Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Purpletuce]

Ganon sucks in theory, and ideally you should be able to get huge DJC U-air strings and kill him most of the time you get him off stage, although it isn't that simple. Ganon tends to wiggle out of 'sure things' and do better than you would think. I don't think the MU is that bad though.

So Saturday I ran a tournament. Got 3rd in teams and 7th (again) in singles. I felt like I learned qite a bit about some MUs. I was sent to losers by a really good shiek, then had a super close game against a Falcon in losers(also on PR). I beat a Doc who played super campy, so you can see how I play against him, Kimi, maybe see a new perspective on the MU. (It will be super boring to watch though, he pill spammed me for over 6 minutes. . .)

Got several games/sets recorded. I think my first 0-death on stream happened. . .

Some thoughts in general:

I have been playing more aggressive lately, which is actually helping me out a ton vs. fastfallers. I'm not giving them time to go on the aggressive, which is probably why it is helping. I'm also trying to commit to D-smash less. In my set against the Falcon I kept getting kneed for D-smashing game 1 and got wrecked. Game 2 and 3 were super close when I started using F-tilt more.

I tried focusing on keeping my movement strong and not letting my opponents slow me down (most notable in MUs where I have a maneuverability advantage). It was amazing useful to take to the platforms with super Yoshi speed.

Against campy Doc I took the top platform and tried to catch him coming up. If I didn't think he was ready to come up, occasionally I would put an egg around him. This made the MU really hit-and-run oriented. B-air, and DJC N-air were the main ways I got in on him. I also did a few U-smash/F-smash to work on kills.

Shiek was a new MU for me, and I played against a player who had no problem 0-death CGing me. We agreed to random game 1 and went to DL, which was pretty bad. Because of the high side platforms, the only way to survive a grab was to DI off the side or hope he messed up, so I usually died form a grab at 0%. Game 2 he banned YS, so I went fountain (I figured the platforms would save me easier, and the narrow stage would make me stranded less often.) I was right on the stage, it helped a ton, I managed to get us both to mid% last stock, then tried to rack up % with ECE and died. . . ECE sucks in this MU because needles will clip your nose and kill you. Platforms helped a ton, and trying to keep her away was the main goal, F-smash and D-tilt/F-tilt were my main tools (too easy for aerials to be shield grabbed). F-smash is probably the best to edgeguard her with, although I still messed up a few times. . .

I'm doing quite a bit better vs. Falco, although still losing :[

I might add more later. (thoughts videos or both)

 

[Jackie]

Ganon is a tricky character to play against. Everyone knows how bad he should be, but if you're not ready to play a talented Ganon, you'll get wrecked before you know what happened. It's nice to not be shield poked as Yoshi, but his grab game is excellent. IMO dash dance spacing and DJC nair/uair consistency are the most important things for this match-up. Ganon's one of those characters you can just jump out and nair to edgeguard.

Sheik only CGs up to a certain percent until you can DJC nair. The match-up isn't really as bad as you'd think unless they space bair really well and play very patiently. You can land massive combos versus Sheik, which is one of the biggest perks of fighting midweight characters.

 

[Kimimaru]

Shiek was a new MU for me, and I played against a player who had no problem 0-death CGing me. We agreed to random game 1 and went to DL, which was pretty bad. Because of the high side platforms, the only way to survive a grab was to DI off the side or hope he messed up, so I usually died form a grab at 0%. Game 2 he banned YS, so I went fountain (I figured the platforms would save me easier, and the narrow stage would make me stranded less often.) I was right on the stage, it helped a ton, I managed to get us both to mid% last stock, then tried to rack up % with ECE and died. . . ECE sucks in this MU because needles will clip your nose and kill you. Platforms helped a ton, and trying to keep her away was the main goal, F-smash and D-tilt/F-tilt were my main tools (too easy for aerials to be shield grabbed). F-smash is probably the best to edgeguard her with, although I still messed up a few times. . .

This may be personal preference but I like Battlefield because the platforms don't move and make it hard for Sheik to continue the chaingrab. You should DI the chaingrab here:

I have mentioned this before but although the DI angle is tough to get, you can break out at around 50% if you do it right. Also don't always N-air right after you get out otherwise Sheik can just shield it and grab you again. In the neutral game, Sheik will wait until you attack her shield then grab you if you're a little more on the aggressive side. I like to use this to my advantage and throw out an Egg Lay (Neutral B) instead so I punish her for shielding and get her in the air. Speaking of the air, you'll want Sheik above you as often as possible.

Another thing to remember is to not overcommit. Pretty much anything Sheik does leads into a combo or grab (which leads into a combo, lol), so if you don't think you'll be able to continue a combo try to bait her to throw out something and punish accordingly.

Final note: play patiently! I'm not the most patient player out there, but I had to change my playstyle up a bit so I can win this MU more often than not. In my sets with Alan I noticed that his Sheik had trouble dealing with properly spaced U-airs, B-airs, and F-smashes. I also had to stop approaching with DJC N-air often because he'd grab me out of it. Most of Sheik's aerials have more range than yours, excluding Yoshi's U-air, but if you utilize Eggs and Yoshi's ground game properly then there is little that Sheik can do to get in without getting punished.

 

[Purpletuce]

Shiek CG definitely lasts longer than 50%, I did try that angle. I know I can eventually DJC N-air out, but if Shiek reads it I'm pretty sure U-smash -> F-air will kill you when you try to do that. I also think I play patiently enough, but I was playing against a really good Shiek (FoosJr), so I wasn't really too upset that I lost. I did play him on BF, and those platforms are high enough that you can't land on them from the CG until decently high %s. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

I've broken out of the chaingrab at 50% several times so I'm speaking from experience. Chances are your angle was off. If you want to DI onto the platforms make sure you DI up. If I remember correctly you can get on them at 30ish%.

I was saying not to always N-air for the same reason you mentioned above. You probably misread what I posted.

 

[Purpletuce]

Maybe the Shiek you were playing against wasn't doing to CG as past as possible or misspacing the grab. . . I'll try different angles later. I don't know about getting onto platforms that early either. . . I'll test both of these things when I'm with another player. Maybe there is a version difference going on here? (Although I only think Shiek's D-throw changes between NTSC and PAL.)

 

[Jackie]

Vman should know the percentages. I do believe you can escape around 50% though. I don't think there's a version difference. I thought you can't be punished if you're DJC nairing to land behind them though? I'm not sure if that is guaranteed or if the Sheik is messing up to allow that.

 

[Kimimaru]

Oh, that's what you meant. If you can get behind then yeah it's safe. I thought you were referring to DJC N-airing from the front of her shield.

Yes, Sheik's D-throw was changed only in PAL. Note that the percentages I listed above were rough estimates.

 

[MrHazuki]

If a Sheik can CG you in PAL, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Purpletuce]

Vman messaged me saying he thinks the Di works around 45% but you'll get tippered if they see it coming.

Also, MrHazuki, did you just read the very last post or something? Nobody even said they were playing PAL, let alone being chaingrabbed in it. Nobody here even plays PAL.

 

[MrHazuki]

I do believe you can escape around 50% though. I don't think there's a version difference.

This is what I was responding to. There is a large version difference. Sorry if I was unclear.
Also, I play PAL. Sheik can still be quite a pain for us.

 

[Purpletuce]

Jackie was probably talking about version differences within ntsc.

 

[MrHazuki]

Makes sense. Settled.

 

[Kimimaru]

Leffen stated once before that he thought the MU was in Yoshi's favor in PAL and I can see why (but can't speak from experience because I've never played PAL). I definitely think its more even though. Yoshi gets a nice weight buff and has stronger up and forward smashes, which already do a good job KOing Sheik in NTSC. Of course, there's also her inability to chaingrab which is easily the biggest problem Yoshi has with her in NTSC. Furthermore, Sheik's U-smash and U-air were weakened so she has fewer effective killing options against Yoshi.

 

[MrHazuki]

I'd say that the only two important changes mentioned there are d-throw and uair, which I am very grateful for. I haven't really understood the matchup yet so all of your thoughts here are helpful. This is a great thread.

 

[Purpletuce]

So I had a chance to smash today. I learned you can do that DI around 50%, and different levels of staleness probably affect it, but ~50% seemed to work. Although you can't DI onto BF plats until past 70%. . .

I also did a really cool combo vs Falcon: F-tilt -> DJC U-air -> dash attack -> egg toss (into stage) to grab ledge) -> ledgehop N-air him into the egg -> SHFFL B-air (hit with one hit) -> D-smash.

I also played with being more aggressive vs. Falco some more, and it is still working great. . . and is fun. Not letting the bird get momentum goes a huge way.

 

[Kimimaru]

VMan I saw your last two games in your set with Axe today. Good stuff overall! You looked really scared in game 2 though and stayed in your shield far too often. Which stage did you play on in game 1?

 

[Purpletuce]

Sooo. . . Kimi, you know of a NorCal Peach named Asuza? He came up to Oregon for a family vacation, and I got to play him quite a bit (and I learned the Peach MU pretty well). This was my first time to actually practice with a Peach, and I think that is a pretty cool MU. That guy is pretty good, beat me overall.

 

[Kimimaru]

I've never played him before, but I heard about him. He hasn't been at many of the tournaments I attended.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I felt I was playing fine vs axe honestly...ive had better sets with him...I was in a more defensive mindset, after playing vs tai and wobbles...Otherwise, I think its just a common..."We play each other all the time feeling..." I wasnt playing as consistently sound vs axe.. But I dont feel I was too off...but I will admit...i was alot more fluent vs tai and wobbles...Overall, it was good fun..and I had a blast...most of my sets were recorded, actually my entire tournament was basically recorded.. lol.. I think I was on stream for each/all my tourney matches..and youll all be able to see soon..^^; Results should be up soon too.. Thanks for watching. There are things I wanna discuss when I get back ^^

 

[Bones0]

I felt I was playing fine vs axe honestly...ive had better sets with him...I was in a more defensive mindset, after playing vs tai and wobbles...Otherwise, I think its just a common..."We play each other all the time feeling..." I wasnt playing as consistently sound vs axe.. But I dont feel I was too off...but I will admit...i was alot more fluent vs tai and wobbles...Overall, it was good fun..and I had a blast...most of my sets were recorded, actually my entire tournament was basically recorded.. lol.. I think I was on stream for each/all my tourney matches..and youll all be able to see soon..^^; Results should be up soon too.. Thanks for watching. There are things I wanna discuss when I get back ^^

If I don't see some grounded dair combos, I will be very upset.

 

[Kimimaru]

That reminds me. I did a D-air -> D-smash combo in a tournament match in that tournament I posted the bracket images for.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Ok, so there's alot I wanna say, but I don't know exactly where to start... so I guess i'm going to start like this....

Went to an AZ tourney for the first time in nearly 2 years.. (i usually only go to nationals)... and I was the only player that had their entire bracket matches recorded... haha.. it was an honor but yeah weird.... I want to share alot of knowledge with the Yoshi forums on some new things/matchups... that I find useful etc.... I plan on doing a "timestamp" format similar with how I did with Purple's critique... but I am completely unsure... Besides that, here are the awesome matches that I had yesterday... In order of tourney/bracket(s)...

Winners Bracket...
vs Hawain (Falco) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eu9IOtswu8
vs Tai (Marth) *WQF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E6kEyBz0Jw4#t=242s
vs Wobbles (IC's/Doc) - *WSF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRQcXs_AY00

Losers Bracket...
vs Neon (Peach) *LQF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Nh3GRpEtE
vs Tai (Marth)) *LSF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYfSIgTxIl8
vs Axe (Pikachu) *LF* - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7gxZh27GYI <--- Yeah I know you've all seen these.. XD.. but hey it's Losers Finals

Leave comments and/or thoughts... and I guess I'll go with what the Yoshi community wants...

I have so many thoughts I wanna put, and things I wanna talk about, and secrets I wanna share... I just have no idea where to start.. >.<

 

[MrHazuki]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Kimimaru]

Does jab really combo into F-tilt? I see you use it a lot and it seems like it may, but I'm not 100% sure.

General Notes:
-The D-air shield pressure when the opponent is on the edge is really good. I usually think doing something like that is pointless if it doesn't actually hit the opponent, but watching it more in action helps me realize how much it limits their defensive options
-Since your shield dropping consistency is amazing, Hawain had trouble attacking you on a platform without getting punished. Now I think that consistent shield dropping is key to winning not only the Falco MU, but all MUs

Some thoughts on your Peach play against Neon:

-Nice stuff overall, especially the ECEs!
-I feel you should try to counter her FC F-airs with U-smash, especially when she's at kill percent. 7:54 is a good example of this. I think around 110% is the minimum you need to kill her off the top of FD, if not earlier
-Another U-smash suggestion: on FoD, it's completely safe under an opponent on a platform if he/she can't shield drop well. 1:05 is an example of what I mean. The giant, invincible hitbox that U-smash puts on Yoshi's head allows him to safely challenge Peach's D-smash. As you probably already know, this isn't a good option if the platform is going down

I really love how you handled the Marth matchup in your matches with Tai!

Your play in your recent sets is familiar to mine in that I make similar decisions and mistakes than you. It's no wonder that Axe told me that my playstyle reminded him of you . Good stuff; it's always nice to have more Yoshi videos!

 

[Purpletuce]

You should be able to shield drop as well as you can jump OOS imo. . . also, I'm pretty sure that people can CC D-air, so those %s are about 2/3rds too low.

Jab probably doesn't really combo into F-tilt until obnoxious percents, but jab is super useful to disrupt your opponent, and unless they expect it, you can have a F-air out before they can handle it. It works similar to Falco's laser -> fsmash.

 

[aMSa]

I watched new Vman's Yoshi video! I'm so excited!
VS Wobbles,Ice Climbers, D-tilt and D-smash and Egg Lay is very useful to drop Nana
・aMSa VS Ice Climber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YFiPR-IP4　(3:48～)　egg lay　→ D-tilt or D-smash
If you do Egg lay to Nana,she can't be gone out of egg for about 4 seconds.

I want to join Yoshi community,and share any Yoshi skill !

How many yoshi player is seen at EVO....?
I bring PC to record any Friendlies.VS Yoshi is rarely in Japan.
Please play with me at EVO....?:D

 

[V3ctorMan]

I love you aMSa. you are MORE than welcome.. to join us and talk about yoshi...

it's better for us to talk here rather than private messages like we have been talking..

welcome to the Yoshi thread :-)

the only Yoshis, that I know of that are going to Evo are me and you.. I hope more join us.

 

[Kimimaru]

Will we see a V3ctorMan/aMSa team? I hope so .

 

[Shiri]

Wow, didn't think people still posted here.

Probably late to the discussion, but the escape % for Sheik CG with normal conditions is 63%.

Oh, also forgot, you should not DJ the neutral air (if you use that move out of stun) because the DJ will drop you back into her grab (there is still a hitbox for the grab around her shoulder if I remember).

 

[aMSa]

I love you aMSa. you are MORE than welcome.. to join us and talk about yoshi...

it's better for us to talk here rather than private messages like we have been talking..

welcome to the Yoshi thread :-)

the only Yoshis, that I know of that are going to Evo are me and you.. I hope more join us.

I love you too,Vman:D.　thank you lol

I'm doing Skype.
ID→aMSanoYoshi.
Are you doing?　
And I have to learn some language at melee in English XD
wavedash→絶
parrying→ブロッキング
DJC　〇air→ぺち
etc...
Only you and me? Oh....I hope too.

Will we see a V3ctorMan/aMSa team? I hope so .

I want to do Vman/aMSa team and to record it :D
I'm going to stay Las Vegas, July 10 ~15. I have a chance to do~♪ :D

 

[Kimimaru]

Awesome! I can't wait to see how well you two do at EVO!

In the meantime, do any of you guys want to talk about anything specific (MUs, techniques, etc.)? aMSa, what are your thoughts on Yoshi as a whole?

 

[Bones0]

Will we see a V3ctorMan/aMSa team? I hope so .

That's not really fair to the other competitors.







Can't wait.

 

[Purpletuce]

Went to a tournament this weekend, nwm5, lots of goof players like m2k sw bw s2j blunted object okami etc, did really well overall. I definitely felt like I improved a ton. In my pool I 2-0 ed everyone except m2k, which included the 6th best in Washington (Marth), and someone who might be 10th(if not he is 11th) who played falco. After pools I took a break to watch commentate and eat, but then bracket started and I had to go in against a peach cold. I think I could have beaten him if I was in a better circumstance.(SDs) Next I lost to the 2nd best shiek in my region, game one was close until I SDed and got killed at under 20% while I was trying to ece. I think I would have lost no matter what, but I felt like I was doing really well against him. A ton better than when I last played him. Overall I got 17th at the regional. I'll post thoughts later, but my computer is broken.

 

[MrHazuki]

I would love some names. Good job. Hard work pays off.

 

[Purpletuce]

So. . . my computer only works in safe mode now.

(recorded)Lost to M2K 2-0 in pools. . . we both were messing around if you see it uploaded. . .
(recorded)Beat Iceman(6 on WA PR) 2-0 in pools and 3-2 in a $5MM
(recorded)Beat Oreo(either 10 on WA PR or is considered 11 and possibly moving to 10) 2-0 in pools (it was sloppy though)
Beat a guy I don't remember 2-0, he was relatively new. . .

Lost to Artifice(Peach) 2-0 in bracket. He was the guy I was jhonning about above. . . I suck.
Lost to Foos(2-0) 2-0 in bracket

Final place: 17th


MMs:

beat Banana(8/9/10 on WA PR?) (Fox) 2-1 in a $1 MM, but it was super close. At this point I was super tired and not playing on point. . . but I felt like he was slightly better at the time.

lost to C!z(4 on WA PR, recent wins against Bladewise, Eggz, other and recently won a WA state tourney) -0 (Marth) in $1, I felt like I could have taken a game off him. . . they were close, but he is definitely better than I am.

lost to OkamiBW 2-0, I don't remember how the games in the MM were, I played him often. I had lots of close games with him, but sometimes I got beaten pretty hard. Late that night he beat me pretty hard when I was sleepy. . . Shiek is a strange MU.

Can't think of any other MMs. . . or notable games, but there were others.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Okami is from Arizona... he practices with Angel and myself a lot... you likely should have lost that match up... I would have gave Okami hell if you beat him...<3

nah I'm just kidding.. but yeah he knows how to fight Yoshi... I don't really recognize any of the names except ciz... but hey good stuff overall... you said your games got recorded? I would like to watch and help you out..

edit: yeah I just saw the results page.. I am I thinking of a different tournaments or was this tournament much smaller than last years..?.. how many people were there?.. 24? or is 24 just the bracket people?...hmmm... I'm so confused

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, only top 24 made it out of pools. This was much smaller than last year. Pretty much only top level players came from out of state, the t o made the mistake of putting it on one if the worst weekends of the year lol.

 

[V3ctorMan]

its all good man we all start somewhere... I would like to see your vids when they come out.. will have you the best in your region in no time..

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, that would be cool, I still have a ton of work to do though. I'm going to try and continue improving. . .

Videos should be up soon.