Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Purpletuce]

That is awesome to hear! Doing well in crew battles is such a good feeling, you don't want to let your crew down. Although yes, Yoshi destroys Roy. One of my main training buddies I consider better than myself, and he has a Roy secondary, which almost always loses to my Yoshi. Hell, when I played M2K the stream asked him to go Roy, and he declined citing the MU as unwinnable.

Is the stream up somewhere?

 

[MrHazuki]

Iron Man is like a crew battle but only one-on-one, with 5 characters. My 5 were Yoshi, Peach, Ganon, Falcon and Fox.

Link: http://www.twitch.tv/ludendi/b/434116520
It begins at 19h15min. The chat liked both my Yoshi and Ganon.

 

[Purpletuce]

My apologies, I didn't see that it was an iron man. Those are super fun, I wish I did more. I'll try to watch the video, but right now my computer isn't playing it very well. It might be able to buffer. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

I also have experience in the Roy MU and it's definitely in Yoshi's favor by a wide margin. Roy has no good setups on Yoshi aside from D-tilt -> F-smash and has even more trouble killing him than Marth does. His fall speed also lets Yoshi easily combo him with U-air chains. Yoshi's double D-tilt edgeguard is also an instant kill on him, except when Randall comes to the rescue.

 

[Jackie]

I honestly believe Roy is the worst character in the game. He cannot kill you if you platform camp. He has to make hard reads. He's easy to combo and edgeguard. I could go on and on.

For Yoshi versus Roy, it's horrible for Roy because Yoshi can laugh at all of Roy's aerials and kill setups. Roy does just terrible against characters with a good crouch cancel game as well.

ICs are very tough for Yoshi. IC uair and grab game dominate Yoshi. It's not unwinnable, but your execution has to be close to flawless. If you misspace a move or mess up an L-cancel, IC gets a grab. Grab = death. Yoshi doesn't outrange ICs very easily, so it's very hard to avoid getting grabbed. Those double hits from ICs also makes it harder to parry.

I'm not experienced in the matchup as Yoshi, but I've trained Vman with my ICs. Once Yoshi actually gets a clean hit, it's not too difficult to separate the two. Essentially, you have to be extremely patient as Yoshi and go balls to the wall once you get it in.

It might sound like 'duh' knowledge that Sopo is much weaker, but I think it's more so applicable in this matchup. ICs really negate many of Yoshi's perks, but Yoshi is very strong against Sopo. A strong Sopo can hold his own against a Fox better than most people realize, but a strong Yoshi has less weaknesses versus Sopo, strangely enough. I think Sopo can still chaingrab pretty easily, so you still have to keep your 'don't get grabbed' mantra in mind. Sopo generally relies on defensive play and random wavedash smashes, since he can't just jump at you and aerial.

 

[V3ctorMan]

so what's going on in here..? sorry i've been gone for a few days....

Sadly the store I was working at closed down, so I've been assuring I've got another job lined up for me... For now at least, things are in good hands, so I'll be around more.... Man, I miss playing already, haha, and can't wait to play more... in case you guys haven't.. I'd check aMSa's channel... He's so talented.. <3

Yoshi's got a bright looking future! Let's keep it up everyone..!!

and haha of the yoshi players, i'm sure aMSa, and myself have alot of experience in the MU.... it's a nightmare honestly, but can be done with the right amount of patience and execution.

 

[Kimimaru]

I ended up getting 13th in the tournament yesterday after getting 3rd seed in my pool (2nd after Germ left the venue), and there were roughly 70 entrants total. I really think I could've gotten at least 9th, but in my last match I was really tired and just wanted to go back home. The good news is I got at least one set recorded, it being against SFAT.

 

[V3ctorMan]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOT

Good stuff Kimimaru, and awesome you finally got a set recorded ... and hey man 13th is good, especially, the competition there in Cali...

Can't wait to see your stuff man, and keep at it.. ^^

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, watch my jank-*** Yoshi combo from dair. :D

Single hit dair still combos.

KOing from a 46%, 2-hit combo on Marth's recovery is pretty fun.

Ignore the rest of my gameplay. I only played him 2 games that day so my parrying was awful and I wasn't playing smart at all. lol

 

[Jiv]

So here's a question VMan

How's it feel being second best at a character two ppl play? Juuuust kidding lol

Lookin into maining yoshi bc I think he sounds funny and is cute n I've been watching amsa videos for like an hour. I don't play this game anymore but Evos making me want to play competitively

Hey guys

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey! It's always good to have more Yoshi mains!

I'm glad you decided to pick up a character as undeveloped as Yoshi. Know that Yoshi is a very technically demanding character so you'll need to have a good bit of tech skill down before you can utilize all of his options effectively.

The first thing you want to practice when maining Yoshi is double jump canceling (DJC). Experiment with his double jump a lot and get used to it. Then, get the timing down for all of his DJC aerials. After that I'd say start working on movement, like wavelands, creative DJ uses, and his instant edgehog. After that you should get into ECEs, combos, and the like.

I'd stick with the first 3 sentences for now and move on to the next once you're comfortable. Good luck!

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hahahahaha, nice man glad to see you playing/picking up Yoshi... and LOL at this point... idk if i'm even if i'm considered a good yoshi! xD everyone's catching up, and/or has already surpassed me... It's hype! , but in the end im glad ^^

aMSa <--- (make sure you include the proper capitalizations.. It's important) is amazing! Yeah he's amazing.. we played so much together at Evo...

on another note.. 2/2 ain't half bad..

on another "side" note. .there are more than 2 yoshi's too..

anyway yeah i'd definetely suggest you watch aMSa's yoshi if you wanna learn things... We discussed at EVO likely making a "guide/tutorial" of some sort at EVO... and he's off to a very good start showcasing it... He'll prolly do everything actually.. cuz I suck and get lazy..

<3

anyways what's up?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kimimaru! <3 thanks.. Listen to Kimimaru and others too, they know their stuff ^^

 

[Kimimaru]

My matches should've been up by now but they're not; none of the matches from that tournament are up yet. I've been posting about it on the Facebook group but no news so far and it has almost been two weeks.

 

[Mind Trick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwpygv9-Z0I
Is there a trick to this? I seem to fall to my death every time I try this.

@Bones
Is dair to upsmash guaranteed? lol
Probably wil be hard to hit on most of the cast because of sdi, unless you have time to turn around.
I dont like the move much except for occasional platform techchases, but punishing slow recoveries on stage might be good with it.

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwpygv9-Z0I
Is there a trick to this? I seem to fall to my death every time I try this.

@Bones
Is dair to upsmash guaranteed? lol
Probably wil be hard to hit on most of the cast because of sdi, unless you have time to turn around.
I dont like the move much except for occasional platform techchases, but punishing slow recoveries on stage might be good with it.

I don't have my cube on atm, but can't you hold up after DAing to slide off?

Yeah, it combos at mid-high percents (depending on the character's weight ofc). If they SDI away from you, you can dsmash instead. Even if they SDI behind you, usmash actually hits really far behind you or you could turn around and dsmash for an even faster followup (as well as virtually guaranteeing death because it's a dsmash at the ledge lol).

 

[MrHazuki]

No, not up. Down, back, forward and L/R works. I just hold L after initiating the DA. Requires pretty intense timing.

 

[Purpletuce]

You can also input the UpB/neutral B at very specific timing and it will do it for you.

I went to a smashfest yesterday that turned into a 1$ tourney. I got 5th, which is what I should have gotten, there were a ton of new players there, 4 really good players(Shane/Eggz, Gage(Puff who beat SB), Foos(2nd on OR PR) and Ty(Fox from HI), and one person my level (The Falco I've struggled with). Lost to Ty and Gage. I took a 1$ MM from the Falco, and from Foos's Marth.

One thing I did a ton, I think Bones would like, is if you're doing ECEs, and they are scared, jumping from the ledge with a dair, following an egg seems really good. Yeah, it is risky, but if you can Dair, you'll probably either shield poke, or you can land behind them and be fine.

Also I managed a 2v1 comeback against a Falco at mid % and a Falcon at low %. My ending % was 217. Shenanigans.

 

[Tomber]

Sup guys. I've been thinking about picking up Yoshi as a Peach "counter". Then, after playing around with him a bit, I watched couple of Yoshi vs. Peach matches, and the match up looks kind of hard to me. What do you think? How bad is this match up? I'm pretty good at stuff like shield dropping and parrying and I think I could get a pretty solid Yoshi at some point, but I haven't really played the Peach match up at all myself.

 

[Purpletuce]

Uhh, that is a hard MU for Yoshi, and he is probably one of the worst characters to get as a Peach CP. Or for any CP for that matter. He requires you to develop a very specific mindset and set of skills, and has a ton of details for you to learn. All that for a MU he already struggles with, you're probably better off trying your main, whoever that is.

If you're interested in Yoshi, for sure give him a try. Although I would advise against developing him exclusively as a Peach counter.

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey Tomber! I'm the Yoshi player that played you and Navn at that tournament a couple of weeks ago in NorCal.

Yoshi is a very technical character just like the Ice Climbers. Unfortunately, Yoshi shares a bad MU against Peach with them as well. I actually think that Peach is Yoshi's worst matchup, but it's by no means impossible.

With that said, I think you are better off finding a good playstyle against Peach or looking at another character that has a good MU with her. As Purpletuce said, Yoshi is very intricate so it will take you a while before you can muster a decent one.

 

[Jackie]

I spent a few hours with Vman playing Yoshi dittos, fun times.

Random little tips:

Something really basic but forgotten about: retreating short hop forward air. Most Yoshis try to DJC all their aerials, and this is a case where you cannot DJC. This is obviously a defensive option but very useful versus aggressive characters with smaller hitboxes/short legs (spacies).

From watching aMSa, I realized how good fair>utilt at low percent is. Utilt will put them in tumble even at really low percents... is it even crouchcancellable? Regardless, I learned its perks over ftilt. Ftilt has a bigger hitbox overall, but is punishable at very low percents. Utilt will pop them up at low percents, but the horizontal hitbox is pretty bad. I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I feel it's really important to distinguish these traits to know when to use which move.

Fsmash is a mediocre move choice when you get a free punish. However, its known that it dodges attacks and counter attacks. Most players won't react to this and will DI poorly, which is where fsmash's true strength lies.

If you have trouble jumping and throwing eggs without jump cancelling, just use the control stick to jump. This way, you're already holding up and can throw your egg without triggering your second jump.

ECE method: let go of the edge by pushing away from the edge with the C-stick, then use up on the control stick to jump cancel and throw your egg in one motion.

 

[MrHazuki]

Hey, Tomber. Anything is better than IC against Peach, so if you'd like I can teach you some stuff at KFC3.

 

[Kimimaru]

I've been using F-air -> U-tilt at low percents for a while now; once my videos finally get uploaded you guys will see me using it a lot. The fact that it always forces a knock down if not CCd is a great property of the move. This is possible because it has a high base knockback but very low knockback growth, which makes kill combos like U-tilt -> U-air possible on characters like Marth and Sheik even at +100%. U-tilt is CCable but not after an F-air.

 

[Jackie]

This is possible because it has a high base knockback but very low knockback growth

Ahhhhh that's how you verbalize that. Kind of like Pikachu's uair. Damn, melee is so technical. Thanks for the clarification. I'm eager to finally see you play.

 

[Tomber]

Uhh, that is a hard MU for Yoshi, and he is probably one of the worst characters to get as a Peach CP. Or for any CP for that matter. He requires you to develop a very specific mindset and set of skills, and has a ton of details for you to learn. All that for a MU he already struggles with, you're probably better off trying your main, whoever that is.

If you're interested in Yoshi, for sure give him a try. Although I would advise against developing him exclusively as a Peach counter.

I see. Well, thanks anyway. I thought Yoshi could work because it's a match up not that many people/Peach players know. At this point it's really hard to pick up a counter pick character because pretty much everyone know all of the high tier match ups. Like, I could pick up Puffs (which I'ce considered too), but it will probably take me too long to learn the match up good enough to use her as a counter. I don't really have any Peach player to practice with which is a problem too.

Oh, and I'l playing ICs if you haven't realized that yet, so "trying your main" isn't really a good idea. The match up really is that hard if the Peach player knows what to do. I have an alright Peach myself which I use in the ditto from time to time so I might just stick with her, but most Peach main have more experience than me in that match up as well so I don't know. I already play the two character that differ the much most from the rest of the cast IMO so picking up another weird one isn't really a problem. I like the idea of having to develop some new skills and might end up picking him up just to get to know the character better in case I face one sometime in the future. That's what I did with Peach.

@Kimimaru: Hey dude. Yeah, I remember you. You had a pretty solid Yoshi from what I could see.

And yeah, you're probably right. I've considered to just get really good at the ICs Peach match up and win it that way, but at this point I just don't think it's possible. Peach players who think the match up a is about down-smash a lot are not that hard to beat, but once the Peach player starts to actually play the match up it becomes pretty much impossible. You have to win the spacing war to many times to get a stock where she only has to hit you a few times with fair and it's over. Sometimes you get a grab or two, but Peach is one of the best characters in the game to kill Nana at low risk so it's often just Sopo against Peach which is better for Peach than pretty much any low tier match up. After watching both Fly and Wobbles (who kind of has become a specialist in the match up from the ICs' side) getting beaten by Armada as bad as me when I'm playing him I really don't think that's any win you can win the match up.

@VJ: Yeah, I think that too at this point, haha. If I go would love to learn should tricks from you. I hear you kind of main Yoshi atm.

 

[Kimimaru]

You played Armada recently? Does that mean he didn't retire after all?

 

[Tomber]

Not recently, but I've played against him a couple of times in the past including tournament matches. These are our most recent recorded matches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKycl3Ktk2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2t2LJE1dx0

Last time I played against him in singles was in january '13.

 

[Jackie]

As someone who can play a half-decent Peach, I strongly recommend against picking up Yoshi as a counter to the match-up. You'd need a fantastic Yoshi to do well. Peach doesn't need to adapt to the match-up as much as other characters. She can just play solid Peach spacing and win.

Yoshi has the gimmick factor versus fastfallers, since one well placed parry can lead to a death combo. You can't do that versus floaties, and they can just poke you to death.

Peach is one of the few characters versus Yoshi where traded hits are in her favor instead. But her hitboxes beat out Yoshi most of the time, so she usually won't trade.

Egg throwing a recovering Peach is pretty fun though, not gonna lie.

 

[Tomber]

Those are some good points. Even though I'd really like to throw eggs at her while she's recovering, hah.

I might just stick with Peach or ICs then. I should be able to beat most Peaches with those anyway. Armada and M2K are apparently the only players who player the Peach ICs match up right afaik.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm a little slow, so I'm responding to some old comments. . .

What if the utility of retreating SH N-air? I don't know what it beats out. I usually use Nair if it is part of a combo, or I'm going around something. I generally don't try to beat anything with it. It might beat a Fox drill approach?

I started looking at Fair -> Utilt when I first saw it, which was from Leffen. He has been using it since before I picked up Yoshi. In fact it is what I use at low %s against everyone I don't want to grab. AKA I use it against everyone but spacies. Once they get to high enough percent that they'll bounce I usually do a DJC Nair, or DJC Uair (preferred). Fair-> Utilt -> DJC Uair chain is amazing.

I haven't really tried Fair -> Utilt at higher %s though, will do.

 

[MrHazuki]

I got to play with a really aggro Fox this weekend, which really meant Parry Practice! I still don't have the reflex to jump and nair, but I can time the shield very often. I'm getting there!

 

[Kimimaru]

One of the most satisfying things to do with Yoshi is parry approaches and see your opponent's reaction, haha.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Not sure if aMSa or I showed either one of you this trick... but take a look.. ^^

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXms0Pia1FM - 4:39..

aMSa showed this to me during EVO.. and I showed him a few things too.. he showed me a peach trick also...

just spreading the love cuz I was unsure if aMSa or myself spread the love yet... (no you're not invincible) but it's cool looking


- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXms0Pia1FM - 15:10 how all Future Yoshi dittos should look like... (just kidding btw)

NOTE: I have no idea how to timestamp so yeah if someone wants to post that for me.. so I can delete.. thanks >.>;

 

[Ripple]

add "?t=XmXs" to the end of it

 

[Purpletuce]

That was the trick you were talking about? I'm pretty sure it has been posted about somewhere. I figure most people have probably stumbled upon this at least once. Impressive consistency though

 

[Kimimaru]

I've gotten it to work once on Pokémon Stadium, but I had trouble replicating it.

 

[Purpletuce]

maybe it was because of one of the transformations was involved? I know the stage gets janky slopes on some of the tranformations. . . I haven't seen anything on PS though. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was during the rock transformation or something.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Hello Yoshi boards, newer player here.
Wanted to try and pick up Yoshi because he seems like a fun and awesome character. I can do basic stuff such as l-cancelling, wavedashing and wavelanding, DJC'ing etc. Any suggestions of what I should try and practice? Also would it be better to learn parrying now, or once I start getting better?

 

[Kimimaru]

Hold off on parrying since it's more dependent on general player skill (Ex. reading your opponent). Since you're familiar with DJC, I'd work on your combo game and some Yoshi tech like ECEs.