Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Nogzor'z]

From what I watched (perhaps 20 mins), your yoshi looked solid. Most the standard techniques seemed on par or even better (your ECEs shone the most). I believe I only watched you play against ganon though, and my own experience with that match is mostly theoretical so I can't really say much on that.

The only things I suppose I was looking for was more fluid movement to be made. This usually comes from using yoshi's better than average wavedash/land on the ground and on platforms, though this might be preference in stlye. I'd like to see your yoshi in other matchups

 

[Bones0]

If Samus is just CCing dsmash (like the very first engagement in that vid), you could probably DJC nair, parry the CCC, and then hit them again while they're still in lag.

@Ripple
I watched all of your Yoshi matches from that session. A lot of awesome stuff. You made me feel bad for not being able to LCEs after that one clip where you did like 80% with all eggs. lol I did notice you didn't parry much which kinda surprised me because it seems like it'd be easy vs. Ganon since his attacks are usually pretty telegraphed and slow (especially the Ganon trademark of spacing with fair). I noticed from my matches that I sort of have two different types of parries that I use. I have one when I am pretty sure they will aerial and I want to counterattack, and then I have another for when I'm not so sure if/when they will attack. The former is the traditional crouch -> parry -> DJC nair, and the latter is just a wavedash back out of the parry. That way if they attack how I think they will, the parry protects me, and if I'm wrong then I'm usually out of their range before anything else can hit me. It seemed pretty useful vs. Fox when he's just DD camping. I would just keep doing parries and WDing back when I thought he might approach, and then if I was right I would be able to react after the WD back and punish their landing. I think there might also be some utility in WDing towards them after parries in order to get behind them. Especially vs. characters that like to overshoot aerials, as they SHFFL towards you I'd imagine you could parry, WD through them, and then attack their landing on their back. I just like this idea because pressuring people's backs as Yoshi means you no longer have to worry about jabbing them to catch shield grab attempts, not to mention if you were cornered at the ledge that you've just taken control of center stage. I just need more time to test this stuff. I think I will get a capture card to record my matches when I go to tournaments so I can study.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Oh yeah... you got the right Idea. I've fiddled with that sort of Parry > WD forward and it does seem to have some use in situations as you proposed.
Parry > WD in general can become a sort of defensive check in some scenarios.

Ganon's attacks definitely are potential parry bait but the punishment for missing is so high that I find myself having trouble getting it.
Probably need more ganon practice.

 

[Ripple]

I can't parry anything really. If I notice I get a parry I just unshield and jab or d-smash

 

[Nogzor'z]

No worries, A good place to start would indeed be trying it on ganon spaced Fairs and Dairs. The chance sort of arises often since yoshi can duck under ganon's jab.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know how shielding works in terms of making sure you aren't hit by the rest of the move? For instance, let's say you have a Falco coming down from a FH with a dair. You parry it and simply waveland straight into the ground. What mechanic prevents you from being hit by the rest of the dair? Does the game just keep track of a separate but identical hitbox for each opponent and then has the corresponding hitboxes vanish after they contact a particular character's shield?

 

[Ripple]

the game keeps track of things that belong to characters (shields&hurtboxes). If an attack hits one of those things it can't hit anything belonging to that character again UNLESS the hitbox disappears and then reappears (all multihit moves) or it hits more than 12 different things.

this is why a weak attack will never hit again if if you hit with a strong hit of a sex kick

 

[Bones0]

Oh wow, cool info. That explains how I hit a Fox twice with the same hitbox after nairing through 6 Ice Climbers.

I guess your 666 friend was right. You do know everything about Melee. lol

Oh, and that reminds me, I believe the wacky PSing thing occurs when you are lightshielding and then right before you get hit you press the trigger down further. So you get hit and technically it was within the first 3 frames of you hard shielding, so the game counts it as a PS. The reason this would be more common with Yoshi is because his light shield doesn't stick out further than his hard shield. Not only does this mean it's harder to tell when you've fully pressed the trigger, but it's easier for an opponent to time an attack right before you switch to hard shield. If you have a Sheik light shielding and she switches to a hard shield, it's hard to time it so that your attack doesn't hit her light shield but still hits her hard shield within the first 3 frames. You also said it happened with Pikachu, and that could be because Pikachu's shield is pretty small even when he's light shielding a little bit. That's my theory, anyway. I'm pretty sure it's at least on the right trail though because I don't recall ever having a late powershield with my R trigger (which is trigger tricked, and therefore cannot light shield).

 

[Nogzor'z]

haha, Very interesting info indeed.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX3GCaU9yA

just incase you ever play cactuar stamina pancake, and you get ness

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX3GCaU9yA

just incase you ever play cactuar stamina pancake, and you get ness

LOL You have earned my first like, good sir. I was planning on just never using the like feature, but now I guess I will just have to remain stingy with it. Also, a heads up, I edited my last post after you posted.

 

[Ripple]

whacky PS stuff? you mean like this?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=848PTT_3Fss

I think I remember what causes that, but it isn't your theory oddly enough.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

 

[Kimimaru]

Yesterday I shield drop -> U-aired a Link under me in between the first and second hits of his U-smash. It's too good.

 

[Bones0]

I like shield dropping in between Marth's nair hitboxes.

 

[Kimimaru]

Vman, Purpletuce, and other Yoshis, are you going to Kings of Cali 2? I might be able to go.

 

[Purpletuce]

Probably not, although I want to go to EVO and Northwest Majors 5 (Northwest Manifest sequel).

Unrelated, but do you know a Kavion Safari? California player who just moved to my town. Haven't played him yet though.

 

[Kimimaru]

No, that name doesn't ring a bell.

 

[Wronskian-Physics]

Forgive me for asking but what are shield dropping and parrying the same?

 

[Nogzor'z]

Nah.

Parrying applies to simply jumping out of shield during the first six(?) frames of yoshi's initial shielding animation. During that time before you jump out your shield can still block attacks. So essentially you block an attack and quickly jump out of shield and act accordingly.

Shield dropping is the act of dropping through a platform while having your shield up. It involves pressing down at a certain rate to fall through the platform. Moving the control stick too fast will trigger a spot-dodge, while too slow will do nothing (tilt the shield for any other character).

I'm sure some other people may be able to explain it in greater detail, but I believe that is what each term encompasses.

 

[Ripple]

I'll be streaming soon. I'll be playing most of the night too so tune in and give me some feedback. I'll let you know when I go live

http://www.twitch.tv/ripple884

>live

 

[Bones0]

I'll be streaming soon. I'll be playing most of the night too so tune in and give me some feedback. I'll let you know when I go live

http://www.twitch.tv/ripple884

>live

I watched the first recording that was 1:46:50 long. A few things I was thinking about when I watched:
- When someone CCs your DJC nairs, dtilt might be better at breaking it or pushing them back as opposed to jabbing. The Fox was doing quite a few CC shines when you naired him. DJC uairing might prevent the initial CC as well since I'd guess it would knock people over sooner than nair.

- I like some of the situations you used eggs in when you were on-stage. You used it to catch people out of approaches at certain distances, and that's something I haven't tried really. I use them almost exlusively on airborne opponents trying to come back down.

- I think you could get away with more dash attacks near the ledge. I've had great success using it for edgeguards where I can't cover the ledge and stage deep enough with smashes, and if you are ever in quick tech chases from the center where they roll away you can push them off really quick and set up gimps and edgeguards.

- You give up a lot of opportunities to start uair chains that lead to almost guaranteed damage. I'm still bad at uairing, but you don't seem to really mess up uairs so idk why you don't combo them into each other.

- I'm pretty sure the Falco matchup is unwinnable for Yoshi if you don't parry...

- Try to be more aware of when you will plat cancel with your double jump or an aerial as you double jump through a plat. There are a lot of situations where you accidentally plat cancel and just sit there. I do this occasionally too, but I have been trying to instinctively attack when it does happen. So like if I double jump to the top plat and try to nair but plat cancel instead, I just tap down on the C-stick to dsmash immediately and hit them with that instead.

- LOL @ that Ganon 4-stock (1:28:00)

- I think Yoshi players in general need to find ways to work dairs into their game. It does so much raw damage, spikes airborne opponents, and links directly into several grounded attacks. Next time I play I am going to try using it for anything and everything to see when I can get dairs and just as importantly, find ways to set up those situations so I can use it as fast as possible. Getting a 30-40% dair, tilting, and following up out of that is ridiculous power that needs to be harnessed much better than it currently is. I rarely see Yoshis using dair, so I'd like to push it to the point where we are utilizing dair once or twice a stock and ending stocks that much faster because of how effective it is. Any approaches dair can outprioritize, any recoveries it can cover all the spacings for, and any moves/traps it can be linked from need to be optimized to the level of the top tiers. I'm talking systematically landing huge dairs every stock because half of our game revolves around it.

- Your name rhymes with nipple.

- Pink Yoshi is ugly.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Haha... Pink yoshi os BCA yoshi though.
When I get time I want to look over the recordings you got there. I was only able to catch a bit of the livestream.

 

[Ripple]

You give up a lot of opportunities to start uair chains that lead to almost guaranteed damage. I'm still bad at uairing, but you don't seem to really mess up uairs so idk why you don't combo them into each other.

I made an attempt to nair more often than uair this time to see if I could net more edgeguards or bad positions for them rather than guaranteed damage.

needless to say, uair is way better

 

[Wronskian-Physics]

I can't offer much critique, but it was fun to watch.

I joined the stream pretty early and the first thing I see is ganon destroying yoshi, followed by you as falcon and marth who you played to great success. I'm thinking "I know where this is going." luckily I know squat and you ended up playing some really cool games with yoshi. Glad I missed doing Materials and Structures homework for your stream.

 

[Ripple]

I'll be streaming again later tonight. check it out around 9 EST.

 

[Bones0]

I wanna see some sick 50% dairs.

 

[Kimimaru]

Thoughts from the tournament I entered yesterday:

Egg Lay is the ultimate Ice Climbers separator, especially if you get Nana in an egg. I prevented any chances of wobbling by putting any of the climbers into an egg and proceeded to wreck the other, trying to get him/her offstage. The person I was playing didn't seem to know how to deal with this because you can't do anything to break Nana out of the egg earlier. Combine this with a great CC game and Yoshi can do well against ICs.

There was a time where I literally put Popo into an egg and D-tilted Nana across and off the stage. This was my first actual ICs experience and it started from me barely losing game 1 to me winning games 2 and 3 with 2-3 stocks left. I feel the ICs MU isn't really that bad for Yoshi.

I need more experience against Jigglypuff. One thing I noticed (but it was too late at the time) while playing that MU is that I wasn't taking center stage. The hardest part is getting past Puff's WoP; what are the best moves to use and how can I get some solid hits in? I imagine Parry -> U-smash would work but I'm not too great at parrying yet.

 

[Purpletuce]

I also want to learn the Puff Yoshi Mu, but both puffs in my region CP me every time, so whatever. One of them is better than me so I think I'm just going to start calling out his Puff for MMs and learn it that way. . . ICs vs Yoshi is pretty bad for Yoshi, but it is terrible if you don't know any way to handle it. . . I think Double IC F-smash/D-smash will kill you out of DJ at ~40%, and B-air will do it like 60%. . . Add in their superb grab game vs your bad shield game, and they can put in work.

 

[Kimimaru]

Try Egg Lay more next time you play an ICs main; I'm sure it'll help. A good ICs main will be cautious to not let Nana get into the egg (once the player realizes how well it separates them), so use that to your advantage. Also if one of the ICs is about to break out of the egg you can always put the other one into an egg . Just be careful around Nana if she's near Popo because she's still controllable even if Popo is in an egg.

 

[Bones0]

When I was playing vs. Puff, I was getting some pretty good results from occasionally tossing eggs into her as she WoPed, and you also don't need to parry. Just running up and JCing usmash can work. You will probably trade a lot, but you should be using it to kill more than anything. If you're just looking for a launcher, I'd try WDing underneath her with utilt.

 

[6VI6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6tesI_px8Y

This is sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikII5yybTy4

Any idea why that happens?

And this guy has some tournament vids up too, he has a pretty good yoshi (was doing well against Gucci, I'll just assume that means he's pretty good).

 

[Kimimaru]

Wow, the first one is really interesting! I didn't know that Yoshi moves around the opponent; that explains why he doesn't get hit a lot of the time! Great finds!

EDIT: This guy is great! I love how he uses eggs.

 

[6VI6]

Yeah I haven't gotten the chance to watch all that much yet but from the few minutes I saw of aMSa vs Gucci the eggs stood out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6wETqklhhM -> might be a good way to practice ECEs!
That channel (SanneDark) also has a few videos of him.

Maybe I should start looking for Japanese videos when I have more time.

 

[Kimimaru]

VMan, Angel, and others, are you going to the norcal regionals in April? I doubt I'm going to enter but I'll likely be around for friendlies. The venue is very close to where I'm currently living.

 

[Nogzor'z]

As much as I'd love to attend a melee tourney two days before my B-day. I'm not sure It would be a good idea with the ways my classes are keeping me busy this semester.
There's always a possibility though.

 

[Kimimaru]

The activity was nice while it lasted . Does anyone want to discuss the Falcon MU? Specifically approaching.

 

[Jackie]

Good Falcons generally fall into two categories: ones that DD camp or one that platform camp because they're good at edge cancelling.

Platform campers are easier for Yoshi, just throw eggs. You can try to uair, just be careful not to get stomped since its hitbox is deceivingly large when he's falling.

Good DD campers/spacers are much harder for Yoshi. Go for safe pokes like dtilt he's at low percent for safe damage. Be very patient and slow approaching. If he likes to spam nair, you can jump and egg lay to outspace him. Once he's ~30% you can trade hits in your favor and go for a hard knock down, using nair/uair/ftilt/dtilt and go to town comboing.

It's easier for Falcon to get clean hits, but easier for Yoshi to combo Falcon to death.

Getting Falcon to shield is amazing for you if you can manage to get him to shield int he first place. Falcon's out of shield game is one of his biggest weaknesses. It's easy to just land behind Falcon and go crazy with DJC nair shield pressure and reacting to his roll.

I find bair really bad in this match up because Falcon and react and space pretty easily. It's alright when they're on a platform shielding because you can try to shield stab, or mid-combo/near an edge because they can DI it poorly so you get a free dsmash.

 

[Kimimaru]

Ah, so my biggest problem in that MU is taking advantage of him shielding. I figured. As a Mario main in smash 64 I tend to stuff Falcon's approaches with U-smash, which works wonders if you know he's going to approach with an aerial.

I also found Falcon's "blind spot," so to say. You can try it out on Falcon players when they come back with a new stock on FD and other stages. Run/wavedash under him as he's SHFFLing to try and hit you, and he'll always miss if he doesn't change up his SHFFLs, but stock invincibility is like 2 seconds so I doubt he will in that time. I always do it during Falcon's invincibility time and it always works for me, even against new Falcon players I've never played before.

 

[Jackie]

Unpatient (most) Falcons in shield will try to stomp out of shield as you land behind them. While DJC is the best option in my opinion since you can follow up easily, I've seen Angel Usmash behind Falcon to catch him out of the jump. I'm not really a fan of Usmash except to kill floaties or if I'm lazy and want to hit someone from under Yoshi's Story or Pokémon Stadium platforms, though.