At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[The Cape]

Yoshi stuffs

D throw was changed due to having an actually pretty substantial advantage as well as being relatively easy to follow up due to the forward angle of the throw. It was changed to setup tech chases (or a smash with bad DI) and actually is great with his long ranged tounge grabs.

As for the U throw, it was changed to 5 damage and given a few speed changes so that it allows Yoshi to combo off of it. The throw has less of an advantage (and doesnt CG FFers) than D throw did and still links to combos with good DI.

The basic idea was to make throw > move more about reading what your opponent is or will be doing, than giving you a relatively easy follow up (and this was done pretty much across the board).

Make sense?

 

[Isatis]

I was actually asking if it actually was the common5.pac making it freeze, but if it is, I may as well remove it from the server temporarily if everyone is having problems with it

 

[GHNeko]

That said, I'm not sure of why there's such a desire for Marth to SHDFair. Is it just because he could do it in Melee? He has slightly less of a wall now, and it's still a good move.

It's not only about SHDF.

 

[Shadic]

I was actually asking if it actually was the common5.pac making it freeze, but if it is, I may as well remove it from the server temporarily if everyone is having problems with it

I haven't actually bothered testing it, honestly. Though it seems reasonable?
I'm too annoyed at everything today for more of those cursed BBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

It's not only about SHDF.

Then what?

 

[Ryose]

Thank you for the Sonic fixes cape. That's all on that.

Samus has gone under the microscope and came up a bounty hunter. One issue and its fairly small. Her bombs explode on impact but if they do and Samus is in the vicinity...she doesn't bomb jump.

D: why?

 

[GHNeko]

Read my post. With the added wind down to fair, fair-based combos were lost or made less effective.

 

[Veril]

OK, so I just went and took a quick look at Marth's fair. Tested on Luigi as he is basically the hardest character to combo in the game.

Marth's fair, when SHFF'd, is awesome. You have ~28 frames of hitstun, and 7 frames of landing lag. To combo into up-tilt you've got like a 14 frame window to land on since it comes out frame 6. That's good for everyone's info.

His aerial "combos" will probably work at higher % on other characters.

This also means SHFF fair to rejump fair works with an only 2 frame tighter window for the initial landing. Just saying...

 

[leafgreen386]

K. Just tried the new set.

Checking the txt file, I see that shieldstun has actually been lowered this time. Anything that does less than 9% now will have more shieldstun, anything that does 9-11% will have exactly the same shieldstun as before, and anything that does 12% or more will have less shieldstun.

Also in the txt file I see hitstun hasn't been fixed yet. I'm fairly sure that hitstun is set to .45 right now. Change the last digit to an "F" (from the "E" it's currently set to) and you should be playing on .46.

From actually playing... Ledgecanceling is amazing. By far my favorite change. Makes platform stages even more interesting for sure.

Most characters feel pretty good. The loss of SHDF on marth is a bit depressing, but it's... manageable. The move is still useful for combos. It's still useful for spacing. It still retains its primary uses.

However, ganon's new dthrow... is interesting. Not sure if interesting is a good thing here. Personally, I thought his old dthrow was fine. Most characters could only be regrabbed once or not at all if your opponent knew how to DI. For what characters did get chaingrabbed, you could've just raised the base and lowered the growth such that it still sends approximately the same at kill percents, which I felt was a very appropriate knockback for the move. Now... it's just a techchase starter that does 6%... which isn't all that impressive. Ganon had guaranteed kill options at certain percents out of a dthrow before, and if the move didn't kill, it would at least get a foe offstage, which made getting grabbed potentially very dangerous. I certainly hope that this wasn't deemed the problem with it, because it's far from broken. Grabbing a good player with ganon isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do, and you still have to read DI after throwing. Now, instead of the opponent taking the heat for getting grabbed, they're given the chance to get away with taking nothing but a measly 6%.

It feels like people have gained an inexplicable bias against guaranteed throw combos, or even guaranteed combos in general. There has never been anything wrong with a character having a guaranteed combo, or even a guaranteed kill combo out of a throw. As long as it doesn't kill ridiculously early, or lead to a disproportionately large amount of guaranteed damage, it's fine for a character to have a throw that combos into something from 0 all the way to kill percents. Having guaranteed combos like these are actually healthy for a game, since they ensure that a player is going to take the heat for screwing up. If they screw up on getting out of the string that will follow your combo, then they'll take even more heat as your string leads into another short combo. And if they screw up and get grabbed at kill percents, well they just lost a stock... too bad for them. They shouldn't have gotten grabbed.

The removal of guaranteed combos practically rewards sloppy play, allowing a player to mess up more times and receive less punishment for it. The extreme lack of any real gimping in brawl+ also makes these guaranteed kill combos look like they're killing at "low" percents, even though the character being killed is already somewhere between 90 and 110%. In melee, living this long was considered a good life. You would expect to die by the time you hit around 100%. And it's not that characters can't kill at these percents in brawl+, either. There are plenty of examples of characters that can kill at 90-110%. But a lot of these moves cannot be combo'd into, and they rely on their opponent leaving themselves vulnerable to get hit by them. This is even more true now, as many guaranteed kill combos have been removed from the game (for example, squirtle's uthrow -> uair, fox's dthrow -> usmash, falcon's dthrow -> knee, ganon's dthrow -> fair, ike's dthrow -> uair, or zelda's uthrow -> uair). These aren't all gone in their entirety, and I'm sure there are more I'm missing, but I think you get the point. I find it amazing dk hasn't lost his cargo uthrow -> uair, actually, given the mentality that seems to surround kill combos from throws. Granted, some of these (such as zelda's uthrow -> uair) could kill as low as 60-70%, which is probably a little too low for a guaranteed kill combo, but that can be remedied without providing a guaranteed option out of the combo... most of the time. I really think that we've been going in the wrong direction with removing these combos. If a character has to be nerfed, there are other ways to nerf them. Guaranteed kill combos from a throw do not break a character on their own.

And because someone will probably yell at me for encouraging "guaranteed combos." What would you rather have? Some guaranteed combos, or an entire game of guaranteed escapes?

 

[Bladefist137]

D throw was changed due to having an actually pretty substantial advantage as well as being relatively easy to follow up due to the forward angle of the throw. It was changed to setup tech chases (or a smash with bad DI) and actually is great with his long ranged tounge grabs.

As for the U throw, it was changed to 5 damage and given a few speed changes so that it allows Yoshi to combo off of it. The throw has less of an advantage (and doesnt CG FFers) than D throw did and still links to combos with good DI.

The basic idea was to make throw > move more about reading what your opponent is or will be doing, than giving you a relatively easy follow up (and this was done pretty much across the board).

Make sense?

Makes alot sense, Thank you for replying so fast Cape

 

[The Cape]

Checking the txt file, I see that shieldstun has actually been lowered this time. Anything that does less than 9% now will have more shieldstun, anything that does 9-11% will have exactly the same shieldstun as before, and anything that does 12% or more will have less shieldstun.

In GSH1 there was also a multiplier change, but you tested one move and assumed it was all higher.

Way 2 Math

 

[Veril]

There's actually a bias towards throw combos...

 

[Plum]

Other characters have more going for them than MK has going for him. He's not the best character in the game. Debatable High Tier imo.

I can't believe anyone still thinks MK is still the best at this point in B+'s lifespan.

@Wave: Wow. Really? Not only is your first statement untruth, but its utterly ridiculous.

I genuinely think that people aren't playing him to his fullest. I would say that in B+'s current metagame he isn't the best, and that position belongs to somebody like Falco currently.

It boils down to the fact that people still hate MK and everything vBrawl related about him.
I've come to realize a sad truth though that if you completely gay the **** out of MK vBrawl style there is still very little any character can do to stop it.

There has been little exploration into his matchups, but from what I see there is still no counter. I don't even see a soft counter, with certain exceptions of certain characters on a specific stage (Falco and Diddy on Final Destination for example). Even if a few characters can soft counter on one or two stages, MK can easily avoid those stages and only have to play on a bad stage once a set, or potentially avoid them altogether depending on how stages are selected at the tourney. Other then those few characters on those few stages he still goes against the rest of the cast in such a way that he is still the best character.

The evolution of B+ has left MK's matchups mostly intact. He certainly has more even matchups, but his design prevents true counters. Characters that can abuse his weaknesses (ie heavy projectile users) also have their own weaknesses that give MK just as much to abuse in the match towards them.

I use two characters:
DDD and G&W.
They cover each other VERY well.
DDD's biggest problem matchups are all advantageous for G&W or at the worst around even.
G&W's biggest problem matchups go even, maybe 6-4 for DDD, but still a big improvement from G&W.

Its saddening that I can still get similar coverage with only MK. Going solo MK does have its clear disadvantages though; G&W and DDD each have matchups that are very clearly in their favor where as MK doesn't find himself hard countering characters in the same way. But look at the advantages. Going only MK I would never have to worry about choosing G&W and walking into Marth or Diddy first matchup for an uphill first match.
It comes down to this:
Do you use more than one character to have each characters strengths and weaknesses to complement each other, or do you use just one that trades countering several characters for not having counters himself?

I can go into the first match of a set as G&W and find myself against Diddy. I'm going uphill on the first matchup and now have to hope my DDD handles Diddy better for the remainder of the set (assuming they don't switch). Now I have to win the next two matchups, one of which is going to be on Diddy's counterpick if I win the second.
Or I can find myself as G&W against Fox for the first match. Great for me, just set up a wall of disjointed priority and gimp him early on. Now I'm in a good position to take the set. It goes either way.

The other option is to just go MK and not have those worries. I'm basically guaranteed a 6-4 or 5-5 matchup. I don't have to worry about what the other player picks in that situation nearly as much.

Can any other character in the game claim anything close to that? The closest I can think of is Wario, who still has one or two 4-6 matchups. All the other top tier characters have their problem matchups.

Every once in a while at some local Smashfests we'll see a vBrawl MK player hop in the B+ to give it a try and they play MK as though it were still vBrawl. Patiently applying pressure, and waiting as long as it takes for you to create an opening. MK never has to create his own openings like other characters. He forces you to make it for him. When I see somebody who actually plays B+ go MK they play him in a very different way. They play MK like they would play other B+ characters. They apply offensive pressure and try to find their own opening to start a combo. It never works out as effectively as using MK in a vBrawl style. Its my own experience that tells me everyone here must be playing MK wrong if they don't see he's the best. Next Smashfest I'll try to get some replays of some of the local MK players and how they gay the hell out of him just almost as effectively as they could in vBrawl.

EDIT:
This thread moved quickly in the time it took me to type all of this out :V Meh...

 

[Veril]

Plum, I seriously think you overestimate the effectiveness of MK's gayness given how much better approach options are in general with increased character mobility, the greater reward from each hit when playing more aggressive, etc.

MK can't just space aerials defensively all match and get the win + he's got such great offensive options anyway.

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

The fundamental thing about MK is that his slashes are super-fast and have good reach. That's a winning combination no matter how you slice it. Yes, you can make him easily killed, you can make his kill moves not kill as easily, you can nerf tornado, you can try to make his pressure worse... But at the end of the day, he still has moves like Dsmash, which are insanely fast and have a chunk of reach and can even KO. Balancing MK in the way he's being balanced creates a weird character with very potent strengths and very strong weaknesses. But toning down his sword moves' ridiculous speed would bring him a lot more in line with the other characters.

Disclaimer: I'm not a pro or anything; I don't claim to be better at the game than any of you. I'm just spouting my thoughts.

 

[ChronicleX]

Another new sweet thing I just noticed. Sonic now has a Tripping sweetspot on Dtilt. Woop!

 

[Veril]

We did tone down the speed of some of his moves (notably d-tilt), reduced the range on some (fair), made all sword hits have more hitlag, and as you said, nerfed the s*** out of him in a number of ways.

I'm so tired of MK getting nerfed, I understand the nair change, but it stings. I won't support any new MK nerfs after this, I will be completely honest about that.

Anyway, I'm getting tired, if someone could compile a list of "facts" people use in here, and pm me them in the morning, I'll be able to confirm/deny stuff. Cape got a bunch of that data from me, so that already was tested.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I finally stopped being stubborn and decided to give this set a try...Not to sound over the top, but I think it's PERFECT. XD

Everyone I tried playing as felt great. Especially my mains Sonic, Ike and Captain Falcon (Hurray! He's not crappy anymore like in GSH1!) I noticed air mobility is a bit slower than before, and everyone feels slightly heavier. For whatever reason, I'm loving this. o.o Also the game finally feels fast again. In GSH1, I duno what happened, but everything felt so slow that I couldn't bring myself to play it. vBrawl felt faster. No seriously, I played it just to compare the two. XD

I'd love it if this ended up being the finalized Brawl+ or something. I can't say I have any problems with it...

...Aside from the fact that Throw Modifier is back to **** Blue Falcon again. Is the Throw Modifier really THAT important this time? I just wanna know so I can decide whether to keep it on or not. -.o'

 

[Plum]

Plum, I seriously think you overestimate the effectiveness of MK's gayness given how much better approach options are in general with increased character mobility, the greater reward from each hit when playing more aggressive, etc.

There's CLEAR rewards to playing an aggressive MK, and I probably could reword a lot of what I said to show that I'm not denying that. MK has many effective combos and a great pressure game when he is playing aggressive. Let's get that out of the way. MK can be successfully played highly aggressively, and when played as such he is still a very good character.

What I'm saying is that MK would be more rewarding with a different mindset.
When you go on the aggressive you are going to create openings that wouldn't be there if you took a different route. What I'm saying is that if an aggressive MK can get a silver medal, a patient/gay MK can get the gold. Both are clearly rewarding playstyles but one is just going to be better for the play to win mentality.

Look at defensive characters for example:
If you go at Snake, Zelda, Olimar or other defensive powerhouses aggressively you open yourself up in ways that a patient style would never do so. Those characters force you to play patiently and smart. Doing otherwise is just going to be limiting your own success.

The vBrawl MK vs Snake matchup could largely vary depending on how MK approached it. An aggressive MK is going to be shut down time and time again by Snake because he is such an effective responsive character. When you are the one making choices you give your opponent the opportunity to react accordingly. However when MK takes his time in the matchup you stop seeing the same situations. If you use MK's options to remain virtually safe while still applying pressure eventually you are given an opening. Other characters can't apply pressure without creating openings in the way MK can.

Even MK is going to leave himself open, if only for a few frames, when he goes on the offensive. Playing patiently, leaving yourself very flexible regardless of the situation, and abusing all his options to safely pressure (basically everything that adds up to the gay I'm talking about) is either going to leave MK nonpunishable or vulnerable for a few less frames. Those few less frames will make the difference in the long run.

Aggro MK is going to create fast rewards, fast gimps, and intense high action gameplay. That's exactly what we love, and its why MK is going to be played this way. While certainly more interesting to play against and watch, its going to create a few more risks that can cost a match.

Patient/gay MK is going to create slow, smaller rewards that snowball until the match is his. It may take 6 or 7 minutes to take care of business but he's going to do it more reliably. I've been seeing it happen lately from experience against both styles of play.

 

[CT Chia]

Reading through this I'm seeing that theres like 2000000 changes in this build, and seriously, there isn't a ****ing change list.

why the **** is there not a changelist.

WHY is there not a changelist.

IM IN THE WBR AND I DONT EVEN KNOW OF ALL THE CHANGES

and what is this marth change business. why was it changed. i want answers

 

[MK26]

theyre pretending to be all cryptic and ****, but it boils down to the fact that they dont have a finished list yet

 

[Thunderhorse+]

theyre pretending to be all cryptic and ****, but it boils down to the fact that they dont have a finished list yet

[02:04] thecape77: But its really pathetic that people like Chibo cant even play the set without one
[02:04] thecape77: And they are in the WBR >.>
[02:04] thecape77: Good players can adapt to the changes in about 10 mins of practice
[02:04] thecape77: **** players need to be told how to play

10changelists

 

[CT Chia]

THis is from a thread I just made in the WBR, and I'm going to paste it here for everyone to read my thoughts on it and see if I can get some public backing on this. I'm not leaking stuff out from the WBR, since this is all stuff that I originally posted and I'm choosing to post it here as well.

"From reading around it seems that not only is there not a public changelist for GSH2, but there isnt a changelist at all. Cape didn't keep a changelist when he took over of all this and changed a whole bunch of stuff.

The change from RC1 to GSH2 is pretty drastic from what it seems. There are so many changes that really didn't need to be addressed. The changes to Marth's SHDstuff seems to be a BIG concern amongst the public.

Here is what I suggest we do.

Go back to RC1. Finish the final changelist on that, we should have all of the info on that to make one.
Think about GSH2 and every single good change in it. Maybe things like the slight changes to the hitstun and stuff if needed, idk whats been done with airdodges and tumble anymore (as long as it's not NADT im fine lol), and take that and put it into RC1. Take note in the changelist.
If there is seriously no course for concern about something to be changed - then don't change it. Ness is a problem in RC1, lets take the Ness stuff from GSH2 then. I heard the explaination for why Falco's shine was changed, makes sense - throw that in there. Marth's change - makes no sense at all, don't include it.

What we will have in the end is the base build of RC1 that everyone was familiar with for months, the build that many people grew to like most of, the added good parts of GSH2, and most importantly - a solid changelist that people can reference.

Release this as a test build for like a week or two so people can unearth any game breaking problems if there is anything we accidentally overlooked. Make any modifications (there might not even need to be any changes), then release this as RC2.

This new RC2 should be around for a while like RC1, it can be focused a lot on at tourneys like Pound 4 (and potentially BtL3), and who knows, maybe it can become the first Final Release kind of thing."

 

[CT Chia]

[02:04] thecape77: But its really pathetic that people like Chibo cant even play the set without one
[02:04] thecape77: And they are in the WBR >.>
[02:04] thecape77: Good players can adapt to the changes in about 10 mins of practice
[02:04] thecape77: **** players need to be told how to play

10changelists

WOW really?

This isn't vBrawl. This isn't a game that is released that won't be changed again for ever where we have time to learn it. This is a modified game changing something that is already in place. This is a test set. Brawl+ constantly changes, do you really expect every single person to discover every little tidbit about every single character in the game? No.

Am I going to notice right away something like, oh man they changed this value from 103.482 to 102.334 THATS WHY IT FELT DIFFERENT

We expect people to debate intelligently, but without something like a changelist information can be doubted and no one knows exactly what is going on.

Also, its not JUST that (though thats the biggest issue here imo) but there are changes happening that make no f'ing sense.


ANd if there is a changelist in the WBR, please link me to it by all means. I can't find it. Last time I checked there was someone in the WBR saying (not naming ppl) that you (Cape) didn't keep a changelist for everything when you made your crap load of changes and isntead just happened to remember (a good number of things, aka NOT ALL things) in a recent chat.

 

[FrozenHobo]

now, i may be way off here, but shouldn't we be grateful that he even made all of these changes? so what if he didn't keep a list? we can play the characters we use and see the differences. yes, a change list is good as a road map, but we shouldn't bite cape's head off just because he didn't keep one on hand as he was making his updates.

for character differences, just look at the pacs in PSA. for code changes, use the gct converter to see what makes it up. it doesn't seem fair to just throw everything on one person just because he didn't write down every little change.

 

[MK26]

FroHo, that doesnt mean we should throw organization out the window...

 

[Swordplay]

Am I going to notice right away something like, oh man they changed this value from 103.482 to 102.334 THATS WHY IT FELT DIFFERENT.

No, and I think thats his point. Tiny things like these arn't really worth discussing are they? Do they really have such an impact on the game?

You WILL notice major changes by actually playing the game and those are the changes that need to be actively discussed, not small changes that will hardly effect the game.

Cape wants you to play the game and feel the game, debate how it feels and major changes, rather than debating small changes that have little impact on the game or making inferences from a change list over observations from gameplay.

I think this is his logic (I hope it is) and if it is I support it

 

[The Cape]

Viet is working on the transfer to PAL and actually got the entire changelist out of me from memory. I dont remember exact values since values dont transfer to gameplay as is, but he has a good idea where to look to convert it.

Besides, how is knowing that the fourth hit of Snake dair is now 50 KBG instead of 100 KBG is a buff or a nerf without trying it? The changelist only does so much and the fact that players like Chu can just pick the game up and win tournies without one is proof enough that its a crutch and actual gameplay leads to success, not knowing a stupid changelist.

Secondly I personally feel this should be the final build, as does most of the tourney players I have spoken to and have played it feel the same way. Minor glitches aside (Ivy dair being left out on accident for example) its a solid set.

Also, instead of coming in here and demanding a changelist (which doesnt explain the reasoning behind the changes anyway) or just saying **** like "I'm in the WBR and I dont understand this change" when its explained in detail a few posts behind is also really stupid. Why should I have to explain everything twice because you are so special that you dont have to read the posts from before?


Edit:

Also remember. The WBR released this set. So take up your issues with them for a lack of changelist and not me.

Edit2:
have you SEEN the RC1 changelist by the way? In some areas it repeats itself, in some its redundant, and in some it doesnt even list changes. At least when this changelist gets released it will be accurate.

 

[CT Chia]

i read the stuff, i didnt see where it was explained in detail. all i know is that the public is deserving of a chngelist, and there isnt one. the wbr wants this game to be accessible to everyone, but if were not even gonna tell em whats different..... uhhh....

also, for my comment on not knowing about 103.2242 being changed to 102.243243 if its that small of a change that is insignificant, why was it even done in the first place?

also, going back to capes comment about viet getting the entire changelist from you, why did he say this:
"NOTE 2: Since Cape himself has not kept a changelist (we chatted and he just remembered [a good number] of things off his head) as well as the inconsistencies of the B+ Website Changelist, I CANNOT guarantee complete accuracy!"

you would want this to be the final, u practically made it urself
the public here in the thread seems to be in disagreement with some of the changes

 

[Swordplay]

Small changes like that are usually done for a specific matchup or to fix something like a multi hit move (say links bair or snakes nair) wasn't connecting ideally even though it was usually connecting just fine. sometimes its to make the character feel better which may not have an impact on gameplay but it certainly raises the fun level.

They have a purpose but i don't think there worth immediate discussion in comparison to more significant changes the entirety of the work that is gsh2 they can be brought up later as a changelist is created.

don't you think getting gsh2 out soon is more important than delaying it so a changelist can come out at with it? if you don't then we don't see eye to eye

THE PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY

 

[The Cape]

Of course they disagree. Anyone who gets their character would disagree. All changes were made from actual gameplay and done for a purpose. I dont just do **** at random.

I can explain the changes and why they were made (and just for you this one time, I will link WHY the Marth fair changes were made).

Also, the WBR did not have to accept this set and its good enough that I can put my name on it and be proud of it. When RC1 was released I was embarassed to go to tournaments or smashfests because I had to explain the sheer **** that we were playing.

Explaining Marth fair change:

The change was also made due to the effectiveness of full hop double fair which has great coverage on Marth's body due to the swinging angles of the swords. This creates less of a frame hole for Marth that his opponent can abuse him in. 5 frames were added to the IASA for that purpose while keeping combos alive.

 

[Shadic]

Faulty Common5.pac confirmed.

Crashed with it, works fine without it. Can we get a working one put in now?

 

[Veril]

. All changes were made from actual gameplay + the tireless efforts of a gorgeous number crunching blond boy with a necrotic jigglypuff.

The truth comes out.

"cough"

 

[The Cape]

The truth comes out.

"cough"

Go back to your cage my little slave.

MWAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

 

[Thunderhorse+]

stuff

You mention that RC1 was beloved, or at least well respected. RC1 was a joke. A farce. A grand failing that the WBR won't live down like Ness mains will never live down the abomination that was RC1 Ness. It was a giant PR disaster, from the increasing delays to the rushed release to the set itself, some of the changes make me wonder if anyone playtested some of those changes at all (Wolf nair). And the WBR is aware of it (at least the WBR members that I've spoken to). Why would anyone want to go back to that?

The build isn't perfect, but it is a gigantic step in the right direction. It strikes me that I've never seen a tourney player post here so far with the exception of Guru, who only posted to let us know he was trying the set. The fact of the matter is, this thread is, well for lack of a better term, a courtesy. All of the tournament players (the people who's, as much as the project appreciates casual feedback as well, feedback is really needed and desired due to their ability to play the game at an extremely high level. It is a competitive game after all) have already given their feedback:

This set wasn't 'built' by Cape, it was built by the tournament community and the tournament players that liked where he was going with some of his ideas and pitched their aid. I know for a fact that I contributed to all the Falco changes in this build (even though the shine didn't turn out as expected, but we're getting on that), Guru did the same with Squirtle (even though his fair change didn't turn out as expected, but we fixed that!), G-reg did the same with Captain Falcon ect.

So when you say

you would want this to be the final, u practically made it urself

is a laughable statement if you know how much effort the tournament goers put in to make it what it is.

We practically have almost all the feedback we need. That's how the set was made.

 

[Isatis]

Faulty Common5.pac confirmed.

Crashed with it, works fine without it. Can we get a working one put in now?

OK, removed the common5 from the server. Odd since I use the same common5 and it doesn't freeze for me, though.

 

[CT Chia]

i read that reason of a change, but why investigate it in the first place? when was it ever a broken tactic? when did ppl ever complain about it even? and by changing the effects of a full hop double fair, you messed up his short hop fair to stuff options.

 

[The Cape]

We also explained the SH fair to stuff as well. Veril has some pretty on hit data and I have some great on sheild data. Shfair > second aerial is completely unsafe and SHFF fair is a better option in every scenario.

As for the full hop double fair, its mostly what Vex did to get third at BtL2 and after discussing it with him at the event, he agreed the move was overpowered. Most of the people I have spoken to about Marth since (that are respectable players) think it was a change for the better.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...Aside from the fact that Throw Modifier is back to **** Blue Falcon again. Is the Throw Modifier really THAT important this time? I just wanna know so I can decide whether to keep it on or not. -.o'

Hey, can I get an answer to this? I just spend an hour or two watching people yell at each other in a thread about Sakurai hoping I'd at least get a quick yes or no. XD

 

[Shadic]

OK, removed the common5 from the server. Odd since I use the same common5 and it doesn't freeze for me, though.

It doesn't seem to be the same one as the one from GSH1, though. Pack that one in instead?

 

[Veril]

Go back to your cage my little slave.

MWAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

Cape just keeps breaking my heart. "returns to cage"

Anyway, I'll be working on getting a somewhat complete frame data list for this sexy set in addition to several other projects. I know some of you are capable of helping...