Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[hamyojo]

Yeah, it isn't a punish at all. It's just a control assertion move to shake up the game's pace. I would never use it outside of the neutral... unless it was against a Falco who was recovering from very low on Yoshi's or something.

It's safe, it makes you look like a a bad ass, it has a lot of range, it has grab priority, your opponent will never expect it... but even then follow ups aren't great. It does get Peach in the air, though, which is a massive step in the right direction.

It's a message to your opponent, one that says "LOL LOOK YOU JUST GOT PUT IN TO AN EGG REMEMBER WHEN THAT MOVE WAS THE BEST IN 3RD GRADE NOPE YOU DONT CAUSE YOURE TOO BUSY MASHING AS I DTILT YOU IN YOUR EGG YA BIG HIGH TIER DWEEB"
and then they mash out and bair you

 

[Sashimi]

@ hamyojo I took a look at the frame data for Jab reset > Fair. It's basically a 4-frame window for every character.

You can jump 15 frames after jab hits (17 total, hits on frame 3), jump takes 5 and Fair takes 19. Getting hit by jab takes 13 frames before the getup happens, and the getup is 30 frames for everyone. Fair can hit as early as frame 27 of the getup, so you have from 27-30 to hit with the Fair. Every character is vulnerable by frame 27. Very small characters like Pikachu and Pichu require you to fastfall as early as possible to get the full 4 frame window (or else Fair will take too long to connect), but it is 4 frames for every character.

 

[hamyojo]

@ hamyojo I took a look at the frame data for Jab reset > Fair. It's basically a 4-frame window for every character.

You can jump 15 frames after jab hits (17 total, hits on frame 3), jump takes 5 and Fair takes 19. Getting hit by jab takes 13 frames before the getup happens, and the getup is 30 frames for everyone. Fair can hit as early as frame 27 of the getup, so you have from 27-30 to hit with the Fair. Every character is vulnerable by frame 27. Very small character like Pikachu and Pichu require you to fastfall as early as possible to get the full 4 frame window (or else Fair will take too long to connect), but it is 4 frames for every character.

Thanks a lot, that's really useful!

Pikachu was actually the character I was playing against before making that post, so I'll try that. I just want to pop Pika in to the air again, he's so fun to combo.
The neutral game of that MU is really odd, though.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

Hi there everyone! I've been a yoshi main for around three months I think and although it's tough I've been enjoying it.

I went to my first out-of-town tournament yesterday and learned a lot. But the thing I learned most is that my defense is severely lacking.

My parries are good at times but more often than not I find myself trapped in shield and rolling when I get worried.

My first question: Is rolling the best way for yoshi to get around an opponent or get out of a bad situation (like repeating dair shines from Falco for example) or is it better to find a different way around.

Second question: the trigger trick heard mentioned on here, the one where you hold down your shield button when you plug in your controller; Does it really work well for parrying? Is the elimination of lightshielding a bad idea? Because I've always found it pretty useful.

And lastly is wavedashing a consistent way to dodge attacks. I know DJC Wavelands are useful for stage mobility but I'm just wondering if I should use more wavedashing at the base of the stage.

Thanks for any help you can give!

 

[hamyojo]

Hi there everyone! I've been a yoshi main for around three months I think and although it's tough I've been enjoying it.

I went to my first out-of-town tournament yesterday and learned a lot. But the thing I learned most is that my defense is severely lacking.

My parries are good at times but more often than not I find myself trapped in shield and rolling when I get worried.

My first question: Is rolling the best way for yoshi to get around an opponent or get out of a bad situation (like repeating dair shines from Falco for example) or is it better to find a different way around.

Second question: the trigger trick heard mentioned on here, the one where you hold down your shield button when you plug in your controller; Does it really work well for parrying? Is the elimination of lightshielding a bad idea? Because I've always found it pretty useful.

And lastly is wavedashing a consistent way to dodge attacks. I know DJC Wavelands are useful for stage mobility but I'm just wondering if I should use more wavedashing at the base of the stage.

Thanks for any help you can give!

It sounds like you need shield dropping in your life.

Learn to love and use platforms to your advantage, they're super helpful once you learn to shield drop well. Once you start shield dropping you'll be able to get around a lot of Falco's stuff.

In general you should constantly be moving with wave dashing and stuff. Also, always pressure your opponent and make sure you punish hard. Make them scared, because then they're offence will be a lot less threatening 'cause they will learn to respect your punishes.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

It sounds like you need shield dropping in your life.

Learn to love and use platforms to your advantage, they're super helpful once you learn to shield drop well. Once you start shield dropping you'll be able to get around a lot of Falco's stuff.

In general you should constantly be moving with wave dashing and stuff. Also, always pressure your opponent and make sure you punish hard. Make them scared, because then they're offence will be a lot less threatening 'cause they will learn to respect your punishes.

Ah, I really should be using Shield Dropping more, I'm getting more and more consistent with it when I practice so hopefully it'll be a great tool for me soon.

Also, I've found that when I'M the one on the offensive and harassing them that I feel really safe and I don't feel trapped at all, I guess the question is how do I transfer from cowered in my shield, to putting on tons of pressure?

 

[hamyojo]

Ah, I really should be using Shield Dropping more, I'm getting more and more consistent with it when I practice so hopefully it'll be a great tool for me soon.

Also, I've found that when I'M the one on the offensive and harassing them that I feel really safe and I don't feel trapped at all, I guess the question is how do I transfer from cowered in my shield, to putting on tons of pressure?

Try your best to avoid getting in to that position, there's no good answer to help you once you get to that point. That's where a strong neutral/footsies game comes in handy, which will slowly come with more experience.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

Try your best to avoid getting in to that position, there's no good answer to help you once you get to that point. That's where a strong neutral/footsies game comes in handy, which will slowly come with more experience.

Thanks! I keep getting told I would be a great player if I just focused on a high tier, but I love playing Yoshi and I get the most enjoyment out of the game when I play him well. So I'm determined to learn as much as possible through experience.

 

[Purpletuce]

Went to a tournament with around 50-60 people, and got 9th. I lost to 2 campy foxes :\

Although I also did a MM with the guy who got 3rd (he plays ices) and beat him pretty decisively, and in our crew battle I took 7 stocks (I definitely could have taken more, but I barely lost 2 stocks at the end of matches, and SDed once at like 30%).

In the crew battle I played a campy Puff, and using the advice I got here, I 3-stocked him. Thanks everybody!

Also, I'm pretty sure Yoshi actually wins the MU against ICs pretty well. That MU might even be better than Marth. . .

Has anyone else noticed they have days where they're comboing on point and do well against spacies, or have days where they're zoning well and do well against floaties? For me it is always one or the other. :\

 

[Sashimi]

@ HomesliceHobbes The best way to avoid getting stuck in your shield is to not use your shield. Unless you're on a platform, shielding with Yoshi is not a great idea. Parrying covers almost every option that shielding does, and good movement will cover the rest.

@ Purpletuce congrats as always, and I'm inclined to agree with you about ICs. It's just so easy for Yoshi to separate them, I have to wonder if Yoshi has a positive MU against them. Not to mention aMSa beat Chudat, Fly Amanita and Nintendude at Apex...

 

[Purpletuce]

I definitely wouldn't advise never shielding, there are just certain situations you have to shield in, and shielding has the very obvious advantage over parrying that you can use it to cover timing-ambiguous situations. It is better in some situations though. Shielding and parrying both have the inherent problem that you have to commit to them, and any opponent who can effectively bait you into shielding will easily force you into bad situations.

One thing this is good with Yoshi, is sometimes opponents will get too caught up in punishing your defensive game, and will focus really hard on trying to cover your rolls (knowing you can't jump oos and don't really have a shieldgrab), they'll forget you can just release your shield sometimes. So try to incorporate some simple shield releases to keep them honest.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

Okay I thought of a few more Parrying questions, it's pretty noobish but it's a question I need to know the answer to:

The reason many people crouch when they parry projectiles is because they can know exactly when to parry because of Yoshi's saddle correct?

Also, does the rule still apply that I should always parry with every jump, grab, or up smash? Or have I misunderstood that theory?

 

[Sashimi]

Crouch parrying doesn't just give you a visual cue; it also increases the frame window, especially for projectiles. This is because there's no transition from the crouch to the shield. When you shield, you're standing on frame 1 even if you were crouching beforehand.

Parrying before all of your jumps, grabs, etc is a very good way to become comfortable with parrying. I find it sometimes useful in matchups where I parry a lot (Falco for example), but it does technically slow you down, both by stopping your momentum during the shield and by making your jumps take longer. It's mainly used as a trick to make parrying more natural. In real matches you probably don't want to do it.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

Crouch parrying doesn't just give you a visual cue; it also increases the frame window, especially for projectiles. This is because there's no transition from the crouch to the shield. When you shield, you're standing on frame 1 even if you were crouching beforehand.

Parrying before all of your jumps, grabs, etc is a very good way to become comfortable with parrying. I find it sometimes useful in matchups where I parry a lot (Falco for example), but it does technically slow you down, both by stopping your momentum during the shield and by making your jumps take longer. It's mainly used as a trick to make parrying more natural. In real matches you probably don't want to do it.

Thanks so much this really helps me out!

 

[MrHazuki]

I would like to emphasize the most important advice given here, Hobbes. Shield drop.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

I would like to emphasize the most important advice given here, Hobbes. Shield drop.

Yep, I'll make sure I'm using it more.

 

[MrHazuki]

One thing I had never thought about was pointed out to me by my friend earlier today. When I do a "hard shield drop" (by slowly tilting the stick straight down), I move all of my body to get the perfect movement. That is a massive giveaway. Just thought I'd share that with you, since we Yoshis are the most prominent at hard shield drops. Think of how look when you play. A good opponent will notice things like this.

 

[HomesliceHobbes]

One thing I had never thought about was pointed out to me by my friend earlier today. When I do a "hard shield drop" (by slowly tilting the stick straight down), I move all of my body to get the perfect movement. That is a massive giveaway. Just thought I'd share that with you, since we Yoshis are the most prominent at hard shield drops. Think of how look when you play. A good opponent will notice things like this.

Yeah I go full DJNintendo when I play, not just with Yoshi either haha. But mostly just facial expressions.

 

[hamyojo]

One thing I had never thought about was pointed out to me by my friend earlier today. When I do a "hard shield drop" (by slowly tilting the stick straight down), I move all of my body to get the perfect movement. That is a massive giveaway. Just thought I'd share that with you, since we Yoshis are the most prominent at hard shield drops. Think of how look when you play. A good opponent will notice things like this.

... lol!

I talk a lot with my friends when I play (nervous habit?) and I just realized when I'm about to drop I go dead silent, then I drop the bass- I mean Yoshi.
Maybe that's why they've been reading that more, thanks.

 

[Sashimi]

Special congratulations to aMSa for placing 3rd at RoF!

 

[MrHazuki]

He played really well! Hopefully the term "gimmicky" won't apply to Yoshi for long.

(EDIT: My assumption below was wrong, thought it is still an easy way of describing the armour.)
Can't we please try to spread the message that Yoshi's DJ is essentially an aerial crouch cancel in every aspect.
Correct me if I'm wrong but he will tumble at the same %, scream at the same % and get the same amount of knockback.

 

[Sashimi]

I'm not entirely sure that the DJ armor works the same way that CC works. From what I've read, Crouch cancelling reduces knockback (and hitlag/histun by association) by 1/3, while the DJ is subtractive (attack hits, game calculates knockback, then subtracts 120). This should mean that they're not always equivalent.

In terms of use, they're identical though, and this is more important in my opinion, especially to non-Yoshi players.

Also, as Leffen said in his interview:
"That punish game is not a gimmick. Parrying is not a gimmick."

 

[tauKhan]

Crouch cancel is also different because if you get hit while crouching, you'll go into hitstun animation, so you won't stay in crouch, where as when you dj armor if the attack does 0 kb you will stay in the dj animation.

Edit: And crouch canceling is also dependent on the angle of the attack. Attacks with angle below 0° can't be cc'd. This means that if you are crouching you can't even cc most sakurai angled attacks like jabs, many nairs and bairs at low percents. Dj armor has no limitations like that.

 

[MrHazuki]

It seems I was misinformed.

 

[tauKhan]

Congratulations aMSa!

From what I've read, Crouch cancelling reduces knockback (and hitlag/histun by association) by 1/3

This is slightly inaccurate. Crouching reduces kb by 1/3, hitlag by 1/2. If you asdi down, and manage to hit the ground, you'll land and the landing animation will replace hitstun unless the kb causes knockdown.
So crouch canceling usually reduces lag you get from being hit to 4 frames with most characters.

 

[Sashimi]

I was under the impression that at very low %, crouching can actually prevent you from leaving the ground at all, so you wouldn't get the hitstun cancel from the ASDI down landing. That would leave you with just the 1/3 hitstun reduction because it's based on the knockback. Of course this doesn't happen unless you're close to 0% I suppose, but technically the ASDI down is a different mechanic (but arguably a more potent one).

I was aware of the ASDI down landing but forgot to mention it, haha.

Edit: Also re-reading your edit about the <0 angles, I would imagine that the ASDI doesn't work because of the forbidden DI rule, but knockback reduction still works because it's due to the crouching?

 

[V3ctorMan]

aMSa.. you are the man, you already know.. =D haha, man, You're doing so much good. <3 you man, I'll hear from you soon... We got alot of work to catch up on Yoshi's... Let's go Yoshi. <3

 

[tauKhan]

I was under the impression that at very low %, crouching can actually prevent you from leaving the ground at all, so you wouldn't get the hitstun cancel from the ASDI down landing. That would leave you with just the 1/3 hitstun reduction because it's based on the knockback. Of course this doesn't happen unless you're close to 0% I suppose, but technically the ASDI down is a different mechanic (but arguably a more potent one).

I was aware of the ASDI down landing but forgot to mention it, haha.

Edit: Also re-reading your edit about the <0 angles, I would imagine that the ASDI doesn't work because of the forbidden DI rule, but knockback reduction still works because it's due to the crouching?

I also thought and posted somewhere that too low kb up prevents you from going aerial, but someone brought up sakurai angled attacks which was a better explanation, as they don't send you in the air below 32 kb iirc. The forbidden di rule doesn't really matter to the asdi part, since you don't go aerial after the hit and can't land. Of course if you could sdi up you would go aerial, so the rule has an effect.
Many weak aerials can't be asdi cancelled when crouching even at 20 % or little more. I believe yoshi's weak nair is probably one of them, and strong nair against most characters at 0%. I have seen some top players take advantage of the feat, for example m2k sometimes does weak bairs when opponent goes crouching, and I saw over do it few times at ROF. And yes kb is always reduced when crouching.

Edit: the frame advantage you get from sakurai angled attacks is minimal, because kb is so low when cc doesn't work. It might be worth going for weak nair against crouch if your opponent expects cc to work properly. Though this really requires opponent to crouch so they don't get too much kb.

 

[Purpletuce]

Congrats to aMSa, I can't wait to watch some videos.

Yoshi's DJ and CC are similar enough that if you're trying to summarize it quick I think it is fair to compare them.

Also, a couple of weeks ago I went to a Northwest major, with around 90 entrants and got 17th. I wasn't really happy with any of my wins though :\ I feel kind of stagnant. I went last game last stock last hit with IB (A Canadian Marth who beat SFAT and SW in tourney) in a MM though, and had two close games with Shroomed in our MM.

Afterward I also hosted a ~30man tourney at my house where I placed poorly, but lost to players I usually lose to.

I think I'm taking a quick break from Yoshi to try to alleviate my feeling of stagnation.

 

[Mind Trick]

@aMSa congrats on your placing at RoF3
you were really inspiring to watch this weekend, really wanted to be there but... blame my bad planning for school stuff

 

[Dinowulf]

watching ROF was entertaining this weekend and I'm glad I got to see amsa play a live game.

 

[BigglesWorth]

So does this mean parried grab > shield grab-down throw > up airs is the the new meta against Sheik? lol

Edit: Spelling errors.

 

[Dinowulf]

So does this mean parried grab > shield grab-down throw > up airs is the the new meta against Sheik? lol

Edit: Spelling errors.

I hope so but you got to remember it was the PAL version. Where Shiek can't grab as effective as the ntsc version can.

 

[Sashimi]

Technically, Sheik's down throw was nerfed, not her grab. If parrying her grab is your intended solution to the Sheik matchup, it wouldn't be any tougher in NTSC than it is in PAL. It would only be more risky.

I think there are easier ways to get around this, but I'm not one to say no to having more options, so if you can parry grabs consistently, more power to you!

 

[Dinowulf]

Technically, Sheik's down throw was nerfed, not her grab. If parrying her grab is your intended solution to the Sheik matchup, it wouldn't be any tougher in NTSC than it is in PAL. It would only be more risky.

I think there are easier ways to get around this, but I'm not one to say no to having more options, so if you can parry grabs consistently, more power to you!

wait a min you can parry grabs in the ntsc version.....how would you parry a grab....

 

[BigglesWorth]

Technically, Sheik's down throw was nerfed, not her grab. If parrying her grab is your intended solution to the Sheik matchup, it wouldn't be any tougher in NTSC than it is in PAL. It would only be more risky.

I think there are easier ways to get around this, but I'm not one to say no to having more options, so if you can parry grabs consistently, more power to you!

It's not that parrying grabs is the best option but I feel in the case of Sheik (especially on FD). Grabs are the most guaranteed way they have setting up yoshi to punish their recovery and also they are going to want to chaingrab in NSTC. So its not like its necessarily the best option all the times but in this matchup, it's something a sheik will do a lot is therefore something to possibly exploit. I am trying to think classify matchups in my head in terms of what/when to crouch cancel dsmash, djcc, parry, sheilddrop bait, lightshiled, sidestep>punish, hardshiled>punish in my head. I feel if I could get these things systemized and to a point where they are on reaction in each specific matchup I would be more likely to counter when it really matters in a matchup and also render a lot of an opponent's tactics useless.

 

[Sashimi]

wait a min you can parry grabs in the ntsc version.....how would you parry a grab....

Same way that aMSa did it in PAL: Yoshi's parry works because he's invincible, so as long as you don't jump while the grab hitbox is still there, it will completely miss you.

Yellow = regular, Green = invincible.

Attempting a shieldgrab after the parry is reasonable against grabs in my opinion, since grabs are slow enough that Yoshi's 18-frame grab will still connect before the opponent can act again, and you can grab whenever you want, unlike jumping out of a parry where you only have the 6-frame window before your shield is out. This allows you to wait until you see your shield before you do the grab (ensuring you're using all 6 frames of invincibility), which prevents you from accidentally jumping too soon and getting grabbed.

The only trouble with grabs is that they're fast, and often difficult to predict. But as I said before, if you can do it, go for it!

It's not that parrying grabs is the best option but I feel in the case of Sheik (especially on FD). Grabs are the most guaranteed way they have setting up yoshi to punish their recovery and also they are going to want to chaingrab in NSTC. So its not like its necessarily the best option all the times but in this matchup, it's something a sheik will do a lot is therefore something to possibly exploit. I am trying to think classify matchups in my head in terms of what/when to crouch cancel dsmash, djcc, parry, sheilddrop bait, lightshiled, sidestep>punish, hardshiled>punish in my head. I feel if I could get these things systemized and to a point where they are on reaction in each specific matchup I would be more likely to counter when it really matters in a matchup and also render a lot of an opponent's tactics useless.

Spoiler: Some thoughts on this and the Sheik matchup in general

Sheik on FD is a challenge for sure... the main problem I have with parrying grabs is that they're often difficult to predict, and you can't react to them since most have very little startup (~7frames) and there's no real giveaway cue like an aerial or a laser has (jumping). This is less of a problem with Sheik than with Fox/Marth/Falcon since Sheik's dashdance is terrible, but she still has the option of wavedashing back or ftilting instead of the grab, and she can force approaches from you with needles (these are so annoying on FD!!!) and then grab you during landing lag/whatever mistake you might make. It's nice that we have the option of jumping out of the parry if it was unsuccessful and we need to get away, but this is unfortunately not possible if your intention is to grab, since our reaction time isn't really fast enough to check before jumping or grabbing.

I prefer to go with safely spaced aerials to bait out a whiffed shieldgrab (Fair is good for this), and I imagine parrying the wavedash > grab out of shield would be a very useful tool if I ever play a Sheik who doesn't fall for the spaced Fair (or Bair crossup). Unless of course the Sheik decides it's time to approach, in which case crouch cancelling is very useful for Yoshi. On any stage with platforms I feel that Yoshi has much more control than people think in this matchup, and I really like how Kimimaru makes use of them. He's very careful with his approaches and his platform use seems to pay off since Sheik can't really do much about it and if she tries, she's likely to end up in a bad spot while you're zipping around the stage.

One trick I see aMSa do a lot (and it really works well) is to use aerials to bait out something you can parry. He often does this with a retreating Fair, at just the right distance that his opponent thinks they can dash forward and SHFFL something (like Fox Nair), but by the time they get to him, the Fair landing lag is over and he parries. You could try something like this with Sheik's grab if you can recognize what will make your opponent go for the grab. This will probably be specific for each player, potentially different every time but also maybe limited to one of a few things that reliably work against Sheik mains.

I agree with what you have to say about exploiting what you know they'll do. I think I just have a different way of going about it (I'll admit parrying grabs is one thing I can't do consistently yet, but I'm not sure if I'd be doing it if I could anyway). Generally, I've noticed this about the Sheik matchup: if they're bad and they know about the chaingrab, they'll go for raw grabs in the neutral game, so I bait those out. If they're good, they'll use Sheik's more reliable pokes (aerial needles or Ftilt etc) and it's much tougher to deal with, but I think if you intend to use parrying in this matchup, make sure that you're prepared for those options as well.

And as always, a good punish game makes a world of difference for Yoshi

 

[Dinowulf]

I know this is kinda pushing it but do you know a specific clip where he does it against that shiek?

 

[BigglesWorth]

I know this is kinda pushing it but do you know a specific clip where he does it against that shiek?

2:37-2:39?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebQvOigmfDU&list=UUQu3nVEcuThP7y2F4ENJgzQ

 

[SheerMadness]

Quite sure that wasn't intentional.

It's far harder to intentionally parry grabs. I've never seen anyone in 64 or melee intentionally parry grabs.

PerhapsMan I jump parry out of grabs all the time in 64 so I'd assume jump parrying is safe in melee too.

It's why I stated in the parry guide that you ideally want to shield before you jump anytime an opponent is near you. You'll get unintentional parries (ie parrying grabs and such).