Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Kimimaru]

U-smash is also great on FOD while crouching under a low platform if the opponent is knocked down. Since Yoshi's crouch is so low and his head is invincible during U-smash there are literally no options the opponent has to avoid getting hit by it.

 

[Purpletuce]

Haven't added anything useful, mainly because I've been busy with non-smash, and messing around with Falco, Marth, Shiek and Puff. . . those characters are so easy

But, I've been messing around with some things,

On spacies, after a high % DJC U-air, fullhop D-air can combo, and if you don't FF, it'll AC -> D-smash, works at~ 90%+ and is a flashy finish.

If you dash attack into a ledge(platform of edge of stage) then press a button at the right time, you'll get interesting momentum.

Hitting R/L will cause you to airdodge offstage/ledge(not useful) (holding them works like Z, below)

Hitting Z or forward on the joystick will make you maintain just enough momentum to slide off the platform/stage but be directly below the ledge, makes an interesting way to dropzone (if you use this to dropzone EggLay, you can trap some characters under BF, maybe PS, and still recover.) You can also use this to dropzone other moves, but there isn't any reason to use this as opposed to simply running off.

Doing a B move will make you use that move off the ledge (Egg toss grabs ledge with egg, Egg Lay works the same as above, but always starts instantly, and is more safe to not SD with. (but is easier to not SD with) SideB and DownB probably aren't useful)

 

[6VI6]

You just have to hold left or right (or shield, apparently) to fall after a dash attack. Then you can do what you entailed in the rest of your post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0ZA0caN7c

Also a good option is dash attack -> edgehog, using the double jump turnaround.

 

[Kimimaru]

Whenever I edgeguard with dash attack I always do the instant edgehog immediately after. It's great at covering options.

 

[Purpletuce]

I included the bit about simply holding the direction away from the ledge, but the use of inputting a move like Egg Lay instantly is that you can do it instantly, making you have more time to recover. Doing the instant ledgehog is good, but a different thing entirely. If you dash edgeguard at a % where they could recover to the stage, you should mix up between grabbing the ledge (to cover things like sweetspots) or moving back to cover them landing on. (unless they are a character like Shiek where you should grab the ledge because her UpB is easy to punish.

 

[MrHazuki]

Crouching after dashattack also works.

I have only succeded once with this supercool strategy: Dashattacking a Falco as edgeguard on low/mid %, falling off (<,>,shield, crouch), fair immediately (hit!) and make it back to the stage. It's really narrow, but absolutely doable.

 

[Wronskian-Physics]

Yeeeah my game with Yoshi are still kind of bad.
I hate to be lazy but I'm going to just learn a very basic Yoshi for now.
My focus will be on spacing and using that nice DJC he has. Also learn to ECE properly.
Parrying, shield dropping, all that I will work in with time.

Is that a reasonable set of things to focus on or am I missing something important? Any tips on just getting better? -_-

 

[Bones0]

Crouching after dashattack also works.

I have only succeded once with this supercool strategy: Dashattacking a Falco as edgeguard on low/mid %, falling off (<,>,shield, crouch), fair immediately (hit!) and make it back to the stage. It's really narrow, but absolutely doable.

Nair only lasts one more frame than fair (counting IASA since that's what matters for this), and I've done that before. The window is definitely pretty tight though. I wouldn't normally do it because if you miss you're probably screwed, but if the attack will kill them for sure and you are sure it will hit then it is useful.

Yeeeah my game with Yoshi are still kind of bad.
I hate to be lazy but I'm going to just learn a very basic Yoshi for now.
My focus will be on spacing and using that nice DJC he has. Also learn to ECE properly.
Parrying, shield dropping, all that I will work in with time.

Is that a reasonable set of things to focus on or am I missing something important? Any tips on just getting better? -_-

That's very reasonable. I've pretty much learned the opposite way (for all my characters), and it's really frustrating doing 10 innovative things per game and still losing because of fundamentals. I would not advise it.

 

[Purpletuce]

True, although all the cool stuff is well, cool, fundamentals will get you much further much quicker. I would recommend learning how to parry lasers and a decent ability to shield drop as really essential, and although the DJC and ECE are super useful, they are really risky and situational, parrying lasers and shield drops will be useful in different ways.

 

[Jackie]

From the looks of this video illustrating hitboxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igQe3Xkb4u0
Is it easier for Yoshi to parry facing away from the opponent? I always knew it was easier when ducking but didn't realize turning around was so significant.

 

[Bones0]

It doesn't matter which way you're facing because your whole body is invincible as soon as you press shield. The only reason crouching makes it easier is because you can just press shield as soon as they are within range with their attack, and shielding will instantly make you stand upright with invincibility. Facing left or right won't really matter because on the first frame that you shield, your body doesn't really move anywhere that you didn't already have a hitbox. I only skimmed through most of that vid, but what in it made you think the direction you faced mattered?

 

[Kimimaru]

Turning around would in fact be easier because Yoshi's head sticks out when facing forward. He curls up while shielding, though. I'd say it's just easier to get hit from the front so parrying would be harder as well.

 

[Purpletuce]

So this last month I'd played neglected my Yoshi and went to a tourney and might have been doing better (dropped some old habits?) which is good. Got 7th out of 22, could have gotten 5th, but I made too many mistakes. I'll post more about this in the morning, had a lot of interesting matches. . .

I think being backwards might help some in the same way crouching would, if you're anticipating an approach, moving your hurtbox further back, although if you're trying to parry out of something like being techchased, then the difference probably would be little to none (depending on situation)

 

[Bones0]

Facing backwards and parrying doesn't move your hitbox though. Yoshi does curl up, but only after he's already invincible. The only way you could really argue facing away being better is that you may get 1 extra frame to react to an attack, but that seems like a really piss poor reason to try incorporating turn arounds before parries into your game. It's just going to mess you up more.

 

[Purpletuce]

Not really, I think this would be useful to practice. It makes it so your hurtbox is further away from them BEFORE you start the parry, so that if your opponent has a hitbox where your nose would have been, you would get the parry, not get hit. This is also most apparent when trying to reflect lasers. If you anticipate being laser camped, this isn't a bad idea, although it isn't exactly necessary.

 

[Purpletuce]

I was saying that before you start the parry, you'll have moved your hurtbox further back because your nose wouldn't be out there as much, so if someone put a hitbox with your nose would have been, you could still parry it. It also makes reflecting lasers easier because Yoshi has a sweetspot above his back that makes it easier. . . Turning round only seems worthwhile if you're being projectile camped though, not so much out of being techchased.

So in the tourney I played in I got 7th out of 22, should have gotten 5th. I beat a Pikachu/Peach, Doc, and a Peach, lost to a Falco and a Marth. A little bit about each of the matches. . .

My Yoshi was out of practice for my first set. I couldn't do anything, my shield broke from failing to shield drop. (once I warmed up I was fine though, I just shouldn't have gone in cold.) Lesson Learned. . . (also SDed while trying to ECE)

The Pikachu MU seems to be in Yoshi's favor, and the guy didn't play the MU very well, I 4-stocked him. Then he went Peach, I found that I did better in the Peach MU by slowing down and racking % with Eggs and cautious B-air and U-airs. As always, CC and jumping into platforms proved to be terrible ideas. Spacing with F-smash seemed to do well. The game was close, he got 2 stiches, but it was 2-0.

Next I played a doc, this was really interesting. B-air to U-air (maybe more U-airs) was amazing, so was F-smash/Dtilt spacing. Yoshi's maneuverability was super useful, and I noticed I could use B-air to take out pills decently. When I was at high % they would go for F-air and D-smash often, and I would parry those, this was super useful to change momentum. The top platform was pretty useful because Doc would have to try pretty hard to get up there safely. D-tilting them off the stage set up for easy edgeguards, following up with a low egg made easy gimps. When they try to recover high with pills, you can hit both them and their pill with the same egg.

When going against a Peach main, I was on Yoshi's, and using U-smash on the center part of the lower platforms was super useful. Peach didn't have an answer to U-air, and chasing her float with eggs was pretty fun. F-tilt set up for solid 1-2 combos, which added up quickly. This MU was about outmaneuvering Peach and getting under her.

My last match I lost to a Marth. I made several mistakes with ECE and DJC, but it was ok. I found that shielding on the top platform was safe as long as he didn't land on a side platform first. When they DJ -> U-aired my shield I would just shield drop -> N-air him, which created much needed openings. Forward smash worked will to push him into an area, but i don't think I mixed it up with grabs enough. Edgeguarding him like Doc worked decently. It was hard getting around his big sword. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

Dash attack is a good mixup against Marth players that like to use a lot of aerials. It also gives you frame advantage when it clanks with his F-smash and you can often D-smash him right out of it. It's also a pretty good edgeguarding tool against him. If he likes to bait you to attack his shield so he can shield grab you, use Egg Lay to condition him so he's forced to change up his play in your favor. Also remember to DI his F-throw properly because double F-throw at 0% doesn't work on Yoshi with proper DI.

EDIT: Thanks to that new video by yoshiamsa, we can see that a perfect reverse Egg Roll from the edge is invincible until the 2nd frame you land on the ground. This is great because most people will try to hit you while you're still performing the move and miss because you're still invincible. I'm on spring break now and have no one to play for at least a week so I'll test how this works when I get to play with people.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yay my computer is fixed and back, and wow the boards ><;

Good stuff Purpletuce, on your tourney stuff.... Pikachu v Yoshi isn't in yoshi's favor though.. as much as I'd want it too tho >> 50/50 at best... then again the ONLY pika experience I have is Axe, so my grading might be a lil high... >.>

So much I missed.. Parrying, conversation.. Bones is here now.. haha epic!

And Yeah Amsa, we've been chatting quite alot... He has more videos I believe he could show that may help on some things.. he's a real cool dude ^^

 

[Ryobeat]

Guys, Im trying to pick up yoshi for fun, but I need some help. What are some fundamental punishes of Yoshi's? And to double check, Parrying is the double jump inwards after jumping away, right?

 

[Bones0]

Learn to DJC aerials in all the different ways, and especially practice DJCing uairs for juggles. Parrying is the first 6 frames of Yoshi's shield which can be JCed. What you described is DJC armor, but the direction is irrelevant. Any time Yoshi is in a DJ, he cannot be knocked really far, and he will only get knocked over at all at higher percents and from strong moves.

 

[Purpletuce]

Parrying is also useful because it doesn't have hitstun(but gives it to your opponent), can't be grabbed, and can reflect projectiles. There is a ton of information about it, look at either the general Yoshi guide or the guide specifically about parrying. I don't know for sure what you're talking about, you're either talking about changing your momentum with your DJ, or you're talking about using double jump-landing to turn around. . .​

​

Read up on the character, but more than anything, learn how to play him from experience. Using his strange shield and recovery isn't easy to explain, you're better off just using him and letting it come naturally.​

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Also, Ryonbeat, I'm glad you changed your avatar. It was literally the avatar I liked least on SWF.​

 

[Ryobeat]

LOL why the avatar? well, thay doesnt matter much. And i didnt know there was a yoshi guide, thanks guys!

 

[Bones0]

Parrying is also useful because it doesn't have hitstun(but gives it to your opponent), can't be grabbed, and can reflect projectiles. There is a ton of information about it, look at either the general Yoshi guide or the guide specifically about parrying. I don't know for sure what you're talking about, you're either talking about changing your momentum with your DJ, or you're talking about using double jump-landing to turn around. . .

Read up on the character, but more than anything, learn how to play him from experience. Using his strange shield and recovery isn't easy to explain, you're better off just using him and letting it come naturally.

Also, Ryonbeat, I'm glad you changed your avatar. It was literally the avatar I liked least on SWF.

Parrying doesn't have hitstun because you're not getting hit. You're thinking of shield stun and hitlag. It also doesn't reflect projectiles. That's just regular PSing.

 

[Purpletuce]

I said parrying doesn't have hitstun and can reflect projectiles. I'm not sure if you're just being dumb and thinking you're correcting me, but proving my point, or just don't know what you're talking about. Either way the whole routine is getting boring. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

Don't take it personal, Purpletuce. What Bones is saying is that parrying doesn't have hitstun because hitstun is what you experience when you get hit. In the case of parrying, you don't get hit because you're invincible, thus you don't have hitstun (which is exactly what you said but Bones was simply clarifying).

You can't reflect projectiles with parrying; you absorb them because you're invincible. You can only reflect projectiles when you powershield them. You have to shield to parry and powershield so the difference is subtle. I'm still not sure how Yoshi's powershielding works.

 

[Purpletuce]

The PS timing is within the parry timing, so you can reflect projectiles with a parry. Which is what I said. I didn't say that parries always reflect projectiles, I said that they can.

Yoshi still doesn't receive hitstun while he is parrying.

 

[Bones0]

The PS timing is within the parry timing, so you can reflect projectiles with a parry. Which is what I said. I didn't say that parries always reflect projectiles, I said that they can.

Yoshi still doesn't receive hitstun while he is parrying.

I was just trying to clarify since you worded everything so horribly. Saying a parry doesn't have shield stun or that you can parry projectiles is like saying a square is a rectangle. The statements may technically be true, but if you're trying to explain to someone what a rectangle is, telling them a circle is not a rectangle and a square is doesn't really help their understanding of it. It's pretty obvious your statement implies that the entire parry reflects projectiles which is not true. You also only complicate parrying even more than it already is by saying it doesn't have hitstun. Yoshi's ledge grab also doesn't have hitstun, but why would we bother to point that out? It's completely irrelevant to how grabbing the ledge works.

Idk what it is with Yoshi players getting butthurt over getting corrected when they say misleading or outright wrong statements.

 

[Kimimaru]

Moving on...

I have trouble against campy playstyles (this is generally the case in smash 64 with me too), especially Falco players that just sit under a platform and SHL until I get near and then D-air -> (70% combo here). Aside from PSing lasers/parrying D-air (I'm still working on my parry punishes), what else should I be doing?

 

[Bones0]

You could try to fair them through the platform, or you could just spam eggs. I suck vs. campy players too though. Yoshi's approach is definitely the weakest part of his game.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Defensive opponents need to be out-patienced or fooled into a false opening. If you can deal with the camp, like falco lasers by powershielding and using platforms then I would recommend doing so while slowly trying to gain control of center stage. Leaving yourself "open" by jumping into the airspace around them (or something along those lines) may give a chance for some standard DJCC stuff that will definitely keep the opponent guessing.
In cases where the opponent beats you out with speed, or completely out ranges you (read: fox, marth) experiment with highly passive/non-committing approaches or mess around with egg-lay/egg toss.
I wholeheartedly agree that approaching a campy player with yoshi proves to be difficult. I need to work on that some more. I enjoy just wavelanding around platforms while the camping opponent does their thing, but it usually gets me nowhere.

 

[Kimimaru]

I don't really have problems with campy Marth players since Marth doesn't have a projectile to rack up damage or stop you in your tracks. You can also make him whiff an F-smash or something, which is much easier than catching Falco in his D-air landing since it has less lag.

Which stage's platforms does F-air go through?

I really need to work on my PSing/parrying consistency so once I get better at it I should be having less trouble against campy players. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Bones0]

Marth is the hardest for me to play, which is especially bad since I play Marth 90% of the time and can usually **** up random Marths with virtually any character. Sure, if they're bad they'll throw out an fsmash and you can punish, but barring that, they can just space fairs and it's extremely hard to get in. You can throw eggs, but he can just hit them away. DJCing aerials almost never works because as long as he has room he can DDWD back and grab your landing. The ONLY way I'm able to reliably get in on Marth is to run in and parry either the rising or falling fair in a SHDF and immediately DJC nair/uair. Other than that, all my approaches are random WD in dtilts and CC punishes that only work if they miss their tip spacing.

 

[Nogzor'z]

I find my self trying things like WD in > jabs on marth. Since yoshi's wavedash is so dang good, it reminds me of how wobbles controls his ICs.

 

[Kimimaru]

Purpletuce are you going to the Norcal Regionals? I want my fellow Yoshi players to represent!

 

[Purpletuce]

Probably not, I have no money and there usually isn't any carpools to Norcal from Oregon. I think I've heard of it happening once. Our best/most influential player is ex-WA, so most interest in going far for bigger tourneys tends toward going to WA. I would like to go to something in Norcal sometime though. . .

Edit: I figured I'd let you guys know, I just got a job as a lab tech, which is super exciting. Unfortunately that means I'll be pretty busy this term, so I might not have too much time for smash. Also, our monthly venue just closed. I'm wanting to start running tournaments, but I don't know of anywhere with enough space. Any generic ideas for a venue?

 

[Kimimaru]

Ah, so I'll probably be the only Yoshi there . I hope to make it out of pools this time. I also hope I get some matches recorded, even if they're friendlies.

 

[Purpletuce]

Actually, Zhu came up to the last monthly in WA and some of Oregon's players got a little hype for California, so a trip might happen. Not sure if it will work out for me though. Time will tell. Either way, good luck!

 

[Ripple]

streaming soon.

twitch.tv/ripple884

 

[Ripple]

I got 1st place in doubles at a tournament this weekend teaming with Dart. MArth Yoshi was really awesome

 

[Nogzor'z]

Sounds like a brilliant team. Congratz buddy