Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Kimimaru]

There's about a week left until the Norcal Regionals. Any special tips on the Samus MU, aside from the video Angel has?

What should I be doing in the neutral game, and what are the best stages to CP against her?

 

[Ripple]

you're neutral game should consist of lots of feints while youre in the air until you can land egg lays.

once you have a lead, spam eggs from the ledge until she approaches.

 

[Kimimaru]

Are there any specific moves I should be using a lot against her?

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't think Egg Lay should be used much in this MU. You can't really combo her, so most of your hits will be from positioning. B-air and U-air are good at being safe and racking up damage. Sometimes you can work a N-air in (mainly after B-air) for a mini combo. I think that you shouldn't spam eggs unless you have to. Samus likes space. I would focus on taking up stage then forcing her out. She falls slowly so getting under her makes it easier for you to U-air/U-smash further up than for her to get down. U-air/U-smash are good for higher % kills off the top. When you're spacing against her, beware her deceptive U-tilt, it is better than it looks. Your F-smash is good for making big openings, mainly if you can get a spacing kinda read, when you know where she'll be. F-tilt is more safe for openings though. D-tilt is the safest, but you usually won't get much.

If she goes off the ledge, keep track of if she has her tether, she only gets it back when she stands on the stage, and she loses it if you egg her as it is coming out. Try to egg her when she recovers, you can go for her top bomb which is good if she is low, because she'll fall too low. If you know they'll recover, hit her with eggs to send her up, and all she can do is DI in or air dodge. When she is close, go back to B-air / U-air.

All of this is my experience between playing a local player, The Prime and Violence, and I have close games with the later two, and beat the first.

 

[Nogzor'z]

How is the Yoshi representation looking for EVO?

 

[Kimimaru]

I won't be able to make it to EVO, sadly. Are you going?

 

[Nogzor'z]

It is looking like a possibility. Depends on vacation timing with the famz.
If I don't end up entering, I'm looking to at least go to spectate.
Pretty excited about it regardless.

 

[Kimimaru]

Yesterday was great! I got to play Axe, Silent Wolf, S2J, and several others for the first time.

They used bracket pools because EVO is using them. I beat Alan the first round but lost to Axe and Hydrokirby after. Here's what I observed:

-Battlefield is a good stage to choose against Sheik because there isn't as much room for her to chaingrab you on the bottom floor; also, the platforms make it easier to avoid grabs
-Well-thrown eggs go right through turnips
-The Peach MU isn't as bad as it looks as long as you play patiently and efficiently
-Yoshi, despite his flaws, can be a viable character but is held back by both a lack of players willing to use him and his insanely high skill-floor

 

[Purpletuce]

Yesterday was great! I got to play Axe, Silent Wolf, S2J, and several others for the first time.

They used bracket pools because EVO is using them. I beat Alan the first round but lost to Axe and Hydrokirby after. Here's what I observed:

-Battlefield is a good stage to choose against Sheik because there isn't as much room for her to chaingrab you on the bottom floor; also, the platforms make it easier to avoid grabs
-Well-thrown eggs go right through turnips
-The Peach MU isn't as bad as it looks as long as you play patiently and efficiently
-Yoshi, despite his flaws, can be a viable character but is held back by both a lack of players willing to use him and his insanely high skill-floor

I've noticed I haven't had as much trouble as I would think with Peach, although she can be pretty dumb, most of her dumb things don't seem to come up (her ability to D-smash your DJ or pressure shield well don't really become a big factor.) Didn't know anything about the turnip thing, but I guess I never really cared to try beating her in a projectile battle.

The last thing is super general and I think everyone here thinks that, that is we we play Yoshi.



So, I went to another tournament, placed 7th, losing to 1st and 3rd places. Had a ton of fun, beat a guy I lost to last time and nearly beat a guy who I've been trying to beat since my first tourney. I've been working on your DJC U-air juggles, and they destroy Marth (unfortunately for some reason I was too afraid to go for them today in tourney.) I learned quite a bit about the Puff MU today, will add thoughts about it later. I messed around quite a bit with DJC turn-around. (ex: run -> turn around -> SH B-air) it is fun, but not too huge of a deal. I tried some creative parries, I'm still bad at them on most moves. . . Also, I lost a MM to a Luigi, his priority breaks most of Yoshi's stuff. . . Just thoughts. . . I'll put some things in later.

 

[Kimimaru]

In the Luigi MU I like to just stand there as he's wavedashing around and D-tilt if he attempts to close in. If he jumps you should be able to react to it with U-smash, F-smash, or something else. In the air almost always go for U-air since it'll beat out most of his options and keep you in positional advantage.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yoshis will most definetely be at Evo...

Confirming myself also...

Glad you guys got to play the amazing Axe.. =D
Wish he would've done better, but i'll get him into shape.. n n;

Also Angel, Happy Birthday Angel, My yoshi brother.... funny

My birthday is tomorrow.. <--- I just tried to spoiler tag and idk where to find it.. xD

Yoshi players with close birthdays..

 

[Bones0]

Yoshis will most definetely be at Evo...

Confirming myself also...

Glad you guys got to play the amazing Axe.. =D
Wish he would've done better, but i'll get him into shape.. n n;

Also Angel, Happy Birthday Angel, My yoshi brother.... funny

My birthday is tomorrow.. <--- I just tried to spoiler tag and idk where to find it.. xD

Yoshi players with close birthdays..

Just type (collapse)(/collapse), but with brackets instead of parentheses. Like so...

Spoiler

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

 

[V3ctorMan]

Bones, I'm not smart.. =/ I miss the icon button... Icons require me to do less work.. haha

<3

 

[Nogzor'z]

hah

Spoiler

Happy birthday, Tim / VMan

I like how you get 50 trophies for logging in on your birthday.

 

[Kimimaru]

Also I forgot to mention: I got a bunch of more experience in the Samus MU. I played a bunch of friendlies with Violence and won the majority of them, and they were a lot of fun! The MU is all about spacing and racking up damage to go in for the kill.

 

[Purpletuce]

You won a majority of your matches against Violence? Interesting. I played him several months ago, and I think he beat me overall (Although I was warming up my Puff mainly around when I played him.) That guy is no joke, good stuff.

Happy Bday Vman.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Woooot Kimimaru, Axe has told me lotz about you... I'm hype... Yeah Violence is good... (I've still never played him tho and if we did play violence don't hurt me!! <3) my only other experience vs Samus is vs DJN (we played at P5) and vs Plup.. we played like 10-12 times, and I think i've only won 2, or 3 times.. Plup is really good! <3

Oh and Taj's samus.. duuhh!

Keep up the good work Kimimaru! Hype to see more... and I agree on your gist of the MU vs samus... the MU can be very fun! ^^

woot yoshi talk...

and thanks for the bday wishes everyone.. (I still can't figure out this spoiler thing) <3

 

[Bones0]

Woooot Kimimaru, Axe has told me lotz about you... I'm hype... Yeah Violence is good... (I've still never played him tho and if we did play violence don't hurt me!! <3) my only other experience vs Samus is vs DJN (we played at P5) and vs Plup.. we played like 10-12 times, and I think i've only won 2, or 3 times.. Plup is really good! <3

Oh and Taj's samus.. duuhh!

Keep up the good work Kimimaru! Hype to see more... and I agree on your gist of the MU vs samus... the MU can be very fun! ^^

woot yoshi talk...

and thanks for the bday wishes everyone.. (I still can't figure out this spoiler thing) <3

Just click "Reply" to this post, silly. It shows you the code they used.

Spoiler

When's Eggstinction 3 coming?

 

[Kimimaru]

Why didn't you come to the NCR, Vman? We could've had Yoshi dittos!

 

[V3ctorMan]

sorry on NCR, like many.. there's something called $$.. that I don't have.. xD

Uhhh Eggstinction 3 is WAYY too soon... considering II just came out... (im unsure if I could even do a third one) ><;

Anyway, I've been missing like alot lately.. .and i'm glad the Yoshi's have been chatting.... I always have one thing come up after the next, saying i'll be back, then this comes up, then that etc... and now.. I really wanna say I'm gonna be here alot more often...but I don't know if things are going to keep coming up... *sigh* life... anyway, with Evo coming up, is there anything Yoshi's would want to talk about? a specific MU, or information? what's on your mnd guys?

 

[Kimimaru]

What are your thoughts on the viability of intentional DJ lands? I can do them semi-consistently from a variety of distances but always forget about them when I do them unintentionally, lol. I think they're good for follow ups in cases wavelanding on a platform may be just too slow.

 

[Bones0]

If you want to start incorporating DJ lands, I think a good place to start would be using it for parry-tilts.

 

[Kimimaru]

I was referring specifically to DJ lands on platforms, but DJ lands are indeed very useful out of parrying.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, like when you platform cancel aerials? Yeah, that is mad useful. I can use it a little, but it's hard to focus on the aerial timing and the opponent's spacing at the same time.

 

[Purpletuce]

From how Kimi said at different heights, I think he means DJ landing as he jumps through a platform, and I think Bones is talking about jump and immediately DJ landing after.

Trying to clear up potential confusion.

Edit: I didn't refresh so you guys already found out what you were talking about. My bad.

I don't ever really DJL on platforms, I usually opt for Wavelanding on, which gives you more direction to move, and isn't too much slower (DJL is 4 frames, 10 for waveland), but much more consistent.

DJL out of jump is cool, and I think it is useful out of parry (beware, parry -> djl land -> dsmash to punish fox's usmash doesn't always work, his Usmash jumps over it) and has been brought up in this thread like half a dozen times. . . nobody has seemed to implement it too much, probably because it is hard to do consistently, and isn't much better than eiser to do punishes.

You can also use jump -> turnaround DJ landing -> reversed things, such as approaching with B-air. Pretty cool, I like to do that on occasion. DJ turnaround -> D-smash is also a safe way to hit both both parts of D-smash (safe and can poke really well)

 

[V3ctorMan]

is there any sound here..?? i got a new cpu, and can stream again... >< but idk what im doing.. ><

someone help!

http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey V3ctorMan, I just remembered that you forgot to tell me what video recording equipment you use .

 

[V3ctorMan]

right now I have a dazzle... >.>;

I HAD vegas studio.. .>< but no longer.. pinnacle now...

also... if you guys haven't watched.. aMsa's Yoshi.. you NEED to start watching... it's my favorite Yoshi right now... <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebs7kmQS8W0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mAaHzHo8FA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhBslpBoeyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty_NYRT1A54

Hope he comes visits us or something.. ><

 

[Bones0]

also... if you guys haven't watched.. aMsa's Yoshi.. you NEED to start watching... it's my favorite Yoshi right now... <3

That's 'cause you haven't seen MY Yoshi. :3

I'll try and sneak some Yoshi friendlies on stream at Xanadu tomorrow. I'm just not sure you guys are ready... I know I'm not... lol

 

[V3ctorMan]

lmao awesome bones..! also..

stream!!

http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman

 

[Kimimaru]

Just a little note for all Yoshi players: Don't be afraid to try a U-air when under your opponent unless you already used your double jump and a trade will knock you off the stage. The hitbox for it will either beat or trade with anything else.

 

[Purpletuce]

^ Definitely false. Be afraid to go for a U-air if you're below an opponent unless you know your U-air is better than their D-air. Falco, Falcon will usually beat your U-air, and will probably result in you giving them an opening on them, but only taking like 12%. Marth and Ganon can also beat your U-air, but they're D-airs are slow, so you can try to fake them out. (I like to mess around with jumps so they can't really tell when I'm going to commit to chasing them.)

Don't be afraid to go for U-airs if you're chasing floaties with problems getting down. . . I think it is most clearly useful on Luigi, Peach, Zelda etc. some characters make it harder because they're maneuverability (Puff for example), but you can still use it on them. I've actually been doing this often. . . Also, mix in U-smashes and F-tilts with the U-airs, they're both good at juggling floaties as well. . .

I don't think it is fair to really say any Yoshi is a favorite to watch. Most Yoshis do pretty good at introducing new ideas for me, which is the main reason I watch other Yoshis. For example, Vman is the most interesting to watch for technical/frame trap/fast play, Angel probably has the most easy to see fundamentals, and solid move choice/zoning, Leffen has super creative option coverages, good risk/reward (when to go for reads or not) and positioning. Since Yoshi si so unexplored, it is pretty good to watch new playstyles.

I haven't seen any of my videos from the last tourney up... I'll try to get some up soon. Although I did some silly stuff and wasn't on point(at one point I was panicking against a Marth and edgeuarded him until over 200% with eggs, no idea why.) Although I'll share some recent ideas I've been having.

I've been incorporating parries out of situations where I'm in a frame advantage/disadvantage, rather than trying to time it. (after being tech chased or after I hit an aerial on shield) I still haven't focused on the appropriate follow ups, I'm just either WDing for positioning or jumping onto a platform right now. This isn't really a new thing, but it is interesting. . . I would like to discuss some times people do/don't do this.

Vman and I were talking about zoning with F-tilt (combos if it hits, safe(ish) if it doesn't) this is most useful against floaties. I've also been playing with U-smash.

I've been trying to be more aggressive versus Falco, to help fix my problem of losing against the bird in the neutral game. although I can parry lasers consistently, I don't think that is enough, so I try not to get in a position where the bird can just laser me safely.

Trying to recover in more creative ways, like recovering to the top/side platforms, where I can air dodge to either one. Conditioning my opponents for me to jump past the ledge then waveland onto the stage/platform or come in with an aerial/air dodge, then when they try to cover options by taking up more stage, ledgegrab with downB. Stuff like that.

Shield drop N-air. Esp. if FF, is good and safe. Against characters without to much power, shield drop -> DJ nair.

ECE -> creative positioning/out-maneuvering slower characters. Esp. With high angle egg covering the air then dropping down on an opponent, then low egg attacking them (punish them for hitting first egg, more hits on shield if they shield it) then landing back on stage, following the egg. Sometimes also comboing out of it. (against a puff in tourney I did ECE -> ECE -> U-air a couple times)

So that's all the stuff I've been working on lately. . .

Edit: There is a match versus Marth on stream. . . http://www.twitch.tv/extravirgin69/b/396522483, around 22 minutes.

 

[Kimimaru]

^ Definitely false. Be afraid to go for a U-air if you're below an opponent unless you know your U-air is better than their D-air. Falco, Falcon will usually beat your U-air, and will probably result in you giving them an opening on them, but only taking like 12%. Marth and Ganon can also beat your U-air, but they're D-airs are slow, so you can try to fake them out. (I like to mess around with jumps so they can't really tell when I'm going to commit to chasing them.)

Falco's D-air should never straight up beat Yoshi's U-air unless the U-air is spaced poorly; the most it does is trade. Falcon's trades as well, but it'll beat out Yoshi's if you mistime U-air when his feet are up.

U-air is also good in that it has quite a significant horizontal reach and Yoshi turns around so his hurtbox is completely under the hitbox.

About U-smash: as a Mario player in SSB64, I stuff approaches with U-smash. It works especially well against Falcon and some floaties, but like everything else, don't be predictable with it. It's a great move in general, and Yoshi's entire head is invincible for a longer duration than the hitbox itself, which is deceptively long.

 

[Jackie]

Yoshi's uair is awesome against Falco's dair. You shouldn't be using it when he's shuffling them, obviously. You should only be using it early on to chip or to cause knockdown on a platform for techchase, mid/low percent to continue a combo or to get the kill.

If Falcon's dair is easy to react to and punish rather than trying to trade with it, where it would win.

DJ lands aren't worth learning in my opinion. It's extremely precise and not something you can react to if you miss. You want to do it because it's so fast, yet if you mess up, the stuff you would do is completely different and not what you can react to. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your actions following the DJ land are just muscle memory and dependent on you being successful with the land, which has a high margin of error.

That used to be the train of thought with edge cancels, but those aren't considered so difficult anymore. I don't foresee DJ lands becoming essential, so I'd much rather spend that time on parries and precision with recovery.

 

[Purpletuce]

I agree with Jackie about the DJ lands, although they are cool. Also, I said it will beat your U-air. Against Falco, I consider his D-air trading with you're U-air a win, because he will be falling on you as you go down, which will probably start a combo for him. It is also worth noting that his hitbox has a 6x larger window that it stays out, so he wins whenever you mess up. Overall, I'm pretty sure you have better options than challenging it under the presumption that your U-air will beat his D-air.

 

[Bones0]

A uair trading with Falco will knock him over at pretty low percents, and Yoshi won't get knocked over until a bit higher since he's so heavy. I'd imagine it is a beneficial trade in the majority of situations. If they land on top of you when you are standing and they are in tumble, you get a tech chase opportunity, or what more often, a missed tech that you can jab reset.

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, you will want to try it around 15% - 80% because it will knock Falco down allow you to capitalize with a finishing move.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think saying to always go for U-airs because it can always beat/trade anything sounds really bad, but do as you wish.

 

[Bones0]

I think saying to always go for U-airs because it can always beat/trade anything sounds really bad, but do as you wish.

Good thing no one said that.

 

[Purpletuce]

Just a little note for all Yoshi players: Don't be afraid to try a U-air when under your opponent unless you already used your double jump and a trade will knock you off the stage. The hitbox for it will either beat or trade with anything else.

The hitbox will either beat or trade with anything else.