At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[goodoldganon]

But Cape, if there is no changelist how am I going to question this set before I play it, and in return drive you nuts? It's just not fair man, gosh. (sarcasm, please don't kill me)

The set is great. There are some questionable things with the set, but I have far from enough experience to make an educated decision on their inclusion. Hopefully, I'll get more playtime over the break. The new NADT fix is pretty nifty. Should help new players adjust.

This was a problem in GSH1 as well I think, but is there anyway to make Lucario's recovery not suck. Even if you place yourself right into the edge he'll just hit it and die. Is the intention to make Lucario recover above the stage and attack out of it or is that just something no one ever fixed?

EDIT: I never play Lucario I just went down the select screen this time and tried to figure out what changed.

 

[The Cape]

This was just cleaning up the first beta. Making everything alot more polished.

Its my personal goal to clean up a few minor mistakes (Ivy dair for example) and then release this as an official and a final untouched set.

Problem is, we have people in the backroom who "know better" than the tourney players who helped build this set, so that will probably never happen.

The set is great. There are some questionable things with the set, but I have far from enough experience to make an educated decision on their inclusion. Hopefully, I'll get more playtime over the break. The new NADT fix is pretty nifty. Should help new players adjust.

This was a problem in GSH1 as well I think, but is there anyway to make Lucario's recovery not suck. Even if you place yourself right into the edge he'll just hit it and die. Is the intention to make Lucario recover above the stage and attack out of it or is that just something no one ever fixed?

This is what I want to see from you guys. Questionable changes? Ask why they were made, not assume and go into the NY thread and talk (completely off topic) about how your character was "butchered" or attack the guy who put forth all this effort to make a balanced set as to why he made the changes. This person knows who they are.

Lucario recovery can attack or AD instantly out of it and can sweetspot after the move ends. It promotes good spacing and control of the recovery and is still generally safe with a FF AD to the stage from the end of the move (its weak point is during movement) and I actually feel this is one of the game's best recoveries.

If you feel a change that was made was controversial, please just ask me about the change and explain why you think it might be a bad change and I will actually give you an intelligent reason as to why it was made. Every change in this set was made with a purpose, I dont just throw **** out because its "cool"

 

[5ive]

Edit: 5ive isnt trolling and spamming. The set is just THAT good.

That too, but to be honest, I don't troll on SWF. I save my material for the IRC .

 

[shanus]

Couldn't find the final hitbox to change it, if you can I welcome you to do so.

The reason why this works is that it encourages Fox to space and attack with the 2 damage portion more often and it encourages his opponent to approach (and quickly). If Fox decides to use his lasers to control a match he will want to keep his distance from the opponent while the opponent will want to approach. That was the reasoning behind it (and we cant find the current 2 dmg hitbox)

As for Ivy dair, it was working fine last time I played. It shouldnt have been taken out.



U smash hits frame 6 (in the front, but only hits with **** DI), Jab hits frame 2, I think U tilt hits frame 3 as well for that matter.

I'll look into it this weekend.

 

[proteininja]

So, can someone help me with my Mario skillz? All of the character forums are dead, and I feel like I couldn't kill an 85 year old man on dialysis. Is this an issue that needs to be worked on with game changes, or (much more likely) are there some Mario strategies I am unfamiliar with? I just feel that his kill moves are completely unreliable where as a character like fox can combo into a kill move.

 

[The Cape]

Fox has very few combos into KO moves with DI.

Mario's bair (hitting out of uair especially) is very powerful. D smash out of sheild. Back throw KOs decently low, especially at the ledge. D throw > first hit fair (have good timing) is good for a star KO with called DI.

And F smash murders entire families when sweetspotted O.O

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

If the set becomes final, I would like to see some support for the extended stage selection screen and such. I'm aware that this takes a major backseat to character and balance changes, but I still think it is important not only are there a lot of good SSE stages out there, but I think we are all agreed being able to select temple would be nice.

I may be crazy but I'm noticing slight differences in Shiek's F-air. It feels like it hits very weak up until 100% ish and then very rapidly becomes a kill move. Is this true or am I just placeboing on all this DXM?

 

[proteininja]

Fox has very few combos into KO moves with DI.

Mario's bair (hitting out of uair especially) is very powerful. D smash out of sheild. Back throw KOs decently low, especially at the ledge. D throw > first hit fair (have good timing) is good for a star KO with called DI.

And F smash murders entire families when sweetspotted O.O

Thank you.

Edit: This no change list is killing my ability to test individual changes.

 

[5ive]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive
Streaming with Toronto+.

 

[MK26]

yeah, cape, i was talking about canceling the lag and stifling an approach, not necessarily comboing

edit: ninjaaaa'd

^ Cape, I think he's talking about after a shine, in which case JC usmash is basically the only grounded option.

Maestro, if you have some free time to work on a special SSS for Pound 4, hit me up on AIM sometime.

no aim, but lots of free time
pms work, irc works, just tell me what u need and ill git'r'done

======

and if you feel suspicious about a change, just check the pac. duh.

 

[Veril]

F*** releasing this before I got done with finals.

I mean... <3

 

[ValTroX]

So guys, just something i heard on the GSH1 discussion a while back and i was hoping we would get it: Are you going to remove the auto-sweetspot when the character hits someone or something on-stage? I mean, it should be removed to add the possibility to shield against recoveries on edge.

 

[shanus]

So guys, just something i heard on the GSH1 discussion a while back and i was hoping we would get it: Are you going to remove the auto-sweetspot when the character hits someone or something on-stage? I mean, it should be removed to add the possibility to shield against recoveries on edge.

Find where hitlag is in fighter.pac and I'll make the code. But I can't find it.

 

[ValTroX]

Find where hitlag is in fighter.pac and I'll make the code. But I can't find it.

How do you open the pac(which program)? I would look into it. Also it seems that it has to be done with every character right?

 

[shanus]

How do you open the pac(which program)? I would look into it. Also it seems that it has to be done with every character right?

Fighter.pac is not a single character entity. It is the overall source of how actionIDs and external subroutines govern character actions. You open it via OpenSA (dantarion's program). Then I or Yeroc write a GCT code which edits the code. However, Dantarion, yeroc and I have yet to locate any hint of hitlag in a tangible form.

It is worlds more complicated than character pac files as they use mostly undocumented functions.

 

[ValTroX]

I see, sounds complicated as hell. I will download the program and see what i can do

 

[Roxas215]

Must of been something wrong with the set when i 1st got it but ivy's dair changes are still here(thank god)

Was anything done to ivy's bulletseed? It seems to connect better. Maybe its just me

 

[Sails]

Lucario recovery can attack or AD instantly out of it and can sweetspot after the move ends. It promotes good spacing and control of the recovery and is still generally safe with a FF AD to the stage from the end of the move (its weak point is during movement) and I actually feel this is one of the game's best recoveries.

Lucario is far too floaty though. If you use it from just outside the stage reach and are falling towards the stage and not yet above it directly, you have to rely on the edge to survive. Since you're so floaty even with FF you're going to get punished or ledge hogged to your death (Unless you get really lucky with DAir spam). Combined with all the other changes to other characters and air gravity causing combos for Lucario to be pretty tough to pull off, Lucario isn't very good at all anymore. He lost his ledge gimp (Which is overpowered but when fast falling characters can still do it just fine it's kind of silly to remove), lost a lot of combo ability indirectly, and now has a pretty hard time recovering back on stage.

Bringing back auto snapping will probably not happen and I can see why, but I guess it would be cool if it were looked at a little in some real competitive play and maybe some ideas get tossed around. Just because you can attack after it doesn't mean you're going to get on the ledge. You hit someone on the ledge with FAir and you're probably still dead since you'll pass right through the ledge anyways.

 

[Shadic]

This set is crashing on me now. I went to update everything in my PF file, and now it insta-crashes on loading the CSS.

I reformatted my card, installed from scratch with nothing but what was included. New gct, everything straight from the site.

And VBrawl loads fine. And plays fine... For what it is.

 

[shanus]

I win:

Fox's laser: 18D30

Functions immediately proceeding alter the damage over the duration of the move. 10 cookies for me

 

[ZacTASTIC]

I'm sorry for being such a n00b, but was exactly was changed about the airdodge? I can't test it out right now, but I keep hearing about it.

And don't say NADT because I don't know what that means. Hahaha. I even looked it up and couldn't find it.

 

[MK26]

sooo, uhhh...whats with the kirby bthrow change?

and is teh spotdodge speedup new?

and i cant double jump after his bair

 

[FrozenHobo]

I'm sorry for being such a n00b, but was exactly was changed about the airdodge? I can't test it out right now, but I keep hearing about it.

And don't say NADT because I don't know what that means. Hahaha. I even looked it up and couldn't find it.

well, for 1 NADT is No Air Dodge in Tumble. if you look at ANY B+ topic they should cover. just ctrl+F and go through the pages.


isn't learning fun?

now, from what i understand, in this build the difference with ADing is that if done in tumble it has a longer startup/duration before invincibility. the point being that its more punishable if you try to AD while being combo'd.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

and th+, did u take jc usmash into account? i think thatd be your fastest ground option

JC usmash takes 12 frames to come out (6 to get airborne, 6 for the smash to come out). Jab takes 2 frames (plus the extra bajillion frames it takes for the shine to cool down if you don't JC it). If you wanted your fastest JC option, it would be either JC AD or JC Nair, both of which come out frame 9 (6 to get airborne, 3 for the attack/invincibility to come out).

U smash hits frame 6 (in the front, but only hits with **** DI), Jab hits frame 2, I think U tilt hits frame 3 as well for that matter.

Utilt hits frame 4 .

I'm thinking instead of making everything from my IASA frame onwards JCable, I wonder if it'd be possible to make it like Fox's JC and only have it JCable within a certain frame window (the grab point to like 2-4 frames later. Any other time will cause it to fail). More tech skill never hurt anyone, particularly those who can already time Fox's shine with a JC window. And it gives you a very good incentive to learn the correct timing.

Thoughts?

 

[Willz]

*Waits impatiently for PAL version*

 

[MK26]

remind me again how you're supposed to usmash while airborne

 

[shanus]

remind me again how you're supposed to usmash while airborne

You mean the part of code for Jump Start which explicitly lets you press up+A and go into upsmash?


@TH:

Change Action: A, req, Bit Set = RA-Basic[120]


@Frame XYZ: bit set =true, RA-Basic 120
@Frame ABC: bit clear, RA-basic 120

 

[MK26]

You mean the part of code for Jump Start which explicitly lets you press up+A and go into upsmash?

yeah.

JC usmash takes 12 frames to come out (6 to get airborne, 6 for the smash to come out).

Last i checked, that meant those 6 frames dont count

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

*Waits impatiently for PAL version*

Relevant to your post in Waluigi's thread, PAL doesn't have the File Patch Code yet, and it may never have it anytime soon. Sad, but that's just how it is considering all three of our porters are M.I.A.

 

[K.Mac]

NTSC-U Snapshot: http://www.mediafire.com/?m5ojw0tirey

No file infrastructure, but if you're using snapshots I'm pretty sure you know the motions.

You saved me having to whine about there being no snaploader. Thank you.

Also, I have no idea what you did to Luigi, but he destroyed me! I kept getting caught in his tornados, and he landed shoryukens on me ALL THE TIME. I think I might pick him up.

Luigi destroys me on both RC1 and GSH1. Not only does Nado combo into Shoryuken at low-mid percents, he also has less hitstun than most other (if not all) characters (note - I am not saying this just from experience, I am saying this from what Almas has told me - of course, this is with regards to RC1 and GSH1 so maybe GSH2 is different.)

That aside, it may be time I give the GSH2 a go, since I never did give GSH1 a good run for its money (I used the RC1 codeset and the GSH1 characters. I'm odd)

I think I will be hearing a lot of johns from my cousin about Falco's nerfs, also as many people have already mentioned back in GSH1, I'm not particularly fond of the lowered hitstun - I don't actually know how much difference it makes to the amount of hitstun frames, could somebody give me a guesstimation as to how much difference there it between hitstun on RC1 and GSH1/2 with the same scenarios (characters, attacks, percentages, etc).

For the record I'm not whining here, I'm simply curious for the truth, as I never did understand it. Is there no chance that it would be considered to be increased again in the future? I will personally laugh and change my user title to something ridiculous if there's an agreement and hitstun is increase to .47.

*Waits impatiently for PAL version*

Stop being a john and eBay a copy of NTSC off eBay. Gecko runs it fine.

 

[Willz]

Shut up Kmac before I 3stock you again.

Someone buy NTSC Brawl for Christmas for me plzzzz...

 

[RandomLax]

This set is crashing on me now. I went to update everything in my PF file, and now it insta-crashes on loading the CSS.

I reformatted my card, installed from scratch with nothing but what was included. New gct, everything straight from the site.

And VBrawl loads fine. And plays fine... For what it is.

Im having this same problem does any one have a solution to this?

 

[Veril]

Ledge-canceled aerials are the s***. The knee ledgecanceled is sublime. Definitely my favorite change in this beta, although I'm sure the removal of NADT has a lot of people pleased as well.

Guess I'll have to modify my data thread soon. Ugh, "final's Johns" will continue until tuesday, when I will probably be asleep ;p

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Shut up Kmac before I 3stock you again.

Someone buy NTSC Brawl for Christmas for me plzzzz...

Go download it. *Leaves*

 

[Isatis]

Shut up Kmac before I 3stock you again.

Someone buy NTSC Brawl for Christmas for me plzzzz...

Go download it. *Leaves*

Please get on topic, both of you, or move it to the social thread...this is a thread for Brawl+ feedback.

 

[RPGsFTW]

When you guys say final set, do you mean that you finally think that the WBR has just about gotten Brawl+ where they wanted it to be? That's cool.

What about characters reaching the apex of their jumps faster? Samus definitely could use some air speed, vertically. =[

I hope we get more stage fixes, PORT TOWN AERO DIVE+, by the supposed final set though.

And I think noticed Sonic's Fsmash being faster? I can't say for sure though. =P

Oh, and Neko, did you talk to Fow about his opinion on Brawl+?

 

[5ive]

About the double short hop fair removal;

I know it's a big change, but I actually enjoy this change greatly. I play tested this set about a week before release. When I was told SHDF was removed I was kind of hesitant, but with about 3 matches of getting used to, it was pretty much the same Marth. I know it's a drastic change from the other Smash games, but Cape's reasoning behind it made sense: he wanted to reduce SHDF camping while keeping his string game pretty much intact. When I compared it to GSH1, SHDF was actually punishable, and the second fair would often get shielded.

Today, I had a whole day to test some stuff out. Me and Eugene had some amazing Marth clips. The removal of SHDF pretty much MAKES us use other moves, and this isn't a negative. I just want to say kudos to Cape. Even if SHDF makes a return, I think this helped me to make my Marth game deeper overall.

 

[[TSON]]

hitstun is increase to .47. .

omg do want

 

[CT Chia]

so wait... is there really no changelist? if not, why?

 

[Deleted member]

no kirby changes, i take it? for the life of me, i haven't noticed anything. all his throws seem the same, the aerials seem the same. swallow is the same.

you know, i haven't tried his copied abilities though.

does anybody see anything different about him i'm not getting? not that i expected any changes, eheh. he doesn't garner (edit) a lot of attention...

i havent tested it out, but swallow MK and see if kirbyknight still exists