Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[metroid1117]

I always fail to see how final destination is a decent stage for Ike. No platforms makes many of his approaches really predictable, and the size+no platforms easily lets him get outcamped. I really can't find too many redeeming qualities of the stage for Ike. Is it really just me?

I don't think it's good either; it's easily his worst neutral stage. The edges can trap him and it's too wide to deal with projectile spammers.

 

[gsninja]

No, it's not just you. Final Destination kinda ruins Ike because, like you said, he gets outcamped, and also for the fact that characters with projectiles can very easily keep him away due to the lack of platforms.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I like FD. It's perfect for spacing Fairs. The opponent can't use platforms to get around you.

I take most non-projectile users here. And the EB boys. And Zelda.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Did anyone see ryko fight at CoT4? I think he was up against anther in one of the last matches and he got 2 stocked lol.

That was pretty much all i caught of the tournament except a few money matches which was of anther too I think.

 

[Wyvern-x]

I saw Ryko fight Ally. He took Ally down to 1 stock both matches. Other than that I didnt Ryko fight any other matches.

 

[tonyrulz92]

Sorry if this has already been asked but, I cant seem to run off the stage and do a down air without fastfalling. Even if i do it with the c-stick. Running doing it the normal way, or running off with the c-stick still leads to a fastfall. Any tips for me to get it to work?

 

[Ussi]

either tilt stick or hold diagonal downwards on the control stick

 

[Alukard]

i went to cot4 ... i was playing some friendlies ... i didn't do half bad ... i didn't enter tho i haven't played brawl in sooo long didn't feel like i could even get top 10 lol

 

[YagamiLight]

So I basically got the debug mode hack to see everything frame by frame.

My first thing was to check my theory of the Back Throw being able to chaingrab. Long story short:

Yes, a Back Throw WILL lead to another Back Throw on Bowser. This continues, using the stale move decay system, until around 50% I believe but I'll recheck in the morning. The facts are simple:

The Back Throw gives a 18 frame advantage (this advantage increases as time goes on, becoming stuff like 20 and 21).

Ike's Dash Grab hits on frame 12.

The distance between the two is small enough that Ike can initiate a dash, run for 5-6 frames, Dashgrab and be able to grab Bowser due to his poor landing animation and size.

That's it, more or less.

 

[Ussi]

brawl is getting ********.... Another chain grab?!? That's just Blah!!.. What an I saying though ~_~ one of my characters lives to chain grab

 

[•Col•]

So I basically got the debug mode hack to see everything frame by frame.

My first thing was to check my theory of the Back Throw being able to chaingrab. Long story short:

Yes, a Back Throw WILL lead to another Back Throw on Bowser. This continues, using the stale move decay system, until around 50% I believe but I'll recheck in the morning. The facts are simple:

The Back Throw gives a 18 frame advantage (this advantage increases as time goes on, becoming stuff like 20 and 21).

Ike's Dash Grab hits on frame 12.

The distance between the two is small enough that Ike can initiate a dash, run for 5-6 frames, Dashgrab and be able to grab Bowser due to his poor landing animation and size.

That's it, more or less.

o_o ..... Cool! I still want confirmation from Kirk or something though. ;-;

Does this work on any other characters? It looks like it MIGHT work on Charizard...

 

[YagamiLight]

o_o ..... Cool! I still want confirmation from Kirk or something though. ;-;

Does this work on any other characters? It looks like it MIGHT work on Charizard...

Yeah, it'd be nice if Kirk could confirm it but the facts really are all there. Assuming the first turn Ike can do anything to be Fr. 1, Bowser can do something on frame 19. That leaves, essentially, 6 frames to dash and 12 to initiate the grab, since he becomes invincible on frame 1 (Whirling Fortress or whatnot).

I'm not really sure how long it goes on for, it'll take some testing with stocks and stale moves but I'm pretty sure it goes to a high percent and ends with a Dash Attack.

The other heavies seem to be no goes. Ganondorf is just out of reach, as is Donkey Kong. Charizard appears to be as well, though I'll test him out, just for you.

If you know any method of increasing Ike's grab range, I'm all ears.

I'll make a topic about this later. I think I'll name it the Crimean Cross because that sounds pretty cool .

 

[metroid1117]

If you know any method of increasing Ike's grab range, I'm all ears.

Frame perfect dance-dance to pivot grab?

Assuming you're facing to the left and you use BThrow on Bowser so then you face right: run left (turn around) -> run right + pivot grab. REALLY not sure if it'll work though.

 

[Kirk]

Looks fun.

*is doing testing as I type*

@metroid: no, it won't work because when you try to turn around, you will go into his turnaround animation, which is really slow. The fastest possible means of what you speak of is to do a pivot grab out of a foxtrot. I'll get more specific data when I'm done testing. In short though, it's much slower than running and grabbing.

 

[•Col•]

I'll make a topic about this later. I think I'll name it the Crimean Cross because that sounds pretty cool .

Or, uh... You know... We could just call it Ike's bthrow chaingrab... <_<


Anyway, there are a bunch of characters that land JUST outside of Ike's reach. It's not guaranteed, but you could probably Bthrow chaingrab someone once or twice, since likely the first thing they'll do after they see you running at them is shield. And if they try to spotdode, you can run past them and do a reverse pivot grab. xD

EDIT: I've been screwing aroun dwith it, and it looks like it might work on Ness too... But not Lucas. xD

And the dash attack ending wont work, I believe. Whenever I tried it on Bowser in training mode, he could shield before it hit everytime

 

[YagamiLight]

Or, uh... You know... We could just call it Ike's bthrow chaingrab... <_<


Anyway, there are a bunch of characters that land JUST outside of Ike's reach. It's not guaranteed, but you could probably Bthrow chaingrab someone once or twice, since likely the first thing they'll do after they see you running at them is shield. And if they try to spotdode, you can run past them and do a reverse pivot grab. xD

Or we could call it the Crimean Cross. Who else gives their chaingrabs cool names?

Anyways you get one (1) regrab on Charizard from a Bthrow at 0%. Use it wisely.

 

[•Col•]

Ack. I edited my last post right before you replied. D:

Go back and read.

 

[YagamiLight]

Well, as for your Ness bit, there are three criteria each character must meet in order to be chaingrabbed:

1) Their frame disadvantage is large enough for Ike to reach them in time for a dash grab.

2) They may not be able to jump out midway through the throw stun.

3) They are large enough to be hit with a dashgrab.

Ness can jump out near the end, sadly.

Anyways, Bowser can shield on frame 19 after the first throw. However, as time goes on, he has a bigger disadvantage. At say, 40% he shields on frame 20 or 21, can't remember. The dash attack hits on frame 18.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you know any method of increasing Ike's grab range, I'm all ears.

Saw this in the Snake boards:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216460

Would this help us any?

Nope

Another look is needed methinks.

Oh, and does this work on Snake? Or D3? Both of them are heavy....

 

[Kirk]

This is too funny...

At some percent(I'll just say 60%), if Bowser does nothing after being B-thrown, Ike's grab misses. If he shields as soon as he is able, Ike can grab him. Silly frame perfect-ness...

This alone would make this NOT a chaingrab at this percent(since it depends on the action of the throwee, regardless if your inputs are perfect).

Example:

Counting frames after the hitstun from the Bthrow ends, Ike has 12 frames before he can act and Bowser has 34 frames before he can act.

For the distance Bowser is thrown, a running shield grab is the most desirable(it comes out faster and has more range than the Dash grab).

So, you need running frames, plus 3 frames of shielding, plus 7 frames for grabbing. You can't perform a standing grab until 3 frames of shield have passed...otherwise you will dash grab instead.

Also keep in mind, Bowser's fastest action is spotdodging...which his first invincibility frame comes out on frame 3, which makes his first invulnerable frame to be on frame 37(34 frames of lag, 2 frames of spotdodge startup, invincible the next frame).

Also keep in mind, these are assuming FRAME PERFECT inputs for BOTH characters.

Test 1:

13 frames of running were used. So Ike's total frames are 12 + 13 + 3 + 7. This comes out to 35 frames...meaning Ike's grab hitbox comes out on frame 35.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: NOT Grabbed!
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed!

Test 2:

14 Frames of running instead of 13. Total frames for Ike are 36.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)

If you look closely, you may notice the spotdodge situation. "He's not invincible until frame 37, yet Ike grabs on frame 36! What gives!?" Simple: Bowser moves his massive bulk out of your range with his spotdodge animation. Instead of his standing animation(his head sticking out for you to grab), the animation of the spotdodge has him moving his hurtbox out of your grab range. This is also the reason for various Grabbed/Not Grabbed situations(i.e. Standing/Shielding/Jumping has Bowser's head out front, while his landing lag from doing nothing[crouched down to the ground], spot dodge, and roll dodge animations all have his hurtbox shifted elsewhere).

Another note, at lower percents it is better to dash grab instead of a running shield grab. Reasoning: Ike cannot cancel his run into a shield until frame 11. At lower percents(for this example, 0% - Bowser can act after 30 frames), Ike can run 6 frames then do a dash grab(12 frames), grabbing Bowser on frame 18(plus 12 frames from the lag from Bthrow). If you did a running shield grab, it would be 10 frames for running, 3 for shielding, and 7 for the grab...20 frames(. You're too sloooowwww!

Yeah...how's that? Confusing enough for everyone? xD

EDIT:

Another look is needed methinks.

Oh, and does this work on Snake? Or D3? Both of them are heavy....

Boost grab gives NO range bonus for Ike. So sorry.

Snake and D3 aren't fat enough for this to work. Also, so sorry.

EDIT2: I don't see this working on Zard. How did you test Yagami?

 

[Ussi]

If Bowser spot dodges, can Ike react first?

 

[YagamiLight]

This is too funny...

At some percent(I'll just say 60%), if Bowser does nothing after being B-thrown, Ike's grab misses. If he shields as soon as he is able, Ike can grab him. Silly frame perfect-ness...

This alone would make this NOT a chaingrab at this percent(since it depends on the action of the throwee, regardless if your inputs are perfect).

Example:

Counting frames after the hitstun from the Bthrow ends, Ike has 12 frames before he can act and Bowser has 34 frames before he can act.

For the distance Bowser is thrown, a running shield grab is the most desirable(it comes out faster and has more range than the Dash grab).

So, you need running frames, plus 3 frames of shielding, plus 7 frames for grabbing. You can't perform a standing grab until 3 frames of shield have passed...otherwise you will dash grab instead.

Also keep in mind, Bowser's fastest action is spotdodging...which his first invincibility frame comes out on frame 3, which makes his first invulnerable frame to be on frame 37(34 frames of lag, 2 frames of spotdodge startup, invincible the next frame).

Also keep in mind, these are assuming FRAME PERFECT inputs for BOTH characters.

Test 1:

13 frames of running were used. So Ike's total frames are 12 + 13 + 3 + 7. This comes out to 35 frames...meaning Ike's grab hitbox comes out on frame 35.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: NOT Grabbed!
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed!

Test 2:

14 Frames of running instead of 13. Total frames for Ike are 36.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)

If you look closely, you may notice the spotdodge situation. "He's not invincible until frame 37, yet Ike grabs on frame 36! What gives!?" Simple: Bowser moves his massive bulk out of your range with his spotdodge animation. Instead of his standing animation(his head sticking out for you to grab), the animation of the spotdodge has him moving his hurtbox out of your grab range. This is also the reason for various Grabbed/Not Grabbed situations(i.e. Standing/Shielding/Jumping has Bowser's head out front, while his landing lag from doing nothing[crouched down to the ground], spot dodge, and roll dodge animations all have his hurtbox shifted elsewhere).

Another note, at lower percents it is better to dash grab instead of a running shield grab. Reasoning: Ike cannot cancel his run into a shield until frame 11. At lower percents(for this example, 0% - Bowser can act after 30 frames), Ike can run 6 frames then do a dash grab(12 frames), grabbing Bowser on frame 18(plus 12 frames from the lag from Bthrow). If you did a running shield grab, it would be 10 frames for running, 3 for shielding, and 7 for the grab...20 frames(. You're too sloooowwww!

Yeah...how's that? Confusing enough for everyone? xD

EDIT:



Boost grab gives NO range bonus for Ike. So sorry.

Snake and D3 aren't fat enough for this to work. Also, so sorry.

EDIT2: I don't see this working on Zard. How did you test Yagami?

Whoah, huge post.

First off, I retested it on Zard and it doesn't seem to work anymore. I probably made an error while testing it, my apologies.

Secondly, isn't Bowser's best ground option to use Whirling Fortress as it has frame 1 invincibility?

And lastly, since I am a tiny bit confused by your post, are you confirming that the CG works, at least until the percent where Bowser can stand still to avoid it?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

My post is being ignored....

 

[YagamiLight]

My post is being ignored....

Kirk edited a response into the last part of his post.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh, in that case I'm blind.

Probably with anger due to the fact my computer (AKA, piece of crap computer that keeps needing to have it's newer harddrive whipped every 2 month because it glitches) can't load GameFAQs. Keeps getting the beachball of death. (Beachball = Mac thing)

I blame the parent controls as they were loaded up shortly before the first crash, but parents don't believe me.......

But dang, I wish boost grabbing worked with Ike. It's not like Falco and Snake needed more range on their grabs. >_> What next, it works with MK?

 

[_Sync_]

Oh, in that case I'm blind.

Probably with anger due to the fact my computer (AKA, piece of crap computer that keeps needing to have it's newer harddrive whipped every 2 month because it glitches) can't load GameFAQs. Keeps getting the beachball of death. (Beachball = Mac thing)

I blame the parent controls as they were loaded up shortly before the first crash, but parents don't believe me.......

But dang, I wish boost grabbing worked with Ike. It's not like Falco and Snake needed more range on their grabs. >_> What next, it works with MK?

That would be a travesty to the entire game IMO.

@NFreak
I can possibly offer hardware support if your comp is as bad as you say it is, just give me a pm.

 

[YagamiLight]

Oh, in that case I'm blind.

Probably with anger due to the fact my computer (AKA, piece of crap computer that keeps needing to have it's newer harddrive whipped every 2 month because it glitches) can't load GameFAQs. Keeps getting the beachball of death. (Beachball = Mac thing)

I blame the parent controls as they were loaded up shortly before the first crash, but parents don't believe me.......

But dang, I wish boost grabbing worked with Ike. It's not like Falco and Snake needed more range on their grabs. >_> What next, it works with MK?

Well, Falco's grab range and Snake's grab range both aren't that good, near Ike's IIRC. It's just that if anyone needs help in the game, it's NOT Snake and Falco.

Anyways, I have had such terrible experiences with Apple products that I've sworn myself off them forever. No iPhones, iPods, Macs, anything. They seem really nice and pleasant and then they break after like 3 months.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, the thing is, this hard drive isn't an Apple Hard drive. It didn't having this problem until I put in a 3rd party hard drive. It just happened to be at the same time as the parent controls (which I hope is the problem, because I hate the stupid parent controls)

Like, in my family, not extended: 3 Lap tops, 1 Desktop, 2 Ipod Shuffles, 4 Ipod Nanos, 1 first generation Ipod, 1 second generation Ipod, and the only one of them broken is my laptop. And thats after several years of abuse, including dropping it, and tripping with it into a wall.

The one PC we had: Virus'd within 1 month while running anti-virus every weekend. >_>


As for the hardware support: I'm passing on that. Once this thing breaks enough times, my parents will have to break down and replace something in it. Which means more new stuff, and hopefully them taking of parent controls.

 

[Kirk]

Whoah, huge post.

First off, I retested it on Zard and it doesn't seem to work anymore. I probably made an error while testing it, my apologies.

Secondly, isn't Bowser's best ground option to use Whirling Fortress as it has frame 1 invincibility?

And lastly, since I am a tiny bit confused by your post, are you confirming that the CG works, at least until the percent where Bowser can stand still to avoid it?

You're right. I forgot to take into account that Bowser has a frame 1 invincibility move. Regardless, my previous post's point was to show it's situational when grabbing can work(down to the frame).

BUT, I can say the chaingrab does work up until 42%(I.E. If you Back throw Bowser when he is at 42%, you can still grab him again). Just remember this is FRAME PERFECT, which is incredibly hard to do realistically...and since all Bowser has to do is basically spam Whirling Fortress to get out, it makes it that much more difficult. Ike grabs Bowser on frame 33(after Bthrow hitlag), when Bowser can act on frame 34. After that, Bowser is too far away to grab...but ONLY if he does whirling fortress. My examples in the previous post show that it can work upwards of 60% if the correct action is taken.

tl;dr - Ike gots chaingrab on Boozer 'til 42% yo. Yayuuhhzzzzz.

 

[metroid1117]

Is D3 susceptible to this as well? Or is it just Bowser because of his landing animation?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

he said that in an earlier post. Apparently bowser is the only one heavy enough for this to work. Thats still one unconditional chain grab that we can't run out of room on though.

 

[YagamiLight]

Is D3 susceptible to this as well? Or is it just Bowser because of his landing animation?

Well, Ike grabs Bowser's very prominent face, which is why this works. Dedede'd face is more inward, so he's not large enough to grab.

he said that in an earlier post. Apparently bowser is the only one heavy enough for this to work. Thats still one unconditional chain grab that we can't run out of room on though.

Yeah, that's the best part. Unless you are on a platform or you screw up, you're guaranteed 45+11 damage at the very least, more if you get a pummel in.

Congratulations Ike boards, we've found a 60% combo on a mid tier character. Take THAT, Ike metagame haters.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you don't realize this is actually bad news yagami. The more we advance Ike the lower he goes in the tier list! If we don't control our selfs Cfalcon will go above us. We just need to focus on how to camp better.

 

[Kirk]

In case anyone cares:

--Eruption has 5 frames of Super Armor - frames 24-29(hits on 30).

--Quick Draw charges to full on frame 87(Ping!). Total charge time is ~70 frames.

--Aether has 20 frames of Super Armor - frames 19-38(hits on 18).

--Counter lasts for 59 frames total. The activation window is from frames 11-33(23 frames). Ike is invincible from frames 1-6 after the counter activation(does not include the 16 frames of hitlag after being attacked). The retaliation strike hits on frame 4 after counter activation.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

ikes worst matchup character wise?

and his worst stage?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol why the only other Ike you should be playing is niddo and you don't need counter picks for him =P

Anyways its oli and probably jungle japes.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

There is a better Ike player here that has been hiding out, we go back and forth.

for some reason i knew it would be oli lol i dont like olimar, whats another character?

 

[YagamiLight]

you don't realize this is actually bad news yagami. The more we advance Ike the lower he goes in the tier list! If we don't control our selfs Cfalcon will go above us. We just need to focus on how to camp better.

Indeed, we should probably stop doing anything

ikes worst matchup character wise?

and his worst stage?

Some basic backstory on Ike's match-ups. It used to be that the top 3 bad match-ups were King Dedede, Falco and Captain Olimar all at 70-30 or so. Over the course of a few months, Dedede has fallen in severity , but not by much. Falco you can now tech the chainspike against not to mention that if Falco gets grabbed near the ledge or on a platform it's a free Fair to the face. Olimar is still a major disadvantage (though by no means are Falco and King Dedede not hard matches) due to the fact that he a) Forces an approach and b) Blocks approaches.

Ike's worst stage is Jungle Japes and possibly Frigate Orpheon. Thankfully, both of these are worse for Olimar than they are for Ike. Always ban JJ against a Falco though, unless you like being *****.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

There is a better Ike player here that has been hiding out, we go back and forth.

for some reason i knew it would be oli lol i dont like olimar, whats another character?

hmm... I forgot but are you from dallas? because I just remembered bored started going to tourneys in person now.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

thanks Yagami

@Arturito-Naw i live in San antonio