Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Purpletuce]

I didn't intend to insult his skill, so much as say that lots of people are expecting too much. I think everyone knows amsa is a hugely skilled player, and that is the reason for his success. Every yoshi player in this thread will primarily play against people who don't know the mu, but amsa is the only one to take his results to some of the top levels of play.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi is just a terrible character.

Can't expect anyone to be able to consistently place top 15-20 with him at national tourneys. Especially once the top players start understanding the match up.

Really has nothing to do with aMSa, it's purely about Yoshi's shortcomings as a character.

 

[MrHazuki]

I disagree.
Yoshi is a really good character. aMSa can do a lot better. He is the hero we have been waiting for.

 

[kofinater]

I've been thinking about this, I think yoshi has the same exact problem every other mario character(Mario, Peach, Doc, Luigi) has. Super insane punish game on fox, resistant to fox's combo game in general. You would think these matchups are in the mario characters favor no? The problem is it is relatively easy to cheese mario characters simply by not attacking. SHDL, forces you to play aggro but fox has very good anti aggro tools in uptilt and bair combined with his speed. Soon you are at 90% and in jab up smash or up throw up air range even though it seems like you were doing more work. That said i still think there is a ton of room in yoshi meta to improve and looking forward to pushing this character.

 

[Purpletuce]

I would say yoshi is definitely harder to win with, but in no way is yoshi limiting anyone. There will always be room for improvement, and I still think yoshi is one of the characters who has the most to improve on.

I think the biggest problem is maintaining consistency. To always hit all of your combo timings, and have perfect execution on spacing, and keep a focus on playing intelligently would take a ridiculous amount of skill.

Nobody is there yet.

 

[Krynxe]

Yoshi is very much limited. Despite having great room to improve (probably the greatest of the cast, I agree with that), it's still Yoshi and his flaws are very much exploitable if your opponent is smart about it. You can do your best to hide it, but once people start to truly understand how to fight Yoshi, anyone's ability to succeed with the character will be hindered. Calling Yoshi a good character is incredibly optimistic. He has a lot of potential, and you can win with him, but once character ignorance catches up with him, he'll continue to struggle due to his hindered options much like any mid/lower tier character.

Also, like Purpletuce said, consistency is one of the most difficult things to overcome for Yoshi, who is probably the most necessary-technical character in the game - as in, you literally need tech skill to do well. You can argue that Fox is more 'technical', but you really don't need to do anything particularly fancy to win with Fox. Yoshi needs a mixture of both incredible technical prowess, and good reads to convert off of a hit and kill, whereas a character like fox can get a kill off of a jab or upthrow, and has a variety of gimp options. If Yoshi didn't have such a glaring technical boundary, he would be a much more competitively sound character, however if he was more competitively viable, then people would understand the matchup more, which would (in my opinion) make him ultimately less viable in tournaments than he is now. At the end of the day, it's really just Yoshi metagame vs understanding the matchup - aMSa is seeing great success because he's advancing Yoshi's meta much faster than people are able to understand his character and Yoshi's general options. The mixture of difficulty in converting with Yoshi, along with how hard it is for him to get an opening AND his poor defensive options are some reasons why Yoshi still isn't 'good', but like I said has potential due to how much the character is capable of.

I love this character to death. Maybe we'll get to a point where Yoshi can be played so well that his huge tech ceiling can be ignored as a hindrance. I want to believe in #20EggsEggs

 

[Purpletuce]

Poor defensive options? I think his defensive options are ridiculously good. Parrying, djc, shield drops without shield stun, great ledge options, and a good cc... I'd say he has more problems with his weak approach options.

That's why yoshi can tear up aggressive players, but lose to defensive ones.

 

[Krynxe]

Well poor offensive options are very true, yes, but defensive options are also questionable. Parrying is incredibly unreliable, djc isn't really a defensive option however double jump armor can sometimes be used effectively if done right, approaching a shielding yoshi on a platform when you know he can shield drop is one of those matchup ignorant things that people still don't respect. I'll definitely agree with ledge options, however Yoshi is also incredibly gimpable when you're put in a slightly uncomfortable situation with him near the edge. Really when I say defensive options, I was referring to his slow roll, extra frames of lag when releasing his shield (most in the game), his poor grab and, of course, his inability to jump out of shield. Despite all of those weaknesses however, parrying and double jump armor do make up for a lot of it, so there are definitely plenty of characters with worse defensive options than Yoshi. But even so, I think that the problem is that people treat Yoshi with too much respect when it comes to the basic options (those I just mentioned), and DON'T respect him enough for his own unique options. Yoshi's defensive option can be pretty darn good when the Yoshi player is prepared and well-practiced, however the key is to not fall victim to that. Camping Yoshi, like you said, is generally the most favorable way to play the matchup, however you have to be able to also notice when the Yoshi is vulnerable to an approach and capitalize. A shielding Yoshi on the floor (not platform) is practically a sitting duck, as he has practically no viable options other than spotdodge, roll, or lightshield away. He cannot parry without releasing shield, rolling, or spotdodging and all these options leave Yoshi vulnerable for several frames making him highly susceptible to shield pressure (excluding the lightshield, but when Yoshi is holding shield for about a second you can assume he's doing this and waiting for you to hit his shield so you can just grab). I know not everything I'm saying is 100% accurate but that's because I'm not tryna write a book here lol. But yeah, he tears up aggressive players because he can capitalize and punish approaches when prepared, however Yoshi's ability to escape high pressure situations is pretty bad. (characters like falco and sheik have the potential to keep yoshi in these sorts of situations back-to-back-to-back)

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi is not a good char. Anyone who says that is just being biased IMO.

He's been low or bottom tier melee's entire existence because it's quite obvious his move set is pretty bad compared to the tourney viable characters. aMSa did not change his move set.

aMSa broke through with a character and certain tactics that people had 0 experience with. It will continue to get tougher, like were already seeing, as people understand the Yoshi match up better.

Even his incredible defensive options will become far less effective once people figure out how to deal with them. Parrying is quite easy to bait or just plow through with certain multi-hit moves. Once all the Fox mains figure out that Yoshi can not parry a drill there's no reason to approach with anything else. I told Colbol these exact words right before he played aMSa at Apex and aMSa did not get one parry off on him.

I'm not trying to be a hater or anything, just realistic. The Yoshi meta was never really developed until recently so there certainly is plenty of room for improvement. But he doesn't have the high ceiling some of you think he does. That's my take anyway.

 

[Kimimaru]

If Fox is just going to approach with drills, he has already been conditioned by the Yoshi player to approach with just one move. Yoshi has no reason to parry if the player knows Fox is going to drill. Drill has a smaller horizontal hitbox than Fox's other approach options, like N-air, and can easily be outspaced with F-smash.

I believe most of us think that Yoshi is mid-tier, not high or top-tier. His moveset may not be the best, but it's certainly not the worst either. He has a lot of powerful tools at his disposal that many characters below (and some above on the 2013 tier list) wish they had.

I'll definitely agree with ledge options, however Yoshi is also incredibly gimpable when you're put in a slightly uncomfortable situation with him near the edge.

Fox and especially Falco are gimpable near the ledge; we've all seen Shiz vs. M2K and other Marth mains kill spacies with a grab and a few little hits. The difference is that a smart Yoshi cannot be gimped at such a low % from any character other than Falco (and possibly Ganondorf), and even then he is fine if he just recovers high. He may not have a third jump, but his double jump alone is a great recovery that is better than many other characters' recoveries and usually guarantees him back on stage.

 

[SheerMadness]

Kimi do you really think you're going to shut down an elite Fox from approaching with F-smash? Doesn't sound the least bit realistic to me.

I meant aerials anyway. Fox still has grab and shine approaches which are also very safe vs Yoshi. Anyway my point is a smart Fox can fairly easily take away any threat of parrying in that match up.

 

[Sashimi]

Fox's grab doesn't do anything significant to Yoshi until around 80%, and even after that you can SDI the Uair. I'm not sure why this matchup is considered so horrible for Yoshi when Fox's best approach options get narrowed down to Dair and running Shine every time the matchup is brought up.

Camping is the real problem, not Fox approaching.

 

[SheerMadness]

Wasn't my intentional at all to discuss the Fox match up and how bad/good it is.

I was just giving an example of how easy it is to take away parrying. Visual evidence being Colbol/aMSa.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yoshi definitely doesn't have a huge problem is being gimped... But his ability to escape pressure I can agree is pretty poor.

I definitely think yoshi has a great defense if people don't try to adapt to his specific defenses. I'd like to stay he will still have a good defense, but it is probably going to get worse as people play more intelligently.

If you know fox will drill, fsmash is a great punish, and very reliable. The only way he will beat it is if you're wrong about the drill. When you're uncertain if he will drill or not, up angled for tilt will beat his approach, and wd back d tilt will also work well.

100% agree that camping is the problem, not the opponents approach. Yoshi has the tools to beat most approaches... He needs to worry about when he has to approach.

 

[BigglesWorth]

Bigglesworth here. So at one time on Dr. PP's ama I asked him what he thought was needed to open Yoshi up since he is the only one at Apex that actually showed he had real matchup knowledge. He said that Yoshi lacked, "ground game." I couldn't agree more. Also, Yoshi's probably his being camped by spacies, sheik on FD, and stage controlled by Peach more than anything right now. His weakest aspect was that facing his opponent head on in the center of the map is perhaps one of his weakest positions. That being sad, Peach's one main reason why she looses to Fox is simple...camping. What I saw from Armada in terms of adaptation was something interesting: passive aggressive spacing. It's spacing not that you threaten the enemy but short hop lasering is most likely going to cause a response (even if that response is a trade). He exerted stage control and dominated the positions where peach has better followups (such as where he can corner fox into a grab off on platforms which leads to a forward throw then a wall of fairs). Axe dominates with pikachu using these kinds of spacing timing scenarios. I call them, "pockets." Yoshi has them. A lot of them. The difference they aren't as general purpose as other characters (Peach and Pikachu notably). It seems everything with Yoshi is more complex xD. In conjunction with this idea, I have been labbing somethings to try teach myself possible "ground game" for yoshi.

TLDR: Yoshi needs some more ways outside of platforms and parries to deal with enemies. The way other players, Axe and Armada, deal with their weakness (spacies camping, which happens to be Yoshi's problems) is through two thinks, passive agressive spacing and very precise stage control. So I have been looking at ways to do more of that.

Okay some of the things I have been testing out recently:

• It's quite possible Yoshi gets almost guaranteed grabs- There are moves that if lightshielded up close give you enough knockback that you can shieldgrab while flying back and get a guarenteed grab (falco's fsmash I believe may be one). Also, egg lay to the ground is a great setup....Why? Well, your opponent has to mash....which means they have to do something. Your dash grab has lousy timings and small friggin grab box only in the middle, but is disjointed. This disjoint grab box combined with the knowledge the victim has to perform some action on the way out means that if you know how to dashdance dashgrab you gaurenteed a grab unless you're opponent full jumps, which if you react (which you can) then you can punish with an aerial or egg.
  
• Yoshi's dashdance game is AMAZING. So there are few qualities that Yoshi's dashdance game unique: his dj gives him other variable movement options, djwaveland in allows a quicker than wavedash tilt, his move forward > wavedash back movement can mix with dashdancing perfectly, he appears closer to than he actually, he can change and vary how close or how high his hurtbox appears but varying the motion, and he has more reactive options than any other character. What does this mean? Passive aggressive + dashdance game gives you all kinds of mixups and grabs or just setups for parries/djcc/pivot-fsmash/lightshieldgrabs. A funny quirk is constantly moving foward and wavedashing back and then lightshielding a lazer to move you forward really zooms you forward since Yoshi's lightshield transfers the momentum of the lazer, the lightshield, the dash forward, and the wavedash back. XD I love Yoshi. <3 Regardless, there is a lot to Yoshi's dashdance options. Forward djwaveland back fake outs into turn around nairs. Wavedash back dsmash is an a amazing bait. And if they don't want to respond to the dashdance, give them a bair/nair crossup or an weirdly spaced fair to throw them off.
  
• Yoshi has a lot of "pockets" or zones where he his followups are as guaranteed as the skill of the Yoshi player. The main ones a being a little bit in front of the platform from the middle and having your opponent in a reactive state while they are just out of your dsmash range. Another when the opponent is in a reactive position cady-corner to yoshi at certain points while Yoshi is on the above platform. Also, the most common one is the bair to platform carry which will either link into a dsmash or get caught in a tech chase/sheilddrop uair. I think pikachu has like 4 general purpose "pockets" that give him so much room, I have only seen 2 of them with Peach. I think Yoshi could have as many as 12 but they are much more situational than other characters.
  
• Yoshi can fair meteor spacies side for quick gimps (man I need to learn that spacing).
  
• Yoshi can punish clanks like a merf. I am not entirely certain but it seems ftilt up diagonal clank > fsmash/pivot fsmash is a thing. Dsmash is a great punishment on some clanks as well.
  
• I feel like Ftilt > Djc Nair > Fsmash is combo on spacies (or just a frame trap) somewhere between 10 to 25 % and also Filt > Fsmash. The great thing about this one is you can adjust the angle to compensate for the physics of your opponent so it could more general purpose.
  
• Sliding Parry Usmash is possible- you cancel your dash animation with a parry input into an usmash, doing a slide in parry > usmash. Although, I am uncertain how useful this could but it might serve as a way for punishing peach.
  
• Eggs, I believe have 4 frames or so advantage on shield and so you can give yourself windows to movement with them. Also that nice chunk of hitstun is great for setting up a 80% Fair kill on a Peach caught off guard. I did it a few times.
  
• Fundamental Stage Control, Passive Aggressive Spacing, and the ability to counter moves on reaction solves the laser camping problem on stages with platforms.
• Also we have some of the best sidesteps and dodge rolls in the game. Even Mr. Pressure Himself MangO does confirm these things are useful. I need to learn more situations to make use of these. xD

That's what I am working through bit by bit right now. Anything anyone can add, subtract, or disregard let me know. lol <3 I love this overly Complex Character so much <3

Edit: omitted pointless self intro. Animation not dash attack.

 

[Sashimi]

Going to reread your idea of "pockets" again later, but I think I have some idea of what you mean by it. I remember one time a friend told me about a bit of space in the shape of a V on the stages with three platforms (the V was centered in between the side platforms) that he basically didn't challenge because he felt Yoshi was too strong/had too many options when he was in that space.

Based on the data I have, eggs are pretty negative on shield unless they hit the shield very late in your throwing animation, but in that situation your opponent can probably just wavedash out of shield under your egg before it hits. This isn't terrible imo because Yoshi's shield pressure is still pretty good, and I think fairly unexplored. I think DJC Nair pressure with parries before the jumps is a strong option, and once I get good enough at it I'll see how well it works. There's enough time to parry any OoS option, even if the DJCs aren't frame perfect, so I think it has potential. I'll probably post something about this eventually.

I agree that Yoshi's dashdance is very good.
I'm going to look into this "cancel dash attack into parry" because it sounds interesting, even if it's just a fun trick. I knew about Parry > Dash Grab, but this sounds pretty neat too.

Edit: Also I thought I'd share that today in doubles I parried two moves at once and hit both players with my DJC Nair.

 

[BigglesWorth]

Going to reread your idea of "pockets" again later, but I think I have some idea of what you mean by it. I remember one time a friend told me about a bit of space in the shape of a V on the stages with three platforms (the V was centered in between the side platforms) that he basically didn't challenge because he felt Yoshi was too strong/had too many options when he was in that space.

Based on the data I have, eggs are pretty negative on shield unless they hit the shield very late in your throwing animation, but in that situation your opponent can probably just wavedash out of shield under your egg before it hits. This isn't terrible imo because Yoshi's shield pressure is still pretty good, and I think fairly unexplored. I think DJC Nair pressure with parries before the jumps is a strong option, and once I get good enough at it I'll see how well it works. There's enough time to parry any OoS option, even if the DJCs aren't frame perfect, so I think it has potential. I'll probably post something about this eventually.

I agree that Yoshi's dashdance is very good.
I'm going to look into this "cancel dash attack into parry" because it sounds interesting, even if it's just a fun trick. I knew about Parry > Dash Grab, but this sounds pretty neat too.

Edit: Also I thought I'd share that today in doubles I parried two moves at once and hit both players with my DJC Nair.

I meant dash animation. So when you sheild at a point of your animation you slide instead of stop. You can do this with parry and time/space the invincibility frames of the parry and invincibility of the usmash. It's fun. XD

 

[Purpletuce]

Biggles, I think your post was definitely an interesting read, but from reading your post it doesn't seem like your ideas have been fleshed out much against other players...

A lot of your ideas seem more theory-oriented, but I wouldn't agree with some of the things you're pointing out just from my own experience.

For example... Egg Lay into grab? If you miss your grab, you're letting yourself get hard punished for no reason. Your grab is hard to hit with, and easy to beat. If you're playing a floaty, they'll go over the grab, if it is anyone else, they'll probably beat that option on accident.

Clank -> pivot Fsmash?... ambitious, but so rarely that this would happen, and you would be able to pull it off, it isn't really a big deal.

 

[BigglesWorth]

Biggles, I think your post was definitely an interesting read, but from reading your post it doesn't seem like your ideas have been fleshed out much against other players...

A lot of your ideas seem more theory-oriented, but I wouldn't agree with some of the things you're pointing out just from my own experience.

For example... Egg Lay into grab? If you miss your grab, you're letting yourself get hard punished for no reason. Your grab is hard to hit with, and easy to beat. If you're playing a floaty, they'll go over the grab, if it is anyone else, they'll probably beat that option on accident.

Clank -> pivot Fsmash?... ambitious, but so rarely that this would happen, and you would be able to pull it off, it isn't really a big deal.

I wasn't really trying to make everything a big deal. Though, I did accidentally make make that one a big deal. You are right; I don't get enough practice to really flesh out the exact usefulness of a lot of things I am exploring. I was merely listing a lot of the things I was noticing when labbing and in some matches. Punishing clanks seems somewhat consistent to me; its helpful as something to be aware of if the situation requires it. I would take most of everything I say with a discerning attitude because it mostly lab work (things are possible and I have done but not gotten to do a lot with real matches since I am not that skill level to really be in a lot of matches). That doesn't mean some of my observations aren't useful or untrue, merely I can't affirm exactly to what extent they are. But as for the pockets and passive aggressive spacing, that's actually very true in experience. I know a few people who've played for years and have a basic yoshi as a fun side character (since they an everyone as a fun side character) that utilize those very aspects as a part of an effective strategy in matches. The ideas themselves are from what is true for top tier characters (Peach, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon particularly) that I have seen in mid to high level play as well. That theory has a much greater basis in experience. As for the clanks and egg lay into grab, you are right that it doesn't seem to be as general purpose as say shield drop uair. I should have clarified: I merely was putting up things I think are helpful to take note of and investigate. It might be more or less useful. Egg Lay > Dashdance grab is merely about setting up an ideal situation. Egg Lay is a move that be landed multiple times in a match at higher levels due to the ability to adjust the height of it, its decent speed, and its ability to be incorporated into Yoshi's platfoming. As for getting punished, that is a matter of how good the Yoshi player is at dashdaning and reading their opponent. It is something that I think (not guarenteed) be done a good amount of the time and get a good followup. Egg Lay allows for us to setup a position we want on the stage and the options of how to follow up an opponents break out. Dashdance grab means tacking on extra damage (dthrow > juggle, uthrow > platform chase, fthrow > edgeguard). It's a good way of setting up those pockets while applying damage. My point is that Yoshi could very well have a pretty functional grab game that compliments his judo style of throwing the opponent into the right positions and countering their momentum and turning it against them. The safest option would of course be for someone to full jump or a floatie to go out of the egg but you know they are mashing or performing an aerial which means you can position your dashdance to create an open position for a followup while threatening a grab > followup on the ground. A form of checking the opponent. A check that is easily accessible and can be thrown in as mixup to intercept an opponent's encroachment in Yoshi's movement. That got too complex. XD Just to be clear, it is theory. I am trying to test it to see how much it goes into practice. I want to develop a solid ground game/fundemental stage control now so that I can avoid being trapped into a style that solely relies on waiting, platform dancing, basic parry reads, and sheilddrops. The important idea is that building a viable ground game (even if it is complex and hard to learn; of course if I wanted an easy character I wouldn't main Yoshi) is an overall needed and worthy investment to keep the character fully viable in neutral to create a more powerful skeleton from which his counters, cancels, parries, and crossups can be en-fleshed onto. That was my point. Complex? Maybe. That's why I like Yoshi. XD

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't feel like making a big response... I definitely agree that a ground game is important though, and you made some other interesting points as well. Good luck in your development.

 

[BigglesWorth]

I don't feel like making a big response... I definitely agree that a ground game is important though, and you made some other interesting points as well. Good luck in your development.

Thanks. I am sorry for my long winded responses. XD It's a bad habit. xD

 

[Purpletuce]

No need to apologize, I admire the ambition. I'm just too lazy to mirror you.

 

[hamyojo]

I parry now and all the players that I've always felt like I should beat I'm beating. It's an amazing feeling. Lasers aren't so heart poundingly scary any more, I can just smirk and press a few buttons to get powershield>follow up. So wild.
Also I learned that I. supposedly made a Marth player (Who's really good, one of the best from Texas) quit because I kept knocking him out in tournies. Kinda sad news but I feel like that could be a certain milestone for a player or something.
I think I need to work on parrying characters that aren't spacies, and I've kinda given up on playing Yoshi vs Peach. I just... it's not as fun as I ever want it to be. Nothing I want to happen happens. I'll just play Fox or Young Link or Mewtwo.

Also, what do you guys think of the Yoshi vs Young Link matchup? I think they can both punish each other very hard and Young Link has some strong tools like bomb, down/up air, and general camping that is very strong against Yoshi. 20EggsEggs Yoshi counter pick maybe... I haven't lost to one yet, but our local good Young Link main does make me think that if he used his tools right I could possibly be in trouble.

 

[Kimimaru]

Young Link can camp Yoshi well, but I think Yoshi has the advantage overall thanks to his better killing power and eggs. I played a lot of SFAT's Young Link at a low tier tournament and he had a lot of trouble closing out my stocks. Choose small stages against him and you should be good.

 

[Sashimi]

Not being able to parry the bombs makes me sad but I don't think the matchup is that bad. Maybe a little in YL's favour at worst.

 

[Purpletuce]

Young Link sucks...the real Yoshi counterpicks are the good characters, playing smart.

Also, aMSa looking great in KoC pools. He seemed like he was chosing his positioning really well vs. Peach, I wonder if he has some MU experience there....

 

[SheerMadness]

Not sure if you guys are watching but Lucky and Mango have just been spamming dair vs aMSa at KoC 4 and there's really nothing he can do. Completely took away any parry threat like I suggested.

He was actually parrying a lot of the dairs 1st hit. But he just got hit by the subsequent hits so it really doesn't matter.

But he beat M2K, too good. I missed his set vs M2K which makes me sad. =[

 

[BigglesWorth]

Not sure if you guys are watching but Lucky and Mango have just been spamming dair vs aMSa at KoC 4 and there's really nothing he can do. Completely took away any parry threat like I suggested.

He was actually parrying a lot of the dairs 1st hit. But he just got hit by the subsequent hits so it really doesn't matter.

But he beat M2K, too good. I missed his set vs M2K which makes me sad. =[

Just my personal opinion, You can armor them, trade them, or dashdance bait them. If you get a fox player to respect options, then their neutral is really easily telegraphed. Just because something is hard to parry, doesn't mean yoshi can't deal with it. What makes parry truly effective is that you can mix it in with his other options and cover all the situations or counters you couldn't have otherwise. Parry is not Yoshi's only tool or even his best tool in a neutral situation. If foxes drill or dair too much, they can be punished just as hard as any other option. It's matter of how fast amsa was adapting versus the other more experienced players (all of whom are a 100,000 times better than me). This is just analysis from watching a crap ton of matches and labbing everyday for hours. So, take the opinion as it is.
Edit: Fixing Gramatical errors.

 

[SheerMadness]

You can armor them, trade them, or dashdance bait them. If you get a fox player to respect options, then their neutral is really easily telegraphed.

That's just not true when you get to the elite Fox players. You think Mango, Lucky, or Colbol's neutral game get's more predictable just because they cut out nair for dair? No way. They don't become less intelligent players just because they use dair as their primary aerial vs Yoshi. They really lose nothing by replacing nair with dair while at the same time completely neutralizing one of Yoshi's best defensive strategies.

Parry is not Yoshi's only tool or even his best tool in a neutral situation.

Now this I agree with. aMSa has a bad habit of attempting to parry dairs. Parry will not win, he needs to stop trying to challenge them.

 

[itsbme]

Scar I think said amsa is kinda like armada, in the sense when he gets one hit it hurts so much. I think amsa isn't top 10 in terms of overall play, but his ability to put on the hurt is like top 5 caliber. I only saw part of him vs m2k, but I heard he ripped his fox and marth apart. Amsa seemed to be in top form this tournie.

 

[kofinater]

aMSa looked super good against m2k, really interesting shield pressure by buffering roll after nair/uair, once he conditioned m2k not to grab he could be djc nair happy and widdle down shield without remorse. Next yoshi meta to counter fox's dair would be crouch as if the bait for parry then dashdance. Yoshi has a bunch of interesting options out of dashdance especially with the leniency of djl vs pivot. I am trying to implement dash dance djl uptilt into my game and I hope aMSa does as well. Super next level is when fox's overshoot nair instead of dair to beat dashdance and we start parrying out of dash.

 

[V3ctorMan]

For those of you who haven't seen it yet... well it's here already..

aMSa vs M2k - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDnKE5J7ki8

<3 =D

 

[Dinowulf]

For those of you who haven't seen it yet... well it's here already..

aMSa vs M2k - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDnKE5J7ki8

<3 =D

I just saw the set i cried manly tears. he did a great job. Made every Yoshi proud

 

[itsbme]

For those of you who haven't seen it yet... well it's here already..

aMSa vs M2k - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDnKE5J7ki8

<3 =D

not only is amsa good, he has such a great attitude. Even when he loses he has fun.

 

[Dinowulf]

After asking perhaps he was suggesting i post the matches i wanted critiqued here.

Warning: During the last match of 16:10 (My friend randomly plays the yoshi's story in a loud manner so please watch your headphones)

 

[Kimimaru]

I saw the first two matches so far. Here are my notes:

Pros:
-You choose good moves to use in most of your situations
-Great egg aim
-Pretty good punishes
-Good fundamentals overall

Cons:
-Tech needs a bit more work; I saw several missed L-cancels, no ledgestalls, and few fast DJC aerials
-This sort of relates to the above, but work more on your movement and speed. I saw some wavelands on the platforms of FoD, which is great, but Yoshi needs that silky smooth platform movement!
-No jab reset punishes; the Falco missed many techs at around 30%, which could've been punished with a jab reset then DJC U-airs
-No parry attempts (that I saw, at least). I was able to read the Falco's approach just by watching and would have attempted to parry his aerials and punish with N-air. Fortunately, Falco's aerials are some of the easiest to parry, so if you play with your friend a lot be sure to try and parry his approaches

Conclusion: You have solid fundamentals and a good grasp on the character (what Yoshi can/can't do in given situations). For your punish game, I suggest you start incorporating jab resets and longer combo strings. For your neutral game, I'd suggest practicing your tech more, like DJC aerials, wavelands, and the like. I believe aMSa has a lot of ECE practice techniques so I suggest giving some of those a try (my personal favorite is Event 50). Keep it up and you'll be a great player in no time!

 

[Sashimi]

^Pretty much what Kimimaru said.

I also noticed some situations where dash grab could have been used to techchase.

The lasers didn't seem to give you much trouble directly, but you were jumping an awful lot in response to them, and if a Falco player picks up on that they can really take advantage of it. Once you get a hang of it, try mixing up parrying/powershielding with the ways that you already have of dealing with lasers

 

[kofinater]

so I saw amsa doing djc nair/uair into roll, Is that beatable other than reading the roll?

 

[Purpletuce]

Dair is definitely hard to beat, and I definitely noticed aMSa was working around it. You have to realize he wasn't trying to parry the dairs... I'd assume he does what I do, and can react to them jumping at you, in which case he might have to be reading what type of aerial they're using. Parying the dair just means he thought they were going to nair again.

I still maintain that getting them scared to nair is a solid advantage, because Fox dair is a lot easier to space around or intercept than his nair.

DJC Nair -> roll is super situational, if they don't committ to something after getting DJC naired, then they can just react to your roll, and instead of you being in control, as you were when you started your pressure, now they are in controll, and you're in your shield.

 

[BigglesWorth]

I believe lightshielidng dair has gotten me a free sheild grab before. So that could be a thing. You have to be at a good spacing so that dair sends you back at the right speed and distance for the shield-grab. But the spacing is close to parrying I think. I like to think of an image of hammer and an anvil with the dair being the hammer. That angle should be roughly like 30 degrees up from the center of the shield (something like that).