Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Kimimaru]

Good stuff! Let us know when/where the videos are when they're up.

 

[Purpletuce]

Videos being uploaded now, my best game(vs. Iceman) is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSbG0jAHgU

When I watched it, I saw a lot of things I missed, that was interesting. Afterwards I felt like I was playing so well, but I still made some errors. . . made it was just nerves. more will be uploaded within the hour. Probably just me vs. the Falco, and maybe me vs. M2K.

 

[Kimimaru]

Nice! I see that you've improved your movement and follow up on combos better. Your style seems heavily defensive, like Angel's (quite the opposite of me and VMan). I'm interested in seeing more of your matches. Good job!

Side Note: I cringed a bit when the commentators said the Marth matchup was really bad for Yoshi, since that's not the case.

 

[aMSa]

Awesome! I can't wait to see how well you two do at EVO!

In the meantime, do any of you guys want to talk about anything specific (MUs, techniques, etc.)? aMSa, what are your thoughts on Yoshi as a whole?.

I think...Yoshi is a character which can't win stable if you guess what a person is thinking .
Yoshi has many inherent skills.
Example: Parrying ,DJC,ECEs,Edge Yoshi Bomber(it keeps invincibility,but it is hard) etc....

I keep in mind to use these skiils efficiently.
Especially,Egg Toss and ECEs,are very important skills for me.


Eggs make opponent hard to go back to a stage,so I practiced it.
Only ECEs at Event 50→http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6wETqklhhM
(Now,My record is1:21.72,how about playing this?:D)

Generally,Yoshi is a weak character,but I don't think so. There is some possibility of doing.

 

[Jackie]

Logan -

I just watched the matches. I see your improvement in spacing and consistency in shield dropping. Also had some nice ftilts in there. The shorthop dair was cute. Dashdance dash attack edgeguard was simple but efficient.

Here are the main things I think you should improve:
-Egg throws by the edge could be more precise. You didn't kill yourself with ECEs, which is great, but I'd practice more ECE precision with the eggs themselves and the timing with the edge release/second jump
-I still need to see more dashdancing! Practice foxtrotting back and forth. Here's a tip: when you dash, just smash flick the stick quickly and release it so it returns to the neutral position naturally without your thumb. This technique ensures your longest initial dash and minimizes the chance of you holding your dash too long and 'swerving' back. Hopefully you understand my description, I think it's something extremely useful. I use it as Marth/Falcon to land a lot of very precise pivot grabs. In Yoshi's case, it's good for evasion into a DJC nair.
-DJC nair! The short hop version, particularly. It's simple tech skill practice, just make sure you can get it as close you can to the ground very consistently. This is one of the most important things to get consistently on demand. I particularly like it to punish miss techs at low/mid percents when I can get a follow up. It's also great shield pressure, just make sure you cross your opponent up so you're behind their shield pressuring them. This is particularly useful versus Marth and Falcon, who have slow OoS options.

Main bad habit to cut: smashes at mid-low percents. It still seems to be a panic habit, but go for short hop DJC nairs/uairs in these situations.


Amsa: Practicing ECEs at Event 50 is a great training idea! If I ever have a Gamecube again I might have to try training with that.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, in that game I really sucked on the ledge, usually I get some ECE hits, or some rising N-air edgeguards, but I just didn't this game. . .

I work on my dashdance some, but it was only when I thought about it. . . usually I think I'm expecting my opponent to rush in, so I don't spend as much time dash dancing on utilizing platform mobility as I should. . .

I definitely agree on the smash attacks part. . . I noticed this weekend how well I do in any particular game is very strongly correlated to how often I throw out smash attacks. Whenever I don't feel 'on point' I end up throwing them around. . . I kept getting frustrated with that habit, esp. with throwing out D-smash on shield. . . I need to move that more toward F-tilt I'm pretty sure. F-tilt almost always works out better for me.

I'm still bad at pressuring shields, at the moment my 'pressure. is pretty basic.

After F-air on shield I usually jab or run away, I want to parry, but I never implement it.

Sometimes I'll try to read them jumping oos with an up-angle ftilt, which works out really well. I also think I should U-tilt more, it has a little more startup, but stays out longer and sets up for more things. . .

I tried to respond sometimes with movement against their shield, which made me feel cool. . .


Does anyone have any advice on how to implement pressure. I never think to go for djc nair pressure, or to parry. . . seems so counter-intuitive.

Edit:
Here is my pools game vs. Oreo(Falco), http://www.twitch.tv/zodiacsmash/b/414312437 @ 5:21:20

Friendly vs Okami (Shiek), then $5 MM against Iceman again

 

[Jackie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJw-EJL-POM you versus Sheik is up. It's funny watching this since I used to mentor Okami as well. Damn. I get around.
People will shield Yoshi in reaction to nairs and fairs. If you space/time it poorly, it's an easy shield grab for them. A full jump towards a grounded opponent will usually lead to them shielding if they don't counterattack instead. What I forgot to give you props on was your bair spacing. You don't spam it like you used to, and you're spacing it well to not get punished most of the time. You're landing behind their shield and they're whiffing grabs. You tend to punish with smash, which is good when they're high percent or by the edge. If they stay in shield or a low percent, go for that DJC nair pressure and react to their roll if you can.
The other common situation to keep an eye out for shields is when they get up and don't have a fast attack like shine to mash. So be aware of when you just barely missed a tech chase and they'll have time to get up and do something, or if they get up on a platform — that's the best time to just run/jump through them to pressure them from behind.

then surprise buttsecks​

 

[Kimimaru]

Main bad habit to cut: smashes at mid-low percents. It still seems to be a panic habit, but go for short hop DJC nairs/uairs in these situations.

If you're referring to spamming them, then yeah I agree. Otherwise, they can be good if you can use them to beat out an opponent's approach and put yourself in an advantageous position (offstage or forced tech).

 

[Purpletuce]

Wow, I didn't realize that was recorded. I think I did better overall in that set. I'm glad it was uploaded, gives me something to watch of me vs. Shiek, I need to learn that MU. . . I still had some kinks to work out though. . . cool. I really need to work on how much I throw out smashes. . . especially in a MU where not getting grabbed is so crucial.

I was talking about a way to condition punishing shields. Maybe it is a thing where I need to be able to better recognize I'm in a situation to punish a shield, or they are in a situation where they will shield.

 

[Kimimaru]

Against floatier characters I like to use Egg Lay if they shield excessively since grabs are easier to punish and don't lead into much on them. Also, U-smash is a great killing move against Sheik. I feel that Yoshi players don't utilize U-smash as much as they should. Then again, I'm a Smash 64 Mario main so I carry several ideas over from that game.

 

[Purpletuce]

I actually do you Usmash quite a bit, it beats her aerials pretty effectively, and isn't too hard to land. . . I also need to use it more against Puff/Peach, right now I don't have any reliable ways to kill them, or get them above me. What is a solid go-to for when your floaty opponent is at higher %?

 

[Kimimaru]

Egg Lay will get them above you, and U-smash or U-air will net you a stock. Well-thrown eggs will also pop them up.

Jigglypuff will be above you 95% of the time so you don't have to worry about getting Puff players in the air.

 

[MrHazuki]

I played with Nedech (DK) and Kikki (CF) and it was on stream. I'm pretty happy how it turned out. Nedech is far better than me, so I'm really glad I managed to win a few matches.

http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/415970227
My first match starts at 2:55:00. We are taking turns, playing two matches in a row. The one playing Sonic on the left side of the screen is Timpz, the owner of the stream.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hey Hazuki, I watched all your matches.. ^^

Very good stuff vs Falcon, and DK.. I love fighting both of those characters..

It appears you all were just doing friendlies.. so I won't do too much advice stuff..(unless you want) but all in all looks like you guys had a lot of fun.. ^^

Good matches man, your Yoshi is looking swell...

Doesn't it stink when you miss a shielddrop? like the worst feeling in the world no? haha keep up at it.. ^^

 

[MrHazuki]

Thanks a lot! They were all friendlies but I really try hard when playing Yoshi, every match, every second. I haven't dared more than one real tournament set yet (which I lost), but I consider him my most ambitious char at the moment and I will use him again.

My shielddrops are a bit inconsistent, but I feel that I have incorporated them in my playstyle really well already. I need to warm up more next time. It's really nice to see Kikki, the CF use so much shielddrops. He is pretty much the only Falcon I've seen to do it as OoS-punish like Yoshi.

 

[Bones0]

Ok, so there's alot I wanna say, but I don't know exactly where to start... so I guess i'm going to start like this....

Went to an AZ tourney for the first time in nearly 2 years.. (i usually only go to nationals)... and I was the only player that had their entire bracket matches recorded... haha.. it was an honor but yeah weird.... I want to share alot of knowledge with the Yoshi forums on some new things/matchups... that I find useful etc.... I plan on doing a "timestamp" format similar with how I did with Purple's critique... but I am completely unsure... Besides that, here are the awesome matches that I had yesterday... In order of tourney/bracket(s)...

Winners Bracket...
vs Hawain (Falco) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eu9IOtswu8
vs Tai (Marth) *WQF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E6kEyBz0Jw4#t=242s
vs Wobbles (IC's/Doc) - *WSF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRQcXs_AY00

Losers Bracket...
vs Neon (Peach) *LQF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Nh3GRpEtE
vs Tai (Marth)) *LSF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYfSIgTxIl8
vs Axe (Pikachu) *LF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7gxZh27GYI <--- Yeah I know you've all seen these.. XD.. but hey it's Losers Finals

Leave comments and/or thoughts... and I guess I'll go with what the Yoshi community wants...

I have so many thoughts I wanna put, and things I wanna talk about, and secrets I wanna share... I just have no idea where to start.. >.<

- If Falco up-Bs low, can you react in time with a WD off bair/nair/dair to gimp him? Also, I just thought of this so try it out next time a Falco wants to sweetspot. Stand by the ledge as far out as possible (either walk into teeter or roll into the ledge and unshield). As soon as his up-B is close enough to you, parry it and WD FF onto the ledge. I think the hitlag from his up-B might actually give you enough time to get to the ledge before him, and even if it doesn't, the really diabolical part about parrying his up-B is that the hitlag will potentially throw off his ledgehop timing and he will ledgestand/jump/roll/attack by accident. Other alternatives I have in mind are to shield facing the ledge as he up-Bs, shield DI off stage (Marth-killer style), then DJC back to the ledge to grab it before he can. Or if you wanna be pro-baller-elite-pwnage status, you can run towards the ledge, time it so you reach the ledge right when his up-B is close enough to you, parry it, have your parry ledgecancel as you slide off, then DJC to grab the ledge before he's even out of hitlag.

- When Wobbles CGed you as Sopo, you could have mashed out really easily since he pummeled 3 regrabs in a row. Under 30%, it's not even that hard to get out if they pummel at all. You basically just have to tap all of the buttons twice while rotating the stick in order to get out at that low of a percent (I put my thumb on A, Y, and X, and index/middle fingers on all 3 triggers).

- If Popo is recovering and Nana isn't at KO percent, I would just egg lay her to avoid any... shenanigans... >.>

- If you egg lay Popo, Nana will jump towards him!

- You should try dairing after jab resets instead of uairing.

- I noticed at one point in game 1 during your set vs. Neon, you tried to shield pressure with back to back nairs in front of his shield. I think when you are close enough, you should reverse your DJC so you hit with the back of your nair and land out of range of his grab. Obviously you can't jab mixup at this point, but jab mixups are kinda dangerous anyway. It also doubles as allowing you to cover rolls to the center.

- Is parrying FCed fairs difficult? The float really limits Peach's options (they almost always come down with a fair unless you roll behind her or force her to nair by jumping at her), and her fair has quite a bit of startup to react to so I feel like it'd be fairly consistent. Learning to crouch-PS turnips also wouldn't hurt. I found that quite easy with Marth, so it should be no prob for Yoshi, and then you can just WD forward out of the parry/PS into an ftilt/utilt depending on where Peach is after the turnip throw.

- Like I mentioned vs. Falco's recovery, I saw some opportunities vs. Marth where you could have just WDed off with a nair. Worst case scenario you trade with a weak side-B or up-B, or a fair that sends you back onto the stage. Either way, he's not making it back.

- I know I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but I still think you should add in more dairs during your juggles. It's painful to see you chain 3 uairs and get less damage than if you had simply daired after the first uair when you can still reach them with your FH, and that's not even considering the potential for comboing out of the dair. You did try it once in your second set vs. Tai, but he was way too high so that you had to DJ, so I think you could just try to continue the juggle at those points in a stock. Also look for opportunities where you can simply SH dair towards them. Dair has surprisingly good range in front so they will usually get mowed over by it trying to move at you or under you, and if they shield or just move backwards, you can always pull back on your aerial drift so you don't overcommit.

- Can you throw eggs near the ledge vs. Pikachu's recovery? I get that it's totally ambiguous as to whether he is going to angle down to the ledge, sideways to the stage, or up to the plat, but it seems like tossing an egg at the right spot could cover at least 2 of the options.

- I know it's hard, but you could have SDIed Axe's jab reset upwards at the end of game 1, especially because he hit you with 3 jabs so timing it wouldn't even be hard. Just something to keep in mind.

- If someone misses a tech and you use your DJ towards them, they will GUA to knock you off for the kill. I've seen it happen to you a few times. With Falco, I usually shine stall in the air to wait out the GUA, or even up-B so that I can hit them with it right as their GUA ends. With Yoshi, you could probably down-B above them to get that subtle stall and then immediately hit them in lag.

It was a pleasure watching your matches. I hope to see more in the near future. ^_^

 

[Purpletuce]

You can't really use Dair as an alternative to Uairs. Uairs are really good, chain well, build damage well and keep you in a good position. Dair shouldn't do as much damage as three uairs, because you shouldn't be in a position where you can hit with all the hits, and if your opponent ASDIs, it makes it so you can't, or it is really hard to follow up. Also, remember those percents I posted earlier are the minimum percents where you can follow up frame perfectly on an opponent who has chosen to not CC.

Parrying a Firefox/Firebird then grabbing the ledge sounds hilarious. . . but not useful. I you think they're going to a sweetspot, grab the ledge, if they're going slightly above the ledge, just Fsmash. . . I'm pretty sure the ledgecancel thing wouldn't work because Yoshi's parry stops momentum (watch Fumi's vids)

Throwing eggs destroys pikachu's recovery, because pikachu's hurtbox expands and contracts when he does the upB, you can cover a ton of options super easily. Unfortunately, doing an ECE risks them dodging the egg and grabbing the ledge (killing you), and standing on the stage and doing it is so laggy, that if you connect, all you'll be able to do is try for more eggs (they'll already be recovering again, so you don't have time to position well). It is a good way to build percent if the opportunity arises, but in my experience you forfeit an attempt at the ledgeguard.

Are you talking about WD off the stage into an instant aerial? Do you mean trading with them? Bair and Nair take so long that if you don't trade you'll need your whole jump to make it back, and it would be easy for them to edgeguard you if they made it back. Dair takes so long that you're dead unless you trade.

 

[Kimimaru]

I finally got enough free time to post my full thoughts on the Samus MU:

To start off, Samus' movement heavily incorporates wavedashing, so make sure you know how far she can go with hers. At lower percents most good Samus players will throw projectiles at you and wavedash back then CC D-smash an aerial you throw at them. There are several ways to deal with this situation:

1. Parry/powershield her projectiles and slowly make your way in
2. If you're on a stage with platforms, go high if she's low to avoid the projectiles and force her to go high (this is the position you want her in; above you)
3. If you are near her, you can bring her towards you with an Egg Lay, which will nullify her CC
4. Match her projectiles with yours (eggs)

(Note that these aren't all of the ways to deal with this situation)

You'll want to simply rack up damage until she is at about 50%, which is where she won't be able to CC your N-air and other moves.

At this stage you want to keep knocking her offstage to either go for a gimp (unlikely, but possible) or rack up enough damage for a kill. Another option is to keep yourself in a positional advantage under her so it's hard for her to do much against you. Since she can't CC your attacks, a DJC U-air is safe and will knock her up and even combo a few times, allowing you to throw eggs under her or hit her with more U-airs.

In my experience, Yoshi's best finishers against Samus on non-Dreamland stages were vertical KO moves. Yoshi Bomb is by far Yoshi's best move for killing Samus, and U-smash works well too. U-air works but only at really high percents because Samus is a very heavy character. On Dreamland, D-smash is your best option unless she's at a ridiculously high percent, in which case about everything will kill her.

Samus also has some tricks against Yoshi that you should be aware of. At mid-high percents, D-throw -> N-air is guaranteed on Yoshi, so space your attacks well so she can't grab you, and don't underestimate the range and duration of her grab. To edgeguard, she'll use missiles (both normal and super), U-tilt, Charge Shot, and F-smash. Well-performed ECEs will keep her away from the edge, but don't underestimate the range of her U-tilt or you'll probably lose a stock. You want to trick her with your movement and recover high in most cases.

To edgeguard her, ECEs are the best option. Samus players always recover low from far, so when she's about to use her Grapple Beam to latch onto the edge, fall from the edge and prepare to absorb the attack so you can hit her back out with a N-air when she comes up. If you think she'll just hang there at the bottom of her Grapple Beam, throw an egg to force her to use her Screw Attack and hit her back out/kill her/edgehog when that happens.

Overall, you have to be very patient to win this MU since you'll rarely find a good Samus player that will just rush in and attack you. Spacing is crucial because if you're not getting the hit, she will.

 

[Purpletuce]

I go about it similarly, I also think it is worth noting to try to egg her when she is recovering from afar to rack up percent easy, and possibly make her lose her grapple. One thing I try for often at low %s is the F-air, it always beats any CCer, and you can almost always get something good from it. In my experience I mainly go for U-airs and some U-smashes to make a kill, and try to edgeguard when appropriate, with N-air and D-smash. (punishing landings onto the stage mostly)

 

[Bones0]

You can't really use Dair as an alternative to Uairs. Uairs are really good, chain well, build damage well and keep you in a good position. Dair shouldn't do as much damage as three uairs, because you shouldn't be in a position where you can hit with all the hits, and if your opponent ASDIs, it makes it so you can't, or it is really hard to follow up. Also, remember those percents I posted earlier are the minimum percents where you can follow up frame perfectly on an opponent who has chosen to not CC.

Parrying a Firefox/Firebird then grabbing the ledge sounds hilarious. . . but not useful. I you think they're going to a sweetspot, grab the ledge, if they're going slightly above the ledge, just Fsmash. . . I'm pretty sure the ledgecancel thing wouldn't work because Yoshi's parry stops momentum (watch Fumi's vids)

Throwing eggs destroys pikachu's recovery, because pikachu's hurtbox expands and contracts when he does the upB, you can cover a ton of options super easily. Unfortunately, doing an ECE risks them dodging the egg and grabbing the ledge (killing you), and standing on the stage and doing it is so laggy, that if you connect, all you'll be able to do is try for more eggs (they'll already be recovering again, so you don't have time to position well). It is a good way to build percent if the opportunity arises, but in my experience you forfeit an attempt at the ledgeguard.

Are you talking about WD off the stage into an instant aerial? Do you mean trading with them? Bair and Nair take so long that if you don't trade you'll need your whole jump to make it back, and it would be easy for them to edgeguard you if they made it back. Dair takes so long that you're dead unless you trade.

1. I mean... I've done it so it's definitely possible. lol As a simple example, if you DJC uair low to the ground and hit a Marth at 50%, you can combo it into a FH dair and end up doing 57% total. That's just over 4 uairs which you would never have gotten on a Marth that's already at 50%. You can also then combo from the dair with various stuff (dealing 50%+ and comboing into a dsmash is ridiculously awesome lol).

2. You can grab the ledge if you think they will sweetspot, but if you guessed wrong Yoshi has a rough time edgeguarding the spacie landing on stage because of his slow DJ. Yoshi's shield affects his momentum the same as the rest of the cast. If he shields during his dash animation his momentum stops completely, but if you are walking, running, wavedashing, or even moonwalking, you retain your momentum allowing you to parry (or even shield regularly if you so desired) just before sliding onto the ledge. You should actually take a minute to check stuff before you dismiss it...

3. Okay, that sounds about right.

4. Yeah, WD off (or run off if you aren't setup I guess). Bair is probably the best, but if they are at a high enough % where nair will KO, then you can do that as well. It shouldn't really matter if you trade or not, but I would only use it when it's guaranteed to work. If most characters get in the dropzone below the ledge, you should definitely be able to react to that and slide off with an aerial to cover all of their options, and as long as they are far enough from the ledge or at a high enough percent, you can tell beforehand whether or not you will make it back before them (or if they can make it back at all).

 

[Purpletuce]

I guess I'll have to disagree(about dair) still, but I don't think it is productive to keep going back and forth about it.

From that list, I's day WD parry edgecancel (to beat spacie UpB) would probably be easiest, and that still sounds like precise spacing and timing. If you ever pull it off in a match on stream, I'd love to see it. Sounds super hype and hilarious.

I've only messed around slightly with runoff (or WD) off aerials, and I really only use N-air (B-air doesn't seem to have a trajectory that is too good for this kind of thing, risks me getting hit while I'm down there, or doesn't knock them far enough to do the job), although I think I usually liked SH N-air then fast fall on the late frames so it still cover some area, and can FF at various times to fit the situation, without being afraid of being too low.

 

[Jackie]

Full jump autocancel nair is underrated. It doesn't linger as long as Link's, but weak nair is a good first hit to start momentum.

I'll be training with Vman tonight and we'll stream, so if there are any Yoshi matchups you're struggling versus, I'll use that character versus him. Just let us know.

 

[Shiri]

I finally got enough free time to post my full thoughts on the Samus MU:

I don't mean to butt in, but I just kinda had to post something because I really don't agree with some of your thoughts about this matchup.

Full disclosure: this matchup is probably the one I have the most experience in second only to Sheik. I don't know how these new cats play Samus (you'd be surprised at how playstyles change and get better or even worse over time), so I don't know if my approach to the matchup is really outdated or not. If their approach is anything intelligent, though, then most of this stuff should still hold water. Just putting that out there.

The first part of your analysis talks a lot about anti-CC tactics to force Samus to stop CCing your aerials. I really agree with pointing out that CC against Yoshi aerials is a weakness of the matchup, especially at low percents. I don't agree, however, with prioritizing ways to stop her CC just so you can toss more aerials out. I think this has to be a ground-based matchup for Yoshi. Yoshi leaving the ground really puts him at risk in this matchup at virtually any percent that matters and even though Yoshi loses to Samus on the ground, he loses worse to her when he attacks her aerially while she's grounded and he loses absolutely when they're both in the air. This matchup is all about cutting your losses where you can and whittling away at Samus the entire time.

Another thing you have to remember is that CCing aerials stops near 50%, but CC of your other moves doesn't, especially the important moves for making progress in the matchup. In terms of stopping CC, your ideas are mostly solid. Working your way in slowly is risky against Samus because the nature of her defense is that it gets more solid and more complicated the closer you get to her; getting to her slowly just makes this uphill climb a vertical trek without any gear to help you. The longer you take at any distance, the more you're allowing her to set up and put things on the screen that you have to deal with and where she can commit to actions without too much risk. I think a key to getting in on Samus is making your way in efficiently; move in behind eggs or powershielded missiles, but do that on the ground where you're less vulnerable and make sure you move in quickly. You really want to make her have to commit to a defensive action once you start closing in; you're on the offense and you have to make her guess. This is the best you're going to get (a guess) since she can't cover all your options at once and you can't cover all her options at once, but if you can make her commit to something when the risk is higher for her, you have a much greater chance to successfully start scoring some damage and seeing what the Samus player does in a decision-making situation.

Regarding approaches and projectiles, as a final note, Samus will always have a shot charged in this matchup--there is simply too much time for her to not employ charging shots. Powershielding missiles and tossing eggs carries risk when moving in on her if you do not always assume that she can let loose at any time. If my memory serves me correctly, you can reverse DJC neutral air fully charged shots if you have to in an emergency, but I don't need to explain how much of a coin flip that is if you're not extremely proficient at it.

Your opinions regarding progression once 50% is reached seems a little too...optimistic for me, I suppose. 50% is just the barrier for stopping CC of forward air and instant neutral air. I'm not sure when exactly you're going to be using DJC up airs on Samus when she's grounded, but 50% does stop those as well (I'm REALLY not sure when you'd use this). Yoshi's best tools in this matchup are jab, down tilt, forward tilt and Egg Lay. Dash attack has some very important, but extremely limited, applications in this matchup, as do downsmash and upsmash. To me, CC is the least of Yoshi's worries in this matchup, albeit a big one (just to put the matchup in perspective). The real fight is how to reliably score damage without opening yourself up to more damage than you would have dished out.

You mention knocking Samus offstage very casually like that's a thing that Yoshi regularly can do in the matchup; unless Samus players have gotten exponentially worse, this is easily the hardest part of the matchup for Yoshi. Samus doesn't care if she can't CC your attacks to be honest. Whenever I played CC characters, I would only CC out of spite; CCing involves taking damage to retaliate which is the worst kind of counterattack. Samus has the speed, mobility and angles to move and counterattack without having to CC and eat damage. CCing just makes her job easier. In truth, you've made the matchup much harder for yourself once you've pushed Samus past her initial CC phase (50%). You can just down air her to rack up 54% right off the bat and eat the no-followup downsmash for 20-something and make it a good trade, but after that, the matchup gets much more serious.

An area where I completely disagree is how to KO Samus. This is mostly a subjective area, though, because different players have different recovery styles and different KO styles and different regions play different stages, all of which factor in to this area. I think that, universally, Yoshi has an easier time KOing off the side of the stage simply because you're removing Samus' options. This is one of the few times Yoshi can dictate how the match moves forward and one of the few times where he can really take the momentum of the game, even if only for a moment. Knocking Samus offstage horizontally means that she has extremely limited options and it's your job from there to remove the few she has left and punish the ones she commits to. Even her basic bomb recovery is completely shut down by proper egg control; sniping bombs is extremely easy and one of your few opportunities to actually have fun, so you should practice this if you're not proficient at it. Sniping bomb recoveries saves lives. When you attempt to KO Samus vertically, you're doing two things; you're giving her options and you're giving her time. Yoshi has very little to say about Samus being positioned above him outside of a few moves and if Samus is smart about coming down, she can always force a trade even though it might not always be in her favor. At the very least, she can react to Yoshi's movements and attacks from below; even if she cannot counterattack (which is the number two leading cause of death in this matchup), she has options to greatly reduce risk and land safely. Once she lands, you can consider the whole situations a loss (not a wash) because Samus at neutral again is a losing situation for Yoshi and you've effectively blown what advantage you had.

Regarding KO moves, just in case it wasn't interpreted properly from Bringer's guide and from Project Y.O.S.H.I., weight only marginally affects vertical knockback. A character's weight primarily affects their horizontal knockback while a character's fall speed affects their vertical knockback. One move KOing at higher percents doesn't KO later than other moves because the victim is heavy, that move KOs later than other moves because that move is simply weaker than the other options if everything else is constant. Samus has a floaty jump, but actually has a decent fall speed coupled with some serious weight (which, again, only factors in here marginally), so vertical KOs do work, but are extremely inconsistent given what tools you have to vertically KO with. Up air ties with her neutral air and you will get approximately 0 chances to use upsmash in a non-screwed up situation. Upsmash is a strong move to use, however, and since you won't be using it often, you can count on it being fresh when you do (if you ever) get a chance to use it.

When it comes to edgeguarding, Samus has extremely varied and strong options against Yoshi. If you've made it back to the stage, Samus either screwed up, you're miles better than the other player or a miracle has just taken place right before your eyes. Moves Samus will regularly use are up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, forward smash, downsmash, falling neutral air and falling up air. Missiles are par for the course, but they're mostly there to serve as obstacles to your recovery and not meant to stuff your recovery itself. Missiles are meant to create a path that you essentially have to take if you want to live so that Samus can condition where you're moving in order for her to capitalize and KO you. Samus does not use normal missiles unless she sees that Yoshi will go out of his way to avoid them (when there is really no need to), in which case most of her work is being done for her by a non-committal move that homes in on you. Do not fear the normal missile. What you should fear are her tilts and her aerials. While up tilt is clearly the star of Samus' edgeguarding team, forward tilt is truly the MVP. Up tilt has tons of range, knockback and raw damage, but lacks speed and flexibility. It's a committal move that Yoshi might not be able to completely avoid, but is telegraphed and provides Yoshi with information ahead of time to prepare himself. Forward tilt is really the more consistent option for Samus with its different angles, better speed, and lower trajectory in knockback. Smashes are what they are; you already know. Aerials is where Samus edgeguards get really gay. Without the restrictions of needing to be on the ground, Samus can dump risk free tilt-like power in the air however she pleases. Neutral air, which is essentially the bane of Yoshi's existence (next to forward tilt), is your mobile version of forward tilt and it's probably better; it lasts longer, does more damage and is more controlled. Back air is technically your moving up tilt, but since it takes a bit to set up, I don't consider it a practical go-to move for Samus to use in her edgeguarding. Up air gets mentioned because she can follow you with the drill as you recover; as long as she tags you with the last hit, she will be putting out DJ breaking knockback to stuff your recovery in angles that you might otherwise consider yourself safe.

I'm going to assume you meant using regular eggs when edgeugarding Samus (ECE seems way too risky for virtually no reward). I already touched on edgeguarding her, so I won't go into that again, but I will say that while it is tempting to jump out after her, Yoshi should really not be leaving the stage to combat Samus. Eggs should be doing your work for you, so unless you've successfully gotten Samus to the point where you've forced her to commit to something early and you can safely leave the stage to intercept a critical bomb that your eggs won't reach in time or to go force an aerial trade that will end in Samus getting KO'd, Yoshi should NOT be leaving the ground.

The important thing to remember is that, no matter what you think of Yoshi as a character, he does not have options in this matchup. Once you realize that, you can start to pare down tactics that don't help or leave you at risk. Most situations in this matchup are losing situations for Yoshi, so you have to intelligently maneuver your way through bad spots and try to force your advantage whenever you can and make the most of it. You have to be patient, another sentiment I agree with you on. This matchup is all about whittling Samus down while removing as much risk from yourself as possible. You have to try to force her to commit, even when she technically has the advantage and either score trades, outwit her and grab raw damage or at least use aerials to punish since that what you should be using aerials for in this matchup.

 

[Purpletuce]

Some of that stuff seems off to be honest, but I agree with others. I personally kill both off of the top and off the sides. U-air is reliable if you get her far above you, and also if she is above you she usually can either land with an attack, DJ, air dodge, or UpB. you really only have to guess if she'll land or not, because a Usmash when she tries to land will beat anything she goes for (probably N-air), and you can react to everything else, her DJ puts her in the same situation without a DJ, so you can simply Usmash (if you waited before), and you can D-smash her landing if she airdodges, and she can't hit you with an UpB unless she falls into the U-smash.

Her Ftilt is only useful if you've lost your jump, or are at really high %s. It isn't even an issue when I play, I just never allow myself to be in that position. At the %s where you have to deal with it (it can break your jump), I figure I'm doomed anyway.

One good way to get her above CC % that I forgot is to D-tilt her offstage, then rack up % with eggs, maybe sh Nair if she bombs too close.

At above 50% isn't a bad time for Yoshi, whenever you hit her with anything, you put her in a bad position, and can punish her for trying to return to neutral. Stay under her or edgeguard her.

I think he was implying using ECEs to maintain ledge invulnerability, and to cover the area behind and below you. This would only really be useful if they were trying to recover low. All of her recovery options lose to this except a well timed upB, which can be naired if you use your invincibility properly. If she moves in too fast, she will get hit by an egg, popping her up for a N-air anyway. Also, if you think she'll do a premature UpB, you can wait on stage to punish it going to high, or refresh invul. for a ledgehog.

 

[MrHazuki]

I have found that aMSa uploads new sets very often. I'm having a blast watching them.

 

[Kimimaru]

Thanks for your thoughts, Shiri! Unfortunately, I have to disagree with several things you've said.

The important thing to remember is that, no matter what you think of Yoshi as a character, he does not have options in this matchup.

I disagree with this statement the most. If Yoshi really didn't have any options, then Samus would be his worst matchup by far, which it isn't. I've played against Darrell, one of the top Samus players, and had a close tournament set. I've also played against Violence, another good Samus, who actually has a lot of Yoshi experience, and our matches are always close and I have very little Samus experience. Yoshi does indeed have options that can help him win the MU.

The first part of your analysis talks a lot about anti-CC tactics to force Samus to stop CCing your aerials. I really agree with pointing out that CC against Yoshi aerials is a weakness of the matchup, especially at low percents. I don't agree, however, with prioritizing ways to stop her CC just so you can toss more aerials out. I think this has to be a ground-based matchup for Yoshi. Yoshi leaving the ground really puts him at risk in this matchup at virtually any percent that matters and even though Yoshi loses to Samus on the ground, he loses worse to her when he attacks her aerially while she's grounded and he loses absolutely when they're both in the air. This matchup is all about cutting your losses where you can and whittling away at Samus the entire time.

Although I generally stay in the air a lot with every character I play since it's part of my playstyle (even in the other Smash games), I don't believe I mentioned to stop her CC just so you can throw more aerials out. I mentioned it because being able to use aerials against her gives you more options in the MU. If you take away the CC, she can't get free punishes on most of your aerials anymore, allowing you to approach and attack her in many more ways. She can definitely counter Yoshi's aerial game, but that also holds true for any player who doesn't approach intelligently.

You also didn't mention the fact that Yoshi clearly has the advantage when he's on the ground and Samus is in the air. Literally nothing she has can beat U-smash straight up, and you can control where she goes with eggs. If she does make it back onto the stage via a platform, she's still above you, thus still giving you the advantage.

Another thing you have to remember is that CCing aerials stops near 50%, but CC of your other moves doesn't, especially the important moves for making progress in the matchup. In terms of stopping CC, your ideas are mostly solid. Working your way in slowly is risky against Samus because the nature of her defense is that it gets more solid and more complicated the closer you get to her; getting to her slowly just makes this uphill climb a vertical trek without any gear to help you. The longer you take at any distance, the more you're allowing her to set up and put things on the screen that you have to deal with and where she can commit to actions without too much risk. I think a key to getting in on Samus is making your way in efficiently; move in behind eggs or powershielded missiles, but do that on the ground where you're less vulnerable and make sure you move in quickly. You really want to make her have to commit to a defensive action once you start closing in; you're on the offense and you have to make her guess. This is the best you're going to get (a guess) since she can't cover all your options at once and you can't cover all her options at once, but if you can make her commit to something when the risk is higher for her, you have a much greater chance to successfully start scoring some damage and seeing what the Samus player does in a decision-making situation.

I agree with your view on approaching Samus efficiently. The 50% I mentioned is actually too generous; it's more around 70% where she can't CC most of your attacks. Yoshi's ground moves are pretty strong, except for jab, U-tilt, and D-tilt, so her CC should break for those too.

Regarding approaches and projectiles, as a final note, Samus will always have a shot charged in this matchup--there is simply too much time for her to not employ charging shots. Powershielding missiles and tossing eggs carries risk when moving in on her if you do not always assume that she can let loose at any time. If my memory serves me correctly, you can reverse DJC neutral air fully charged shots if you have to in an emergency, but I don't need to explain how much of a coin flip that is if you're not extremely proficient at it.

In an emergency, parrying a charge shot is much better since it comes out on frame 1. Other times you will most likely be able to air dodge it if she's far away. Absorbing it with your superarmor should be used as a last resort if you're in the air and can't afford to let her punish your air dodge.

You mention knocking Samus offstage very casually like that's a thing that Yoshi regularly can do in the matchup; unless Samus players have gotten exponentially worse, this is easily the hardest part of the matchup for Yoshi. Samus doesn't care if she can't CC your attacks to be honest. Whenever I played CC characters, I would only CC out of spite; CCing involves taking damage to retaliate which is the worst kind of counterattack. Samus has the speed, mobility and angles to move and counterattack without having to CC and eat damage. CCing just makes her job easier. In truth, you've made the matchup much harder for yourself once you've pushed Samus past her initial CC phase (50%). You can just down air her to rack up 54% right off the bat and eat the no-followup downsmash for 20-something and make it a good trade, but after that, the matchup gets much more serious.

I was giving general tips regarding what you should aim for. Against good players in Melee, everything you try to do will be hard. To be honest, I'm not sure how the matchup gets more difficult when you take away one of her tools against you. If anything, it gets easier because she loses a defensive option.

An area where I completely disagree is how to KO Samus. This is mostly a subjective area, though, because different players have different recovery styles and different KO styles and different regions play different stages, all of which factor in to this area. I think that, universally, Yoshi has an easier time KOing off the side of the stage simply because you're removing Samus' options. This is one of the few times Yoshi can dictate how the match moves forward and one of the few times where he can really take the momentum of the game, even if only for a moment. Knocking Samus offstage horizontally means that she has extremely limited options and it's your job from there to remove the few she has left and punish the ones she commits to. Even her basic bomb recovery is completely shut down by proper egg control; sniping bombs is extremely easy and one of your few opportunities to actually have fun, so you should practice this if you're not proficient at it. Sniping bomb recoveries saves lives. When you attempt to KO Samus vertically, you're doing two things; you're giving her options and you're giving her time. Yoshi has very little to say about Samus being positioned above him outside of a few moves and if Samus is smart about coming down, she can always force a trade even though it might not always be in her favor. At the very least, she can react to Yoshi's movements and attacks from below; even if she cannot counterattack (which is the number two leading cause of death in this matchup), she has options to greatly reduce risk and land safely. Once she lands, you can consider the whole situations a loss (not a wash) because Samus at neutral again is a losing situation for Yoshi and you've effectively blown what advantage you had.

Sorry for not being clear; when I was referring to KOing Samus vertically, I implied that you should do it when she is at kill percent. If she's not, then of course you wouldn't try to kill her vertically. I agree with limiting her options by knocking her vertically. However, I completely disagree with Yoshi having few options against Samus when she's above him. She can react, but if Yoshi doesn't do anything then she's still falling while above him; it's not like she can stay in the air forever. Yoshi also moves much faster in the air than Samus so he can chase her down if need be, not to mention he can waveland on platforms to catch up. Yoshi's U-air, U-smash, and eggs all help condition Samus on where to land so she doesn't get hurt, which put the situation in Yoshi's favor. Samus can't really do much aside from bomb jump and attempt a laggy D-air or maybe a N-air (which can again be beaten by U-smash or trade with U-air if she commits to it).

Regarding KO moves, just in case it wasn't interpreted properly from Bringer's guide and from Project Y.O.S.H.I., weight only marginally affects vertical knockback. A character's weight primarily affects their horizontal knockback while a character's fall speed affects their vertical knockback. One move KOing at higher percents doesn't KO later than other moves because the victim is heavy, that move KOs later than other moves because that move is simply weaker than the other options if everything else is constant. Samus has a floaty jump, but actually has a decent fall speed coupled with some serious weight (which, again, only factors in here marginally), so vertical KOs do work, but are extremely inconsistent given what tools you have to vertically KO with.

When writing that post I was thinking of KOing her vertically on Dreamland, which is a chore. I knew that fall speed in Melee affects vertical knockback more, considering it's the thing I dislike most about Melee compared to the other Smash games (along with maintaining edge invincibility after getting off, the fake "crouch" canceling that Melee has, and the fact that rolling on the edge is considered as grabbing it).

Up air ties with her neutral air and you will get approximately 0 chances to use upsmash in a non-screwed up situation. Upsmash is a strong move to use, however, and since you won't be using it often, you can count on it being fresh when you do (if you ever) get a chance to use it.

I disagree with this. U-smash is actually a safe move if used properly, especially since Yoshi's entire head is invincible for the entire duration of the hitbox and a little longer. Most of the kills I got on Samus players were with U-smash.

When it comes to edgeguarding, Samus has extremely varied and strong options against Yoshi. If you've made it back to the stage, Samus either screwed up, you're miles better than the other player or a miracle has just taken place right before your eyes.

Yoshi has superarmor which prevents Samus from edgeguarding him at low-mid percents. If Yoshi recovers high, Samus can cover only one option, and whichever one she chooses, Yoshi can take the other one. For example, if she wants to cover the high option Yoshi takes, he can Yoshi Bomb safely to the edge and she won't be able to catch him in time.

Aerials is where Samus edgeguards get really gay. Without the restrictions of needing to be on the ground, Samus can dump risk free tilt-like power in the air however she pleases. Neutral air, which is essentially the bane of Yoshi's existence (next to forward tilt), is your mobile version of forward tilt and it's probably better; it lasts longer, does more damage and is more controlled. Back air is technically your moving up tilt, but since it takes a bit to set up, I don't consider it a practical go-to move for Samus to use in her edgeguarding. Up air gets mentioned because she can follow you with the drill as you recover; as long as she tags you with the last hit, she will be putting out DJ breaking knockback to stuff your recovery in angles that you might otherwise consider yourself safe.

I partially disagree with this as well. Yoshi can eat one of her aerials with his superarmor and counterattack. Her forward tilt has good range but it doesn't have nearly as much knockback as most of her other moves, making it less reliable when breaking Yoshi's superarmor. Her B-air isn't as reliable either since Yoshi can react to it much easier.

I'm going to assume you meant using regular eggs when edgeugarding Samus (ECE seems way too risky for virtually no reward). I already touched on edgeguarding her, so I won't go into that again, but I will say that while it is tempting to jump out after her, Yoshi should really not be leaving the stage to combat Samus. Eggs should be doing your work for you, so unless you've successfully gotten Samus to the point where you've forced her to commit to something early and you can safely leave the stage to intercept a critical bomb that your eggs won't reach in time or to go force an aerial trade that will end in Samus getting KO'd, Yoshi should NOT be leaving the ground.

I disagree. How do ECEs not provide a reward? They allow you to throw many more eggs in much less time and cover her recovery from below, leaving her with fewer options. They also allow you to hog the edge and refresh your invincibility. Using normal eggs leaves the edge free for her to take and makes it much less likely to hit her with one of your projectiles. Remember that Samus has some lag after grappling to an edge that is already occupied. Trying to go out and hit her with an aerial isn't recommended in all scenarios, but a well-placed backwards N-air can intercept it and make it harder for her to recover.

Again, thanks for your thoughts on this MU. The Yoshi boards really need more in-depth discussions like this!

 

[Purpletuce]

So, ive been working on dash dance and pivots with yoshi. Any practice routines you guys like for dash dances? Also, I think yoshi has a great tool against puff with his pivot u smash. If you pivot it you can come in with the low hitbox, and beat/trade with aerials or hit grounded puff.

Also, I didn't get the awesome job I applied for, so I might not be able to go to tourneys this summer. Back to farm land for me.

 

[Kimimaru]

I suppose you can get a feel for how long Yoshi's DD range is and vary the speeds and lengths.

 

[Purpletuce]

So, I ran a tourney today and did terrible in bracket (7th, again.) However, I was bizarrely doing really well against fastfallers, who I usually struggle with (but my games in bracket were against floaties). I had a really close MM with the person who got 2nd(Fox), and I beat the person who got 3rd in a MM (Who is also the Falco I've been struggling with so hard). I felt like that was a good thing, passing a mental block I guess. I still have yet to do super well in a tournament, but it'll happen. . . :D

Also, DD helped a ton against spacies. It was super useful to mixup DD with aerial movement. . . lots of fun. At one point I slowly pushed back a Mario across a third of FD using only DD, then he panicked and shot a fireball, and I dash attacked, felt like my DD practice had instant results.

I took 7 stocks in the crew battle, one of them was Eggz's, which was cool. (Eggz took 8, so I took the second most, which was exciting).

Yoshi is fun.

 

[MrHazuki]

Good job!

 

[Purpletuce]

Also, no videos. Sorry. . .

 

[MrHazuki]

Watched Vman vs. Smurfy today. Well played. The most fun was hearing Vman get angry all the time. Don't know how many times heard him yell "**** you!" :D

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hahaha... yeah that's funny usually smurfy is always the one that's yelling...haha.. but no I wasn't actually flustered or frustrated... just amazed at how fast smurfy is improving... I'm actually the last person you hear complain about smash... never realize how annoying link could be to fight as Yoshi... but all in all it's fun..

also thank you for watching Evo is in two weeks anyone else going?

 

[aMSa]

EVO 2013 TOURNAMENT BRACKETS
http://evo2013.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/index.html
aMSa→B64
V3ctorman→E64
Angel→A60

Maybe,If I won,I might play with 'Fly amanita','stricnyn3','cort'.
It's hard to win through...but I do my best! :D

 

[V3ctorMan]

aMSa, your pool and wobbles pool are VERY likely to be changed... if not... then well, you have a VERY tough pool.. I wish you the best of luck... Angel, and Axe are in the same pool too... and they're both from AZ..

As for me, I have Hugs.. (Hugs got 2nd place at Evo) >.>; and his brother "Gabe" I believe, is/was A VERY good Yoshi/one of/if not the best Yoshi back in the earlier days.... I'm hyped/nervous.. ><

 

[aMSa]

Vman! My pool was changed!! wowowow

Before　B64-C
after E62-D

why...?
In B64 members, it was changed just me,and....lucky for me?

Hugs got 2nd place!? oh,that's too bad,Vman...><
Good luck.

I watched Gabe's Yoshi. good red one:D

 

[Medz!]

I'm in b64 we won't get to play now amsa, let's get some games in

 

[V3ctorMan]

yeah I don't think many of the yoshi players recall/remember Gabe's Yoshi, but I could be wrong... Hugs brother... yeah my pool was changed also.. I now Have KEN IN my pool also... so I have the winner of EVO 2007, and it's runner up Hugs.. haha.. im hype

 

[Mind Trick]

Gabe, that's a name from like the DC++ era haha

You seem to have a pretty good bracket amsa, only names I recognise are Navn and Smash Mac and I think they should both be definitely winnable for you
Vman, you're probably winning your bracket if you can take Hugs lol
Angel mannnn tough break, you probably got one of the toughest brackets, but I guess it might still change

Good luck everyone, I'll be watching the stream

 

[DstyCube]

yeah I don't think many of the yoshi players recall/remember Gabe's Yoshi, but I could be wrong... Hugs brother... yeah my pool was changed also.. I now Have KEN IN my pool also... so I have the winner of EVO 2007, and it's runner up Hugs.. haha.. im hype

As a longtime Yoshi player I definitely remember Gabe

Crawling out of the woodworks – C61!