Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Zano]

just go into training mode and learn the spacing by practicing on the cpu.

 

[ChocoNaner]

You play a more competitive game like Viva Pinata, duh :I

silly person ichu:

 

[C.J.]

if the opponent is open, at lower percents, it's usually the best option because it's a launcher, which then combos into many things, including Nair. If the percent is low enough Nair combos into many things as well, including Fair. Fair is excellent because it sets up a reset, as most opponents will airdodge after getting hit by a combo string. This is mostly universal, not just vs. snake.

Fair enough- can't believe I forgot to mention that stuff.

Yeah, ok I figured that's what Uair was for but for some reason I thought you guys meant it was safe; IE I could run up to a shielding snake and do it for free. You have to remember I'm coming from MK, so I'm used to having safe options.

It seemed when I camped and rising full hop faired Snake's shield he couldn't do much. I'm fitting into marth main mentality day by day. I'll report how I do after this weekend's tournament with any questions I come up with.

Get videos!

 

[Sylarius]

Hi, I'm new. I was just wondering what the best way to practice spacing and hitting with the tip of Marth's Sword was if I don't have anyone in my area to practice with.

Thanks in Advance!

It gets A LOT better over time, for now just learn the spacing and play people and it will definitely improve over time, I've been surprising myself lately by going for a tipped fsmash and getting them way more often than I did before. o.O

 

[Y.b.M.]

Yo, i have a quick question. how do you do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgXxGcolrk&list=FLGBtyNunGL3oPQafbCgAlYg&index=3&feature=plpp_video at :29 Seconds

I know its Snake but I figured that the Marth boards would know since I see Mr. R and Kadaj do it. I know its different from the down air Ledge cancel right...

 

[Kuro~]

Yo, i have a quick question. how do you do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgXxGcolrk&list=FLGBtyNunGL3oPQafbCgAlYg&index=3&feature=plpp_video at :29 Seconds

I know its Snake but I figured that the Marth boards would know since I see Mr. R and Kadaj do it. I know its different from the down air Ledge cancel right...

L/R+Down to PC will cause that from my experience. Might involve buffering the down. Not sure.

 

[Kuro~]

DP

Is there a thread with a list of marth's chaingrabs and percents they start/end at and whether it requires buffering or not, and what you can end it with?

 

[C.J.]

It's just really fast platform canceling. You can do it with C-stick down, or just hitting down, or holding down with an aerial, or hitting down with an AD. It's just super platform canceling. I believe most people find it to be easiest with the AD method though.

No, there isn't a list. Important ones are:
Fthrow-> fthrow-> fsmash/DB/nair/uair/fair (dair when at the ledge- many characters are only after one fthrow) on almost everyone. Some characters require you to stutterstep the fsmash and/or wait a moment before inputting it.

Fthrow x2-> dthrow x3-> fsmash/DB on Spacies.

 

[Kuro~]

Are the dthrows buffered? And do you dash attack cancel them or can u just buffer the turn around dash grab?

 

[Lord Chair]

wow people actually boost grab with marth?

 

[Kuro~]

wow people actually boost grab with marth?

It's a pit habit. I tend do it automatically. But ik it can effect the outcomes of chaingrabs for some characters so that's why i ask.

 

[C.J.]

Dthrows are buffered, yes.

Boost grabs for Marth are useless.

 

[Kuro~]

Dthrows are buffered, yes.

Boost grabs for Marth are useless.

Why?

10whys.

 

[Lord Chair]

my guess would be that the range doesnt warrant the extra startup time

 

[Kuro~]

Ahh i see. Makes sense.

 

[PEACE7]

boost Grabs with marth are deff not useless

 

[LooftWaffles]

Afaik, dacus' are only effective when the initial frames accelerate the character. Marths dash attack seems slower than his dash( too me) and doesnt offer an effective momentum boost. Only time i cancel Marth's da is when im standing right on top of the ledge. Boost pivot grab from there gives perfect gr-dair spacing on mk if he tries to nado back onstage

 

[C.J.]

^^^^
Boost grabs make you go forward based on the speed of the beginning of your dash attack. Marth's dash attack makes you slow down at the beginning; literally useless.

Just skid cancel shieldgrab or whatever it's called if you want to get a grab.

For CGs though just buffer dthrow though

 

[Sylarius]

What's the best playstyle for Marth? Proactive/Reactive, defensive/offensive? Should I be moving towards a Diddy with 2 bananas on SV, or camping the platform?
Explanations would be nice if possible.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Y.b.m to do that you have to use Down + Z/L/R if you don't have your springs out then Down + Z would be the easiest, and he's right it's not the same as using down on the C stick haha.

But yeah just make sure that when you hit Z/L/R that you are holding down when it happens otherwise you won't drop through and or it's cause you to just shield on the platform

 

[Kel]

Does someone know where I can find a rant from pierce about why Marth beats olimar?

Judo explained some stuff to me but I want to cross-reference it with other stuff from actual marth mains.

 

[Sylarius]

Ok, well... better question. How do I play a Marth/ZSS team when I'm the one using Marth? Are there any particular strategies?

 

[Kuro~]

Hey, marth matchup advice? Any really noteworthy vids?

How do you deal with desynched blizzards without having to risk putting yourself in a position to end terribly?

Recommended stages?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure any platform stage is a good option when dealing with ICs (the more, the better), just wait for them to screw up and leave an opening, then Nair and hope to shield stab Nana.
I don't really know, matchup is very bad for Marth, imo.

And no ZSS experience, Sylar. Sorry for that.

 

[PEACE7]

Hey, marth matchup advice? Any really noteworthy vids?

How do you deal with desynched blizzards without having to risk putting yourself in a position to end terribly?

Recommended stages?

Don't whiff nothing against them, this matchup is like the best if you want to get really good spacing with marth. Our nair i think trades or beats their blizzard wall you can also counter it, aim for the middle of it, I'm not sure if this is true but I think we get gr to upair on popo I get it most of the time, also against ice blocks you can either ps them or hit them with dtilt when your at a safe enough distance and if you hit them at the right spacing you will send them back. Don't ever let the icies be under you when your on top of a platform their upair is really ****ing broken. When their offstage trying to recover, runoff counter. If you land an upair when they are at 0% go for a nair this works on most of the cast as well. If you land with a fair and they shield it and you know your going to get grabbed might as well go for the up B IMO. If you get grabbed and they go for the fair spike sdi onto the stage. IMO a good stage against them would be castle siege, bf and yi. Also this mu is even or slightly in icies favor.

 

[Kuro~]

Why YI? Seems like the central platform would be bad...

 

[PEACE7]

That one is just personal preference I seem to do really good there, i should of said that my bad man

 

[infiniteV115]

Yo, i have a quick question. how do you do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgXxGcolrk&list=FLGBtyNunGL3oPQafbCgAlYg&index=3&feature=plpp_video at :29 Seconds

I know its Snake but I figured that the Marth boards would know since I see Mr. R and Kadaj do it. I know its different from the down air Ledge cancel right...

It was a platform cancel dropthrough, and he did it twice.

Hit shield + smash down at the same time. And when I say smash down, I mean press down at a speed which you would use for a smash attack as opposed to a tilt.
I find it's a lot easier when you set a non-shoulder button to shield.

 

[Pierce7d]

Does someone know where I can find a rant from pierce about why Marth beats olimar?

Judo explained some stuff to me but I want to cross-reference it with other stuff from actual marth mains.

fortunately for you, I read this thread on my phone when I'm out of the house, and waiting, and need to burn time.

In today's meta, Olimar revolves around repelling approaches and dealing poison damage while the opponent is distant. Marth is able to approach in such a way that Marth can bridge the distance very easily. Since Olimar's grab is frame 11, Marth can approach falling fair safely. Olimar's shield is subpar, so Dancing Blade is very effective.

Marth's combination of high mobilty on ground, high mobility in the air, and long range makes it so that Marth can consistently break Olimar's zoning, so long as the Marth player does not frequently fall into traps. Additionally, the reward Marth gets for landing a hit is typically massive, because can easily for Olimar to the ledge, where Marth can trap him quite effectively.

However, don't at all count Olimar out in the MU. If the Olimar has superior spacing, the Marth player will find it difficult to parry forward smash, grab, and purple toss. Olimar also has his own options of making reads via dash grab, which is a fantastic bursting move, and approaching Fair, which can hit a jump read very effective. UpB is transcendant, and does not have lag when done near the ground. This causes it to be an excellent way to parry approaches, especially jump-ins. Despite Olimar having a subpar roll, crossing up Dancing Blade is very rewarding. UpSmash kills Marth really early, and between grab and forward smash, Olimar has a powerful ledge trap on Marth as well. Whistle is quite effective on going through Marth's single hit attacks, and letting him get a very rewarding parry, making it very difficult to juggle Olimar. At the highest level of play, the MU is very slight favor Marth, but at high and mid level play, Marth wins solidly. At low level play, Olimar wins out.

Shield breaker is very important in the MU because it will trade with grab, but this will break the gra, since Olimar uses a remote grab via pikmin and never has grab armor. It will also help to break Olimar's shield, which obviously can kill him remarkably early.

It's also important to note that you can shield pikmin toss. Olimars often take advatage of extraneous motions to get rid of pikmin as ways to help make reads. Latched Pikmin can be blocked as well. Unless stuck with a white pikmin, or several pikmin, it's not efficient to hit off every pikmin, as you will get stuck with more in the cooldown of your move, if not punished entirely. Pay attention the the HP of important pikmin, especially purples, which have 15 HP. Obviously, paying attention to the line-up is also important.

For more detailed information, I recommend studying Olimar.

 

[Pierce7d]

that being said, I've finshed my omelet, and everyone else at the table is also done with dinner, so we're leaving iHop now, and further questions will have to wait until I'm trying to catch tomorrow's bus on the way to work.

 

[Nicholas1024]

In general, what are Marth's followups after a throw? I can get grabs fairly frequently, but I don't know what options the opponent has off of F-throw/D-throw, and what beats each option.

On a related note, what can Marth get from a grab release on Ness/Lucas/Wario (and anyone else he might have those tricks on)?

 

[Shaya]

Nair/bair/uair.

And on wario he can get every single move he has (except regrab). Ness/Lucas out of air release get hit with a lot of things. Ground release is everything grounded except usmash/dash attack/fsmash.

 

[Player-3]

always charge shieldbreaker after fthrow

 

[Kel]

fortunately for you, I read this thread on my phone when I'm out of the house, and waiting, and need to burn time.

In today's meta, Olimar revolves around repelling approaches and dealing poison damage while the opponent is distant. Marth is able to approach in such a way that Marth can bridge the distance very easily. Since Olimar's grab is frame 11, Marth can approach falling fair safely. Olimar's shield is subpar, so Dancing Blade is very effective.

Marth's combination of high mobilty on ground, high mobility in the air, and long range makes it so that Marth can consistently break Olimar's zoning, so long as the Marth player does not frequently fall into traps. Additionally, the reward Marth gets for landing a hit is typically massive, because can easily for Olimar to the ledge, where Marth can trap him quite effectively.

However, don't at all count Olimar out in the MU. If the Olimar has superior spacing, the Marth player will find it difficult to parry forward smash, grab, and purple toss. Olimar also has his own options of making reads via dash grab, which is a fantastic bursting move, and approaching Fair, which can hit a jump read very effective. UpB is transcendant, and does not have lag when done near the ground. This causes it to be an excellent way to parry approaches, especially jump-ins. Despite Olimar having a subpar roll, crossing up Dancing Blade is very rewarding. UpSmash kills Marth really early, and between grab and forward smash, Olimar has a powerful ledge trap on Marth as well. Whistle is quite effective on going through Marth's single hit attacks, and letting him get a very rewarding parry, making it very difficult to juggle Olimar. At the highest level of play, the MU is very slight favor Marth, but at high and mid level play, Marth wins solidly. At low level play, Olimar wins out.

Shield breaker is very important in the MU because it will trade with grab, but this will break the gra, since Olimar uses a remote grab via pikmin and never has grab armor. It will also help to break Olimar's shield, which obviously can kill him remarkably early.

It's also important to note that you can shield pikmin toss. Olimars often take advatage of extraneous motions to get rid of pikmin as ways to help make reads. Latched Pikmin can be blocked as well. Unless stuck with a white pikmin, or several pikmin, it's not efficient to hit off every pikmin, as you will get stuck with more in the cooldown of your move, if not punished entirely. Pay attention the the HP of important pikmin, especially purples, which have 15 HP. Obviously, paying attention to the line-up is also important.

For more detailed information, I recommend studying Olimar.

Awesome, thanks pierce.

I know most of the Olimar stuff from studying him against MK. The best thing that judo taught me was that if Marth calls Olimar's upsmash, a fair will beat it because once you hit a pikmin the hitbox disappears, but he is still in lag.

I'm more curious about approaching mix ups. From the videos I've watched recently (noteably Mr. R vs the Japanese), this MU seems too messy to be in Marth's favor. It seems that Marth is always taking chip damage in order to gamble for a hit with fair. Even after the hit, you can say that marth will deal a lot of damage to the olimar, but good olimars these days know how to recover and use whistle very, very well; this leads me to believe that Marth has to gamble and take chip damage for a potential hit just to lose his ground once Olimar whistles/ recovers.

If I FF fair on an olimar's shield what are the mix ups and options? Should I jab assuming that it will beat grab/ usmash? Should I spot dodge/ roll away? Should I over B and hope it pokes/ he doesn't SDI it?

This all seems very messy and risky to be considered good practice. I'm very curious for other people's insight.

Thanks guys

 

[Pierce7d]

once you successfully land a ff aerial on Olimar's shield, you have frame advantage. However, it is not so much frame advantage that a guarenteed hit is ensured in the follow-up, and this is where reading comes into play.

Let's assume you land an imperfect FFFair on Olimar's shield. It is inside and not tippered, and results in being -7 on block.

If olimar buffers a usmash while in hit lag, it will and you block, you will get a perfect powershield. All other actions result in Marth getting hit.

If you block, and Olimar grabs, you will be grabbed, of course. However, do note that Olimar's grab is frame 11. If you perform buffered jab, then the jab and the grab will connect at the same time. However, since Olimar does not have any grab armor, he will lose the exchange.

In theory, Dancing Blade, which also hits on frame 4, should work exactly the same. However, I personally have never picked this option. Jab is less perishable if Olimar buffers a cross-up roll, and if you DO land a perfect Fair, Dancing Blade will still trade with Usmash, since it's transcendant, where as jab might beat it altogether.

In short, Olimar's Usmash out of shield is exactly the same frame as Marth's fastest option if Marth lands a perfect aerial, and otherwise will beat his offensive options if spaced inside. The obvious exception is Dolphin Slash, although this will lose if Olimar picks any defensive option. So what I traditionally do is Fair and make it seem unsafe, causing the Olimar to try and grab me, and read their option. If they continue to get hit by this, and do not Usmash OOS, then I continue to use this option. When the Olimar starts Usmashing, I take more effort to time Fairs, and hold block, or UpB. If the Olimar picks dodges, I adapt and react accordingly, as Olimars rolls are terrible, and if you are expecting it, you can Fair, block, and punish spotdododge on reaction with Usmash OOS yourself.

Of course, this is all for unspaced fairs.

 

[Pierce7d]

if you prefer not to play the footsies with Olimar, you can always space your aerials. Forward Smash makes this diffcult because it can still clip Marth's feet, and parry his approach altogether. Of course, airdodging is not recommended, but due to the lack of commitment a forward smash requires and the duration of the hitbox while the pikman is airborne, Olimar should never use this attack in a manner where it can be punished by an airborne opponent, unless their opponent cut through it.

Of course, it isn't safe on block unless spaced well, and Marth's ground speed allows him to gain ground well. Blocking this move on the ground may lead to a punish, or put Marth is range for an offensive attempt. Of course, grounded approaches must be done carefully because of Olimar's grab. Fortunately for Marth, due to the slowness of the grab, and it's cooldown lag, Marth has the advantage of spacing. His mobility allows him to outmanuver Olimar's approach parry attempts, and simply moving requires even less commitment than Olimar's grab and forward smash. This small advantage in spacing, coupled with the powerful mid range zoning Olimar struggles to defend against, is what grants Marth a slight advantage in this MU.

I would not really use Ramin as an example of how to fight Olimar. He is a player whose talents exceed my own, but his knowledge of the match-up is lacking, and he does not know how to deal with purple pikmin correctly. Additionally, remember that the advantage is not massive at the peak of gameplay, and the more skilled player can be expected to win. That was the Japanese Olimars.

 

[Kuro~]

I thought untippered fair was -3 on shield?

Edit: OH nvm. Just realized. The 4 frames of landing lag when u FF...

So that'd make it -7...

Right?

 

[Kel]

So I actually don't want to tipper my fairs?

Is it ever a good time to Dtilt? Olimar has bad rolls and has that 10 frame long grab, so with mk i would always dtilt, does this work with Marth as well?

Thanks for the help guys. I'm mostly worried about Olimar's ground mix ups of pivot grab and fsmash.

 

[C.J.]

Frame data thread says that landing FF, non-tippered, fair on shield is -4 (assuming done perfectly).

Tippered fair is -8.

All according to frame data thread.

 

[Kel]

My question remains.