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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

SheerMadness

Smash Master
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aMSa challenging back to to back dairs with parry, successfully parrying the 1st hit, but getting pwned by the subsequent ones.

@9:15. For whatever reason It ignores the time stamp I included, sorry.


You have to realize he wasn't trying to parry the dairs... I'd assume he does what I do
You're probably right. But you guys have to realize that once a Fox has figured out how to pwn your parries you can't do that anymore.

I struggled with that for a long time in the Fox vs Yoshi match up in ssb64. When the Fox learns the match up they're not going to approach with single hit aerials over drill anymore. Same thing applies to melee.
 
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Dinowulf

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Hey everyone I read the critiques of the last match I posted and I appreciate it a lot with the constant info you guys give me I'm getting better every day. I would like to ask that you guys also check this set out from a new player that joined in my group of players. Thanks.
 

Purpletuce

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aMSa had to make a guess what type of aerial his opponent was coming at him with, and he has probably been conditioned (everyone here probably has) to believe a Fox will be more prone to nairing. A good fox will probably start micing in approaching with nairs if you start beating his dairs. I really do think it is a mix up, where if either player realizes a tendency on the other player, it shifts the neutral toward their favor.

lightshielding Fox's dair -> shieldgrab probably only works if a Fox always shines after a drill (even when they can react to their shine not hitting) and is slow... ideally, a fox can drill your shield, and then when he sees you are out of his shine's range, he should be able to either grab you, dash away(then punish), nair or usmash to beat your grab. Lightshield->shield grab is very slow.
 

Dinowulf

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Hey fellas, got on stream for a match I think I averaged >1 sd per game the whole tournament basic tech skill definitely not on point, but aside from not killing myself any tips? http://youtu.be/m23LrcyePqw?list=PLYqg-o5LTL2XM28ep15Q_wLmBrGdNQC9s
I think you did well. It's kinda of odd seeing someone fight a Donkey kong. My advice for next time would be a lot of Parry grabs into Utilts/uair's. Donkey kong can take a lot of damage before he flies off the stage but with him being a heavy charecter it should be real easy to just keep tilting him up. I also think vs the matchup playing it safe with Egg projectiles from a distance would have been good as well. My guess is DK would use the spinning kong or regular punch to cancel out the eggs and you could go in with a Forward Air (That's what i would do i'm not saying it will work 100% of the time)

One more thing be very careful when trying to bait out the parry as well. I like the parry a lot and it's cool to see done but with the rise of Yoshi's coming around everywhere the matchup is going to be figured out real quick and likely everyone will base the matchup on how amsa fights.

Overall though you did well i loved the shield drops and the Double jump armor counters you did. Also using your double jump to escape the Uair barrage was a good idea as well.

it's a shame commentary wasn't up to pair they might have been able to catch more then what i noticed but oh well hopefully perhapsman and purpletuce will see those and comment there opinions.
 

kofinater

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Ya, I played Green Ranger a good amount when I was up at school so I actually have a decent grasp on the matchup, felt for these games I was really sloppy with tech. As for baiting parries, its definitely something I'm trying to work to do less or at least as soon as I recognize my opponent knows how to counter it.
 

Sashimi

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Some things I've noticed recently about shieldgrabs:

- Delaying the DJC just a bit makes it really easy to cross up someone's shield with Nair
- Nair doesn't have great range, but if you do retreating DJC you can easily outspace shieldgrabs and still be facing the opponent for a punish
- Reverse DJC Nair works too and is easier imo but then you're not facing them
- Bair is also pretty good, even if you can't cross up, but I'm not sure about follow-ups yet

Fair is the obvious move for outspacing out of shield options, but I think Nair/Bair can be nice alternatives in the right situation.


Everyone get the 20XX hack pack if you can. It's really awesome :)
 
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BigglesWorth

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Some things I've noticed recently about shieldgrabs:

- Delaying the DJC just a bit makes it really easy to cross up someone's shield with Nair
- Nair doesn't have great range, but if you do retreating DJC you can easily outspace shieldgrabs and still be facing the opponent for a punish
- Reverse DJC Nair works too and is easier imo but then you're not facing them
- Bair is also pretty good, even if you can't cross up, but I'm not sure about follow-ups yet

Fair is the obvious move for outspacing out of shield options, but I think Nair/Bair can be nice alternatives in the right situation.


Everyone get the 20XX hack pack if you can. It's really awesome :)
If I am not mistaken, bair has really good follow ups depending on weight and % (of course xD), it links with dsmash or usmash. You can also use to carry your opponent onto a platform to have a better position for finishing dmsash or a shielddrop follow up.
 

Sashimi

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What I mean by that is after hitting someone's shield with a safely spaced Bair (but not landing behind them), and the opponent whiffs a grab or something, I'm not sure about the follow-ups, since the opponent is behind you and you're not close enough for a reverse dtilt or anything like that. Usmash might work, haven't tried it in this situation.
 

kofinater

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I've had similar thoughts about cross-ups when messing with the 20xx pack.what I'm working on as far as tech skill is concerned is low rjdc nair so I can dash without the turn around as well as getting the bigger nair hitbox. But it feels super hard, but then again yoshi is a try-hard character. But you can definitely punish whiffed grabs with dash dance grab.
 

Sashimi

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Nope. Perfect DJL takes 7 frames (jumpsquat + 2 frames DJ, no landing animation) so you can only parry once every 8 frames at the most. Dair hits faster than that even with hitlag.
 
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BigglesWorth

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I have been wondering if there any useful frame traps on sheild by using repeated parried djc aerials so that your opponent is not in shield stun, you are invincible, and when you are not invincible you have a hitbox out. Although this makes it seem, frame perfect frame traps might not happen but perhaps frame trap mixups by adjusting aerial timings and multiparries to cause an opponent to always be taking the greater risk out of shield.
 

Tranquility

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Can someone confirm whether the timing on a djc after parry is different or not, seems like I either just miss the 2nd jump altogether or I don't even leave the ground. Been practising and haven't got it right once so far.
 

Sashimi

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Timing is exactly the same, whether your opponent hits the parry or not. Having no hitlag is really nice.
 

Purpletuce

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The real question:

Is this the 100th time djc after parry has been brought up, or the 1000th?

I think everyone feels compelled to post about it when they're learning about Yoshis advanced techniques, and put 1 and 1 together...
 

AquaTech

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I just wanna drop in and say hello to everyone. I went through tonight and read all 62 pages so I feel like I know you all really well.
If Marth and Captain Falcon have been my "karate" type martial artists the past couple years, Yoshi has been my capoeira. Capoeira is a form of martial art where they focus more on fluid dance-like movement over actual hard contact and aggression. For hours I would just float with Yoshi around on Yoshi Island practicing wavelands and wavedashing and edgegrabs... I was inspired to do this by a "Jurassic Parkour" video I saw several years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txtYPiWzCWE&safe=active ... just to see the crazy movement Yoshi was capable of was so unlike anything I'd seen, even compared to Fox's waveshines or Falcon's moonwalk. So I practiced it just to have fun with his movement, and never let it develop beyond that. But I'll admit, seeing everything AmsA has done this past year inspired me to see how competitive he can be. And of course, AmsA made a video himself of some crazy Yoshi tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UufV85QoCVE&safe=active ... some of that stuff I still don't understand. Anyway, I plan on being pretty active here, I'm getting plugged in to an active Smash scene in Austin TX, and want to see how far I can go this year!

Vman (and other successful tourney players) how long did it take you to go from picking up Yoshi, to beating a competent opponent?
 
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MrHazuki

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My first singles tournament with Yoshi resulted in me losing every single match. No wins at all. :p
Now I can beat pretty much every person I could before changing to Yoshi and I have won a few local tournaments.
 

kofinater

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7:3 Fox
6.5:3.5 Peach C.Falcon
6:4 Falco Sheik
5.5:4.5 Marth Jigglypuff ICs

Hows everyone feel about aMSa's matchup ratios? I think it looks about right and I want to add Luigi to the 6.5:3.5 group 'cause that match up seems sstupid hard(but that might be 'cause I play Abate frequently). I also don't think C.Falcon is quite as hard as peach more in that falco/Sheik difficulty. Should we possibly start a new match-up discussion thread? the old ones seem outdated.
 

Kimimaru

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I just wanna drop in and say hello to everyone. I went through tonight and read all 62 pages so I feel like I know you all really well.
If Marth and Captain Falcon have been my "karate" type martial artists the past couple years, Yoshi has been my capoeira. Capoeira is a form of martial art where they focus more on fluid dance-like movement over actual hard contact and aggression. For hours I would just float with Yoshi around on Yoshi Island practicing wavelands and wavedashing and edgegrabs... I was inspired to do this by a "Jurassic Parkour" video I saw several years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txtYPiWzCWE&safe=active ... just to see the crazy movement Yoshi was capable of was so unlike anything I'd seen, even compared to Fox's waveshines or Falcon's moonwalk. So I practiced it just to have fun with his movement, and never let it develop beyond that. But I'll admit, seeing everything AmsA has done this past year inspired me to see how competitive he can be. And of course, AmsA made a video himself of some crazy Yoshi tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UufV85QoCVE&safe=active ... some of that stuff I still don't understand. Anyway, I plan on being pretty active here, I'm getting plugged in to an active Smash scene in Austin TX, and want to see how far I can go this year!

Vman (and other successful tourney players) how long did it take you to go from picking up Yoshi, to beating a competent opponent?
Welcome to the Yoshi boards! It's always great to see another dedicated Yoshi player!

My first significant tournament victory was about 7 months after I started playing competitively. However, I started playing Yoshi since the game came out and have been playing Smash 64 competitively (and still do) since 2006, so I wasn't too new to the character or the competitive mindset. However, entering real Melee tournaments was something I have never experienced before I started playing competitively and it has drastically improved my game.

Make it a priority to attend as many local tournaments as possible and never stop practicing your tech. Try to get tournament sets of yourself recorded so you can see how you're playing and know where to improve. We can help you with that as well. Best of luck!
 
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Purpletuce

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Sorry if I'm sometimes negative. Get frustrated with this game sometimes.

AquaTech, interesting how you got into Yoshi. I got into him in essentially the exact same way. I'd say a little after a year of playing Yoshi I started beating some names in my scene, and then shortly out of that took out some names out of state. If you already have some fundamentals down from past competitive experience, you may get faster results. (I started playing Yoshi shortly after trying to play competitively).

I've thought this for a while, that there are two components to matchups, how hard a matchup is, and how good it is. Where for hard it is would mean how well I would have to be playing, and how good it is would be how the MU overall goes. To put this two aspects into a visual and more easily explainable terms, the hardness would be the scale, and the good/badness would be the set point.

Example: I feel like Luigi and Peach are very hard MUs, in that if I'm not playing well, they will punish me and the MU will be more difficult. However, when I am playing really well, I think I would have more problems with Falco or Falcon, who are not as hard, but are worse MUs.

I tried to draw my thoughts...

 

Scrumpy

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I don't know if this has been asked too much in the past, but nothing I've read up on has really helped me with this. I picked up Yoshi recently, and I am having trouble incorporating (especially DJC) punishes into my game. I have the tech skill to DJC l-cancel everything, but I can't execute them very well in a match; it's mostly a problem with being able to set it all up. I know DJC uair is a one of Yoshi's best punish game options, but I can never find a good opportunity to get them in a match. If this isn't a totally stupid question, what are good setups for DJC uair and/or other punishes? I feel like my opponents are never in a good position to be hit with DJC uairs.

I guess the question is this: How do I punish the opponent well? The guy I usually train with is a Falcon main so I really need to step it up.
 
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Sashimi

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I had this problem for a while and it really bugged me. For starters, here are some setups for Uair (varying by character and % of course):

- Fair
- Down-throw
- Jab reset
- Ftilt
- Utilt
- Parry
- DJCC

- If your opponent is above you, you can also use Uair as a poke if you're safe with it. Uair has a ridiculous hitbox on it so it will beat most things if you space/time it properly.

Just focus on recognizing the situations where you can land those moves safely, and follow-up from them. Some things will lead into the moves I listed (ex: Bair vs an airborne opponent can lead to Utilt which then leads to Uair), so there's another layer to it.
 

Purpletuce

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It has been asked before, but if you give some more information on the problems you're having, I'm sure some people can give you more specific advice. For now, I'll just expand on what PerhapsMan said, along with some advice. The best way I've found to implement a new piece of tech into my game is to put myself in more situations where I'm able to do it. Also, practice implementing new tech in obvious situations, and as you gain experience, you'll eventually be able to use it on the fly.

How to implement DJC Nair. First off, DJC Nair is interesting because it is slower than its more intuitive counterpart, SH Nair. The reward of DJC Nair is that it will allow you to be more safe with it, as well as gets larger follow ups after landing it. Keep that in mind. Some easy situations to land this include whenever you've missed a techchase, but you think your opponent will shield, at higher % Uthrow -> DJC Nair on spacies(they'll fly out at too high of %). Also try it after parry. I tihnk it is a solid option to try after a parry.

So...

How to implement parrying: I'd begin implementing parry by practicing on projectiles(Samus missles and Falco lasers), then I'd move toward parrying out of techchase situations (if you think Falcon is going to be a little slow on his stomp?), then eventually move on to parrying approaches(you can react to people jumping toward you). For these situations, you'll probably only want to parry -> jump, or parry into DJC Nair, until you're familiar with it.

How to implement DJC Uair: The best place to start is off of Fair on most characters. (Low % of floaties, mid % of average weight, high % on fastfallers) You can also work on implementing this after Dthrow on fastfallers, and it should start to become easier after you're familiar with those situations. To practice this (hand motion) I'd juggle computer spacies on FD. When you're ready to implement, start using more Fair in your friendlies, and trying to get these strings going.

As you get better, you'll start to be able to implement these different DJCs into your gameplay and can start to do more complex things like jump away -> DJC Nair back in, or fast DJC Uair juggles. Before you know it, you'll automatically using these with ease.

Note about DJC Uair: I'd avoid using this after jab reset or parry, until you're familiar with it. It is easy to miss the DJC Uair on opponents low to the ground due to it being narrow and above you.
 

Dinowulf

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good advise. I wish i asked about it sooner. Something that has always bugged me with Yoshi is spacing for most of his attacks. I believe dtilt is a good spacing tool but does he have anything else he can use to space his opponents? and is moonwalking with yoshi effective or just for flashyness.
 

kofinater

Smash Apprentice
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not sure if its useful or not, but I moonwalk to turn around my shffl nair so the hitbox isnt as ****ty. As well as just in gerneral ground movement mixups. I feel with yoshi's ability to change momentum so freely with his dj, you can have super erratic and unpredictable ground movement. Moonwalk->slow turn around egg in the opposite direction is really odd visually.
 

Scrumpy

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It has been asked before, but if you give some more information on the problems you're having, I'm sure some people can give you more specific advice. For now, I'll just expand on what PerhapsMan said, along with some advice. The best way I've found to implement a new piece of tech into my game is to put myself in more situations where I'm able to do it. Also, practice implementing new tech in obvious situations, and as you gain experience, you'll eventually be able to use it on the fly.

How to implement DJC Nair. First off, DJC Nair is interesting because it is slower than its more intuitive counterpart, SH Nair. The reward of DJC Nair is that it will allow you to be more safe with it, as well as gets larger follow ups after landing it. Keep that in mind. Some easy situations to land this include whenever you've missed a techchase, but you think your opponent will shield, at higher % Uthrow -> DJC Nair on spacies(they'll fly out at too high of %). Also try it after parry. I tihnk it is a solid option to try after a parry.

So...

How to implement parrying: I'd begin implementing parry by practicing on projectiles(Samus missles and Falco lasers), then I'd move toward parrying out of techchase situations (if you think Falcon is going to be a little slow on his stomp?), then eventually move on to parrying approaches(you can react to people jumping toward you). For these situations, you'll probably only want to parry -> jump, or parry into DJC Nair, until you're familiar with it.

How to implement DJC Uair: The best place to start is off of Fair on most characters. (Low % of floaties, mid % of average weight, high % on fastfallers) You can also work on implementing this after Dthrow on fastfallers, and it should start to become easier after you're familiar with those situations. To practice this (hand motion) I'd juggle computer spacies on FD. When you're ready to implement, start using more Fair in your friendlies, and trying to get these strings going.

As you get better, you'll start to be able to implement these different DJCs into your gameplay and can start to do more complex things like jump away -> DJC Nair back in, or fast DJC Uair juggles. Before you know it, you'll automatically using these with ease.

Note about DJC Uair: I'd avoid using this after jab reset or parry, until you're familiar with it. It is easy to miss the DJC Uair on opponents low to the ground due to it being narrow and above you.
This is invaluable. Thanks a bunch! I'm testing it all right now and it looks like the initial fair for the djc uair juggle might be a little tricky to land on an attentive opponent, and I can ever only get grabs when I hard-read them because the grab animations are slow. It kind of makes it apparent to me that Yoshi is heavily based on a baiting game, and if that's the case then I'm going to start working on that.

Also parries are tricky.

EDIT: How necessary is parrying? I've been sitting here for a good couple hours trying this now and I can only get it like once for every 150 times I try. Usually tech stuff comes pretty easily to me but this is aggravating.

EDIT 2: Turns out I was pressing my shield button too slowly. If I really push it down, I can usually get the jump out of shield animation. Cheers!

EDIT 3: When a laser or an aerial comes into play, all of a sudden I can't do it anymore. Is there something special about actually being hit, or is it all in my head?
 
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Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
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Turns out I was pressing my shield button too slowly. If I really push it down, I can usually get the jump out of shield
EDIT:

I'm just gonna quote PerhapsMan instead.

How do the analogue shoulder buttons affect parrying?

There are three variations on the parry. Only one of them is useful.

1. The first is just analogue (light shielding). You cannot jump-cancel the pre-shielding animation if you are light shielding.
2. The second is analogue on frame 1 and digital (full press) on frame 2. If you are fully pressing L or R by frame 2 (no later!), you can jump on frames 3-6, but you will have no powershield and no invincibility.
3. The third is by fully pressing L or R in one frame. This is the true parry as explained above. In order to ensure that you are pressing full shield on frame 1, it may be necessary for you to "trigger trick" your controller. This is done by fully holding down L or R as you plug in your controller or while you reset it (X+Y+Start for a few seconds).
 
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Purpletuce

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I use moonwalk sometimes, but I feel like it is right on the line of practicality. It isn't bad, so you can definitely use it if you like, however I really doubt it is necessary. Using it to approach with Nair or Bair is a thing I've done before though.

Dinowulf: With yoshi and spacing, I like to use Bair and Dtilt, but both of those moves are beatable. Make sure you mix up when you're in a spacing battle or not. Yoshi isn't like some characters where he can put out a move and be safe with it, so you'll have to mix up when you're spacing and when your'e retreating/approaching/taking to the platforms.

Scrumpy: I'm glad my post helped. You would be surprised at how viable landing Fair is with Yoshi. Try mixing up super fast wavelands on the top platform with DJC FF Fair as an opener. You will also be able to get Fair out of parry and shield drop in certain situations. If you're missing hard read grabs, you're not grabbing soon enough. For a while I entirely cut grabbing out of my game, because it has no reliable follow ups and is hard to land and is very easily punished, however if you do this, your opponents will be able to shield for free, and shielding will probably be able to wait you out in the long run. Nowadays I try to grab just enough that they know they can't shield for free, or if I know they're scared and will stay in shield.

Parrying is NOT necessary when you're still picking up Yoshi, there will be a period of time where you can greatly improve your Yoshi without it. However, eventually you'll want to add it into your game. If you're just now picking up the character, start becoming familiar with it, but don't force it. That is my opinion at least. When you need to parry, there are always two components. The first is your hands, and if they have the muscle memory and speed for the input, the second is your ability to know when you should implement the parry. You need both of these aspects to be in order for you to use a parry in a match.
 

Dinowulf

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Dinowulf: With yoshi and spacing, I like to use Bair and Dtilt, but both of those moves are beatable. Make sure you mix up when you're in a spacing battle or not. Yoshi isn't like some characters where he can put out a move and be safe with it, so you'll have to mix up when you're spacing and when your'e retreating/approaching/taking to the platforms.
With that statement in mind would it be possible to use a dtilt/bair in a keep away fashion?


Also i know this isn't brought up much but i teamed up with a good friend of mine who plays as Link. as a uncommon team i wanted to know your take on this?
 

Purpletuce

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I usually use those moves as a callout, or to catch them while they're not quite ready. For example, if a falcon wants to stomp you, he can beat those moves. However, if he wants to stomp you low to the ground so that he can follow up, you will be able to beat that. I also use them to punish landings often, if you can get them so come up short. Alternatively, if they're going forward you will need to interrupt.

I'll withhold my teams review since I don't really play yoshi in teams. I will say why I don't play him in teams though. I don't think he has enough priority to make space, can be exploited too easy for a stock tank, and generally loses most of his intricate spacing game. Because of this, I think his role in teams is just a punishment game, and there are better team work oriented characters that I would prefer to play.
 

hamyojo

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Finally. Finally finally finally.
I almost won a tourney going all Yoshi, guys. I 2-0'd the guy who's second on Dallas' PR because he was playing Falco and my parrys were on point. Lost to someone who knew me and went Fox instead of his main, Falco, and he won(this was Winner's Finals). Next I 3-0'd a Sheik (in Losers Finals) who wasn't respecting me during the entire set, so I abused that.
In GF's I won the first set to reset everything, was up 2-1 while he was going Fox the whole time, then he switched to Falcon and won the next two games.
Still, made good money and have a ton of inspiration. Parrying alone has leveled me up so much as a player, but I also think going so long without it made me learn how to do everything else super well. I still feel like I can improve so much and that's really exciting.

Now... How do I deal with Falcon? I gotta win somethin'.
 
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Kimimaru

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Awesome job! Keep up the good work!

CC his aerials at low % and keep him pressured. Most Falcons stomp OOS, so anticipate it and punish accordingly. Try not to get above him as his U-air will beat most of your options.
 
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MrHazuki

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501
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Remember that you can't crouch-parry CF's stomp like his other aerials. You need to time it perfectly, which is why light shield often is better.
 
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