At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[Perfect Chaos]

I don't mind the lost of SHDF as much as SH f-air»u-air. If SHDF stays out, at least make it have IASA into u-air... But if the nerf was made to get rid of f-air to u-air, as well, then that's quite the disappointment.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Marth users: Try SH Air sideB to Fair. It's just as good shield pressure IMO. Although, it's fantasy in my mind.

Anyway.

Any changes to Diddy? AT ALL? I mean I heard Uair might have been made laggier and cried inside. =/

EDIT: Holy ****, Naner change was reverted? **** YES. >:3

 

[Deleted member]

Whenever I go into Group>Brawl my game freezes, I'll redownload and reinstall the files again, just in case I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really. Even in RC1, thunder stuff wasn't that big anymore. As Toronto+ got more experienced on how to play against Pika, they learned to DI to avoid thunder finishers. Even previously, I said usmash was the only "semi legit" way to combo into thunder.

Up tilt combos into thunder at very high percents.
Dsmash combos into thunder if you don't DI - with that said, there are two different opportunities to SDI dsmash.

Now I realize up smash is also easily Smash DIable. To combo, or more appropriately "string" into thunder, you pretty much have to read them, or play against someone who sucks.

Thunder is much more apporpiate for edgeguarding, and even then, a smart opponent can learn to bypass these thunders.

Long story short, learn to DI.

Got the set of 5ive (Pika) vs. Eugene (Falcon) saved/uploaded? If so id use those videos to shut up johning about thunder. Eugene knew how to DI thunder well.

 

[proteininja]

so wait... is there really no changelist? if not, why?

Well, they will tell you its so you can go "discover them for yourself". When in actuality they probably don't have the list finished.

Not having a change list is super dumb. I can't tell the difference between .46 and .48 hitstun so I sure as hell am not going to be able to know if Bowsers fair has 3 more whatevers of KBG.

If you guys actually have a list. You need to release it.

 

[Isatis]

As much as I want one myself, here's the issue that came up several times. People say there's a changelist and notice a certain move is nerfed/buffed and complain about how it's too good or too bad before actually trying out and playing it. Cape was so fed up about proving people wrong in these buffs/nerfs that he decided to not release a changelist and having you all play it first without going on a refuting claim based on the changelist itself.

 

[Shadic]

This set is crashing on me now. I went to update everything in my PF file, and now it insta-crashes on loading the CSS.
I reformatted my card, installed from scratch with nothing but what was included. New gct, everything straight from the site.
And VBrawl loads fine. And plays fine... For what it is.

Im having this same problem does any one have a solution to this?

Whenever I go into Group>Brawl my game freezes, I'll redownload and reinstall the files again, just in case I'm doing something wrong.

Sure would be nice if somebody would at least acknowledge this.

 

[Isatis]

Question to all 3 of you: did you install the team textures?

Try erasing common5.pac, that's usually why it freezes

 

[Shadic]

I have no textures at all, with the exception of one replacing SSE Jungle, but that's certainly not the cause.

I'll try common5.pac later, no idea why this set was packed with a faulty one, though.

 

[Isatis]

It wasn't actually packed with a faulty one, or else my own Brawl would freeze as well, I was just wondering if that was the cause of why you were having issues loading it... =O

 

[Chepe]

I have the team textures, a load of other character textures, and one stage texture also replacing SSE Jungle, and the set runs perfectly fine with me. It can't be something directly wrong with the set...

Anyways, I'm here to state something that's been on my mind for a while concerning Yoshi in these Brawl+ sets. I've noticed that his current Side B properties effectively let him wall climb/stall on any stage with a bottomless vertical wall (Warioware, SSE Jungle, etc). This is because of his Side B restoring his second jump. Was this intentional? Otherwise, is there a way to make it so that Yoshi still doesn't go into helpless state out of Side B but still retain his second jump if he hasn't used it yet?

 

[ZacTASTIC]

I heard some people talking about Fox's laser causing a cape-like effect... Is this real? I played with a friend for a while as Fox and it never worked.

 

[The_Guide]

What does common5.pac do? I'd like to know its purpose before I delete it.

Yeah, I've been getting the freezes too.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I heard some people talking about Fox's laser causing a cape-like effect... Is this real? I played with a friend for a while as Fox and it never worked.

No, it's just a problem with CPUs that has always existed. People just thought it was a change in GSH2, since there's no change list and so they just think everything that's new to them is a change.

What does common5.pac do? I'd like to know its purpose before I delete it.

Yeah, I've been getting the freezes too.

common5.pac changes the "handicap" text into "buffer", and changes the stage images/names for Rumble Falls and Temple into Wi-Fi Training Room and SSE: Jungle, repectively. I'm pretty sure there are no non-cosmetic mods at the moment in common5.pac.

 

[Swordplay]

i have a technical question. somebody mentioned that samus bombs were changed

how did you changes samus bombs? was the data located in commonpac3 or fighterpac?

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

SSE: Jungle

PSST...call it Junglefield. Much cooler. =D

I looked at Falco earlier and I'm not feeling any changes in ugrav. So maybe what was mentioned earlier might have been false. Dunno.

 

[VietGeek]

I don't mind the lost of SHDF as much as SH f-air»u-air. If SHDF stays out, at least make it have IASA into u-air... But if the nerf was made to get rid of f-air to u-air, as well, then that's quite the disappointment.

IMO one of the more important things affected by the IASA change is the fact that fair from anything but a shorthop has become less effective. The lag tacked on might be too high at the moment (by too high I mean readjusting it 2 or so frames down would make some difference; really).

It definitely affects any combos involving an aerial after fair and basically all fulljump and double jump-related combos, which were probably barely combos before, but now may have definitely become strings. It's nice to see people using moves other than fair all the time, but only fair and uair serve as the definitive combo moves. I well see the intentions and goals the nerf wished to serve, but also find that the nerf has not quite found that "middle ground" magic.

One cannot deny how amazing Marth is as a character, however one cannot also deny how lackluster using sourspotted nair or bair is for reliable combos either.

Marth users: Try SH Air sideB to Fair. It's just as good shield pressure IMO. Although, it's fantasy in my mind.

This sick fantasy is pretty sick...

like in an ill sort of manner. <_<

Hmm...it seems everyone's shorthop ascent animations have been sped-up slightly? Maybe? ...hmm.

 

[JayFizzy]

Why nerf MK even more T_T

 

[GHNeko]

Because he needs to be in Mid Tier Mediocrity.

 

[Veril]

Why do you think MK got nerfed? Poor guy got nerfed so hard prior to this set. W/e he's still pimp as h***.

I'm glad to see the new Marth fair. Stop whining about your awesome character. That said I'll look into fair's advantage on hit. Its amazing on block out of a SHFF. AMAZING. We already know this. Its still true, I checked earlier. I have no doubt its amazing on hit if land canceled, but I'll check.

 

[JayFizzy]

I just dont see the point of nerfing a character thats already mid tier...

 

[GHNeko]

MK seemingly got nerfed because of the nerf to his Nair, I have yet to play him enough to feel if he was compensated in any way shape or form.

And the removal of tactics that have been a staple part of a character's metagame for multiple smash games and become part of the sole reason this character is known for is nothing to really take sitting down.

I know you would take Jiggs' staple "combo into rest" tactics sitting down.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I just dont see the point of nerfing a character thats already mid tier...

mid tier? even with all his nerfs, MK was still easily top tier.

 

[Plum]

And he's still insane.

Nerf him as much as you want, but as long as he has his combination of speed, range, and jumps the man is practically perfect.
All his flaws are lessened to such a degree because of how easy it is for MK to always remain safe. He applies high pressure, eliminates your options down to very few, and then puts you off stage. All while keeping his own *** out of harms way.

I can guarantee that he is still the best character in the game. The only thing holding him back is the lack of MK players, and maybe more so the lack of playing MK in the most optimal way to insure a win. By that I mean being very patient, and very gay. MK can still air camp just as well in B+ as he could in vBrawl. Dair, Uair, and Fair when all put together are almost perfect. Take away transcendent priority and they probably would be perfect. Projectiles are MK's one true weakness, and even then his multiple jumps and speed allow him to get away from them better than most characters even with no ability to cancel projectiles.

Moral of the story:
MK's character design is far too close to perfect to ever have him not be the best in the game without making him the worse instead.

 

[JayFizzy]

May be placebo, but i am pretty sure that MK also got a glide attack landing lag increase

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...People complain about Metaknight the same way retro***s complain about Sonic games. They're just completely butthurt because they didn't get what they want or they just suck at the game. -.o

I've said it before and I'll say it as many times as I want no matter how pissed anyone gets, but Meta really ISN'T that hard. In fact he isn't hard at all. In fact...

...Oh **** it. It's not like anyone else shares this sentiment. I don't even use the guy so nerf him all ya want. One more punching bag I already had. ¦D

 

[Veril]

I'm still going to main MK along with Jiggs in this. And I suggested (along with Glick) the removal of all her throw to rest combos.

MK isn't the best character at this point, but he's really good. I'm not exactly thrilled about the nair change though.

 

[GHNeko]

Other characters have more going for them than MK has going for him. He's not the best character in the game. Debatable High Tier imo.

I can't believe anyone still thinks MK is still the best at this point in B+'s lifespan.

@Wave: Wow. Really? Not only is your first statement untruth, but its utterly ridiculous.

 

[ChronicleX]

Ok no changelist, fair enough as I only care about sonic anyway. So I downloaded it and... OMG....

He feels alot better. I cant put my finger on why, I am still messing around but I swear Dair is faster, Side B / Down B are faster or something. Upsmash / Upair seems to connect alot more. I found short hoping now to be extremely quick and alot easier (before sonic would always jump too high) but the main thing I have noticed OMG the main thing....

The Homing attack.

Please tell me I am not seeing things because I swear that it has had a MAJOR overhaul. The Massive lag if you fail it is still there but it seems to home faster, execute faster and actually HOME IN like the name implies!

Am I close? He feels completely different to the Bionic Sonic builds in the Sonic+ topic and the last nightly.

 

[JayFizzy]

i dont really see the point of having some characters be the best and others not be viable at all. If a character isnt at the top, DONT NERF IT. I think that one character should be just as viable as any other.

 

[The Cape]

And the removal of tactics that have been a staple part of a character's metagame for multiple smash games and become part of the sole reason this character is known for is nothing to really take sitting down.

Ok, data time.

No tipper: 9 sstun, +1 shld (Marth's favor) 10 effective shieldstun
Tipper: 10 sstun, -2 shld (Opponent's favor) 8 effective shieldstun

That is Marth's fair on block in the current build.

Relavent frame data:
Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34 (IASA) (Its now frame 39 btw)

Nair
Hit: 6, 15, 17 (behind), 19
End: 48

Up Air
Hit: 6-9
End: 45

Ok, so using this data this is what we can see.

If you manage to tip a fair on sheild during a SHDF its going to hit about frame 5 at the earliest. This gives you 10 frames of sheild stun. So the character that was hit must stay in sheild until frame 15 (if not powersheilded). Marth cannot act until frame 33 and from there another fair will not hit until frame 5 (which as you can see if your earliest aerial). Marth can also rejump to AD which is two frames later.

So, Marth's quickest action from SH Fair > anything else would be to rejump AD. This puts Marth at a position where he is wide open for 20 frames that the opponent can advance on him. That is a dashing grab from any character (including ZELDA). SH Uair out of sheild with a good deal of the cast. Drop sheild to U tilt, etc.

So you can say its a "staple" tactic all you want. And if it is where you play then you and your opponents are complete ****. If Marth wants to pressure with SHDF and that is his "staple tactic" then he must be a ****ing bottom tier character because 20 frames of frame advantage on hit is ridiculously pathetic.

The change was also made due to the effectiveness of full hop double fair which has great coverage on Marth's body due to the swinging angles of the swords. This creates less of a frame hole for Marth that his opponent can abuse him in. 5 frames were added to the IASA for that purpose while keeping combos alive.

So before you go an whine in the NY thread about this, which is completely off topic there. Call me biased against your character, or telling me I am removing staple tactics that no actually talented player (Read: NOT YOU) would ever use. Why dont you go learn your character and stop being a ****ing piece of **** on this forum when you are obviously the moron I continually say you are.

The fact that you are the face of the WBR is sickening and pathetic and speaks a great deal for the lack of anything good out of the WBR. You are welcome that I did the set for you and fixed all the mistake brought about by your obvious lack of knowledge and stupidity.


And for good measure. Next time I am in Texas I will actually drive to your place and not let you ***** out two times to MM you in a Marth ditto in the set of your choice for $100 dollars since you OBVIOUSLY know the character so much better than I do. **** off you stupid worthless piece of ****.

 

[Veril]

Meta really ISN'T that hard. In fact he isn't hard at all. In fact...

...Oh **** it. It's not like anyone else shares this sentiment. I don't even use the guy so nerf him all ya want. One more punching bag I already had. ¦D

wanna bet? MM?

MK is not a punching bag.

I recognize those numbers ;p

 

[FrozenHobo]

The fact that you are the face of the WBR is sickening and pathetic and speaks a great deal for the lack of anything good out of the WBR. You are welcome that I did the set for you and fixed all the mistake brought about by your obvious lack of knowledge and stupidity.

i love you.

no homo

 

[The Cape]

Cape:

Face****s *****es and gets infracted to actually get **** done and make a good Brawl+.

Cape:

He will be banned for your enjoyment of smash.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm not only ****ing talking about SHDF. With the removal of SHDF, Fair > Uair, Nair, and other Fair based tactics are gone and/or hurt as well.

Also, the combo potential from a Fair on HIT is what made the move actually worth using as well.

Hell. The reason why Marth has such a frame disadvantage on Fair was because of the damage nerfs that were given to him over the course of multiple sets, where his advantages were at least respectable enough to give him a good shield pressure game with fair.

The pros of Fair outweighed the cons and you had to make sure your fair actually hit or else you would get punished. Unsafe on block and on dodge, but never unsafe on hit and lead to strings/combos and platform chasing.

It was also a move that would abuse the lack of teching like other moves in the game.

Say what you want, but what he gained from landing a fair and following up properly easily outweighed what was at risk from hitting a shield, which wouldnt be so much of a risk if his Fair did't recieve all those damage nerfs that knocked his shield advantage low enough for him to have such a disadvantage on block.

You speak as if Fair will always be blocked. Hell, the very potential to 0-death someone who DI's improperly simply from chaining Fairs made the move way worth using.

 

[JCaesar]

Oh ****, Cape flying off the handle again!

<insert MJ eating popcorn gif>



Also...

And he's still insane.

Nerf him as much as you want, but as long as he has his combination of speed, range, and jumps the man is practically perfect.
All his flaws are lessened to such a degree because of how easy it is for MK to always remain safe. He applies high pressure, eliminates your options down to very few, and then puts you off stage. All while keeping his own *** out of harms way.

I can guarantee that he is still the best character in the game. The only thing holding him back is the lack of MK players, and maybe more so the lack of playing MK in the most optimal way to insure a win. By that I mean being very patient, and very gay. MK can still air camp just as well in B+ as he could in vBrawl. Dair, Uair, and Fair when all put together are almost perfect. Take away transcendent priority and they probably would be perfect. Projectiles are MK's one true weakness, and even then his multiple jumps and speed allow him to get away from them better than most characters even with no ability to cancel projectiles.

Moral of the story:
MK's character design is far too close to perfect to ever have him not be the best in the game without making him the worse instead.

^ that. MK is still godlike. He still gimps better than anyone, is crazy safe, and has fantastic recovery. It's just his character design.

 

[Bladefist137]

I have a few questions about Yoshi's throws if you don't mind Cape.

What was the reason behind Yoshi's Dthrow angle change?
Dthrow was Yoshi's main throw of setting up air combos but now you can't even land 1 of his air attacks expect maybe Nair but even then you only hit them with the weak hitbox of it.

Dthrow to dacus Usmash however works now with this new angle change against most of the cast and it is even a viable kill option past 110% so it's not that i'm complaining or anything but i just wanted to know why.

Was it intentional to remove the damage buff from Yoshi's Uthrow? Because when i was test playing Yoshi his Uthrow only deals 5% instead of 12%. Altho it still wasn't used much more than before the buff, i thought it was a nice damage racker throw.

Besides all that Yoshi feels pretty much the same as in GSH1 If you want, i could give you a suggestion of what to do with Yoshi's throws but i doubt that you really want to hear x)

Thats all i have to say and i hope this feedback will help you Cape and if there is any other yoshi main playing him in GSH2, please corect anything i have said if any of it is completely bull****:embarrass

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

@Wave: Wow. Really? Not only is your first statement untrue, but its utterly ridiculous.

Fixed that typo for ya. :3

And please, from what you've all displayed ever since Brawl first came out, it's quite true. Maybe not so much the sucking part (I apologize for that remark.) , but the fact remains that you all over exaggerate and complain too much about something so vastly opinionated. Widely accepted opinion a fact does not make.

...Even if the American Government some of us "love" so much often uses and abuses it. XD

But I'll back off from this now, since it doesn't make a bit of difference for us guys.

Edit: Cape won the thread...Again. ¦D

 

[Veril]

Untipped Fair actually has an optimal advantage of 3 on block, which is really good. Tipped can be up to 1, which is uh... still an advantage. That comes from GSH2 data.

"runs away and hides"

Meta really ISN'T that hard. In fact he isn't hard at all. In fact...

...Oh **** it. It's not like anyone else shares this sentiment. I don't even use the guy so nerf him all ya want. One more punching bag I already had. ¦D

wanna bet/get ***** by MK?

If you're down in NY, MM.

 

[Shadic]

If I hadn't seen Cape's Brawl Impression videos from like, three years ago, I'd have trouble thinking of him as anything other than an angry Bowser.
LAWL CAPE!=GIMPY

That said, I'm not sure of why there's such a desire for Marth to SHDFair. Is it just because he could do it in Melee? He has slightly less of a wall now, and it's still a good move.

Also, if anybody could figure out why common5.pac is freezing, that'd be nice.

Edit:

Fix'd.