INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
you should post this on the zedla boards.
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Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!
- Thread starter N64
- Start date
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
lol zhu yayuhz
I'll be practicing that double direct UpB soon. When I get it, I'll be practicing the angle, twice the same way. THAT will be sooooo usefull
Ask about Pika, hosted by ICG (and a liiiiiittle bit Axe)
I'll be practicing that double direct UpB soon. When I get it, I'll be practicing the angle, twice the same way. THAT will be sooooo usefull
Ask about Pika, hosted by ICG (and a liiiiiittle bit Axe)
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
I read that over again and loled too.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Ask about Pika, hosted by ICG (and a liiiiiittle bit Axe)
I hate pikachu. I'll go IC against all of you down-smash chain throws for all of you. why am I the only who cares of thinks about pichu then pikachu players care about what I know and I end up helping pikachu metgame more than pichu metagame by giving both sides the same facs.
AXE 09
Smash Master
So uhh... Pikachu's pretty cool
Aright, question. Can u zip-zap UpB diagnally twice the same direction?
And yea, I'm loving pikachu right now. Once i got the hang of the UpBs, its like...WOW, same goes for chain grabbing falcon on FD. I dunno why i had trouble with that
And yea, I'm loving pikachu right now. Once i got the hang of the UpBs, its like...WOW, same goes for chain grabbing falcon on FD. I dunno why i had trouble with that
AXE 09
Smash Master
As far as I know, you cannot sadly. Going upwards twice only works because when you press up-b and then let go of the control stick so it is in a neutral position, the default direction that it goes is up. With precisely timed tilts, you can "trick" Pikachu into going his default direction (which is up) a second time.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
Upb shenanigans are the best.
soju
SD God
Lol, off the topic of the big Up-B mystery, I need a little help on how to deal with a pillaring Falco from a shield? He gets the L-cancels so shield grab is out of the question, should I U-smash outa shield, jump out of shield into attack, or wavedash? So basically what is the best option for me? XD
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
upair is really legit. now pikachu/pichu has the most techical/hard recovery in the game. That's silly.
Uair out of shield comes out on frame 6
Shield Grab comes out on frame 7
Usmash out of shield comes out on frame 9
All of them should be able to be snuck in on Falco's pillar, but the timing varies based on when he's doing his dairs and because of Pikachu's stupid low grab box, you pretty much can never actually shield grab. Uair is your best bet if your back is to them so that you can hit with the first hitbox, but if he's pillaring the front of your shield, you need really on point usmash timing to avoid just rolling away.
Shield Grab comes out on frame 7
Usmash out of shield comes out on frame 9
All of them should be able to be snuck in on Falco's pillar, but the timing varies based on when he's doing his dairs and because of Pikachu's stupid low grab box, you pretty much can never actually shield grab. Uair is your best bet if your back is to them so that you can hit with the first hitbox, but if he's pillaring the front of your shield, you need really on point usmash timing to avoid just rolling away.
tdk_Samurai
Smash Ace
well, uair outa shield and the shield grab/upsmash outa shield are different, unless your waiting for the dair to hit then you try it, but you might get shined, or you could wait for the dair to hit, and the shine to hit, but you could get grabed instead of shined. But if your trying to upair them outa shield before they actually get close to the ground, that is prolly the best of the 4 options I see presented. In my past experience, doing that, usually ends up in a trade, once in a while you'll win, I don't believe I've ever actually lost completely, I generally just trade though.
What I usually do, since pika's shield is awfull as ****, I generally just roll at an ideal time. They usually whiff the dair, and miss the l cancle due to it, and the fight has kinda reset. But that usually doesn't get me in a much better position, cause when that happens, I'm getting lasered, so pick your poison, pillars or lasers.
which reminds me, man, what do I normally do against falcos?...
smym 9 - get *****
smym10 - get *****
tims 3 - get *****
jab 2 - get kinda *****
MAS - go puff
man, I hate falco
What I usually do, since pika's shield is awfull as ****, I generally just roll at an ideal time. They usually whiff the dair, and miss the l cancle due to it, and the fight has kinda reset. But that usually doesn't get me in a much better position, cause when that happens, I'm getting lasered, so pick your poison, pillars or lasers.
which reminds me, man, what do I normally do against falcos?...
smym 9 - get *****
smym10 - get *****
tims 3 - get *****
jab 2 - get kinda *****
MAS - go puff
man, I hate falco
mogwai, i thought u were a falco player lol. Thanks for the clarity btw
EDIT: pikachad's pikachu is fun to watch =).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIGo-QS1Oeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMQi7HWSWGs
soju
SD God
lol well i think ima stick with the uair due to popular vote and testing it out XD
and lasers aren't usually a problem when you power shield em back to the falco 2 or 3 times but not everyone is that pro <3
so now all i gots to worry about is that dair >.>'
and lasers aren't usually a problem when you power shield em back to the falco 2 or 3 times but not everyone is that pro <3
so now all i gots to worry about is that dair >.>'
AXE 09
Smash Master
Everyone pretty much explained it already, but here's what I see from my point of view.
If they are shield pressuring behind you, you should pretty much ALWAYS Uair out of shield. I will usually do it once the shine hits my shield. When I try it after the Dair hits my shield, I will sometimes get hit by the shine instead. So I just hold my shield up for 2 attacks. The shine will rarely shield stab you, so if you block the Dair, you usually don't have to worry about the shine.
If they are in front of you, I always love Usmash OOS after they shine, but sometimes I end up losing that battle. From all the times I've done it, it seems like there's an equal chance I'll either get hit by the dair, trade with the Dair (which actually isn't bad at all), or just hit them with my Usmash.
I think that I'm gonna try WD OOS backwards next time I fight a falco and he tries to shield pressure in front of me. I fight Tee Ay Eye and he does it all the time against me when I play falco and he plays Marth, so why wouldn't it work with Pikachu?
If they are shield pressuring behind you, you should pretty much ALWAYS Uair out of shield. I will usually do it once the shine hits my shield. When I try it after the Dair hits my shield, I will sometimes get hit by the shine instead. So I just hold my shield up for 2 attacks. The shine will rarely shield stab you, so if you block the Dair, you usually don't have to worry about the shine.
If they are in front of you, I always love Usmash OOS after they shine, but sometimes I end up losing that battle. From all the times I've done it, it seems like there's an equal chance I'll either get hit by the dair, trade with the Dair (which actually isn't bad at all), or just hit them with my Usmash.
I think that I'm gonna try WD OOS backwards next time I fight a falco and he tries to shield pressure in front of me. I fight Tee Ay Eye and he does it all the time against me when I play falco and he plays Marth, so why wouldn't it work with Pikachu?
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
I you really want to time it, you can uptilt, but I do not recommend that at all, and you just trade hits anyway.
AXE 09
Smash Master
I think he was talking about being pressured while you are shielding. I wish you could uptilt out of shield, then utilt might actually have some uses.
This kinda got me thinking though... Does Utilt beat falco's Dair if you time it right? I've never tried it. Furthermore, does the sour spot of Pika's usmash beat falco's dair?
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
I think you should look at this. Also pikachu's uptilt should beat his dair cause pichu's can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWAEr5fsXCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWAEr5fsXCc
-Chad-
Slackerator
AXE 09
Smash Master
I've already watched this A LOT lol. I actually used this to test out the double up-b, and I posted it in that thread as a reference if you look in the origional post.
I know that Uair beats Falco's dair. So pichu can beat falco's dair with utilt? I'd imagine that pikachu has a longer utilt, so you're probably right lol. I'd like to test it, but it's gonna be kinda hard by myself.
Geez, so much testing lately o.O
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
that's because of fianls, party why I can't and why i'm starting to lose the nerd war over up-B.
I tested it by myself in 1/4 speed so it's wierd to SHFFL with falco and up-tilt as pichu at the same time.
I tested it by myself in 1/4 speed so it's wierd to SHFFL with falco and up-tilt as pichu at the same time.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Shoot I'm sorry, I should've been more specific.
I'm imagining a scenario where Falco is coming from directly above you. I know that moves like IC's Uair and Sheik's utilt can beat it, because they are more disjointed. I'm wondering if Pikachu's Utilt can do the same thing. I know his Uair can with good timing. I think I might start using Utilt to beat Falco's dair if it's possible.
I'm imagining a scenario where Falco is coming from directly above you. I know that moves like IC's Uair and Sheik's utilt can beat it, because they are more disjointed. I'm wondering if Pikachu's Utilt can do the same thing. I know his Uair can with good timing. I think I might start using Utilt to beat Falco's dair if it's possible.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
But I believe up-tilt would come out slower than f-tilt and up-smash because only the ending part hits in front.
Axe I have question, have you ever wall teched marth's F-smash 2 times in a row when sweetspoting the edge(FD) and lived from the 3rd one? I just did as pichu(his sweetspot is the size of his head and it's much harder to tech with than anyone) I'm just proud I never notice when I tech so I normally think I just died and i'm sad, I once teched 3 times before I noticed that I was alive as fox.
Axe I have question, have you ever wall teched marth's F-smash 2 times in a row when sweetspoting the edge(FD) and lived from the 3rd one? I just did as pichu(his sweetspot is the size of his head and it's much harder to tech with than anyone) I'm just proud I never notice when I tech so I normally think I just died and i'm sad, I once teched 3 times before I noticed that I was alive as fox.
I do full hop thunder jolt most of the time there. you can pretty easily cover all forward B angles and then just fall under him for an easy spike when he firefoxes.
So like pivot in the air, or should I dash dance then full hop?
I seen Axe do this, but I kinda noticed that people usually don't let it happen more then once. Is there any other ways?
Also, i never tried this...will Pika's downsmash have priority over Fox's side b? ( Coverng the ledge/ or not)
I seen Axe do this, but I kinda noticed that people usually don't let it happen more then once. Is there any other ways?
Also, i never tried this...will Pika's downsmash have priority over Fox's side b? ( Coverng the ledge/ or not)
no DD, you just full hop and shoot a thunder jolt backwards at the right time.
if you're planning on eating through the forward B, just use ftilt.
if you're planning on eating through the forward B, just use ftilt.
tdk_Samurai
Smash Ace
well, if you attempt to go off the stage after the thunder, yea, people catch on pretty quick, my advice if you REALLY wanna tail spike them from a b throw, cause lets face it, it looks sexy, do what mogwai just said but rarely.
I much prefer to jolt but stay on the stage, that way the jolt covers forward b, and you can f tilt an up b if that comes later. Then after the up tilt, easy edge gaurd, or if you REALLY want, there should be enough time to dropzone tailspike, but I much prefer to f tilt untill they are at like 400 percent then an f smash will usually kill them. I just like to play it safe I guess lately. I mean I wish I was good enough to be flashy, but I'm not, so playing safe pikachu is how I try to get to the top....
I much prefer to jolt but stay on the stage, that way the jolt covers forward b, and you can f tilt an up b if that comes later. Then after the up tilt, easy edge gaurd, or if you REALLY want, there should be enough time to dropzone tailspike, but I much prefer to f tilt untill they are at like 400 percent then an f smash will usually kill them. I just like to play it safe I guess lately. I mean I wish I was good enough to be flashy, but I'm not, so playing safe pikachu is how I try to get to the top....
400%.........?
How does a F tilt beat Fox's Up B ?.......then you said Up Tilt???? Whaaaaa..I'm so lost.
I just want to know best way to edge guard Fox after a back throw, the options if they Forward B, if they firefox, or if they wait a bit then firefox.
i know pretty much after a backthrow off stage, you just wanna take the foxs jump (either by Ftilt if they try to recover close or running nair, Uair, or w/e) but still have time to drop down and get a tail whip spike.
Dsmash would take too long to get a spike in and if fox angle's correctly, he could hit you. But then, dsmash might work at times. i dunno
EDIT: yea, you jump off stage and shoot a bolt.
Dsmash would take too long to get a spike in and if fox angle's correctly, he could hit you. But then, dsmash might work at times. i dunno
EDIT: yea, you jump off stage and shoot a bolt.
"pivot" has a special meaning in Melee and it's not about changing your facing in the air with a neutral B, which is what I'm talking about.
dsmash doesn't send at a useful angle and doesn't cover high options the way a full hop thunder jolt does. The only time I'd use dsmash when edgeguarding is when they're coming from below and you're trying to get the stupid stage spike, but there are always better edgeguarding options. 90% of my Pikachu edgeguarding is made up of uair, ftilt and neutral B, with the remaining 10% being a hodgepodge of dtilt, dair, nair, fair, and fsmash, but these are just when they seem to make sense, they're not core moves in my edgeguarding strategy.
tdk_Samurai
Smash Ace
400 percent was a joke
for beating his up b
I'm assuming fox is going to be below the stage or at stage level, giving him almost no other option but to go through you or sweet spot. if you throw out an f tilt properly timed, it will send him back of stage every time
if fox is above the stage and can attempt to go over you, then as I see it, there is no one thing that is best, I've seen people catch them with uair > bairs, dairs, nairs, or just jumping tailspikes, idk what others would say is best in that situation
but like mogwai said about the pivot jolt, thats good against a forward b, and gives you time to set up for up b, so you can throw your f tilt out.
and I think you missread the uptilt thing, I believe your refering to when I said untill
edit: and about d smash edgeguarding, basically what mogwai said, but you gotta space it right so you don't get hit, and at low percents its untechable which is nice. but yea like mogwai said again, there are usually safer options. I generally do this when I feel I'm spaced right for a dsmash, and don't have time to move at all to do anything else.
N64
Smash Champion
Sorry, been busy lately. Lets see, gimping fox from backthrow.
Yes, what mogwai said works alright. There are a number of things you can do, and to an extent it's based on what you predict him to do. Here's a list (not necessarily complete) on what fox CAN do and what you can do to stop it. This is assuming fox is at mid percents (like 50%ish), so he goes an average distance on the throw.
1. Jump and forward B. This can come at 3 common levels: low enough to sweetspot the edge, at stage level to go through you (and potentially hit you), or high to try to get over you/get to a platform. The first one is beaten by a down-angled ftilt (which will send them low and force them to upB which you can usually just run off fastfall dair them as a followup). The second one (stagelevel) you can either ftiltif your reaction time is fast enough, or dash backwards a little bit (trying to position so that you'll be near the end of their upB), shield, and then punish them out of shield with grab/usmash/whatever. They can short their upB, however, which can mess with your spacing (though ftilting near the edge at the right time will cover every option at this height). For the third option (above you), you can follow their upB and usually be able to punish them before they land and recover from the lag, with a little reaction speed.
2. Jump and upB. There's a decent amount of variability to this, as they can choose at what time they jump (as long as they don't wait long enough that they can't recover), what time they start their upB (though it'll usually be at the height of their jump), and what direction they go (again, within the directions that they can recover with). The variability makes general options not always work, but there are a few things to note. When upBing fox hangs in the air for a second or two. This means it's easier to position tailspike/intercept/jolt/whatever in this time. Try to force him to show you where he's going to start upBing from and then use your speed to get to him before (or very soon after) he starts to move from the upB. From the distance away he is from the stage, you can usually tell whether he'll go high to try to get above you, go through you (rare), or try to sweetspot the stage. Going high is often tailspikable, going through you is punishable oos (and also interceptable, most commonly with ftilt), and sweetspotting is interceptable with downangled ftilts (usually) or just edgehoggable.
3. Jump and sweetspot. Downangled ftilt if you have time. Downsmash if you think he's going to miss the sweetspot.
4. Jump and airdodge. Usually you can ftilt and still follow him after the airdodge if the ftilt misses. If he uses it a lot though, just wait and punish where he lands.
Ok, that's a lot of guessing and quick reaction times for punishments. What you probably want is what are your most common, 'best' options. Mogwai mentioned my top choices already, but i'll try to answer your questions on them.
My main four responses are:
1. Full jump out and jolt. This covers most fox defensive spacing recoveries (where he jumps back and forward/upBs to the stage). Once the jolt hits, you are in prime position to tailspike or nair most often.
2. Full jump and jolt away from the stage. Jump, press slightly in the direction of off the stage, hit B. This covers standard or less hesitant jump forward/upB recoveries.
3. Down-angled ftilt. This covers any sweetspot attempt and can hit the quick jump->forwadBs anywhere near the stage. If they hold back and try up forward/upB to the stage instead, just ftilt again.
4. Wait. The previous 3 commit you to an action that could whiff, and have various levels of lag/positional disadvantages to them. Sometimes you can still punish fox's recovery if you just wait (or dashdance or some idol movement to make fox think you're setting up for something while you still leave yourself open to punish) and then, well, punish what he does.
Also, what everyone else said, heh. Hope that helps.
As far as pika v. peach, I'm not that good at it, heh. Chudat probably has the best pika vs. peaches atm. But, anyways, a lot of what can mess you up in this fight is peach's priority is retardedly good. What you have to do is mostly use your mobility and any quick moves you have to knock peach around and build up damage before you set up a usmash. Tailspike can kill occasionally, as peach's vertical recovery is kinda limited, but your most common kill move will likely be usmash.
You want to try to hit her before she can pull out an appropriate move, or fake approaches and get her to throw out a move early, outspace it, then punish it. DON'T try to trade with peach with anything but maybe usmash (the reward for usmash is pretty big) as most times it won't trade and you'll just get hit. Use your speed to move around outside of her range, bait approaches, and dash back to punish them. If she's floatcancelling aerials, try to time it so that you dash away as the aerial comes down, and dash back to a grab or (preferably) jc usmash or jump in with an aerial. Be weary of her quick dsmashes/dashattacks after floatcancelled aerials, though. Usmash oos works well against her dashattack approaches (as long as pika's crappy shield holds). Uair works wonders if she gets above you because she can't really do much to get around it or go through it. Try to chip away at her with uairs and other aerials occasionally when she's in the air, and play a spacing game when she's on or close to the ground.
Turnips aren't much of a hassle. Shield them (and immediately roll away if she's following with an aerial), jump over them, catch them if you're daring, but generally just use your mobility to get around them. Conversely, jolts kinda mess with peach, especially if she likes floating low the ground as they will bounce along and hit her. Jolts should either force her into her shield (where her reactions to your approaches are more predictable) or into the air (which can let you get under her and create havoc). Just watch out for her trying to run under them if you jolt closeish.
That's what I can think of atm, let me know if there's any specific issues you're having against peach.
Yes, what mogwai said works alright. There are a number of things you can do, and to an extent it's based on what you predict him to do. Here's a list (not necessarily complete) on what fox CAN do and what you can do to stop it. This is assuming fox is at mid percents (like 50%ish), so he goes an average distance on the throw.
1. Jump and forward B. This can come at 3 common levels: low enough to sweetspot the edge, at stage level to go through you (and potentially hit you), or high to try to get over you/get to a platform. The first one is beaten by a down-angled ftilt (which will send them low and force them to upB which you can usually just run off fastfall dair them as a followup). The second one (stagelevel) you can either ftiltif your reaction time is fast enough, or dash backwards a little bit (trying to position so that you'll be near the end of their upB), shield, and then punish them out of shield with grab/usmash/whatever. They can short their upB, however, which can mess with your spacing (though ftilting near the edge at the right time will cover every option at this height). For the third option (above you), you can follow their upB and usually be able to punish them before they land and recover from the lag, with a little reaction speed.
2. Jump and upB. There's a decent amount of variability to this, as they can choose at what time they jump (as long as they don't wait long enough that they can't recover), what time they start their upB (though it'll usually be at the height of their jump), and what direction they go (again, within the directions that they can recover with). The variability makes general options not always work, but there are a few things to note. When upBing fox hangs in the air for a second or two. This means it's easier to position tailspike/intercept/jolt/whatever in this time. Try to force him to show you where he's going to start upBing from and then use your speed to get to him before (or very soon after) he starts to move from the upB. From the distance away he is from the stage, you can usually tell whether he'll go high to try to get above you, go through you (rare), or try to sweetspot the stage. Going high is often tailspikable, going through you is punishable oos (and also interceptable, most commonly with ftilt), and sweetspotting is interceptable with downangled ftilts (usually) or just edgehoggable.
3. Jump and sweetspot. Downangled ftilt if you have time. Downsmash if you think he's going to miss the sweetspot.
4. Jump and airdodge. Usually you can ftilt and still follow him after the airdodge if the ftilt misses. If he uses it a lot though, just wait and punish where he lands.
Ok, that's a lot of guessing and quick reaction times for punishments. What you probably want is what are your most common, 'best' options. Mogwai mentioned my top choices already, but i'll try to answer your questions on them.
My main four responses are:
1. Full jump out and jolt. This covers most fox defensive spacing recoveries (where he jumps back and forward/upBs to the stage). Once the jolt hits, you are in prime position to tailspike or nair most often.
2. Full jump and jolt away from the stage. Jump, press slightly in the direction of off the stage, hit B. This covers standard or less hesitant jump forward/upB recoveries.
3. Down-angled ftilt. This covers any sweetspot attempt and can hit the quick jump->forwadBs anywhere near the stage. If they hold back and try up forward/upB to the stage instead, just ftilt again.
4. Wait. The previous 3 commit you to an action that could whiff, and have various levels of lag/positional disadvantages to them. Sometimes you can still punish fox's recovery if you just wait (or dashdance or some idol movement to make fox think you're setting up for something while you still leave yourself open to punish) and then, well, punish what he does.
Also, what everyone else said, heh. Hope that helps.
As far as pika v. peach, I'm not that good at it, heh. Chudat probably has the best pika vs. peaches atm. But, anyways, a lot of what can mess you up in this fight is peach's priority is retardedly good. What you have to do is mostly use your mobility and any quick moves you have to knock peach around and build up damage before you set up a usmash. Tailspike can kill occasionally, as peach's vertical recovery is kinda limited, but your most common kill move will likely be usmash.
You want to try to hit her before she can pull out an appropriate move, or fake approaches and get her to throw out a move early, outspace it, then punish it. DON'T try to trade with peach with anything but maybe usmash (the reward for usmash is pretty big) as most times it won't trade and you'll just get hit. Use your speed to move around outside of her range, bait approaches, and dash back to punish them. If she's floatcancelling aerials, try to time it so that you dash away as the aerial comes down, and dash back to a grab or (preferably) jc usmash or jump in with an aerial. Be weary of her quick dsmashes/dashattacks after floatcancelled aerials, though. Usmash oos works well against her dashattack approaches (as long as pika's crappy shield holds). Uair works wonders if she gets above you because she can't really do much to get around it or go through it. Try to chip away at her with uairs and other aerials occasionally when she's in the air, and play a spacing game when she's on or close to the ground.
Turnips aren't much of a hassle. Shield them (and immediately roll away if she's following with an aerial), jump over them, catch them if you're daring, but generally just use your mobility to get around them. Conversely, jolts kinda mess with peach, especially if she likes floating low the ground as they will bounce along and hit her. Jolts should either force her into her shield (where her reactions to your approaches are more predictable) or into the air (which can let you get under her and create havoc). Just watch out for her trying to run under them if you jolt closeish.
That's what I can think of atm, let me know if there's any specific issues you're having against peach.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
I've found that a sourspotted nair or fair before firefox takes away a huge chunk of fox's ability to get back on stage. It just sends them down.
As for uptilt vs falco's dair, I've gotten it before, and all it does is that you both get hit by the other's attack. So I think it's better to just get out of the way, since you get more damage from the nair, and it doesn't set you up in a position to combo.
As for uptilt vs falco's dair, I've gotten it before, and all it does is that you both get hit by the other's attack. So I think it's better to just get out of the way, since you get more damage from the nair, and it doesn't set you up in a position to combo.