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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

leffen

Smash Champion
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I think egg planking is one of yoshi strongest tools, and practicing it is very vital

The fact that even shining eggs and so on is very punishable really makes it an invaluable tool

I really agree with the fact that more should use it, and thank you for reminding me, ripple.
I'm gonna be exploring it more and more the next time I play, and I'll post my results.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Sierra Vista AZ
^I second this, and I even know I need to use it more often... sadly though.. I know myself, and I know I'm not going to utilize it more, as I would rather focus on "other areas" of my game....

or as new players would say about Falco.... "omg all you do is laser" I'd take it as translation to yoshi.. "Omg all you do is hide on the edge and throw eggs"... >.>;;

Again it's a personal problem... :(

@Leffen - you should know the results.. :p you're very good at ECE's..:) I know you'll be super satisfied...

(No lie though) I'd probably ONLY ECE/plank from edge if it was 100% invulnerable... like Sheiks/Mewtwo Up+B stall.. kinda idea... but even if perfect... I'm sure theres at least 1 frame of vulnerability...><;;

idk ><
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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^I second this, and I even know I need to use it more often... sadly though.. I know myself, and I know I'm not going to utilize it more, as I would rather focus on "other areas" of my game....

or as new players would say about Falco.... "omg all you do is laser" I'd take it as translation to yoshi.. "Omg all you do is hide on the edge and throw eggs"... >.>;;

Again it's a personal problem... :(

@Leffen - you should know the results.. :p you're very good at ECE's..:) I know you'll be super satisfied...

(No lie though) I'd probably ONLY ECE/plank from edge if it was 100% invulnerable... like Sheiks/Mewtwo Up+B stall.. kinda idea... but even if perfect... I'm sure theres at least 1 frame of vulnerability...><;;

idk ><
I'm really good at it, but so are most sheiks at using their shino stall. What I wanna do is work out how good you can abuse it, as in always going to the ledge if you feel uncomfortable/pressured (through lightshield for example) or at lower percents where a lot of your moves get cc'd.

I wanna use yoshis egg planking similarly to how m2k uses hit planking, if you feel me.


Lightshielding is something I overall wanna use more. Its sooooo useful. Its really hard to lightshield in reaction to an attack coming though, but I've started using a different way of lightshielding, where my finger isn't fully on the trigger, enabling me to push as hard as fast without it ever being pushed down to full shield.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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~5th in state falco is bird, doesnt have a tablet, and didnt go to apex. Are you sure it isn't someone else?

Also, ece is really good.
 

V3ctorMan

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@Purple, Idk who it was.. all he told me was that he was a Falco that you play with ALOT.. he mentioned you by name even before we started playing our friendlies ... so sorry for being dumb >< (it could be someone else, all I remember is "Hey are you Vman?" wanna play some friendlies? I'm ________ that plays with __________ alot... I told him I'd record our games and show him, so he can improve what he needs to work on, and he wants to see how you handle this MU with the style of Falco he plays" His falco was a lil defensive/patient... that's about all i can remember, cuz after that I got called for a doubles match... (me+axe vs redd/bladewise)

@Leffen, yeah I definetely feel you... I'm not sure what you use, but I use Z for lightshielding... like for EVERYTHING... unless I want to full shield (like on a platform for shield drop punishments).. I need to Trigger trick alot more, but sometimes you just don't get to set it up.. so I've adapted myself to not use it at times also (not to mention, I've practiced enough with the parries to not have to necessarily need it, just stricter timings I suppose..) Something you "could" try is using Z, but anticipating an attack... like (insert move here) while holding Z so you get the light shield, rather than a grab) idk.. just a thought.. but this is the mindset i've taught myself.. ^^

I hope everyone does well with the planking stuff, and perhaps... maybe perhaps i'll follow in all of your footsteps, and use it alot more also.. ^^

A random thing to practice for ECE's (something lame I do) is have Axe (Pikachu) just rapid jab the edge while i'm ECE... it's something that's gotten me alot more precise with timings... (that and of course go to like brinstar and practice while lava's coming up) xD but that's TOO strict.. but you get what i'm trying to say.. :p
 

Purpletuce

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Now I'm really curious. I'll ask around. It might be somebody in Washington or south Canada? Yakal kaostar ciz toph brannondorf Ryan j!zzard ratking bird emo Winston? Any of those sound familiar? What did they look like?
 

V3ctorMan

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I know who Kaostar, Ciz, Toph, ratking, and winston.. of those names you mentioned above, and I know it wasn't them...Ummm black hair, glasses, had an accent that I don't recognize (but theres alot of accents I don't recgognize, cuz i'm dumb).... I don't wanna say what I thought his ethnicity is, cuz i'm sure i'll be wrong and I'll offend.. :(

Kaostars a scrub (<3 you Kline) Toph's cool.. ratking is cool, haven't met Ciz, but I know who he is... havent met winston, but I saw him there...
 

Nogzor'z

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I'm glad to see discussion is booming around here. Maybe I can start up with more posts and questions as well.

@Vman, to answer your question earlier I do still play. Classes and life in general have just been keeping me busy enough to where I barely get time to lurk for a bit and post occasionally.

I need to play more people :/
 

V3ctorMan

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Only guess is emo/ Shane but I don't think he went. White eyelashes, Asian? White or pearl controller? This mystery...
Shane went to Apex (Eggz?) he was there, we had to play him+ratking in teams...or another shane? ummm idk about the white eyelashes... but Asianlooking = yes, and idk what controller he had.. he was recording with a tablet... I.B. was recording/holding his tablet to record... after he'd play, whether he won/lost, he'd stay on, asking if someone would hold his tablet to record.. him vs, another premier player) i don't think he was trying to hog the tv.. just wanted to play all the well known players, and get it recorded...)

Uhhh yeah, that's all i remember ><;
 

V3ctorMan

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Angel, you NEED to go to some nationals man... :)

me and you are in a similar boat in which, the players we play are VERY limited... going out there really helps... :) I play in fixed camera mode all day, unless Jackie or Axe visits me.. (which is like once every 2 months) then when you go to a big tourney, and see all your hard work paying off, is such an amazing feeling.. :) I don't even go to AZ things, but cool things can still happen ^^

@Purple, It's not a big deal kinda thing, I just remember you saying you trained with a Falco in the past, and that you had trouble with Falco.. so it triggered my memory of "oh yeah I played the guy that plays with Purple alot" me assuming the guy I played, is/could've been the guy you play with... just one of those, 'oh hey btw moments is all" :)
 

strawhats

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Angel, you NEED to go to some nationals man... :)

me and you are in a similar boat in which, the players we play are VERY limited... going out there really helps... :) I play in fixed camera mode all day, unless Jackie or Axe visits me.. (which is like once every 2 months) then when you go to a big tourney, and see all your hard work paying off, is such an amazing feeling.. :) I don't even go to AZ things, but cool things can still happen ^^

@Purple, It's not a big deal kinda thing, I just remember you saying you trained with a Falco in the past, and that you had trouble with Falco.. so it triggered my memory of "oh yeah I played the guy that plays with Purple alot" me assuming the guy I played, is/could've been the guy you play with... just one of those, 'oh hey btw moments is all" :)
please tell me how you play on fixed camera mode. I've looked up the method of using the altered Master Hand Glitch but it doesn't work for me. HELP PLEASE!!
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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please tell me how you play on fixed camera mode. I've looked up the method of using the altered Master Hand Glitch but it doesn't work for me. HELP PLEASE!!

you go to special melee and click on fixed camera.....

:p
 

Purpletuce

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Yeah, it isn't a big deal, bit the mystery bothers me. It has to be a guy named Winston who I played once. Only falco Ive played that went to apex who is Asian. Solved.
 

EthereaL

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Your postings in the tier list thread.

Is there a compendium of which attacks knock Yoshi out of his superjump, and at which percents?

:phone:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Random question:
Does any else double tap A when super-armoring through attacks? I occasionally super-armored an attack with my DJ but my attack didn't come out because I was in hitlag/stun/whatever. I can't see the downside to double tapping to make sure that aerial comes out. Just a little hint in case no one has thought of that.

If you're still in the mood for critique, I'd love some, but I've gotten quite a bit of critique lately and there are more deserving ones. http://youtu.be/_dqJC8ke7tk?t=35m52s semi-recent set vs a local Fox (who is changing mains from Puff)

Awesome posts, Leffen.

Yoshi boards re so exciting lately. . .
It's cause I started hanging out here. I have that effect on forums. :awesome:

Critique from the eyes of a novice Yoshi:
*coming soon*

I think egg planking is one of yoshi strongest tools, and practicing it is very vital

The fact that even shining eggs and so on is very punishable really makes it an invaluable tool

I really agree with the fact that more should use it, and thank you for reminding me, ripple.
I'm gonna be exploring it more and more the next time I play, and I'll post my results.
Is egg planking any good vs. Marth? I tried it like once and just got dtilted and was like "**** THAT". lol

please tell me how you play on fixed camera mode. I've looked up the method of using the altered Master Hand Glitch but it doesn't work for me. HELP PLEASE!!
1. Hold B the entire time.
2. Press A to select the tag box.
3. Press A again to select "Name Entry" on the same frame that the game tries to back to the menu.

So let's say holding B makes the menu go back on the 60th frame (idk if that's actually the case, but you will just have to get used to the timing anyway). Within those 60 frames, you must click the tag area, then scroll down and select "Name Entry". If you go to the Name Entry screen, you selected it too early. If you go back to the menu, you waited too long to click it. If you click "Name Entry" on frame 60, right when the game tries to go to the menu, it skips to the stage select screen regardless of how many players were selected. If you have a bunch of tags on your memory card, you will not have time to scroll through all of the names. You can click the tag area, scroll down to the bottom, then press (not hold) B to make the selection box disappear. Doing this will make it so the next time you click on the tag area you will start at the bottom of the list. Since you're not used to doing it, I would just recommend getting rid of all your tags. You can have ~6 tags and still get to Name Entry fast enough (you will have to make sure you select the box right after you start holding B).

A new kind of drama for the yoshi boards lmao


btw... why are so many picking up yoshi all of a sudden lol
I can shield drop and PS really well, so I want to show all the Yoshi mains what a mediocre Yoshi can do with ridiculous counterattack abilities. Also, if he's any good vs. Peach I might opt for him instead of Falco just cause I hate that matchup. hehe Idk how good he actually is vs. anyone though.

b attacks break it earlier :)

i'm not sure if its in our best interest to compile such a list tbh
LMFAO

Just to add to that, don't get tipped by any of Marth's moves...
 

Nogzor'z

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yeahh.. name entry glitch all day, every day (unless you have someone else to play).
Double tapping A can indeed help is you try to DJCC an attack but hit A during hitlag/stun (I want to say I do it sometimes).

I want to say most yoshi's just develop a general feel for when their DJ breaks, for all attacks.
 

Kimimaru

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Asking which attacks break Yoshi's superarmor at which percents is similar to asking which attacks break (insert character here)'s crouch cancelling. Think of it as an aerial crouch cancel that is a bit stronger. Sometimes I've even been surprised by what broke/didn't break it, so it'd take a while to compile such a list.
 

Bones0

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His point was people are going to use such a list to gimp Yoshi really early in ways they might not have been aware of if it weren't for a convenient list laying out each option.
 

Purpletuce

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I would like a Bones critique :p

Also, if you're planking, you should try doing the egg faster, you can have as few as one frame vulnerable, and they shouldn't be able to simply d-tilt you.

Kimi and Angel have it pretty well. I also keep in mind it is an aerial crouch cancel, but I've noticed that some moves are especially risky from experience. Also good to know is that Falco's shine always breaks it and Fox's shine will never break it.

Hmm. . . why is there so much Yoshi development? Our propaganda is working! Bwahaaha.
 

leffen

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Double tapping is something that is really useful and I actually haven't implemented it much yet.
It has been on my to-do list but I forgot it along the way. Thanks for reminding me.

If marth is down tilting, you are probably not doing it fast enough. Alternatively, you can just double jump through his dtilt (since its very weak) and then punish him with a fair. You could also mix it up with ledgejump->djc nair (now you have him pinned on the ledge) or get up attack.

In general though, you should throw your eggs in such a pattern where it is hard for him to even get to the point that he can downtilt you.
 

EthereaL

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b attacks break it earlier :)

i'm not sure if its in our best interest to compile such a list tbh
I've noticed that, and I agree.

So, Fair > Fair > Dair is insane for Jigglypuff if you can get the initial hit (you can react 4 frames slower than the average person and still have time to get the chase).

Also, Shield pressure from behind Falcon is safe. DJC nair > SH fair covers everything he can do outside of hold block (and if he does that, Dair).


Edit: Planking with the egg-throw means that you should be guaranteed to get back onto the stage almost 100% of the time...you should be able to control space well enough with the eggs so that the other player doesn't even get close enough to hit you.

Edit2: The double-tapping idea is a good one.
 

Bones0

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I would like a Bones critique :p
[collapse=Game 1: Battlefield]37:11 - Right off the bat, you commit to a DJC nair without confirming your spacing. I think you would have been much better off aborting the entire approach after you WLed off the plat and realized how far away he was from your projected landing. Immediately after that, you dash attack even though he is at 0% and it won't really start any combos or help you out in any significant way. You then throw out a SH bair which doesn't seem like such a bad idea, but I think you again kind of ignored the spacing. Since he was so far away, you probably could have just done the bair in place and let him approach you. Approaching him with the bair like that left you really open to anything because you're counting on him rushing at you immediately without waiting.

37:18 - Sort of right back to the first problem, you commit to another DJC nair despite him being too far away. Even just a few seconds into the game, you should have picked up on his tendency to stay by the ledge. With that knowledge, you should be going for less DJC aerials that land in the center of the stage, and stay more grounded with WDing and looking for potential dtilt pokes or faking an approach while he's at the ledge so he's forced to either jump, shield, or approach you. Another thing you should have picked up on is his tendency to SHFFL nairs. He's not even shining at this point, so parrying should have been a go to option when you realize he's cornered and aerial-happy. You were even crouching already, so maybe you just hesitated on doing it.

37:22 - Another dash attack when he's too low to get knocked over. Kinda funny since Leffen was just talking about this issue with dash attack. I think WDing in with a tilt or running in with a grab would do a better job of attacking in that sort of situation.

37:27 - Obviously you messed up the shield drop, but you didn't have to shield there anyway. I know how easy it is to get caught up into shield dropping, but you absolutely must break the habit of shielding every time you land on a platform. I STILL do this, and it costs me a lot of opportunities. Especially as Yoshi, you don't have to be THAT afraid of stray hits from a Fox, so you should really only shield when you are sure you need to or are just using the parry frames.

38:00 - Try to be aware of situations where your opponent chases you. You'll notice as his invincibility ends he is still in the chasing mentality. He drops down from the top plat to chase you, and shields when he realized you could have easily DJCed onto his shield and laid on the pressure. Whenever you notice people overextend, do your best to push as fast as possible, and even if you don't think you can get to them in time, you can just DD grab and catch them holding shield.

38:10 - You did another one of those approaching bairs that will only work if he rushes you wrecklessly. I'm guess your main practice partner rushes at you relentlessly? lol Then you did another dash attack that failed to knock him over. I think if you just substituted WD into tilt/dash grab in for dash attacks at lower %s you'll open them up a lot more often.

38:40 - You definitely should have DJCed a nair/uair instead of SH bair when he whiffed that dtilt. At low %s vs. spacies, zoning bairs is going to do a lot less for you (even if it hits) than a solid combo starter.

38:50 - I would just never down-B like that. It looks awful and super easy to punish. I'd recommend coming down with a bair if you can drift far enough that they have to approach from the side, or even a dair if they are right under you. You could ledge cancel either to make sure they don't just punish your landing lag (and Yoshi's DJ lets him immediately change directions after ledge cancels so you can attack if they are just chilling nearby).

39:00 - Another severely undershot bair. CUT IT OUT.

39:38 - If he's going to just keep nairing at you, just take your free DJC aerial punishes. I've always considered "jumping away, DJCing an aerial towards" as a staple Yoshi thing, so it's kinda weird you don't use it.

39:50 - It looks like you had another instance of "I shielded when I landed on the platform cuz shield dropping is fun". lol

41:10 - He's just doing the same predictable nairs he's been doing. I think you should worry a little less about hitting him, and a little more about moving around unpredictably. Once you get moving with DDWDing, opportunities to attack will present themselves more easily than picking a single move and forcing it into the situation (looked like you wanted to fair in this case).

41:18 - Another gross down-B. You had plenty of space to land into regularly.

41:20 - Just throwing out a fair hoping he runs into it. Again, I would focus more on your movement if you feel like you're doing this. If you are going to wall with moves like that, you need to make sure you're as safe as possible. Be ready to parry upon landing so you can either counterattack or WD out to reset.

41:35 - DJCing towards him was extremely dangerous. Take the safe route to the open stage so you don't just get hit by easy-mode usmashes as you drift towards him without a decent hitbox to cover you (dair seems good for coming down, but it's by no means godlike enough to compete with Fox usmashs when you're at KO %).

41:40 - I like how you did that fair late so you were nice and low to the ground. You just got a little antsy for the jab reset. Assuming you did that correctly, you preemptively dsmashed. Obviously dsmashing is a nice easy way to get him off stage, but I think Vman or Leffen would have taken the uair chain and then knocked him off stage from that. Obviously that's significantly harder so maybe you were just going for the easier option. That's fine if you want to win the match, but at the same time you have to realize that it was a sub-optimal option. I might be wrong though. Maybe knocking Fox off stage at 30% from a jab reset is worth the edgeguard opportunity (especially on FD where he has no plats to use). Hopefully someone else can clarify which would likely be better.

41:50 - Now THAT is how you come down from the air as Yoshi. Drifting away and threatening DJC nair. One of the best vertical recoveries in the game if you ask me.[/collapse][collapse=Game 2: Final Destination]42:17 - This is another situation where I would have just jumped away and DJCed an aerial back at his (poorly spaced) nair. You did that bair again (which doesn't seem to have very good priority, especially when approaching).

42:27 - I'm about to cry if I see you put your Yoshi through any more unnecessary punishment by using down-Bs mid-stage.

42:35 - Once again, he's pinned at the ledge and he doesn't even have plats to use, so he FHs a bair. A simple jump away, DJC aerial as he lands would work, as well as a parry.

42:55 - Just a bad punish out of that fair. I think most people use ftilt/utilt after grounded fairs. I think Leffen actually mentioned 0% fairs a few posts back, so check to see what he starts his combos off with in this situation. I also hate how you basically give up all the pressure opportunities by throwing those eggs. Even if they hit, like, so what? I'd opt to tech chase every time. Knockdowns are often what determine wins at high level, so throwing away opportunities to capitalize on a knockdown is just a bad idea.

43:00 - Could've jab reset him from that ftilt.

43:35 - Jab reset! :c[/collapse][collapse=Game 3: Fountain of Dreams]45:05 - Dash attack at 0%... awful down-B from a million feet high... >_____>

46:30 - Shielding cause you landed on a plat... I know dat feels, bro. But stop.[/collapse]
0 grabs attempted, 0 throws... for the entire set...

^This is a serious problem. Use that Z button, bro.
 

Purpletuce

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Thanks a ton for the massive amounts of feedback. I also do play against several really aggressive players in my home town. (Might also explain how I'm defensive in playstyle.)
 

Bones0

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No problem. Yoshi should really punish that level of aggressiveness though. Work on your WDing back, jumping out of the way then DJCing back towards them, and parrying. Once you start shutting down their approaches constantly, they will be forced to play smarter and you can get some decent practice on actually zoning/approaching/grabbing. Also, if I didn't mention it in my other post, I am NOT really a Yoshi player. If anyone wants to correct something or offer better advice that'd be helpful. I don't want to be spreading misinformation. LOL


Unrelated:

I'm sure most people are aware you can platform cancel by nairing right as you pass through a plat with your double jump, but if you DJ towards the edge of the platform, you can actually edge/teeter-cancel so you can get a move out even faster. Not a big deal, but it could make a huge difference if you are barely linking a combo. Like if you uair at mid-high %s on a side plat on YS and they DI across the stage, you can WD off the plat, DJ towards the other side, nair to plat cancel, ledge/teeter-cancel on the opposite side of the top plat, and then utilt/usmash to continue your combo or KO them. :awesome:
 

Purpletuce

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I think the term aerial land is more appropriate. Platform cancels are when you use a move so quickly after dropping through a platform you land on that platform again. Yoshi can only do this with his U-air. (The first stock in the first set you can see me doing this from a shield drop -> U-tilt)

Also, most of your Yoshi advice is probably obvious things like me downBing in reallly obviously bad spots (makes me cringe watching it, I don't know what I was thinking, although one time I simply missed the ledge) but most of your advice is general stuff, which is universal.
 

Purpletuce

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I don't follow, what is hilarious? Also, my previous post is hard to follow. I was trying to say most critque will apply toward universal things, like when I'm B-airing for no reason.
 

EthereaL

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Do you know how many frames there are from the time Yoshi lets go of the ledge until he re-grabs (with his egg-plank) ?

Edit: Just something to note, if you lightshield an attack and get pushed off the edge facing forward, you can still auto regrab with your double-jump.
 

Ripple

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Do you know how many frames there are from the time Yoshi lets go of the ledge until he re-grabs (with his egg-plank) ?

Edit: Just something to note, if you lightshield an attack and get pushed off the edge facing forward, you can still auto regrab with your double-jump.
frame perfect, egg plank takes 23 frames
 

Kimimaru

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So that capture card I ordered turned out to be horrible, not surprisingly, and I returned it the same day. Does anyone know any good ones that are easy to set up and are decently priced?
 

Kimimaru

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That looks amazing, but I don't think any of the TVs my friends have support component cables, only composite :(.
 

EthereaL

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Yesterday was the first day I realized that forward momentum always teeter-cancels you on a platform / edge if you let go of the joystick, and it's thanks to Yoshi. Haha I've been spending all of these years trying to wavedash incredibly precisely so I wouldn't fall off.
 

Purpletuce

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Saturday I went to the zoo with my girlfriend because we didn't have time on valentines day, and I managed to go to a tourney. Was too late to enter, but I managed to play some friendlies. I got one really cool kill, A fox was going down to the ledge in his firefox, but I beat him to it with my DownB, then I hit him offstage twice with ECEs then downB stalled > invincible N-air. It made me happy. I also realized that my Falco is getting decent even though I've like never played him. I'm going to try practicing him for 24 hours before the next monthly. He seems super easy to be consistent with, and super simple. PRobably the best way to improve. (Less fun than Yoshi IMO though)
 

Bones0

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Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I wish I could LCE properly. I can do it pretty well when I'm practicing, but then as a CPU is trying to recover, my brain just explodes trying to drop, jump asap, time the B press, aim the egg, and time the release. I realized how bad I was at it when I saw Vman do this in the Links vs. Stinks crew battle: SUPER DEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!
 
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