At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[Swordplay]

At first I thought this post was a waste of time and looked like a post just to raise my post count but whatever, STFU. Other people have done worse

============

God I love the new cape. He knows whats going on and gets **** done. I approve.

On the change list note. Don't you guys see? If cape even tells you what moves were changed you'll go on and make assumptions and inferences about those moves. Play the character in its entirety instead of focusing in on specific moves.

I for one have tested 3 characters (and I shall now to bed) but this build feels better than past GSH builds. I won't do any more testing though. I'm going to stick to RC1 until this build becomes official. Sticking to official builds for the most part is the only part that has kept me sane in the constantly changing world of B+

=================

This probably goes in a PM but since everybody is saying welcome back cape, I'd like to share my thoughts.

Seriously though the new Cape is so epic now. Where ever this attitude came from I hope it stays. I'm not sucking up. I'm just full of respect because his knowledge of the game is really having a positive impact on the community (more so than in the past). Seriously the best thing he ever did was explode cause now more people listen to him. This picture says it all. I think the man in this picture is the new cape! He is just a big F#&$ YOU to the world as he does **** correctly.


Keep up the attitude, This community needs a strong leader to push them once and a while and your ideas have shown that your capable of doing that.

 

[iLink]

Did Ivy's fthrow always have that low of an angle?

 

[Isatis]

Past GSH builds? There have only been one past GSH build

I did try the new set -- when Cape was demoing it at a smashfest, and a few hours ago, and I do have some high hopes that this actually does become the final set

 

[Swordplay]

Past GSH builds.

What I meant by this is the original GSH build and all the little fixes that came after it was released that made us update.

 

[GuruKid]

I'll be testing this set at a smashfest tomorrow (today). Will give extensive feedback from myself and other players.

Any new stage changes we should be aware of?

 

[matt4300]

Ok, so I was playing samus and was like... -__- then I saw that her missles come out faster and was like o_o then found out you can LAND CANCEL THEM and was like @o@' **** YES!!!!

EDIT: Super missles back to 12% from 15% (GSH1) and homeing missles to 6%. We all know that bombs explode on contact but they also always do 5% now.

more: All samus ftilts now do 10% rather than the old varying with the tilt direction/hip vs foot hitboxes.

 

[Isatis]

Past GSH builds.

What I meant by this is the original GSH build and all the little fixes that came after it was released that made us update.

Ah I see

I'll be testing this set at a smashfest tomorrow (today). Will give extensive feedback from myself and other players.

Any new stage changes we should be aware of?

Other than ledgeteching (judging by the TXT), no

 

[KOkingpin]

just curious if Ganon's D-throw is Techable? If not its a free D-tilt. If so the its kinda trash (which i don't mind)

also Yoshi's D-throw can chainthrow i think(might only be Bowser and Dedede due to size). Might wanna test that out just in case. Did it get a dmg Buff (4 > 6%)?

The more you guys change sets around the more i realize i wanna main yoshi. keep up the good work. Cape you are a beast and I <3 you (no homo)

 

[Thunderhorse+]

TO EVERYONE WONDERING ABOUT WHY FALCO'S SHINE WAS CHANGED

Falco's shine was changed because Cape deemed it too unpunishable. Cape had a valid point, so we brainstormed on a solution to the problem. I proposed the idea of JC on grab, and Cape got to work. Cape made Falco's shine be JC-able at frame 40, the same frame you could normally act with the current RC1 shine, and intelligently gave you guys a visual cue on when to attempt a JC (when Falco grabs his shine, you JC. Not messy at all, which was my initial concern with a JC shine). He also initially proposed a heightened angle to synergize with the new JC-ability of the shine, but when I tested it, it proved to be completely escapable due to the extra distance Falco had to close on the opponent. Even with sub-par DI, the CPU could jump out of it. So that was nixed. For a better representation of the differences, look below:

RC1 Falco shine:

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 12-13 frames
grab: f 30-31
put away: f 40
soonest frame of action: 42 (jab)
frames of punishability: 23

Cape Falco shine:

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 22 frames
grab: f 40
put away: f 62
soonest frame of action: 49 (JC SH AD), 64 [!!!] (jab)
frames of punishability: 30 (JC), 45 (normal)

Your fastest action now has an added 7 frames before you can do anything (and has rendered jabbing/other super fast ground moves useless out of a jab).

It was extremely good in theory, but even to me, the move seems unnaturally sluggish. I'm working on a more streamlined version of it atm which will flow better while giving punishability around the same levels as Cape's shine. The specs for mine are as follows:

Thunderhorse Falco shine: [these all have variables in them. I wish to test out which pair of IASA/ending frame work the best]

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 17-19 frames
grab: f 35-38
put away: f 51-56 (51 being v-Brawl's put away)
soonest frame of action: 44-47 (JC SH AD), 53 - 58 (jab)
frames of punishability: 25-28 (JC), 34-39 (normal)

ideally:

pullback duration: 18 (IASA 36) [exactly halfway between the v-Brawl shine's 14 frame pullback, and Cape's current 22 frame shine pullback. Actually ideally I want it to be closer to vBrawl's pullback, but that would screw up the entire calculation. This is the best I could do.]
put away duration: 19 (IASA 36, put away 55) [exactly the same as v-Brawl's 19 frame put away duration]
soonest frame of action: 45 (JC AD SH), 57 (jab) [almost exactly halfway between the soonest possible frame to react on both other shines, erring towards RC1's when JCed. When not JCed, it shaves a respectable 7 frames of punishment time, which I thought was a bit overkill. It's also not that much worse than vBrawl's 53 soonest frame of action with jab.]
frames of punishability: 26 (JC), 38 (normal) [again, almost exactly halfway between RC1's and Cape's, erring towards RC1's. Shaved a good 7 frames off of the worst possible outcome]

If it's still too fast/unpunishable, we can still bump up the IASA/end frame by one to make it err in the Cape shine's favor. Though if 3 frames doesn't make enough of a difference, he can't justify...one of his other changes X).

Now Thunderhorse, why make the move even faster with an IASA frame that's better than the normal endlag for RC1 shine?

1. shut up
2. As you can see, it is, in fact, not faster due to the best possible action with my shine being 27 and RC1's being 23. Yes it's faster than Cape's 30, but not by a whole lot, and the general consensus seems to indicate that it's too slow.
3. Remember that whole "higher angle" bit that was meant to help out aerials but instead ruined aerial combos? That is why I put in increased IASA. with mine, I plan to re-add in the higher angle to the shine. That way, though Falco can take action sooner, he uses the extra time to make up for the increased distance that he now has to travel in the air. The final piece that I'm missing is that I need the frame at which Falco peaks his FH, so that I may synchronize the IASA frame to make up for the extra distance he has to travel. And of course, even with the increase in IASA, he still responds to punishment slower than his RC1 counterpart.

TL;DR

Cape thought shine was too unpunishable. He added IASA frames and really slowed the move down. Thunderhorse is going to take some clippers to that hedge and streamline it the **** up.

 

[matt4300]

ok someones gonna have to fill me in on all the ftilt changes... why? Seriously did luigi really need that extra 1% on his ftilt? or samus need her ftilt at 10 percent no matter what? seems like a pointless bunch of changes... and anything that makes luigi do MORE damage is ****ing stupid.

WTF foxes lazers CAPE people AWSOME! (and do less damage the closer a char is) Way to add some depth to fox cape(or whoever thought of it) ! Three seems to be the magic number of shots required to flip the enemy.

 

[Izaniki]

Just to let you know, Toon Link is completely unplayable atm. His dash attack is broken and whenever I tried to recover with his UpB, i started teleporting all over (this was on FD). So...yeah D:

 

[GHNeko]

It's official.

Ike is GAY.

 

[5ive]

It's official.

Ike is GAY.

I cosign this statement.

 

[Sterowent]

WTF foxes lazers CAPE people AWSOME! (and do less damage the closer a char is) Way to add some depth to fox cape(or whoever thought of it) ! Three seems to be the magic number of shots required to flip the enemy.

holy ****, he's right!

also, haven't tested TL on FD yet, but battlefield was fine at least.

edit: something strange though. while testing out TL, i at one point uaired a CPU ike while he was on a platform, hitting the shield of course, but, and my guess is because of the lingering hitbox, the second strike of the uair sent the ike and my TL in opposite directions, like two magnets. was pretty cool.

 

[Izaniki]

holy ****, he's right!

also, haven't tested TL on FD yet, but battlefield was fine at least.

I dunno, maybe there's something off with my download or something, cause I'm also not having Fox's lasers flip people :o I dunno, I'll be trying other characters in awhile

Oh, just tried TL again, and it wasn't his UpB it was his Fair. His dash is still broken on mine though

Edit again: I think I know the problem. It looks like a TL motion.pac from a dif PSA character was still in the file. I forgot to check if the update changed that or not, but I'm guessing not! :O

Edit yet again!: Ok, everything is fixed now lol. Fox's lasers are properly flipping people, TL isn't glitching out.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I dunno, maybe there's something off with my download or something, cause I'm also not having Fox's lasers flip people :o I dunno, I'll be trying other characters in awhile

i think your download is broken

 

[Shadic]

What is this with people saying Fox's damage do more damage from further away? This certainly isn't the case on my end.

And the flipping is sorta cool.

 

[Izaniki]

What is this with people saying Fox's damage do more damage from further away? This certainly isn't the case on my end.

And the flipping is sorta cool.

@Fox Laser: Yeah, it does 2% if they're far away, 1% otherwise. Not sure where the cutoff point is for the change over though D:

Wonder what the time window is to get in the 3rd shot to flip (assuming there is one)...hmm.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So is there a reason why Falco can't jump-cancel his shines if you start the shine while airborne?

And great...more Marth nerfs...but this time, it's something huge...

But I'm totally loving the changes to Samus's specials. Samus is becoming more and more like her Melee counterpart, which is probably the ideal Samus.

And what is this caping Fox laser I'm hearing about? I'm not getting that effect. The varying damage on the lasers is working, so I don't think it's a problem with the file not working. But to make sure, I tried both the auto-updater and the manual way to get the two Fox .pac files, and still no cape effect.
Edit: And I'm getting 2% damage from mid to max distance, and 1% when close, if that says anything...

Edit2: Okay, so I got it to work, but for some reason, it doesn't work on human controlled players (I was testing it in training mode under "control", as well as VS mode, before). Also, when I add in other codes not defaulted in B+ (one of which is a Default Level 9 CPU code, and none that actually affects gameplay), instead of turning, they jump. I've noticed this laser-forced jumping of CPUs in GSH1, as well (I also used the aforementioned extra codes then, too). This makes me believe that this is just a CPU bug...

 

[shanus]

Hope you guys enjoy the samus stuff I made (I should really check if the missile cancels use the old code or not)

 

[mofo_]

okay about this fox laser thing. are you sure its from the new build?

because in vbrawl shooting a lvl 3 cpu would cause it to turn around or twitch and shooting a lvl 9 cpu would cause to jump

 

[Kitamerby]

I can has the Ivysaur dair recovery back plz? D:

 

[Sterowent]

hmm, on second thought, maybe kirby was changed. but, you know, it's all placebo likely, ahah.

there any changes to the usmash, i wonder? or ugrav? racking my brain trying to figure out if anything's changed...

either way, i really like the edgecanceling, heh.

edit: was sonic always this fun? i know his changes had a lot of input behind them, but i don't know exactly what those changes are.

maybe it's because sonic's such an amazing techchaser that he feels 100% more entertaining to me now. maybe it's the bair and fsmash which i have a feeling were made faster (fits right in). whatever it may be, it's **** good.

 

[Roxas215]

I want combos, not sloppy strings

These builds are getting more and more tech chasey.
If combos are easy mode then I need moar easy mode because easy mode is fun :/

Will there be a future build where characters are heavier or there's a bit more HS?

Getting hit 7-8 times with no way out isn't fun. It's broken. (RC1 Ness)
Strings>Combos

The thing that makes smash different from other fighters is all the options u have to get out of "combos" Di,teching,air dodge etc. If this set makes these "combos" more tech chase heavy instead of "easy mode" then im all for it.(Since this is the main reason alot of people dislike brawl+)

Anyway played around with it for about 20 mins. Only tested out peach and ivy since those are the only 2 chars i care about. Didn't notice anything different peach. But why in the hell would yall take ivy dair out form gsh1? I freaking loved that

I will say this though cape. I remember thinking badly about putting stale moves back in when u told me at btl2. After playing around with it i do indeed like it! GJ cape!

Im going to try to get my crew mate TUSM to try out the samus changes though. Im sure he'll like it!

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Go by feel, not by paper.

It's a shame that sensible people have to pay the price for those who have been morons about changelists in the past. Oh well. Can't be helped for now, and you mentioned a comprehensive vB/B+ changelist eventually, which is actually the better way to go.

Experimenting is interesting, I'm useless without my hard numbers as I don't trust my "feel". There's not a single fighting game that I play without having at least a glance at frame data/properties chart.

I'll try and do it your way because I'm grateful but I could end up being wrong...

 

[ValTroX]

TO EVERYONE WONDERING ABOUT WHY FALCO'S SHINE WAS CHANGED

Falco's shine was changed because Cape deemed it too unpunishable. Cape had a valid point, so we brainstormed on a solution to the problem. I proposed the idea of JC on grab, and Cape got to work. Cape made Falco's shine be JC-able at frame 40, the same frame you could normally act with the current RC1 shine, and intelligently gave you guys a visual cue on when to attempt a JC (when Falco grabs his shine, you JC. Not messy at all, which was my initial concern with a JC shine). He also initially proposed a heightened angle to synergize with the new JC-ability of the shine, but when I tested it, it proved to be completely escapable due to the extra distance Falco had to close on the opponent. Even with sub-par DI, the CPU could jump out of it. So that was nixed. For a better representation of the differences, look below:

RC1 Falco shine:

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 12-13 frames
grab: f 30-31
put away: f 40
soonest frame of action: 42 (jab)
frames of punishability: 23

Cape Falco shine:

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 22 frames
grab: f 40
put away: f 62
soonest frame of action: 49 (JC SH AD), 64 [!!!] (jab)
frames of punishability: 30 (JC), 45 (normal)

Your fastest action now has an added 7 frames before you can do anything (and has rendered jabbing/other super fast ground moves useless out of a jab).

It was extremely good in theory, but even to me, the move seems unnaturally sluggish. I'm working on a more streamlined version of it atm which will flow better while giving punishability around the same levels as Cape's shine. The specs for mine are as follows:

Thunderhorse Falco shine: [these all have variables in them. I wish to test out which pair of IASA/ending frame work the best]

out: f 8
final hitbox: f 18
pullback duration: 17-19 frames
grab: f 35-38
put away: f 51-56 (51 being v-Brawl's put away)
soonest frame of action: 44-47 (JC SH AD), 53 - 58 (jab)
frames of punishability: 25-28 (JC), 34-39 (normal)

ideally:

pullback duration: 18 (IASA 36) [exactly halfway between the v-Brawl shine's 14 frame pullback, and Cape's current 22 frame shine pullback. Actually ideally I want it to be closer to vBrawl's pullback, but that would screw up the entire calculation. This is the best I could do.]
put away duration: 19 (IASA 36, put away 55) [exactly the same as v-Brawl's 19 frame put away duration]
soonest frame of action: 45 (JC AD SH), 57 (jab) [almost exactly halfway between the soonest possible frame to react on both other shines, erring towards RC1's when JCed. When not JCed, it shaves a respectable 7 frames of punishment time, which I thought was a bit overkill. It's also not that much worse than vBrawl's 53 soonest frame of action with jab.]
frames of punishability: 26 (JC), 38 (normal) [again, almost exactly halfway between RC1's and Cape's, erring towards RC1's. Shaved a good 7 frames off of the worst possible outcome]

If it's still too fast/unpunishable, we can still bump up the IASA/end frame by one to make it err in the Cape shine's favor. Though if 3 frames doesn't make enough of a difference, he can't justify...one of his other changes X).

Now Thunderhorse, why make the move even faster with an IASA frame that's better than the normal endlag for RC1 shine?

1. shut up
2. As you can see, it is, in fact, not faster due to the best possible action with my shine being 27 and RC1's being 23. Yes it's faster than Cape's 30, but not by a whole lot, and the general consensus seems to indicate that it's too slow.
3. Remember that whole "higher angle" bit that was meant to help out aerials but instead ruined aerial combos? That is why I put in increased IASA. with mine, I plan to re-add in the higher angle to the shine. That way, though Falco can take action sooner, he uses the extra time to make up for the increased distance that he now has to travel in the air. The final piece that I'm missing is that I need the frame at which Falco peaks his FH, so that I may synchronize the IASA frame to make up for the extra distance he has to travel. And of course, even with the increase in IASA, he still responds to punishment slower than his RC1 counterpart.

TL;DR

Cape thought shine was too unpunishable. He added IASA frames and really slowed the move down. Thunderhorse is going to take some clippers to that hedge and streamline it the **** up.

I'm up for your idea, i think it got WAY too slow

It's official.

Ike is GAY.

Cosign.

 

[Daakun]

Needs less Temple killing, more new stage button.

 

[Alphatron]

Needs less Temple killing, more new stage button.

I think MK26 was busy, as he was the one messing around with this in the past for the set. But I 100% agree on this.

Anyway, I'm gonna update at a friend's house.

 

[shanus]

I typed a long post about why fox's lasers should be reversed to 2 damage at close range (approximately 2-3 roll lengths requiring calculated use) and 1 damage from afar (encouraging camping by 2 laser damage from afar is a backwards approach since you are demanding the other player to approach instead of demanding the player not camp), but I'm too lazy to type a long post again.

If we have granularity as to the distance of damage switch, this change should be implemented.

 

[matt4300]

Hmmm.... Has luigi or Pika been nerfed? I've been waiting for considerable nerfs on them since brawl+ started but luigi has gotten few and pika has gotten none... I can't see any damage nerfs. Mabey fixed kill powers on some of there moves? mabey

 

[Sterowent]

agreeing with shanus, because it makes sense. also, shine. how's that doin? i should look at fox more.


and, hey, at least be happy pika's thunder combos aren't as guaranteed now. that was ridiculous to the max.

 

[proteininja]

I played Bowser and Mario for about 10 matches each.

Bowser- I don't know if anything was changed, but he felt perfect. Everything I wanted to happen came to be, and I found that everything seemed natural and useful in some situation in his moveset.

Mario- Still feels like he is missing something. Couldn't kill until VERY high percents and that is because unless you kill with bair it is nearly impossible to kill with usmash or fsmash or dsmash. I have to admit I still am really noob at Mario, but it just feels that if the character he is playing knows how to avoid the cape on recovery it takes an eternity to kill them. His combo game is off the chain until about 50 percent at which point he devolves into spacing back airs with fireballs until they run into a fsmash or an usmash. Which doesn't happen alot. Thoughts?

 

[MK26]

ok party time
exams done = b+ stuffz nao

and th+, did u take jc usmash into account? i think thatd be your fastest ground option

 

[The Cape]

I typed a long post about why fox's lasers should be reversed to 2 damage at close range (approximately 2-3 roll lengths requiring calculated use) and 1 damage from afar (encouraging camping by 2 laser damage from afar is a backwards approach since you are demanding the other player to approach instead of demanding the player not camp), but I'm too lazy to type a long post again.

If we have granularity as to the distance of damage switch, this change should be implemented.

Couldn't find the final hitbox to change it, if you can I welcome you to do so.

The reason why this works is that it encourages Fox to space and attack with the 2 damage portion more often and it encourages his opponent to approach (and quickly). If Fox decides to use his lasers to control a match he will want to keep his distance from the opponent while the opponent will want to approach. That was the reasoning behind it (and we cant find the current 2 dmg hitbox)

As for Ivy dair, it was working fine last time I played. It shouldnt have been taken out.

and th+, did u take jc usmash into account? i think thatd be your fastest ground option

U smash hits frame 6 (in the front, but only hits with **** DI), Jab hits frame 2, I think U tilt hits frame 3 as well for that matter.

 

[JCaesar]

edit: ninjaaaa'd

^ Cape, I think he's talking about after a shine, in which case JC usmash is basically the only grounded option.

Maestro, if you have some free time to work on a special SSS for Pound 4, hit me up on AIM sometime.

 

[5ive]

and, hey, at least be happy pika's thunder combos aren't as guaranteed now. that was ridiculous to the max.

Not really. Even in RC1, thunder stuff wasn't that big anymore. As Toronto+ got more experienced on how to play against Pika, they learned to DI to avoid thunder finishers. Even previously, I said usmash was the only "semi legit" way to combo into thunder.

Up tilt combos into thunder at very high percents.
Dsmash combos into thunder if you don't DI - with that said, there are two different opportunities to SDI dsmash.

Now I realize up smash is also easily Smash DIable. To combo, or more appropriately "string" into thunder, you pretty much have to read them, or play against someone who sucks.

Thunder is much more apporpiate for edgeguarding, and even then, a smart opponent can learn to bypass these thunders.

Long story short, learn to DI.

 

[The Cape]

Long story short, learn to DI.

And learn the matchup.

Pika is good, not overpowered.

 

[5ive]

Oh yeah, Cape. Is there a certain change that allows for easier edge cancels? Because I've been edge canceling like crazy.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[The Cape]

Yes there was a ledge cancelling code that allows you to cancel your lag by sliding off the platform. Tricky to get used it, but very handy if used right.

Edit: 5ive isnt trolling and spamming. The set is just THAT good.

 

[BIGM1994]

why keep making new ones? i thought brawl+ beta is really really good