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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)
- Thread starter Taj278
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well, afaik, that is correct. It's certainly true for the large majority of moves, especially if you consider that when you uair people, they are usually airborne, and very few aerials are able to compete with even mediocore hitboxes below them. He never said always use it though, and his post even stipulated at least once instance when you probably WON'T want to use it (when you have already DJed and could get knocked off).
Purpletuce, I was meaning to check out your match before but I forgot; sorry about that.
I finally got to it now, and here's my critique:
-Good shield dropping skills!
-It seems like you need to work a bit more on your edge game, which will really help when edgeguarding. Practice ECEs and another ledgestall of choice
-At around 23:50 when you're trying to edgeguarding him, you never do any ECEs behind you. This is one of Yoshi's biggest strengths when edgeguarding Marth
-24:20 was a free N-air after you hit him with the egg
-Don't be afraid to grab or use Egg Lay if he keeps trying to shield grab you. D-throw -> U-air is guaranteed at lower percents
-At 26:30, you immediately run away from Marth and corner yourself at the edge of the stage. You'll want to always have as much stage control as possible, so stay in the center and push him to the edges instead of putting yourself at a disadvantage
-At 26:47, a dash attack would've worked beautifully and probably netted you a kill if you succeeded in edgeguarding him
-Way too much rolling and sidestepping in general. Yoshi's roll is good, but rolling when you're not in danger should be avoided. An example is at 28:04 where you could have beaten out many of Marth's options with a U-smash or U-air instead of rolling
-You didn't space with full hop B-air at all, which is one of Yoshi's best spacing tools
-You throw eggs for a little too long when the opponent is offstage. There are various times where you could've edgehogged and forced him to use his recovery (most notably 34:15)
-At 34:50, a U-air would've been a guaranteed kill and been easier for you to land and harder for him to deal with in that position
-Again at 34:56, a dash attack would have finished him
-Against a Marth that F-smashes that much, you should have been able to punish most of them but didn't. Work more on your movement and don't be afraid of your opponent. Make your opponent be afraid of you
I was actually afraid you were going to lose that match at the end, but you managed to get the final hit. That about wraps it up. Work more on your fundamentals and you'll be a really solid player!
I finally got to it now, and here's my critique:
-Good shield dropping skills!
-It seems like you need to work a bit more on your edge game, which will really help when edgeguarding. Practice ECEs and another ledgestall of choice
-At around 23:50 when you're trying to edgeguarding him, you never do any ECEs behind you. This is one of Yoshi's biggest strengths when edgeguarding Marth
-24:20 was a free N-air after you hit him with the egg
-Don't be afraid to grab or use Egg Lay if he keeps trying to shield grab you. D-throw -> U-air is guaranteed at lower percents
-At 26:30, you immediately run away from Marth and corner yourself at the edge of the stage. You'll want to always have as much stage control as possible, so stay in the center and push him to the edges instead of putting yourself at a disadvantage
-At 26:47, a dash attack would've worked beautifully and probably netted you a kill if you succeeded in edgeguarding him
-Way too much rolling and sidestepping in general. Yoshi's roll is good, but rolling when you're not in danger should be avoided. An example is at 28:04 where you could have beaten out many of Marth's options with a U-smash or U-air instead of rolling
-You didn't space with full hop B-air at all, which is one of Yoshi's best spacing tools
-You throw eggs for a little too long when the opponent is offstage. There are various times where you could've edgehogged and forced him to use his recovery (most notably 34:15)
-At 34:50, a U-air would've been a guaranteed kill and been easier for you to land and harder for him to deal with in that position
-Again at 34:56, a dash attack would have finished him
-Against a Marth that F-smashes that much, you should have been able to punish most of them but didn't. Work more on your movement and don't be afraid of your opponent. Make your opponent be afraid of you
I was actually afraid you were going to lose that match at the end, but you managed to get the final hit. That about wraps it up. Work more on your fundamentals and you'll be a really solid player!
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Some of those things were straight up accidents, like Ftilting instead of dashes or not nairing from the ledge. Some of those I was just choking. . . After watching the video, I couldn't believe how seldom I used B-air! I was too occupied trying new things I guess, whoops.
What are some thoughts on F-smash punishes? Other than reading when he Fsmashes and parrying, all I ever really get is a dash attack or Dtilt.
Finally, I was wondering about the grab follow ups. . . So U-air is actually a thing on nonfastfallers? Also, is F-air just good as a mixup? I've seen that attempted before.
Thank you very much for watching. Hopefully next time I'm recorded it'll be a match where I'm playing on point. (I played really well against a puff like 3 hours later, shame that wasn't recorded :[ )
What are some thoughts on F-smash punishes? Other than reading when he Fsmashes and parrying, all I ever really get is a dash attack or Dtilt.
Finally, I was wondering about the grab follow ups. . . So U-air is actually a thing on nonfastfallers? Also, is F-air just good as a mixup? I've seen that attempted before.
Thank you very much for watching. Hopefully next time I'm recorded it'll be a match where I'm playing on point. (I played really well against a puff like 3 hours later, shame that wasn't recorded :[ )
Some of what you did, like throwing eggs when he's by the edge, seem a bit more like bad habits. I don't know how you were feeling when you played then so I won't assume anything.
F-smash punishes are great and always catch people offguard. It's generally a safe move to use when spaced well; for example, if they keep SHFFL approaching you with aerials you'll want to use it to stuff the approach.
Yes, U-air works well on characters with medium falling speeds like Marth. You can do many U-air chains on Marth, which is why I was surprised you never got any against that player. U-tilt -> U-air is guaranteed if you hit him around the lower to middle parts of the hitbox because the upper part will make him fly too high for you to reach him, and D-throw -> U-air works at mid percents for racking up a bit of damage. F-air does work as a mixup but is a better option if you won't be able to follow up on your next U-air.
I forgot to mention that you do employ a good strategy that I use against Marth, which is to D-tilt him towards the edge on a fresh stock of his so you can immediately start edgeguarding him. Yoshi's two down moves, D-smash and D-tilt, are particularly amazing against Marth (and great in general).
However, I want to stress the main part of your play that I think needs improvement. Based on your play, you seemed afraid of Marth. It's natural for players to roll excessively or spotdodge a bunch (admittingly I still do it at times) when afraid, but in a tournament match you should use your time in between stocks just cooling yourself off and forgetting about everything else that happened previously and focus on making him afraid of you. Trades are definitely in your favor in that MU so go for one if you can; I always feel better when I know that I can keep trading with someone and still win in many cases.
A good step to work towards being the bully is to intimidate opponents with your movement. If your opponent usually remains stationary, like that Marth player, you can easily bait an attack using Yoshi's platform mobility.
F-smash punishes are great and always catch people offguard. It's generally a safe move to use when spaced well; for example, if they keep SHFFL approaching you with aerials you'll want to use it to stuff the approach.
Yes, U-air works well on characters with medium falling speeds like Marth. You can do many U-air chains on Marth, which is why I was surprised you never got any against that player. U-tilt -> U-air is guaranteed if you hit him around the lower to middle parts of the hitbox because the upper part will make him fly too high for you to reach him, and D-throw -> U-air works at mid percents for racking up a bit of damage. F-air does work as a mixup but is a better option if you won't be able to follow up on your next U-air.
I forgot to mention that you do employ a good strategy that I use against Marth, which is to D-tilt him towards the edge on a fresh stock of his so you can immediately start edgeguarding him. Yoshi's two down moves, D-smash and D-tilt, are particularly amazing against Marth (and great in general).
However, I want to stress the main part of your play that I think needs improvement. Based on your play, you seemed afraid of Marth. It's natural for players to roll excessively or spotdodge a bunch (admittingly I still do it at times) when afraid, but in a tournament match you should use your time in between stocks just cooling yourself off and forgetting about everything else that happened previously and focus on making him afraid of you. Trades are definitely in your favor in that MU so go for one if you can; I always feel better when I know that I can keep trading with someone and still win in many cases.
A good step to work towards being the bully is to intimidate opponents with your movement. If your opponent usually remains stationary, like that Marth player, you can easily bait an attack using Yoshi's platform mobility.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I think I tend to regress my play in tournament matches, falling back on my bad habits. For example, in friendlies, I'm more apt to try to get in for DJC U-air chains (I think I usually get one every match on average), but in this set I focused on spacing, probably because I was nervous. I don't think my play is solid enough when I'm on the aggressive, so I back down from trying it. It is dumb, and I recognize doing it. . . but it is habit.
Especially with grabs, U-air chains and parries.
Especially with grabs, U-air chains and parries.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
I'm actually watching you now again Purple.. 
I watched a few nights ago, but didn't get a chance to comment, so i'll be doing that today also
I watched a few nights ago, but didn't get a chance to comment, so i'll be doing that today also Jackie
Smash Journeyman
Logan, I just watched your matches versus Marth.
-Your shield dropping has gotten pretty consistent. You just shield drop though, I don't see you counter attacking.
-You don't run away then DJC nair towards the opponent ever. That's crucial for Yoshi's spacing game.
-I don't think I noticed you using f-air almost at all. Get comfortable using it with its large hitbox and its power against crouchcancellers.
-You have a bad habit of taking hits with your armor but not trading hits. You're just giving them free damage.
I'd say the second point is the most important. You wavedash back a lot but hardly dashdance to space and bait whiffed/misspaced attacks. My favorite point of references for dashdancing are old Ken or Darkrain videos. Though they're not Yoshi, they DD so well and you won't be distracted by new school metagame.
I also want to see you incorporate nair edgeguards. Run and shorthop nair, don't fastfall — you want to hit the opponent with the weak lingering hitbox of your nair to kill the opponent's recovery momentum and you'll recover easily. On platform stages, you can also run off the side platform and immediately nair.
-Your shield dropping has gotten pretty consistent. You just shield drop though, I don't see you counter attacking.
-You don't run away then DJC nair towards the opponent ever. That's crucial for Yoshi's spacing game.
-I don't think I noticed you using f-air almost at all. Get comfortable using it with its large hitbox and its power against crouchcancellers.
-You have a bad habit of taking hits with your armor but not trading hits. You're just giving them free damage.
I'd say the second point is the most important. You wavedash back a lot but hardly dashdance to space and bait whiffed/misspaced attacks. My favorite point of references for dashdancing are old Ken or Darkrain videos. Though they're not Yoshi, they DD so well and you won't be distracted by new school metagame.
I also want to see you incorporate nair edgeguards. Run and shorthop nair, don't fastfall — you want to hit the opponent with the weak lingering hitbox of your nair to kill the opponent's recovery momentum and you'll recover easily. On platform stages, you can also run off the side platform and immediately nair.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think you could really help out all the Yoshi peeps if you could make a post about dealing with DDWD camping. Yoshi is no doubt a difficult character, but I have never really struggled with any of his defensive options. They are all really good, and most of the time when I get hit it is because I simply messed up techskill. Smart opponents, however, understand Yoshi's defensive options are so good, so they will zone you out or simply stay on the ground and force you to overextend with stuff like hard read fairs, flimsy zoning bairs, desperation neutral-Bs, or just general CC & Pray tactics. If you (or any other Yoshis) feel like they could break down the method of approaching campy players, I think that would do a lot to make this character seem more solid overall. What can Yoshi threaten with to prevent characters like Marth just zoning with SHDF or Fox DD camping and grabbing any time he approaches? Relying on run up parries and tossing out random eggs just isn't cutting it for me, and I've seen virtually every other Yoshi struggle in this aspect.I'm actually watching you now again Purple..
Are you referring to hitting them further off the stage with N-air? If you hit them towards it they can just wall tech it and you'll be in a worse spot. Reverse N-air is probably better in this case because the hitbox extends further behind Yoshi than in front of him.
I agree; I would like some advice on this too. I'm confident there's a way for Yoshi to deal with it but my guess is that Yoshi players haven't figured out an effective counter yet because of how he moves.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
k bones/Kimi.. will do, I'm a do my daily stream/practice for EVO, then i'll make some informative post about thoughts.. I have the next 2 days off, so I'll try to give the best insight that I can.. ^^
speaking of which.. - http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman
will do, I'm a do my daily stream/practice for EVO, then i'll make some informative post about thoughts.. I have the next 2 days off, so I'll try to give the best insight that I can.. ^^speaking of which.. - http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Thanks vman. :D
Kimi, I mean I'm not comfortable with newer things I've been implementing or risky things. As in I'm really familiar with doing simple shield drop to get down from things, but I'm not as familiar with doing shield drop -> N-air, because it is something I've been working on lately, so I don't really do that as much. I get nervous I guess.
DJC N-air into opponent is something I never have really implemented too much. I've done it quite a bit to fake out stuff, most notably I tried jumping over grounder opponents to bait a getup attack, then DJ N-airing them, but I stopped that because if they change their timing it messes it up. . . What exactly are you talking about doing? Jump away -> DJ to turn around and shoot at them with N-air?
Lately I've been fairing a ton in friendlies, but I think this is one of the things I back down on when pressure is on. . .
SH N-air? How does that work? I've messed around with N-air from the ledge, but I thing SH N-air doesn't have much priority. . . when specifically do you use it?
MY DASHDANCING IS TERRIBLE. I never work on it. I need to work on it. I don't. Should I just practice 'shadow boxing' kind of things with it?
Kimi, I mean I'm not comfortable with newer things I've been implementing or risky things. As in I'm really familiar with doing simple shield drop to get down from things, but I'm not as familiar with doing shield drop -> N-air, because it is something I've been working on lately, so I don't really do that as much. I get nervous I guess.
I had been working a good amount on shield drop -> N-air or shield drop -> Dj -> stuff, although I think I was trying to hard and simply missed too many of them. I definitely got some though. I also have two different controllers with two different types of joysticks, so I think committing to one would help.
DJC N-air into opponent is something I never have really implemented too much. I've done it quite a bit to fake out stuff, most notably I tried jumping over grounder opponents to bait a getup attack, then DJ N-airing them, but I stopped that because if they change their timing it messes it up. . . What exactly are you talking about doing? Jump away -> DJ to turn around and shoot at them with N-air?
Lately I've been fairing a ton in friendlies, but I think this is one of the things I back down on when pressure is on. . .
SH N-air? How does that work? I've messed around with N-air from the ledge, but I thing SH N-air doesn't have much priority. . . when specifically do you use it?
MY DASHDANCING IS TERRIBLE. I never work on it. I need to work on it. I don't. Should I just practice 'shadow boxing' kind of things with it?
Jackie
Smash Journeyman
Jump away or run away off a platform, then DJC nair back towards the opponent. Kind of like an aerial dashdance into attack.
SH nair offstage versus spacies, primarily. Use it to intercept their forward B or to trade hits with their up B. It can work against other characters sometimes if they don't hit you first. Its main use is if they are recovering horizontal to the stage or a little low.
For practicing dashdancing, you want to be able to do the tiniest dashdances and the longest ones. Practice foxtrotting so you get comfortable with the length of your initial dash, which is the longest you can dash in a dashdance. Once you gain control over that, then you can start practicing mixing up your lengths to be unpredictable but at your discretion. Be as precise as possible.
In a game as fast as Melee, you really need to make full control of your movement one of your top priorities.
SH nair offstage versus spacies, primarily. Use it to intercept their forward B or to trade hits with their up B. It can work against other characters sometimes if they don't hit you first. Its main use is if they are recovering horizontal to the stage or a little low.
For practicing dashdancing, you want to be able to do the tiniest dashdances and the longest ones. Practice foxtrotting so you get comfortable with the length of your initial dash, which is the longest you can dash in a dashdance. Once you gain control over that, then you can start practicing mixing up your lengths to be unpredictable but at your discretion. Be as precise as possible.
In a game as fast as Melee, you really need to make full control of your movement one of your top priorities.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
That is an interesting way to use the DJC N-air. I never really did that much in neutral. . .
I'll have to toy around with the SH N-air.
Practicing DD time. . .
Thank you very much for your help.
I'll have to toy around with the SH N-air.
Practicing DD time. . .
Thank you very much for your help.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Ok Purpletuce.. Here we go... I'm doing timestamps, because I don't know any other way to properly do it.. so i'll be copying Kimimru, hopefully with more insight, on decisions.. etc.. ><
DISCLAIMER: I'm going to mention anything I see... I understand.. the jitters or accidents, etc, but again this is the only way I believe I can help you/ for me to be effective for you. Here's the link (in case other Yoshi's wanna contribute) - http://www.twitch.tv/extravirgin69/c/2244104
Game 1.
0:29 - Free Dsmash/Ftilt to followup (considering the % the Marth was at, I would've gone the Ftilt follow up route) This is also me assuming I likely will not kill the Marth at that %) but for offstage preference Dsmash/DJCNair is fine.
0:31 - When being Dthrown, by Marth you can "risk" using your DJ, to absorb his Fsmash (at that % at least) and retaliate w/a DJCAerial.. This is personal preference.. but rewarding w/the proper followup.
The rest of that first stock looked great!
1:28 - You had a free Dsmash, and that would've been a stock.. (granted you took the stock w/o much extra harm) but for future purposes, if given that opportunity... you don't wanna take a chance at risking the openings you get..
1:39 - You had a GREAT DJCcounter opportunity (given the scenario and % you were at you could've Nair<Ftiltx2 (Left) on the platform and get some followups...
1:52 - Im sure you know what you could've got with that shielddrop! <3
2:00 - Nice parry, woulda been cool if you followed up.. ^^
2:26 - Forward Air, opportunity off of the Marth messup, (but you took a safer option, which is also ok)
2:30-2:31 - dash attacks.. never at that low % that Marth was at, there are just better moves to use here...(hope these were unintentional)
2:55 - so close.
3:13 - so close again.
Very solid Game 1.
Game 2.
3:55 - Man, great start to the match, but finish it! (Dsmash) Would've been an awesome first stock! =D
4:07 - You could've sweetspotted with DownB on ledge, (still possible to have been punished, but less likely) would've been a better option than the eggroll..
4:18 - Free Downsmash after shield.. Potentially had the stock there..
4:24-4:25 - Man missing shielddrops stinks... I go crazy when I miss one..
4:27-4:29 - Dsmash would've connected w/that missed grab.. afterwards, you Fsmashed.. In the random notes section at the bottom.. Fsmash is great for not just damage but for baiting.. this is a PRIME example of Double Fsmash being Amazing in general as Yoshi, at it spaces/dodges, and damages..
4:38 - ^same as above, Double Fsmash would've been great.. (you attempted the 2nd one, but not in successive session after the first so the marth had enough time to waveshield and get into position..
4:47 - if you ever expect marth to Dthrow, and you're at low % and Marth at high % DI inward.. IF marth attacks you at least trade with a DJCcounter, if the marth does nothing, then you take no further damage.. (For the most part it's a win) being on the ground after a missed tech is scary vs Marth, as all Yoshi's options are very limited, since Marth can react to what you do..(Try not to get up attack in this MU, unless it's 100% best option) Yoshi's get up attack does not have a large range, and marth's SH goes right over it..
Excellent 2nd stock to get you back in the game! <3
5:18 - Poor move choice, unless you were just strictly trying to get some % in.. even if that Dsmash would've connected you would've only been punished right after that..
5:30 - Unfortunate Tipper... =/
The rest of that match just seemed unfortunate... He was kinda just throwing out Fsmash, and you just ran into them.. then that last one was a tipper?..
Game 2 notes: I think Kimi stated this, but after most getups, you'd always spotdodge.. try to minimize this habit, as it will harm you later on in the future when you begin playing tougher competition... if you want a better option after getups, simply run off and grab the edge and start ECE, and try and build some %. Speaking of which, where are the ECE? They are SPLENDID on this stage since they can practically cover the ENTIRE stage portion.. I believe it's essential having these for this MU..Lastly try attacking the back of Marths shield more, that is where you are likely to get the shieldstab.. Reverse DJCNair, is a great spacing tool, and damage builder... These are also missing..
Game 3:
That's unfortunate that the Marth banned dreamland... that's a GREAT stage for Yoshi vs Marth..
7:40 - ECE to bait the Up+B, if you're looking for a safer option, when you rolled on stage, you had enough time to wavedash<Dsmash..
8:10 - This is where the "crossup" would've been gold.. you did a full jump Nair which connected, and how Marth was positioned and how he was shielding.. this is where you could've put some pressure on the back of Marth's shield with DJCNair pressure on the back of Marth's shield.. Usually one to two DJC<Ftilt will either get the stab you need for combo starter or put marth's shield in a position where Marth will be trying to reposition himself (running away) since his shield will be weak.
8:17 - unfortunate tipper, again seemed kinda random, but he got the vulnerability of the roll that would connect... If marth is giving you that kind of space, use that to either get on the edge and start throwing some eggs, or use those lovely platforms for some mindgames/positioning.. There was no reason, to roll towards him there.. since there was no move/projectile Marth has that would've put you in danger.. Use that to reposition or throw eggs..
8:20-8:21 - No dash attack at that low% it would've done nothing for you besides the 6% +punish from Marth, look for a different type of opening or move here.
8:31 - It's great that you've improved on shielddropping, but when you're that high on a platform, and the Marth is waiting/anticipating your shielddrop, you probably shouldn't shielddrop.. instead you should've used your shielddropping abilities to bait his anticipation..so shielddrop<jumpwaveland or something.. you wouldn't have gotten punished..(though at least your Nair traded) but still, for future purposes..
8:57 - As Jackie stated, it's great to shielddrop, but you need to do something with it, Shielddrop nair/Uair would've put you in a nice position here..
9:01 - same as ^8:17. there was no reason for you to roll toward him here.. None of Marth's moveset can hit you how he was positioned.. ECE, or roll back towards the edge and throw some eggs..
9:12 - either go high to get to the top platform, or if your opponent is baiting the top platform, "feint" as if you're going for the top platform, and just airdodge back down to the edge, or platform... If you want a risky approach, how the Marth was positioned, you could've attempted to simply come down on the stage and ledgecancel on the left side of the right platform, since that is how Yoshi was positioned.. but with that Marth's Fsmash habit I see why you didn't do that (again just giving you options)
9:37 - Egglay would've done surprisingly well here...
9:58 - you were in no danger at all.. simply DownB to sweetspot the ledge, or simply fall to the ledge.. Marth wouldn't have gotten to you.. no need to eggroll..
Your next two shielddrops were superb! <3
10:21 - Hopefully you get to trust you ECE game, it will help you in the long run and will force Marth to UpB, into the egg, where you can then follow up..^^
10:42 - why were you just sitting there? anticipating/getting ready for a parry (which is normally fine) but yeah that's tipper/non tipper kill range anyway considering the % you were at.... very dangerous... I don't even think I would've tried that...
10:56 - you could've come down with a Nair<Ftilt (left) for a potential combo starter..
11:16 - you MUST capitalize on that opportunity.. that was a FREE charged Fsmash/Dsmash... *nerves getting to ya* them good old last stocks..
11:31 - wow.. I would've been so salty... great move choice, and it even looked like it would hit and won you the match... Dodged by like a hair... /salt
11:41-11:46 - those beginning egg throws were not necessary, Marth was very far off the map, all you needed were Low eggs.. to force the Marth to UpB into them.. Uair after the egg impact or Nair would've finished the job... again.. (I can understand it's your last stock and you were uncomfortable with the ECE.) again just for future..
11:59 - gahhhhh! finish him! any Uair/Nair would've finished! or ledgedash<dsmash/Fsmash! *jitters* ><:
12:05 - ><;;; Nair/Uair? *super jitters*
phhheeew!! *wipes sweat off* wow that was close man! Got those jitters.. ><;
Game 3 Notes: Besides those butterfingers man, yeah follow up man, and finish your food!! ><; Otherwise good job, good set, and experience will help you throughout this... The notes I wanna leave here, are notes I've left either in your game 2 performance, or below! Overall good fun, man. Keep it up and keep improving! <3
Some random notes: Fsmash in this MU is nice.. it's a great spacing tool, and even a baitable move.. Double Forward Smash is very good here..(actually good in general) if it hits free hit, if it's blocked.. (most players will attempt to waveshield<grab, or something along that idea.. the 2nd Fsmash, dodges their retaliation, with yoshi's windup.. and of course the hit.. Don't forget Yoshi's Ftilt.. One of Yoshi's most underappreciated moves.. in this MU, try to use it on the back of Marth's shield to create some pressure and space... Crossups are VERY useful in this MU, Make use of yoshi's reverse Nair here, and attack the back of Marth's shield, for awesome crossup opportunities.. When edgeguarding Marth, attempt to force Marth to UpB rather than let him grab edge.. so ECE is great here.. if the Marth lands on stage, Free Aerial from ledge or Ledgedash<Dsmash/Fsmash, and rinse repeat.. If you can force the Egg to hit Marth's UpB, and Marth DI's away you just pushed Marth further from the stage.. if marth DI's inward, then you have a free rising Nair.. Rinse/repeat till KO'd.. Lastly as we all know.. Shielddrop vs marth = AMAZING.. Get that down! <3
Optional? I've found Egglay to be useful in this MU for shieldhappy/shieldgrab type of marth players.. Egglay forces marth to be above you, which in this MU is not a happy time for Marth... Test, and see if it works for you.. Not a "must" use for this MU, but effective vs the right opponent. IMO it's a great tool for this MU..
Anyway hope this all helps... Sorry for the delay and wait! Keep it up man! <3
DISCLAIMER: I'm going to mention anything I see... I understand.. the jitters or accidents, etc, but again this is the only way I believe I can help you/ for me to be effective for you. Here's the link (in case other Yoshi's wanna contribute) - http://www.twitch.tv/extravirgin69/c/2244104
Game 1.
0:29 - Free Dsmash/Ftilt to followup (considering the % the Marth was at, I would've gone the Ftilt follow up route) This is also me assuming I likely will not kill the Marth at that %) but for offstage preference Dsmash/DJCNair is fine.
0:31 - When being Dthrown, by Marth you can "risk" using your DJ, to absorb his Fsmash (at that % at least) and retaliate w/a DJCAerial.. This is personal preference.. but rewarding w/the proper followup.
The rest of that first stock looked great!
1:28 - You had a free Dsmash, and that would've been a stock.. (granted you took the stock w/o much extra harm) but for future purposes, if given that opportunity... you don't wanna take a chance at risking the openings you get..
1:39 - You had a GREAT DJCcounter opportunity (given the scenario and % you were at you could've Nair<Ftiltx2 (Left) on the platform and get some followups...
1:52 - Im sure you know what you could've got with that shielddrop! <3
2:00 - Nice parry, woulda been cool if you followed up.. ^^
2:26 - Forward Air, opportunity off of the Marth messup, (but you took a safer option, which is also ok)
2:30-2:31 - dash attacks.. never at that low % that Marth was at, there are just better moves to use here...(hope these were unintentional)
2:55 - so close.
3:13 - so close again.
Very solid Game 1.
Game 2.
3:55 - Man, great start to the match, but finish it! (Dsmash) Would've been an awesome first stock! =D
4:07 - You could've sweetspotted with DownB on ledge, (still possible to have been punished, but less likely) would've been a better option than the eggroll..
4:18 - Free Downsmash after shield.. Potentially had the stock there..
4:24-4:25 - Man missing shielddrops stinks... I go crazy when I miss one..
4:27-4:29 - Dsmash would've connected w/that missed grab.. afterwards, you Fsmashed.. In the random notes section at the bottom.. Fsmash is great for not just damage but for baiting.. this is a PRIME example of Double Fsmash being Amazing in general as Yoshi, at it spaces/dodges, and damages..
4:38 - ^same as above, Double Fsmash would've been great.. (you attempted the 2nd one, but not in successive session after the first so the marth had enough time to waveshield and get into position..
4:47 - if you ever expect marth to Dthrow, and you're at low % and Marth at high % DI inward.. IF marth attacks you at least trade with a DJCcounter, if the marth does nothing, then you take no further damage.. (For the most part it's a win) being on the ground after a missed tech is scary vs Marth, as all Yoshi's options are very limited, since Marth can react to what you do..(Try not to get up attack in this MU, unless it's 100% best option) Yoshi's get up attack does not have a large range, and marth's SH goes right over it..
Excellent 2nd stock to get you back in the game! <3
5:18 - Poor move choice, unless you were just strictly trying to get some % in.. even if that Dsmash would've connected you would've only been punished right after that..
5:30 - Unfortunate Tipper... =/
The rest of that match just seemed unfortunate... He was kinda just throwing out Fsmash, and you just ran into them..
then that last one was a tipper?.. Game 2 notes: I think Kimi stated this, but after most getups, you'd always spotdodge.. try to minimize this habit, as it will harm you later on in the future when you begin playing tougher competition... if you want a better option after getups, simply run off and grab the edge and start ECE, and try and build some %. Speaking of which, where are the ECE? They are SPLENDID on this stage since they can practically cover the ENTIRE stage portion.. I believe it's essential having these for this MU..Lastly try attacking the back of Marths shield more, that is where you are likely to get the shieldstab..
Reverse DJCNair, is a great spacing tool, and damage builder... These are also missing.. Game 3:
That's unfortunate that the Marth banned dreamland... that's a GREAT stage for Yoshi vs Marth..
7:40 - ECE to bait the Up+B, if you're looking for a safer option, when you rolled on stage, you had enough time to wavedash<Dsmash..
8:10 - This is where the "crossup" would've been gold.. you did a full jump Nair which connected, and how Marth was positioned and how he was shielding.. this is where you could've put some pressure on the back of Marth's shield with DJCNair pressure on the back of Marth's shield.. Usually one to two DJC<Ftilt will either get the stab you need for combo starter or put marth's shield in a position where Marth will be trying to reposition himself (running away) since his shield will be weak.
8:17 - unfortunate tipper, again seemed kinda random, but he got the vulnerability of the roll that would connect... If marth is giving you that kind of space, use that to either get on the edge and start throwing some eggs, or use those lovely platforms for some mindgames/positioning.. There was no reason, to roll towards him there.. since there was no move/projectile Marth has that would've put you in danger.. Use that to reposition or throw eggs..
8:20-8:21 - No dash attack at that low% it would've done nothing for you besides the 6% +punish from Marth, look for a different type of opening or move here.
8:31 - It's great that you've improved on shielddropping, but when you're that high on a platform, and the Marth is waiting/anticipating your shielddrop, you probably shouldn't shielddrop.. instead you should've used your shielddropping abilities to bait his anticipation..so shielddrop<jumpwaveland or something.. you wouldn't have gotten punished..(though at least your Nair traded) but still, for future purposes..
8:57 - As Jackie stated, it's great to shielddrop, but you need to do something with it, Shielddrop nair/Uair would've put you in a nice position here..
9:01 - same as ^8:17. there was no reason for you to roll toward him here.. None of Marth's moveset can hit you how he was positioned.. ECE, or roll back towards the edge and throw some eggs..
9:12 - either go high to get to the top platform, or if your opponent is baiting the top platform, "feint" as if you're going for the top platform, and just airdodge back down to the edge, or platform...
If you want a risky approach, how the Marth was positioned, you could've attempted to simply come down on the stage and ledgecancel on the left side of the right platform, since that is how Yoshi was positioned.. but with that Marth's Fsmash habit I see why you didn't do that (again just giving you options)9:37 - Egglay would've done surprisingly well here...
9:58 - you were in no danger at all.. simply DownB to sweetspot the ledge, or simply fall to the ledge.. Marth wouldn't have gotten to you.. no need to eggroll..
Your next two shielddrops were superb! <3
10:21 - Hopefully you get to trust you ECE game, it will help you in the long run and will force Marth to UpB, into the egg, where you can then follow up..^^
10:42 - why were you just sitting there? anticipating/getting ready for a parry (which is normally fine) but yeah that's tipper/non tipper kill range anyway considering the % you were at.... very dangerous... I don't even think I would've tried that...
10:56 - you could've come down with a Nair<Ftilt (left) for a potential combo starter..
11:16 - you MUST capitalize on that opportunity.. that was a FREE charged Fsmash/Dsmash... *nerves getting to ya* them good old last stocks..
11:31 - wow.. I would've been so salty... great move choice, and it even looked like it would hit and won you the match... Dodged by like a hair... /salt
11:41-11:46 - those beginning egg throws were not necessary, Marth was very far off the map, all you needed were Low eggs.. to force the Marth to UpB into them.. Uair after the egg impact or Nair would've finished the job... again.. (I can understand it's your last stock and you were uncomfortable with the ECE.) again just for future..
11:59 - gahhhhh! finish him! any Uair/Nair would've finished! or ledgedash<dsmash/Fsmash! *jitters* ><:
12:05 - ><;;; Nair/Uair? *super jitters*
phhheeew!! *wipes sweat off* wow that was close man! Got those jitters.. ><;
Game 3 Notes: Besides those butterfingers man, yeah follow up man, and finish your food!! ><; Otherwise good job, good set, and experience will help you throughout this... The notes I wanna leave here, are notes I've left either in your game 2 performance, or below! Overall good fun, man. Keep it up and keep improving! <3
Some random notes: Fsmash in this MU is nice.. it's a great spacing tool, and even a baitable move.. Double Forward Smash is very good here..(actually good in general) if it hits free hit, if it's blocked.. (most players will attempt to waveshield<grab, or something along that idea.. the 2nd Fsmash, dodges their retaliation, with yoshi's windup.. and of course the hit..
Don't forget Yoshi's Ftilt.. One of Yoshi's most underappreciated moves.. in this MU, try to use it on the back of Marth's shield to create some pressure and space... Crossups are VERY useful in this MU, Make use of yoshi's reverse Nair here, and attack the back of Marth's shield, for awesome crossup opportunities.. When edgeguarding Marth, attempt to force Marth to UpB rather than let him grab edge.. so ECE is great here.. if the Marth lands on stage, Free Aerial from ledge or Ledgedash<Dsmash/Fsmash, and rinse repeat.. If you can force the Egg to hit Marth's UpB, and Marth DI's away you just pushed Marth further from the stage.. if marth DI's inward, then you have a free rising Nair.. Rinse/repeat till KO'd.. Lastly as we all know.. Shielddrop vs marth = AMAZING.. Get that down! <3Optional? I've found Egglay to be useful in this MU for shieldhappy/shieldgrab type of marth players.. Egglay forces marth to be above you, which in this MU is not a happy time for Marth... Test, and see if it works for you.. Not a "must" use for this MU, but effective vs the right opponent.
IMO it's a great tool for this MU.. Anyway hope this all helps... Sorry for the delay and wait! Keep it up man! <3
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Wow, thank you very much for such a comprehensive critique. I've definitely got plenty to work on now, hopefully next time I'll play 100% and see how far this advice can take me. I'm glad you're able to post again with your new computer, hopefully the Yoshi boards will continue to be this active :D
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
aMSa
Smash Rookie
I enjoyed watching Vman & SmurfyEXE !!
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
aMSa posts! :o Also, last night I was experiementing with shield drop into dj into aerial land. . . Sometimes it is really fast, I don't understand it yet. On average it is a little faster than a ECE though. Somehow when I do the DJ toward the ledge I seem to be doing it faster?
Not sure what's going on there. . .
Also, if you shield drop -> instant DJC N-air (so fast your DJ actually sends you down still), you can hit opponents on the platform you're dropping from?
Trying weird things and getting weird results. Anybody else ever tinker in this direction?
Not sure what's going on there. . .
Also, if you shield drop -> instant DJC N-air (so fast your DJ actually sends you down still), you can hit opponents on the platform you're dropping from?
Trying weird things and getting weird results. Anybody else ever tinker in this direction?
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Wow, thanks for all the viewers last night.. there were almost 40 of you at one point <3...
My favorite moment (which is below) but when my phone kept blowing up, cuz everyone was trying to contact me that aMsa was watching my stream for a GOOD while too.. all those phone calls.. lol <3 yall
That moment when you realize aMsa, was also watching... priceless! ^^; I'll try to stream often, so I can show progress etc... Thanks again all!
@Purple, Im always trying weird things. always haha..
My favorite moment (which is below) but when my phone kept blowing up, cuz everyone was trying to contact me that aMsa was watching my stream for a GOOD while too.. all those phone calls.. lol <3 yall
That moment when you realize aMsa, was also watching... priceless! ^^; I'll try to stream often, so I can show progress etc... Thanks again all!
@Purple, Im always trying weird things.
always haha..I was just reading through the old posts and came across this. I want to mention that this is true because Peach can't shield stab Yoshi's shield with D-smash, making his shield much more effective for dealing with her pressure. I'm pretty sure you can even release your shield as the last hitbox of her D-smash hits you and run away; your hard shield's lack of shield stun will allow you to do this as early as possible and even roll away from some of her D-smash hitboxes. If she wants to do FC aerial -> Grab you can avoid that too (although it'll be hard to react to) because again, Yoshi's shield allows him to just roll away.
Of course being unable to jump out of shield prevents you from completely countering her pressure, but I feel that Yoshi is better against it than most other characters, notably Falcon and Ganondorf. Personally, I've had very little trouble with her shield pressure and more trouble with her when she's chasing you when you're near the edge.
Does anyone else have more thoughts on the Peach MU?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I've played the MU a few times, it sucks if the Peach is smart and exploits her strengths (like Bladwise), although it is pretty decent if the Peach is dumb and treats you like any other heavyweight.
Some strengths Yoshi has: I think it is obvious that Yoshi has better overall maneuverability, with his run, WD and DJC momentum, although her float offers her a different kind of maneuverability. Your projectile is really versatile in the MU, and great at building damage, and getting her off the ground. (Which limits her ability to FC and D-smash). Her range is about the same as yours, depending on attack, so you have lots of different options to try to get in. When she is in the air, I think you want to either space moves to beat hers (B-air is good to maybe go for a mini combo, U-air goes for a juggle/positioning advantage, or a few other moves), or to bait out her F-air and punish it. I think her other aerials can be challenged by either your U-air, F-tilt, B-air or U-smash.
When you're edgeguarding her, you should try to get her float. Without her float, she can only really go vertical or airdodge. If she initiates her float, you also have the option of placing eggs in front of her, so she wants to go back(I think Leffen suggested this). Don't go too far out there, but if you think you can catch her with an aerial, it usually will only put you in an even better position.
This is one MU where I've thought about Egg Lay being useful, because it puts you over her, although I never really implemented this. . .
If you're on the same platform as her, be careful not to shield drop into a D-smash. try to make sure you're out of there before she can get on the platform, or wait/rolls/pot dodge (bad options, but you really don't want to drop into the D-smash).
My ideas on neutral: (Super subjective, take with grain of salt.) If you don't go in, she usually will either go for turnips (punish that), or try to approach with float/dash attack. Try to keep a spacing close enough where you can punish a turnip pull, but far enough that you're safe from dash attack (or at least only at risk for the weak part of it). Float is a bit more tricky, although she doesn't really come in quick enough with quote that you can't adjust for it, simply be prepared for her to float. when she floats, take note of her direction and height. Her low B-air eats through your moves, so you probably either want to get over it(if you're pinned), give her space and punish her weaving out. Higher float B-air tries to control your airspace, but can't FC as well, and allows you to get under her, so maybe try U-air/F-tilt/U-smash if you see this coming, or parrying this. You could also try to punish where you think they'll land. F-air is harder for you to give her space because of its range, but has a more strict timing. Sometimes you can hit them before they start this move, punish they're landing, or go above them/below them with an attack based on their height.
Just whatever I remember thinking in the MU. . . This MU is kinda fun to me. I think I combo this weight pretty well, and enjoy the movement. (I also like playing against Puffs. . .)
Some strengths Yoshi has: I think it is obvious that Yoshi has better overall maneuverability, with his run, WD and DJC momentum, although her float offers her a different kind of maneuverability. Your projectile is really versatile in the MU, and great at building damage, and getting her off the ground. (Which limits her ability to FC and D-smash). Her range is about the same as yours, depending on attack, so you have lots of different options to try to get in. When she is in the air, I think you want to either space moves to beat hers (B-air is good to maybe go for a mini combo, U-air goes for a juggle/positioning advantage, or a few other moves), or to bait out her F-air and punish it. I think her other aerials can be challenged by either your U-air, F-tilt, B-air or U-smash.
When you're edgeguarding her, you should try to get her float. Without her float, she can only really go vertical or airdodge. If she initiates her float, you also have the option of placing eggs in front of her, so she wants to go back(I think Leffen suggested this). Don't go too far out there, but if you think you can catch her with an aerial, it usually will only put you in an even better position.
This is one MU where I've thought about Egg Lay being useful, because it puts you over her, although I never really implemented this. . .
If you're on the same platform as her, be careful not to shield drop into a D-smash. try to make sure you're out of there before she can get on the platform, or wait/rolls/pot dodge (bad options, but you really don't want to drop into the D-smash).
My ideas on neutral: (Super subjective, take with grain of salt.) If you don't go in, she usually will either go for turnips (punish that), or try to approach with float/dash attack. Try to keep a spacing close enough where you can punish a turnip pull, but far enough that you're safe from dash attack (or at least only at risk for the weak part of it). Float is a bit more tricky, although she doesn't really come in quick enough with quote that you can't adjust for it, simply be prepared for her to float. when she floats, take note of her direction and height. Her low B-air eats through your moves, so you probably either want to get over it(if you're pinned), give her space and punish her weaving out. Higher float B-air tries to control your airspace, but can't FC as well, and allows you to get under her, so maybe try U-air/F-tilt/U-smash if you see this coming, or parrying this. You could also try to punish where you think they'll land. F-air is harder for you to give her space because of its range, but has a more strict timing. Sometimes you can hit them before they start this move, punish they're landing, or go above them/below them with an attack based on their height.
Just whatever I remember thinking in the MU. . . This MU is kinda fun to me. I think I combo this weight pretty well, and enjoy the movement. (I also like playing against Puffs. . .)
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
nicknyte comes out of retirement today.. xD
and streaming again finally! - http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman
and streaming again finally! - http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman
Jackie
Smash Journeyman
Peach matchup is so tough for Yoshi. From my experience, the two most important things to get comfortable with this matchup are up air and eggs. They won't win you the match, but utilizing those at every chance will go a long way. A Peach that can properly space forward air is one of the best things in this game, really... a Peach that knows to abuse hitboxes and priority helps a lot versus Yoshi.
If a Peach isn't great at reacting, you can get away with short hop egg lay more than in many other match ups. Forward air has a funky hitbox and startup animation that most players aren't fully familiar with, kind of like Falcon stomp. It's really something to abuse against players unfamiliar with Yoshi.
With most characters that I play, I follow a basic percent strategy. Go for safe damage until 30-40%. For fast fallers, once they reach this point, you can trade hits to get a nair or whatever to knock them down and get a tech chase. For floaties, this is the ideal percent to go for a clean planned hit that will lead into a combo that will build the damage to 80-100% where you can kill them. For medium weights like Marth and Sheik, it's a more awkward combo of both and you have to play more situationally.
To summarize the previous paragraph but in regards to Peach, you have to have superb spacing to get chip damage and punish any Peach negligence with egg lay and egg throws. Once she's at about 40%, go for a traded nair to stun her into a continuous nair flurry, or ftilt to start that combo if she misspaces. Once you get her to around 90%, she's quite vulnerable to a good dashdance into smash or tricky/gimmicky edgeguard.
If a Peach isn't great at reacting, you can get away with short hop egg lay more than in many other match ups. Forward air has a funky hitbox and startup animation that most players aren't fully familiar with, kind of like Falcon stomp. It's really something to abuse against players unfamiliar with Yoshi.
With most characters that I play, I follow a basic percent strategy. Go for safe damage until 30-40%. For fast fallers, once they reach this point, you can trade hits to get a nair or whatever to knock them down and get a tech chase. For floaties, this is the ideal percent to go for a clean planned hit that will lead into a combo that will build the damage to 80-100% where you can kill them. For medium weights like Marth and Sheik, it's a more awkward combo of both and you have to play more situationally.
To summarize the previous paragraph but in regards to Peach, you have to have superb spacing to get chip damage and punish any Peach negligence with egg lay and egg throws. Once she's at about 40%, go for a traded nair to stun her into a continuous nair flurry, or ftilt to start that combo if she misspaces. Once you get her to around 90%, she's quite vulnerable to a good dashdance into smash or tricky/gimmicky edgeguard.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I know I said this before, but if you can figure out how to get some of those broken 30% dairs into your combos, it will make life a lot easier, especially vs. floaties who Yoshi players currently just single or double hit a million times until they are at KO percentage. Watch some Hbox vids for inspiration on how he uses dair.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I feel like in most situations you can use D-air, you won't be able to follow up after, and it is hard to set up, so I usually go for something else hard to set up, like a F-air, which will also do 30% if you can get and move after it, and has potential for more. The only situation I can think of is when you can't go to the ground to start a new attack, so really high (I don't plan on jumping over a floaty to start a D-air), or offstage. I think D-air offstage is the only time I would really want a D-air, and that is a high risk high reward kind of thing. . .
D-air offstage is pretty good against some characters like Falcon or Ganondorf. You can also use D-air as a reset when they miss a tech on a platform. The main problem with D-air is its long startup; if it was quicker it'd definitely be a very good option that can be used more frequently.
At the same time, Bones does have a point. We should work towards finding more times to use the move. It does an astonishing 44% total (36% in PAL), which is around half a stock for most characters. You can also follow it up with D-smash and U-tilt if timed right. If we manage find the proper ways to integrate it into Yoshi's playstyle, he'll have an aerial version of Peach's D-smash, barring the knockback.
At the same time, Bones does have a point. We should work towards finding more times to use the move. It does an astonishing 44% total (36% in PAL), which is around half a stock for most characters. You can also follow it up with D-smash and U-tilt if timed right. If we manage find the proper ways to integrate it into Yoshi's playstyle, he'll have an aerial version of Peach's D-smash, barring the knockback.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Not ever going to be an aerial version of Peach's D-smash at all.
Fullhop D-air without fastfalling autocancels.
You can only combo into D-smash or F-tilt if you autocancel it, or hit them at the specific % where they tumble (same way Puff's drill-rest works). You can usually do it into jab.
I use fullhop onto the platform to cover missed tech/tech in place sometimes. You can also do it as a janky shield presure. You can try to trick them to jump into it, and if they don't you could probably AC it -> parry or jabs. I've never messed around with this too much.
If they're on a platform above you in shield (like they're afraid of you U-smashing them through it), you can try to ledgecancel it. . .
At higher %s you can combo into it with U-tilt, F-tilt and F-air, but I usually opt for more certain damage.
I would rather go for more solid follow ups like N-air, F-smash and D-smash on characters like Falcon. D-air is super situational as an edgeguard, and I just never really bothered with it, always seems like if I could land it, I could also land a better option.
Just my thoughts, and what I've experienced with it. . .
Fullhop D-air without fastfalling autocancels.
You can only combo into D-smash or F-tilt if you autocancel it, or hit them at the specific % where they tumble (same way Puff's drill-rest works). You can usually do it into jab.
I use fullhop onto the platform to cover missed tech/tech in place sometimes. You can also do it as a janky shield presure. You can try to trick them to jump into it, and if they don't you could probably AC it -> parry or jabs. I've never messed around with this too much.
If they're on a platform above you in shield (like they're afraid of you U-smashing them through it), you can try to ledgecancel it. . .
At higher %s you can combo into it with U-tilt, F-tilt and F-air, but I usually opt for more certain damage.
I would rather go for more solid follow ups like N-air, F-smash and D-smash on characters like Falcon. D-air is super situational as an edgeguard, and I just never really bothered with it, always seems like if I could land it, I could also land a better option.
Just my thoughts, and what I've experienced with it. . .
Bones0
Smash Legend
Depending on the character's weight and percent, it true combos into plenty of moves. Just a few second in Training Mode tell me that dair to usmash will start to combo on Mario around 110% (probably earlier because I couldn't C-stick). In an ideal scenario with a Puff on a BF side plat at 70%, you can just FH a dair and combo it into usmash for the KO. Obviously the set up has much to be desired, but considering the strength, I think it's worth looking into some setups for dair.
I definitely agree the startup is it's biggest limitation, but I also think there are a lot of instances where Yoshis use moves with a lot of startup (like fair) or use quick moves when they could have committed to a dair earlier and still hit them. Even simple stuff like utilting into a dair instead of trying to juggle them could lead to a lot of good stuff, especially because, like you said, it combos into dsmash or utilt. Just imagine the look on your opponent's face when you sneak in on him with a WD utilt, combo it into FH dair, and then dsmash his ass off the side with horrible DI.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
D-air -> U-smash? Are you doing that at the certain % where it causes a tumble? It doesn't sound like a true combo at all. . . If you're jumping onto the platform you can't be ACing it. . .
If you're trying to combo out of Yoshi's D-smash hoping to get the tumble thing to work, I know you need to hit it at certian %s, and trying to get it reliably hasn't proved to be successful so far (for puffs), so I doubt it is worth pursuing.
If you're trying to combo out of Yoshi's D-smash hoping to get the tumble thing to work, I know you need to hit it at certian %s, and trying to get it reliably hasn't proved to be successful so far (for puffs), so I doubt it is worth pursuing.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Idk what you mean by specific percentages. There is a range where it has enough stuff stun to combo and not too much stun to knock them over. That's as specific as it gets. And Hbox has insane consistency with Puff's dair. Even I can combo with Puff's dair all the time so long as I don't miss the L-cancel. I think you need to go into Training Mode and get a feel for what dair combos into and at what percentages. You definitely do not need to AC it to combo into most moves, and especially not for quicker ones like jab, dsmash, and utilt. I hadn't even thought about trying to AC it (because I'm not very comfortable with the timing for it), but that's a great idea in itself if you can get it consistently, though you will probably only be able to AC it off of a plat I would imagine.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I don't think ive been missing l cancels, and u haven't been able to get dair d smash on players. I haven't really tried it training mode. I was talking about the pseudo tumble thing that allows puff to drill rest. I don't think ive ever seen a puff other than dphanna do that, and he has only done it in demonstration as far as I know.
You can probably do all kinds of auto cancels with it, but fullhop without fast falling is easy and practical. Sh off a platform might work.
You can probably do all kinds of auto cancels with it, but fullhop without fast falling is easy and practical. Sh off a platform might work.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ummm... yeah I have. How would you know what I've been able to do with it? lol The whole thing that sparked my interest in utilizing dair better is when I rest punished a Jiggs with dair -> usmash on the top plat of YS and KOed him at an absurdly low percent. I've since used dair -> utilt a couple times vs. my main practice partner, and I've used Puff's drill utilt/grab/rest on tons of players. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. This board is by far the worst when it comes to fact checking. Not to sound like I'm bragging, but I've had multiple people tell me I'm wrong about stuff in this thread when I clearly was not. I don't understand how you can sit here and disagree with me when all you have to do is go into Training Mode and test it yourself.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Edit: I have no idea how D-air -> stuff works. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't, and trying to calculate with frame data just made things more confusing. . .
My previous post was sent on my phone, and I accidently sent 'u' instead of 'I'. I never misspell 'you' out of laziness, although I didn't proofread either, my bad.
What I meant to say is: "I don't think I'm missing my l cancels, and I haven't been able to get D-air -> D-smash on players."
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My previous post was sent on my phone, and I accidently sent 'u' instead of 'I'. I never misspell 'you' out of laziness, although I didn't proofread either, my bad.
What I meant to say is: "I don't think I'm missing my l cancels, and I haven't been able to get D-air -> D-smash on players."
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V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Bones0
Smash Legend
The flip is only really relevant for Jiggs when she is trying to drill-rest, so idk why you continue to bring it up. Dair's hitstun isn't a constant 9 frames, so idk where you you got that from, but it's wrong unless it's talking specifically about stun in the air or something. The amount of stun is based on your opponent's weight and percentage, just like most moves are. That's why I can dair-usmash Puff at 70%, but not 0%. Obviously your calculations are wrong, which again, you would realize if you would just go into Training Mode and test it for about 10 seconds.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Wow, I was being silly. I forgot to calculate at different %s, ha. The calculations were made with a spreadsheet from SDM and SB, filled with data from master hand, so I'm sure they're accurate.
I'm not sure if using multiple hits makes the move weaker, but I will run calculations, assuming that multiple hitboxes connecting don't weaken the move. . .
Against Puff, if you hit with a fresh D-air, L-cancel and U-smash frame perfectly, it combos at 93% (no CC). That sounds much more reasonable than my previous calculation, my bad. If Puff crouch cancels, it combos at 166%. Although I don't think they should be able to crouch cancel it. . .
Since Puff is the most lightweight of the relevant characters, she suffers the most hitstun.
While I'm running numbers, I guess I'll run a few more. . .
fresh D-air -> D-smash/F-tilt works:
57%+ on Jigglypuff
63%+ on Fox
65%+ on Falco
68%+ on Marth
69%+ on Peach/Shiek
75%+ on Falcon
76%+ on Ganon
Will look at U-smash and other stuff soon. . .
I'm not sure if using multiple hits makes the move weaker, but I will run calculations, assuming that multiple hitboxes connecting don't weaken the move. . .
Against Puff, if you hit with a fresh D-air, L-cancel and U-smash frame perfectly, it combos at 93% (no CC). That sounds much more reasonable than my previous calculation, my bad. If Puff crouch cancels, it combos at 166%. Although I don't think they should be able to crouch cancel it. . .
Since Puff is the most lightweight of the relevant characters, she suffers the most hitstun.
While I'm running numbers, I guess I'll run a few more. . .
fresh D-air -> D-smash/F-tilt works:
57%+ on Jigglypuff
63%+ on Fox
65%+ on Falco
68%+ on Marth
69%+ on Peach/Shiek
75%+ on Falcon
76%+ on Ganon
Will look at U-smash and other stuff soon. . .