plank used against this rule.

 

[pockyD]

...how is the timer not part of the game?

 

[Omni]

Surely you jest, Red Halberd.

Are you suggesting that the timer be removed from the game?

Please tell me that's not what you're suggesting.

And if that's not what you're suggesting, then what exactly is your argument?

 

[Deleted member]

let's get rid of the timer, so when people plank, they can't win with it.

 

[Omni]

let's get rid of the timer, so when people plank, they can't win with it.

Mow, you're obviously kidding.

Getting rid of the timer means Brawl sets can last as long as 30+ minutes if both players are patient. That wouldn't be tourny viable by any means.

 

[Deathcarter]

I have a better idea, lets make double tournaments the standard match archtype or whatever for Brawl. Now you can't stall the clock unless you want to have your partner get double teamed and owned and better yet, you have two opponents blocking one or perhaps both edges. My logic owns all.

I am being serious by the way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But isn't that exactly what RedHalberd is referring to, Omni? The only reason a timer is needed is to prevent matches from taking too long - a tourney could never be kept within a reasonable frame if these time limits didn't exist. Planking abuses exactly that rule and thus - whether it's broken or not - should be considered cheating.

I'm not saying that I agree or anything but I have a feeling that you actually missed RedHalberds point.

 

[Omni]

If the time constraints were a problem, then if anything, the time limit should be decreased.

What I'm trying to get people to understand is that "abusing" the timer ISN'T illegal or wrong.

 

[pockyD]

I have a better idea, lets make double tournaments the standard match archtype or whatever for Brawl. Now you can't stall the clock unless you want to have your partner get double teamed and owned and better yet, you have two opponents blocking one or perhaps both edges. My logic owns all.

I am being serious by the way.

doubles events already exist

But isn't that exactly what RedHalberd is referring to, Omni? The only reason a timer is needed is to prevent matches from taking too long - a tourney could never be kept within a reasonable frame if these time limits didn't exist. Planking abuses exactly that rule and thus - whether it's broken or not - should be considered cheating.

I'm not saying that I agree or anything but I have a feeling that you actually missed RedHalberds point.

playing within the rules is not cheating

 

[Deathcarter]

doubles events already exist

I know they exist, but you would be lead to beleive that because doubles are almost never complained about and singles are almost always complained about, you'd think people would endorce the more competetive option a lot more than the (much) less competetive option.

Then again, I am biased for doubles and find them much more fun than singles.

 

[AvaricePanda]

What I'm trying to get people to understand is that "abusing" the timer ISN'T illegal or wrong.

This.

Not only is there already a timer, so people shouldn't be able to complain that planking abuses time limits, but it's not as if planking is impossible to stop. Run over and intentionally fall into your opponents trap, and they stop planking.

And technically, if you stand on the stage while your opponent planks, you're stalling just as much as they are.

(braces for comments)

 

[pockyD]

I know they exist, but you would be lead to beleive that because doubles are almost never complained about and singles are almost always complained about, you'd think people would endorce the more competetive option a lot more than the (much) less competetive option.

Then again, I am biased for doubles and find them much more fun than singles.

i don't know about where you are, but in norcal, doubles doesn't get second-rate treatment at all. the entry fee (per player) and the payout structure are the same as in singles, and a lot of people (myself included, most of the time) enter only doubles, and not singles

singles gets a bigger crowd of spectators simply because people like it more (largely because it's much easier to follow than a doubles match)... but as a competitor, doubles does not get the short end of the stick in any way. in fact, it generally pays out a higher "percentage" of the placements, simply because there are ~half as many entrants, but the same number of payouts

 

[Lizard]

Standing on the edge while someone planks considered stalling? WTF is this?

Is they want to plank, and you have a percentage or stock lead, there is absolutley no need to approach.
This is not stalling.... thats just choosing not to play dumb!

Wwhen a 0% lucario gets killed because a planking 150% MK shuttle loops him during a plank, then edgehogs for the win, thats stupid.

No Hate Panda, just feedback.

 

[Mew2King]

You can't regulate people who abuse the timer, Pierce. Do you know why there's a timer implemented in fighting games? To make sure the game ends. The rule is that whoever is in the lead when the time is up wins. This means there are two main ways to win in fighting games:

1.) Defeat your opponent by reducing their life bar to 0% or in this case remove all 3 stocks.
2.) Gain a lead on your opponent and keep it until the clock runs out.

Because having the lead at the end of a timed game awards the person with a win, there's nothing wrong with "abusing" the timer. It is a legitimate strategy. You may not LIKE the strategy, but it is an ends to a mean of winning.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

Planking is as very effective defensive maneuver. That's it. I get tired of hearing all this, "It makes the game so unfun." bull ****. I don't care about people's feelings toward the game. Feelings is what makes people scrubby, limited, and unable to think logically.

So instead of focusing on feelings, let's come to the conclusion on what's factual and logical.

I'd rather not crush this entire thread in a single post, so I'll leave this open for more discussion before I prove 90% of the people in here are wrong and/or stupid.

you support planking and are backing up that it's fair, you're dumb

this is really tempting me to just abuse it until you all see how stupid it is

it is NOTHING like other fighting games camping where you can just fight them on the stage

it is not comparable AT ALL

I could 3 stock ANYONE if I just got a lead then went to the edge. The fact that I could easily do that to anyone and beat them so badly proves how stupid it is. Fighting people can make close games AND BE FUN but running to the ledge having a huge advantage the ENTIRE time just from a small lead is not fair at all. Sometimes strategies are so broken that they shouldn't be allowed, but if you insist on saying it's not fair then every time that it's not banned I am going to abuse it from now on. Is that what you want the game to come down to? I really like fighting people but I also like winning but if no one seems to have a problem with this then I will just use it to make winning even easier than it already is.

 

[JFox]

M2k, I say go for it. If you want something done, you've gotta do it yourself. Show how gay it is by planking someone the ENTIRE match of finals and show how broken it is. If you can do it as well as you say u can, than it should be the last time u have to show people, cuz people will surely ban it.

BTW, LOL at your sig "*Not a robot" hahahaha too good.

 

[otg]

m2k you should start planking every match. That way people will look at competitive brawl matches and just be like "ewww". Maybe we'll start focusing on the better game as a whole where **** like this don't apply.

 

[Fletch]

M2k, I say go for it. If you want something done, you've gotta do it yourself. Show how gay it is by planking someone the ENTIRE match of finals and show how broken it is. If you can do it as well as you say u can, than it should be the last time u have to show people, cuz people will surely ban it.

BTW, LOL at your sig "*Not a robot" hahahaha too good.

This.

m2k you should start planking every match. That way people will look at competitive brawl matches and just be like "ewww". Maybe we'll start focusing on the better game as a whole where **** like this don't apply.

And this. Do it M2K.

 

[Plairnkk]

m2k nobody has really proven it banworthy so do ur thing and prove it so.

speculation never got anyone anywhere, look at george bush with weapons of mass destruction!!!!

m2k supports invading countries under false pretenses, what a prick