At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[The Cape]

Hey, can I get an answer to this? I just spend an hour or two watching people yell at each other in a thread about Sakurai hoping I'd at least get a quick yes or no. XD

Sorry, missed this.

ICers D throw was changed with the throw modifier because they cant be changed with their .pac file. Thats why its neccesary.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so i can be sure, blizzard no longer vacuums, right? it now actually acts like wind and pushes out if my playtesting proves to be what was intended.

 

[matt4300]

Man I know its a small change but who ever it was that saw links fsmash hasnt been linking at low percents for quite a few builds now, and decided to fix it... I thank you.... Its been in the back of my head for months, but compared to other things it seemed trivial. Thank you.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Sorry, missed this.

ICers D throw was changed with the throw modifier because they cant be changed with their .pac file. Thats why its neccesary.

Ooo... o.o

...Which means I don't need it since the Ice Climbers suck anyways. XD Thanks. :3

 

[Shadic]

Man I know its a small change but who ever it was that saw links fsmash hasnt been linking at low percents for quite a few builds now, and decided to fix it... I thank you.... Its been in the back of my head for months, but compared to other things it seemed trivial. Thank you.

Also, I swear Link's Dair got a buff.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Ooo... o.o

...Which means I don't need it since the Ice Climbers suck anyways. XD Thanks. :3

oh hell nah, *****.

santa commin' to stuff your stocking full of LEAD!

 

[Shadic]

That's because the link gets censored. Upload it somewhere else with a different name.

Also, can Ganondorf get a speedup on the dead frames at the end of his whiffed Aerial Choke? Because if you hit a ledge with it, you're going to be out of ledge-grab range before it ends. You CAN sweet-spot it.. Well, kinda. If you're the perfect distance away. Or if you recover high, but it just seems lame and feels.. Unpolished?

 

[matt4300]

Also, I swear Link's Dair got a buff.

Yep, just checked... Mario FD no DI

Old: Sweet-88 Sour- 107

New: Sweet- 77 Sour- 93

L..O..L 77? and this is from the ground. So sweet...

Fsmash second hit is also more powerfull.

Old Sweet: 100 Sour-126 New Sweet: 88 Sour- 113

 

[RandomLax]

It wasn't actually packed with a faulty one, or else my own Brawl would freeze as well, I was just wondering if that was the cause of why you were having issues loading it... =O

This worked thanks bionic sonic

 

[BadGuy]

Hey cape, loving the changes so far...the ones I've discovered at least. Sonic doesn't feel that much different to me, Bowser's got a nerf on damage for his up throw but is back to free kill status.

I don't understand the big deal about lack of a change list, if you have a main, just test em out, see what's different and you'll learn the difference in a couple minutes...it's not hard. Well, I guess it would be hard for the people who change mains every 2 weeks, har har har. Every character got a lot of depth and secrets to discover, just stick the character and there are plenty of new techniques to use with supposed shallow characters.

The only character I'm skeptical about is samus. You stress having that projectile game around so much, so here's my idea for her. Power up her close range game and lower her defense.

People always complain about samus having bad close range attacks, so this is my solution. She can have both, but have lower defense in compensation, I'm thinking...average. So if someone can successfully make it through her barrage of attacks, she should feel the pain. Not only will this increase the pace of the match, it makes it a bit less ridiculous, seeing how she can kill now and be killed.
The only heavy projectile user in the game should be King ddd, and he's a huge target for compensation.

 

[matt4300]

Hey cape, loving the changes so far...the ones I've discovered at least. Sonic doesn't feel that much different to me, Bowser's got a nerf on damage for his up throw but is back to free kill status.

I don't understand the big deal about lack of a change list, if you have a main, just test em out, see what's different and you'll learn the difference in a couple minutes...it's not hard. Well, I guess it would be hard for the people who change mains every 2 weeks, har har har. Every character got a lot of depth and secrets to discover, just stick the character and there are plenty of new techniques to use with supposed shallow characters.

The only character I'm skeptical about is samus. You stress having that projectile game around so much, so here's my idea for her. Power up her close range game and lower her defense.

People always complain about samus having bad close range attacks, so this is my solution. She can have both, but have lower defense in compensation, I'm thinking...average. So if someone can successfully make it through her barrage of attacks, she should feel the pain. Not only will this increase the pace of the match, it makes it a bit less ridiculous, seeing how she can kill now and be killed.
The only heavy projectile user in the game should be King ddd, and he's a huge target for compensation.

Seriously man, have you played samus recently... Shes amazing. You just have to be tactical with her.

And just an FYI her utilt is faster now... Just saying.

And Bower had all his throws nerfed. Dthrow from 16 to 14% Fthrow 12 to 10% Uthrow 9? to 6 (and its not guaranteed for the last **** time.) Bthrow is trash for killing now aswell.

 

[BadGuy]

I fought samus recently, like...12 times, each match lasted 6-7 minutes long and i only won 5 of the set. There needs to be some change.

 

[Glick]

About easy throw--->kill combos.

The see your point leaf. But I disagree heavily.
Grabs in brawl are significantly more powerful then attacks. For a few main reasons.
-Super Armor (You can grab attacks)
-Can grab peoples shields
-Can running grab and pivot grab(some characters better then others)
-You can sheild grab

These are really strong offensive weapons. (Though sheild grabbing and pivot grabbing is heavily defensive). They are hard to punish, they aren't hard to pull off, and they change EVERYTHING.

In smash, unlike other fighting games, there is no tech grabs. Meaning you can't tech someones grab when they are trying to grab you and it makes grabs an obscene and unfair offensive tool.

The fact that you can grab somebody and effortlessly kill them at whatever percent is scrub friendly. Grabs should lead to tech chases at best. but all throws to kills are honestly unfair(some exceptions on a character to character basis). Tech chase setups to moves-->death are completely fair.


As for what other people are saying... Please... I really don't want to condone capes flaming, but he's right about certain things. A lot of you guys are complaining about stuff you don't even understand(not talking about a single person, or this thread in specific even).

EDIT:

The only heavy projectile user in the game should be King ddd, and he's a huge target for compensation.

...

I fought samus recently, like...12 times, each match lasted 6-7 minutes long and i only won 5 of the set. There needs to be some change.

...

 

[Chepe]

Sorry to bug, but I never got an answer to the issue I raised before.

Yoshi's current Side B's property of refreshing his second jump can be used to climb or stall against a vertical wall forever by repeating the process of crashing into it and jumping right after. This is most apparent in Warioware and SSE Jungle. Was this intentional?

If this wasn't intentional, I still wouldn't want Yoshi to go into helpless state out of Side B, so is there a way that it can be changed so that coming out of Side B will only leave him with his second jump if he hadn't used it yet or touched the ground before rolling off stage?

 

[BadGuy]

...

yeah that gives me a lot information to take in. Got anything else to "say"?

Well if you don't like the Power up idea and defense nerf, how about this instead:
Samus' combo game is a bit too easy to access, I propose that some slight landing lag be implemented into her aerials. Samus is a heavy armored suit'd chick, and she moves that fast in between each attack, and they're weak? Doesn't make sense, slow down the pace of her attacks, and power up her close game.

 

[Glick]

...

yeah that gives me a lot information to take in. Got anything else to "say"?

Well if you don't like the Power up idea and defense nerf, how about this instead:
Samus' combo game is a bit too easy to access, I propose that some slight landing lag be implemented into her aerials. Samus is a heavy armored suit'd chick, and she moves that fast in between each attack, and they're weak? Doesn't make sense, slow down the pace of her attacks, and power up her close game.

... pretty much means "uh no"

The truth is, samus is fine the way she is.
She can't kill as easily as a normal character but she can kill as early as a normal character. What I mean is, she has to work harder for her kills(though some of her moves DO kill early, for example her charge shot) and less hard for her damage. It's balanced system, and it's fine the way it is.

As for speed of moves, she is really floaty in the air. The speed of her moves is what makes up for it.

 

[zaf]

Ganon Stuff

I have no problem with what you said, about characters having combo's out of grabs, with or without DI. But giving that to which characters is the real discussion.

Ganon's moves all hurt, a lot of them are kill moves. He is even strong enough to kill most of the cast at earlier percents then other characters. His move-set is like snakes, a lot of the moves kill.

Now giving Ganon a grab that leads to a hit, is basically guaranteeing a kill. Is it really necessary to give a character with so many kill move options a definite kill method rather then just landing a move ( fair/dair/any smash move/ bair etc etc etc ) ?

This promotes campy play no? "Smart" players will rack up damage, shield camp and wait for a grab, then kill, rinse and repeat. Rather then out smarting and outplaying the opponent, even punishing a missed move. This easy mode **** is what we are trying to avoid am i right?

i read the stuff, i didnt see where it was explained in detail. all i know is that the public is deserving of a chngelist, and there isnt one. the wbr wants this game to be accessible to everyone, but if were not even gonna tell em whats different..... uhhh....

also, for my comment on not knowing about 103.2242 being changed to 102.243243 if its that small of a change that is insignificant, why was it even done in the first place?

also, going back to capes comment about viet getting the entire changelist from you, why did he say this:
"NOTE 2: Since Cape himself has not kept a changelist (we chatted and he just remembered [a good number] of things off his head) as well as the inconsistencies of the B+ Website Changelist, I CANNOT guarantee complete accuracy!"

you would want this to be the final, u practically made it urself
the public here in the thread seems to be in disagreement with some of the changes

Ok so if we set aside things like, 103.2242 being changed to 102.243243 we are left with the changes to the move set characteristics such as : this move has iasa frames, this move has a new property such as tripping, etc ).

You just want to see all the changes and then decide right away if it is good or bad without even trying the move first. If you deem it bad, you post right away complaining. But did you ever go try the game first, see why the change was made..... well i dont know look at ganon, his grab was changed to prevent insta combo, but now relies on tech chasing. Whats so bad about that, im sure if you read that his grab was changed and no longer allows him to hit right away you would **** bricks cuz its not easy mode enough

 

[ZacTASTIC]

****, Cape... I feel bad that so many people are mad at you even though you pretty much MADE this...

However, I think a changelist is a good idea, as I don't spend enough time (or even have the time) playing all the characters to see the differences in them, especially with changing Brawl+.

BTW, you can verbally **** people pretty hard when you want. Albeit unnecessarily, but it's impressive.

Thank you for the awesome set. I'm loving it so far, but would appreciate a changelist. Pretty please? I won't ***** about it, I swear. =D

 

[The_Guide]

Faulty Common5.pac confirmed.

Crashed with it, works fine without it. Can we get a working one put in now?

I deleted mine, still getting freezes.

 

[Alphatron]

Played with Ness yesterday. He's still awesome. PK Fire is still complete crap(had no humans to play with so please correct me if wrong) and cpus can usually escape followups...which is what the move is supposed to do.

The dthrow still annoys me since I'm in the habit of treating ground Ness as one who sets up for aerial chases. The tech chase is good, but it really turns me off as its not his style. Even Lucas has a better dthrow for air chase.
Current PK Fire is unacceptable tho. Kirby dthrow btw?

 

[shanus]

Here is the truth: Cape didn't make a changelist while making the set. While this was a terrible idea, and ****show organization, the execution and quality across the set isnt detracted by this. While he doesn't believe in changelists, the appropriate solution should have been to have compiled a changelist, and released it say, 1 week post release, as to allow people to time to judge without a list in their head. If future changes had to be made, or we wanted to revert a change or had to rebuild an entire pac from scratch, this current system would largely impede such progress.

However, to all you haters: you still enjoy the set. While organization was lacking, Cape still did a bang up job on the product and you should praise him for that and largely isolate the problems with the set (aka the backwards logic for fox's lasers which I already isolated a fix for) rather than complain. Constructive criticism is the key while waiting for VietGeek to compile the changelist.

 

[Alphatron]

Sorry, missed this.

ICers D throw was changed with the throw modifier because they cant be changed with their .pac file. Thats why its neccesary.

DP thanks to psp limit. Nana can be hex edited thru the pac if someone can find the offset for her throw. Would also allow other + changes to affect her that don't already.

*buries Kirby's dthrow*

Hit Zelda with this at 24%. No followups. Zelda herself is incredibly sexy though. Usmash.

Edit: WTB Ness feedback.

 

[JCaesar]

THis is from a thread I just made in the WBR, and I'm going to paste it here for everyone to read my thoughts on it and see if I can get some public backing on this. I'm not leaking stuff out from the WBR, since this is all stuff that I originally posted and I'm choosing to post it here as well.

"From reading around it seems that not only is there not a public changelist for GSH2, but there isnt a changelist at all. Cape didn't keep a changelist when he took over of all this and changed a whole bunch of stuff.

The change from RC1 to GSH2 is pretty drastic from what it seems. There are so many changes that really didn't need to be addressed. The changes to Marth's SHDstuff seems to be a BIG concern amongst the public.

Here is what I suggest we do.

Go back to RC1. Finish the final changelist on that, we should have all of the info on that to make one.
Think about GSH2 and every single good change in it. Maybe things like the slight changes to the hitstun and stuff if needed, idk whats been done with airdodges and tumble anymore (as long as it's not NADT im fine lol), and take that and put it into RC1. Take note in the changelist.
If there is seriously no course for concern about something to be changed - then don't change it. Ness is a problem in RC1, lets take the Ness stuff from GSH2 then. I heard the explaination for why Falco's shine was changed, makes sense - throw that in there. Marth's change - makes no sense at all, don't include it.

What we will have in the end is the base build of RC1 that everyone was familiar with for months, the build that many people grew to like most of, the added good parts of GSH2, and most importantly - a solid changelist that people can reference.

Release this as a test build for like a week or two so people can unearth any game breaking problems if there is anything we accidentally overlooked. Make any modifications (there might not even need to be any changes), then release this as RC2.

This new RC2 should be around for a while like RC1, it can be focused a lot on at tourneys like Pound 4 (and potentially BtL3), and who knows, maybe it can become the first Final Release kind of thing."

And on that note, I'll be joining Cape and Veril in abandoning the sinking ship that is the WBR. Too much dead weight. Yeroc and/or Shanus, if you ever get the WBR cleaned up and back on the right track, I'd be happy to return.

btw, Pound 4 will be using GSH2 (well, a slightly more polished up version).

 

[proteininja]

Here is the truth: Cape didn't make a changelist while making the set. While this was a terrible idea, and ****show organization, the execution and quality across the set isnt detracted by this. While he doesn't believe in changelists, the appropriate solution should have been to have compiled a changelist, and released it say, 1 week post release, as to allow people to time to judge without a list in their head. If future changes had to be made, or we wanted to revert a change or had to rebuild an entire pac from scratch, this current system would largely impede such progress.

However, to all you haters: you still enjoy the set. While organization was lacking, Cape still did a bang up job on the product and you should praise him for that and largely isolate the problems with the set (aka the backwards logic for fox's lasers which I already isolated a fix for) rather than complain. Constructive criticism is the key while waiting for VietGeek to compile the changelist.

I just want to say to all of you. I told you so, but it was fun watching you all trying to cover it up with arguments of "people will whine". I think much more whining arose from not having a list. lol. irony!

Anyway, what is the goal for Bowser in your eyes cape?

I've found that sometimes you guys make changes to characters that encourage certain play styles, so what in your mind is the most valid strategy for Bowser over the course of a stock. From approach to his first hit to punishing and finally getting a kill?

 

[Alphatron]

Speaking of Bowser, I hope no one's forgotten about his crawl/crouch SA. <3

D3 fsmash being left in is also cool.

Despite the how unprofessional you guys have been at times, I'll give thanks for the set as well. You all deserve it. Now quit the bashing. Save it for gamefaqs.

Btw, not having a changelist for a community project like this is undebatedly stupid. I read the reasons for it, and I'm okay with seeing things myself, but don't try to cover this up unless a list will eventually show its face.

 

[Veril]

And on that note, I'll be joining Cape and Veril in abandoning the sinking ship that is the WBR. Too much dead weight. Yeroc and/or Shanus, if you ever get the WBR cleaned up and back on the right track, I'd be happy to return.

This^

And Ganon does have true throw combos. People, please stop saying he doesn't when that is f***ing dead wrong. The lack of a changelist is great, it shows how able to jump to faulty conclusions people still are. At least now I don't cringe at the s***** theory-crafting I'd have to endure if he posted one.

 

[ValTroX]

And on that note, I'll be joining Cape and Veril in abandoning the sinking ship that is the WBR. Too much dead weight. Yeroc and/or Shanus, if you ever get the WBR cleaned up and back on the right track, I'd be happy to return.

btw, Pound 4 will be using GSH2 (well, a slightly more polished up version).

hmm that means we get an update with some fixes soon?<3

 

[proteininja]

And on that note, I'll be joining Cape and Veril in abandoning the sinking ship that is the WBR. Too much dead weight. Yeroc and/or Shanus, if you ever get the WBR cleaned up and back on the right track, I'd be happy to return.

btw, Pound 4 will be using GSH2 (well, a slightly more polished up version).

Wouldn't it be funny if you all abandoned ship together, and formed a group of people dedicated to improving and creating brawl+. You wouldn't want just anyone to know what you were doing though so you would have to meet somewhere secret. Somewhere like behind something a wall, or a...a...table, or a... I KNOW a ROOM! Man, that would be great.

Good times...

 

[Alphatron]

Obviously, people should niether jump to conclusions nor theory craft before testing changes(I did this for Ness vB a while back).

There will be stupidity either way. If a new set is released, placebo will ALWAYS take effect because people will expect and assume that things have changed.

 

[The Cape]

For the changelist deal.

I made all of my changes upon my own and the experience of gameplay from my beta testers, then tested the changes again and again to make sure they were perfect. It was not feasible to keep a change list.

Shanus can say that it was ****ty planning to not keep a changelist, but the RC1 changelist is entirely unuseable (due to inconsistancies, repeats, and somethings just being flat out wrong). With this, how can I make an accurate change list without the correct basis?

My goal IS to have a change list that is complete from vBrawl to current and correct. That will take some time to get right (as did the set). So what do people want, a ****ty incorrect changelist or a correct one with every change currently from vBrawl?

I would take the second one personally.

Edit:
I have read every post in this thread and I just have to say that less than half of what people perceive to have changed has changed. Just shows that when you think something good was changed, it might have always been there to begin with and you decided not to look for it because the changelist told you it was "nerfed"

 

[Roxas215]

For the changelist deal.

I made all of my changes upon my own and the experience of gameplay from my beta testers, then tested the changes again and again to make sure they were perfect. It was not feasible to keep a change list.

Shanus can say that it was ****ty planning to not keep a changelist, but the RC1 changelist is entirely unuseable (due to inconsistancies, repeats, and somethings just being flat out wrong). With this, how can I make an accurate change list without the correct basis?

My goal IS to have a change list that is complete from vBrawl to current and correct. That will take some time to get right (as did the set). So what do people want, a ****ty incorrect changelist or a correct one with every change currently from vBrawl?

I would take the second one personally.

Edit:
I have read every post in this thread and I just have to say that less than half of what people perceive to have changed has changed. Just shows that when you think something good was changed, it might have always been there to begin with and you decided not to look for it because the changelist told you it was "nerfed"

i cosign!!!!

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Played some more. Overall I like the set. I'd have to agree with Cape when he says this set could easily qualify for a final build. Of course, I'd still like to see a lot of miscellaneous stuff, Implementation of an extended SSS so we wouldn't have to replace temple, some more graphical changes in menus to tighten the project up and make it more professional looking. But as far as balance goes, thumbs up.

One thing I will say, I have no idea if anything has been done to Lucario, or if I'm just having a bit of a problem adapting to the new marth but HOLY HELL did I get destroyed yesterday. My friend picked up lucario, started basically dodging, projectile spamming, and forward smashing and for some reason I seemed to be unable to break the pattern, which is weird becuase I had an easy time doing so earlier. I think I'm just not used to new marth pressure tactics. I still demolished him with shiek.

 

[Alphatron]

Well Cape is right on the RC1 changelist, so I'll wait for the accurate changelist for this set.

I'd also like for PW's extended sss code to be implemented as well.

 

[The Cape]

More workable stages, good SSS, Brawl+ title screen, etc

SHOULD be in the final set. But I dont care about that or work on it. I just did the gameplay and balance.

 

[The_Guide]

I deleted mine (the common5.pac), still getting freezes.

Re-posting. Anyone have any clue about what might be the matter?

 

[Veril]

Cosmetic changes aren't a real impediment to a tournament ready set. They are something we all want to include, but balance comes first.

Re-posting. Anyone have any clue about what might be the matter?

Sorry... no clue. I've had no issues at all so far.

 

[Shadic]

More workable stages, good SSS, Brawl+ title screen, etc

SHOULD be in the final set. But I dont care about that or work on it. I just did the gameplay and balance.

What's your opinion on Link's bombs? Mostly in regards to them hitting eachother, and him being able to hit them.

 

[Team Giza]

And on that note, I'll be joining Cape and Veril in abandoning the sinking ship that is the WBR. Too much dead weight. Yeroc and/or Shanus, if you ever get the WBR cleaned up and back on the right track, I'd be happy to return.

*leaves group* There was no reason for me to be there anymore anyway. This set is amazing.

 

[Alphatron]

Re-posting. Anyone have any clue about what might be the matter?

Specifics on what you're using? Try getting rid of the title screen too as it seemed to freeze for others in the past. Also, how much space do you have left on your SD?

 

[JayFizzy]

We built this set
We built this set
We built this set on feel and flowww ohhhh



EDIT: OMG!!!! WARNING! WARNING! MK BUFF APPROACHING! DTHROW SPIKE ON EDGE! YES!