Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Dinowulf]

1. Good luck put there purpletuce.
2. Are the videos for melee being posted here from on now? Like for cnc

 

[Malkasaur]

I have a stupid question: When I try to jump and toss an egg, it always makes me double jump and cancel it with the egg, so that I lose my second jump, any tips?

 

[itsbme]

The only thing I can think of is tilt the stick up without clicking it (like you're doing an upsmash). Sorry if that/s no help.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Either you have to jump with up or you have to tilt the stick gently so that it doesn't put in jump as a command.

There's a technique that some Falcon players use for instant SH uairs that might be helpful for this too: you can sh with the x or y button and smash up on the stick within the frame-window before you leave the ground. With Falcon this is 5 frames. If you execute this correctly, you will not double jump, but will be holding up.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dinowulf]

I have a stupid question: When I try to jump and toss an egg, it always makes me double jump and cancel it with the egg, so that I lose my second jump, any tips?

To use the Egg toss a little more effectively i input a jump command with the X Button and when i get ready to throw a Egg I input a slight up/left or up right + The B Command after Yoshi puts his hand out to toss a Egg then i move the analog stick in the general direction i want it to go.

You can use the tilt/UpB Command the quatercircle either left or right to make it go where you want.

 

[knightpraetor]

so if fox nairs into shine and is on top of you, can you actually djc the nair from parry before the shine hits you? occasionally it hits me before my nair hits, and I always wonder if i'm messing up or something. I assume i can just jump backwards from parry and then come back in if I have to, but that's harder. Does it depend on how late the nair is?

 

[tauKhan]

@ knightpraetor

If the nair is staled a bit (it usually probably is), yoshi gets 12 frame advantage from strong nair and 11 frame from weak nair. So usually yoshi should be able djc nair the fox. However, if the fox is frame perfect, and hits you early in the parry, it might sometimes beat djc nair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Parry->DJC nair is the sickest thing.

That being said, why do I find DJC characters stressful to use?

 

[knightpraetor]

ok, thank taukhan.

there was a post somewhere by someone saying that parry DJC nair is not a counter to fox's nair cause shine beats super armor, but that wasn't my experience so I didn't know what to say. anyway, i probably could have mentioned that yoshi's fair hitboxes are very strong and that DJ can be used to vary your fall timing so that you have the advantage in aerial to aerial interactions even if the hitbox priority was in fox's favor. Also yoshi's waveland game is extremely strong for faking approaches. yoshi's defense is near impervious, and his offense has enough variety that fox can't cover everything. Honestly neutral is the easiest part of yoshi vs fox for me. I think if i could just edgeguard like amsa then beating foxes would be pretty easy. Fox's speed is not nearly as useful vs yoshi as priority or real lasers. Probably one of the easiest matchups, but maybe i just think that cause i play it every day.

But regardless, i still use parry as a very valid counter to fox's nair game. if fox starts nairing less and dairing instead, that makes him ten times easier to hit when i actually start using my aerials to contest his space.

a yoshi player should always be punishing fox's nair with parry enough to make sure that the fox is using dair a good percentage of the time.

One thing that I was hoping someone would validate is whether fox has a true upair combo on yoshi off upthrow if you di behind them and then just fall or dj nair quickly to the side to get out of range. It seems like at low percent my nair can win most of the time. At higher percents it seems like they can link, though i get out a bit using DJ movement sometimes.

 

[ChivalRuse]

U-throw uair doesn't work on Zelda oddly enough. So I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work on a heavy character like Yoshi. Although I feel like at around 80-90 it probably is a true combo.

 

[Sashimi]

Upthrow > Uair is covered here. Assuming both players are frame perfect, the combo works after a certain %, but it's not uncommon to see the Fox player try to jump too early due to Yoshi's weight. After a certain point it becomes easier for Fox so it's still very useful to learn how to SDI out of the Uair.

(as tauKhan said) Assuming a weak hit (which is better for Fox on parry than a strong hit would be), the best Fox can hope for is that he's -12 on parry. If you're getting hit by the shine, it's just a matter of making your DJC Nair faster. However, I don't think there's ever a situation where Nair > Shine should beat parry > DJC Nair... DJC Nair can hit in 10 frames so there's no way Fox can get a guaranteed shine.

It's kind of funny how parrying works... strong hits are normally more valuable in this game because they're safer on-shield and don't lose to crouch cancelling as often, but then weak hits are "safer" on parry ("safer" because it's almost never truly safe ). We've got a neat little thing there...crouch cancelling discourages weak hits, while parrying discourages strong ones.

 

[tauKhan]

DJC Nair can hit in 10 frames

Isn't it 11 frames? I think you'll still land if you dj on the 2nd aerial frame.

jumpsquat
jumpsquat
jumpsquat
jumpsquat
jumpsquat
aerial
aerial
dj
nair 1
nair 2
nair hitbox

Actually if you parry on the frames 1-2 and jump on 6 fox can get the shine in time. Perhaps doing just sh nair would be better. On the other hand, if you get shined out of the nair, then the shine hitstun will probably get land canceled.

 

[Sashimi]

You don't need to be in the air for 2 frames. Even though doing a double jump on the second frame would normally cause a double jump land, interrupting it with a Nair will prevent this.

When I say "Fox can never get a guaranteed shine," I mean that assuming both players are frame perfect, you'll always have time to get the Nair out first. Of course, if you're jumping on frame 6 you won't have time, but there's never a reason to jump that late.

 

[tauKhan]

Of course, if you're jumping on frame 6 you won't have time, but there's never a reason to jump that late.

Hmm, I always try to jump as late as possible to get margin for error.

Also that frame data I posted earlier was slightly off: The hit frame actually counts as a hitlag frame, so advantage over unstaled weak nair is 11 frames.

 

[Sashimi]

Jumping late works well for grabs, because you want to minimize the change that you jump before the grab hitbox is gone. Unfortunately, with any other attack, your powershield has a good chance of interfering with the parry on frames 3-4 and your regular shield has an even better chance of interfering with the parry on frames 5-6, so if you're landing parries, you're most likely already parrying with frames 1-2. That's my mindset when parrying, at least . It's amplified by the fact that crouch parrying increases your chance of getting the parry on frames 1-2.

About the hitlag: Interesting. I was under the impression that the frame on which a move hits doesn't count as hitlag. Doesn't hitlag start the frame after this? The advantage I got when I tested Fox's Nair on-parry (a few weeks ago) was 12 frames for weak unstaled Nair.

What I got:
- Nair hits, Yoshi parries. I'm not sure if this frame would be called hitlag.
- Fox has 5 frames of hitlag (weak hit) after the hit.
- Fox lands, 7 frame landing lag.
Because Yoshi can jump the frame after the parry he's got 12 actionable frames before Fox is done his landing. This would make it +12?

Maybe the issue is just semantics (whether or not you'd call that first frame hitlag or not), but in either case Fox had 5 subsequent frames of hitlag after the hit took place.

 

[tauKhan]

Interesting, I didn't know at all that parries usually happen at frames 1-2. How positive are you on that? Does getting a powershield prevent you from jumping or put you in hitlag?

Regarding the hitlag, the issue certainly is semantic, but has a big practical effect, since if the hit frame is count as hitlag, then the lag is effectively 1 frame less than what the formula says.

I deduced that the hit frame is counted towards hitlag from the op of http://smashboards.com/threads/multishine-an-extensive-guide-updated-8-13-10.214549/

1. Hitlag - There are 4 frames of hitlag for you after you hit, this means you press Y later, but the Y to B motion that I've been stressing is still EXACTLY the same.

But the formula definitely gives falco's shine a hitlag of 5 frames. Or maybe the victim has 1 frame more hitlag? Or then @Stratocaster was just wrong. This question needs to be cleared.

 

[Sashimi]

About the parrying:
- Powershielding and shielding take priority if the hitbox overlaps with both Yoshi's body and his shield. Because Yoshi's curling up into a ball during this animation, less of his body is exposed over time and the parry becomes less likely. Of course, during frames 1-2 he has no powershield to block attacks (for some reason he can only reflect projectiles in the first two frames, unlike most characters who can powershield physical attacks during frames 1-4), so there's nothing on frames 1-2 to interrupt the parry.

Powershielding gives you hitlag, prevents you from jumping, and even prevents you from cancelling your unshielding animation with a grounded attack (every other character can do this after a powershield). Poor Yoshi

About the hitlag:
It's hard to argue with Stratocaster, haha. I just checked Falco's shine myself to make sure this answer is right:

Falco's shine has 4 frames of hitlag after the hit takes place. So it seems like the formula would include that first hit frame as hitlag. However, this first frame isn't useful when considering frame advantage, so maybe that's why we don't count it?

It would seem as though the effective hitlag (especially important when dealing with parrying because the fact that only the attacker gets hitlag plays a huge part in frame advantage) is actually 1 frame less than the formula suggests, unless we include the frame the hit takes place.

I think it's better to consider that first hit frame to not be hitlag. If we were to imagine the move whiffing, Falco would shine, then move from frame 1 of his shine animation to frame 2 with no delay. But if the move hits, that first shine frame still has to happen, right? I don't think it would just go away because the move hit. The hitlag frames are simply added afterwards.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, make sure you remember Fox has hitlag to deal with, so stronger hits will be more lenient to punish. Also remember if you're not doing things as fast as you could (the move hits the first frame of your parry but you jump out on frame 4) you're at risk. Keep in mind they could also miss an l cancel, or wait a frame before they shine, or do a higher nair...

Fox's shine doesn't do anything bad to Yoshi if you mess up though, if anything it'll interupt you, but it'll only do a modest amount of damage, and put you in a good spot without any lag, so it is safe to go for. Falco's shine is more dangerous because he might put you above him without a double jump, but you'll probably be find if you keep your actions fast.

IMO the biggest threat to you missing a djc nair after a parry is if they space. Almost every character can outrange your nair.

 

[BigglesWorth]

Probably, obvious. I have been doing a lot of run through bairs > reverse dsmash on spacies. It seems to work from like 20%to 80%, however I am not sure if its just because of people not knowing how to DI it. It feels like it links. Anyone give me some clarity? Yoshi whens as seems to really good to punish fox on whiff and win even non super armor trades: especially with ftilt, down smash, and certain fair spacings. Does anyone use trades to your advantages or are cognizant of Yoshi's ability to punish whiffs with fox? Just working through some things and would love to more insight.

 

[Sashimi]

Is outspacing Parry > Nair a common thing? I've never encountered a spacing that I couldn't solve by extending my range with a forward or reverse DJC.

@ BigglesWorth be wary of crouchcancelling. It seems like the Bair > Dsmash scenario you're describing involves your opponent being on the ground, and Bair loses pretty badly to CC. IMO Bair is best used to beat short hops. Also, consider replacing the Dsmash with Ftilt as a follow-up. They both hit on frame 6, but Ftilt leads to awesome combos/techchasing at low %. Utilt is also great. You might not be able to get it to work if you're landing with them behind you after the Bair (that's how I imagined your scenario), but doing the Bair so they land in front of you is actually safer because you're approaching them with the hitbox rather than passing through them and then hitting them.

IMO aMSa vs Zgetto is a great example of Yoshi making the best use of trades. Someone at RoF even called Yoshi a "poverty Peach" because of Yoshi's ability to make advantageous trades.

 

[BigglesWorth]

@ Sashimi That's great. I use it mainly as a connect near the ledge for higher percents into dsmash because that gives you a perfect edgeguard situation. So the situation is its a weirdly double jump spaced falling bair that selects the 2nd hit or so on the top right of a character hurtbox and continues down to where the opponent would be standing. So you aren't going through but you are in the opponent and space the bair so it would be where they would land so you are approaching with falling bair and are continually hitting them landing just in middle of their model while landing then dsmash so the forward hit of the dmsash sends them off stage at a low angle behind yoshi (kind of like Pikachu's uair but not). The crouch cancel is a good point. I will definitely try messing with utilt out of falling/run through/fade in bair for lower percents. I wasn't going for lower percents most of the time so I am glad to hear that. xD It that bair spacing also leads might lead into usmash on certain characters/% I feel (just from messing around) which is helpful on BF, FoD, and YS to setup heavy damage link > platformchase for uairs. Maybe I am looking into many niche things but then again its Yoshi and I am learning. xD

 

[Sashimi]

If these are options that you can remember and execute in a real match, then it certainly doesn't hurt to explore them!

Now that you've explained it, it makes more sense to me. I also remembered that shielding can be a problem when you land in front of them. They can CC shield and then punish your Dsmash. Bair cross-up, on the other hand, is really good, because it still works if they shield, since you're landing behind them and they can't grab you. You can then react and Dsmash (if they grab), Utilt/Ftilt (if they try to SHFFL something), or start DJC Nair shield pressure (if they stay in their shield or try to wavedash away).

The Bair > Usmash might be a stretch, but would be awesome if it worked.

 

[BigglesWorth]

If these are options that you can remember and execute in a real match, then it certainly doesn't hurt to explore them!

Now that you've explained it, it makes more sense to me. I also remembered that shielding can be a problem when you land in front of them. They can CC shield and then punish your Dsmash. Bair cross-up, on the other hand, is really good, because it still works if they shield, since you're landing behind them and they can't grab you. You can then react and Dsmash (if they grab), Utilt/Ftilt (if they try to SHFFL something), or start DJC Nair shield pressure (if they stay in their shield or try to wavedash away).

The Bair > Usmash might be a stretch, but would be awesome if it worked.

The Bair > Usmash was very specific percents that I don't remember, but it felt like it worked. I don't play enough with people at a high enough level to really know if it does. xD

 

[tauKhan]

Is outspacing Parry > Nair a common thing? I've never encountered a spacing that I couldn't solve by extending my range with a forward or reverse DJC.

My practice partner does this constantly by jumping backwards from run and then hitting me with tip of his nair and using aerial mobility to back out. I find it very hard to parry counter. Retreating pivot bair is also very hard to parry counter.

 

[MrHazuki]

I do bair-upsmash a lot, especially against CF. It might not be a combo, but I think it's a frame trap. Try it.

I tried to parry-djc nair against perfectly spaced and timed CF nairs, and it seems impossible to hit. I even moved before and after the nair.

 

[Sashimi]

Very interesting... the local players I usually practise with (who are all better than me) try to outspace my parries, but don't seem to be able to do this. I'm going to look into this, thanks!

 

[hamyojo]

Either I'm awful, or the Kriby/Yoshi match up is almost even. I think Kirby's few tools do really well against Yoshi, and he's basically the only character that can gimp Yoshi.

 

[Sashimi]

My experiences have led me to believe that the Kirby-Yoshi matchup is basically unwinnable for Kirby... maybe I'm not playing good Kirby mains

- His recovery is very easy to edgeguard (I make him waste his jumps with eggs, then either dash attack or grab the ledge).
- The swallow gimp is a problem, I suppose, but swallow is a pretty bad move anyway and doesn't work as a viable strategy imo
- He's got no good KO moves for someone as heavy as Yoshi
- General Yoshi stuff seems to work well against Kirby, and the neutral game doesn't have to be played specifically to the matchup imo. I don't think Kirby can chase Yoshi on the platforms, and on the ground you can crouch cancel/parry/dashdance etc and then just combo him/wall him out like Puff. If you get him above you, dashdance > Usmash will outprioritize anything he's got except down+B (lol)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Kirby doesn't really have any good matchups. Lol.

 

[hamyojo]

My experiences have led me to believe that the Kirby-Yoshi matchup is basically unwinnable for Kirby... maybe I'm not playing good Kirby mains

- His recovery is very easy to edgeguard (I make him waste his jumps with eggs, then either dash attack or grab the ledge).
- The swallow gimp is a problem, I suppose, but swallow is a pretty bad move anyway and doesn't work as a viable strategy imo
- He's got no good KO moves for someone as heavy as Yoshi
- General Yoshi stuff seems to work well against Kirby, and the neutral game doesn't have to be played specifically to the matchup imo. I don't think Kirby can chase Yoshi on the platforms, and on the ground you can crouch cancel/parry/dashdance etc and then just combo him/wall him out like Puff. If you get him above you, dashdance > Usmash will outprioritize anything he's got except down+B (lol)

I don't know, I guess Texas just has some really good Kirby's I don't know how to deal with yet .-.
We're all pretty weird around here.

 

[Sashimi]

We're all pretty weird around here.

I just spent the afternoon playing friendlies with a G&W and a Link main. I know your troubles

Also Bair > Usmash is definitely a thing at the right %. Thanks to everyone for suggesting that!

 

[kofinater]

so yoshi-peach looks super bad. What do you guys think amsa could have done better vs armada? I feel like bigger stages and utilizing dash dance would work well, but there does not seem like there is a good way to kill peach with yoshi. thoughts?

 

[MrHazuki]

In really tight spots he should do parry-nair without DJC. Saves at least 3 frames, even if there is a bit more lag afterwards.

 

[Nicco]

To address what I wrote a few days ago, I am mightily impressed. I have parried like a FREAK. Every parry-capable yoshi must at least try this out. I will have to learn how to lightsheild with the other trigger now, but it really feels like it's worth it.

Every non parry-capable yoshi should evolve into parry-capable yoshi asap

 

[Purpletuce]

Yes, spacing aerials so you can't DJC nair them is a thing, and I think most players should be able to do it if they are trying to be good against Yoshi.

Yoshi-Peach is pretty hard for Yoshi IMO, but it a MU I don't know really well, because I've never had any regular Peach practice. It definitely seems like there are some things that are hard to manage, but I just focus on her really poor landing (juggle her) and try to be aware of when she can CC, and what moves you can do to stop her CC.



I went to mlg last weekend. Had lots of great games and learned a ton of things there, got to play lots of amazing people. It was fun to play aMSa, and those other two Yoshis I saw. In tournament, I beat a California Samus, and Mooninite(A marth). I lost to blea_gello(spelling?) a really good Florida Luigi, and lost to a really campy Falco called Zanguzen(spelling?). No clue what to do against campy Falco... but he was a solid play so I'm not too mad.

I think I got 33rd in the open bracket, which would correspond to 45th in the tournament(12 players already qualified and started in pro bracket). If anyone is familiar with how rankings work from brackets, it would be sweet if someone could check that for me... Doesn't matter too much though because the tournament was pretty much unseeded.

 

[V3ctorMan]

GG's Purpletuce, yeah Blea, is definetely a top level Luigi, and Zanguzen is very solid also... those aren't bad losses to have. I don't know how the placing(s) worked, but yeah I heard nothing was seeded.. must've been some ackward cases for some players... Hope you had fun... and I hope someone is checking for you on brackets.

 

[Purpletuce]

I actually now think I got 61st,not 45th. Doesn't matter too much though, both of the players I lost to were very good, and each got 29th. The only seeding that it had that I know of is the qualifier points, which were jank to say the least. I definitely outplaced some players that deserved to outplace me (and hopefully there were bigger frauds out there than I am). One person in my carpool got dead last because he lost to pspirits(Japan samus) then Kira. I would consider him better than me, but he went 0-2... mlg be crazy.

Oh well.

 

[V3ctorMan]

the Japanese Samus Im pretty sure is PL.. he's one of my favorites. .

Hopefully you learned alot and had fun..

Only thing I'll be attending is EVO... Haven't played since Apex.. hehe.. just like last year not playing at apex since EVO.. My sad smashless life..

I envy you guys who don't live in a population of 1..

 

[Purpletuce]

Hello Yoshi boards. This post will probably make a good amount of you upset, but after reading some of aMSa's recent posts, I think it needs to be said.

aMSa, you truely are a very good player. Your performances have been amazing. . . however, I don't think you're as good as everyone thinks you are. You need to not let everyone's expectations become your own expectations, because most people who are watching you have no idea what they're watching.

Consider your major wins: 2 ICs, DK, Bowser, Ganon, over-aggressive Fox, over-aggressive Falco, PAL Shiek, Marth. (I might be forgetting some) Those are all of Yoshi's best MUs, and all the players you beat didn't know how to play against Yoshi(and they weren't really trying to learnat first).

Again, don't get me wrong, you're an amazing player, you really are. Although when nobody knows what to expect from a Yoshi, it is easy for them to set crazy expectations. In turn, it will also be easy for you to not meet some of those expectations. Don't let it get to you.

You're a great player aMSa, don't forget that, and don't get discouraged.

 

[Krynxe]

Though I can partially agree with that, I think it's rather disrespectful to put the focus on aMSa as a player. He honestly pushed the character far and beyond, and his success at tournaments are well deserved for his knowledge, skill, and efforts towards the game. Does matchup/character ignorance play a role? Definitely, yes. Almost every match you see aMSa play in, you can hardly keep track of the wrong things his opponents do, because they're so unaware of Yoshi's capabilities and options. But again, that isn't the fault of aMSa, that's the fault of his opponents. In some matches, you can see some adaption happen during the match, and you can tell that aMSa struggles more and more to get momentum as the set goes on. People are slowly understanding, but there is still a huge amount that the general public truly doesn't understand about abusing Yoshi's flaws. Ultimately, I think it's fair to say that Yoshi isn't as good as people are thinking his is now due to aMSa's success, or even to say that aMSa's success is primarily a result of character ignorance, but it's unfair to insult his skill as a player in my option