Apex 2012 | CHECK OP FOR EVENT BRACKETS/POOLS | EVO 2012 QUALIFIER!

[Merkuri]

itll be hard dude but just try your best, go for the experience not for the prize $$

Well for me(and I imagine a lot of people) the experience is the tourney matches. Realistically I'm not good enough to win any prize money at this.

You can go to EVO and go 0-2 and be out of the tourney completely...

To seriously answer the question, its looking like pools is going to be at least 5-6 people first round anyway so its not a big deal.



Last I checked, Merk was not a dude...

Well you really can't compare the FGC to the smash community. The reason why this franchise still has a strong tourney scene is because we have round robin pools, and not straight to bracket. The game would be dead long ago if pools didn't offer the weaker players a lot of games, so saying we get a game more than evo doesn't mean much.

And are pools really going be 5-6 people now, or is that just speculation?

 

[GDX]

I think its the other way around. The only reason we've been able to do round robin so long is because our attendance isn't as high as theirs. I think players of any game would prefer round robin for more games to knock off rust/economical/whatever other reason, but they also recognize with their attendance its impossible

 

[Keitaro]

And are pools really going be 5-6 people now, or is that just speculation?

Overall its just a speculation made by calculations of how many entrants there are so far.

If entrants are exactly 256 for an event it would be pools of 4 people. Anything past that would have at least 1 pool of 5 people for first round pools. If there are exactly 320 entrants for an event there would be 5 people for first round pools. If brawl somehow reaches 384 entrants each pool would have 6 people for first round.

This is all speculation as the way pools works can be subject to change but we're most likely sticking with this imo.

 

[PB&J]

Do you know what really grinds my gears?

 

[hunger!]

Do you know what really grinds my gears?

Uncrustables.


ba dum tish

 

[DynamicDuo]

Just thought I'd update the following ppl on their gear.

Sinji
Robfox

Checkout your tees http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309158&page=5

Tekkie: Have you decide on what you want yet?

 

[Merkuri]

I think its the other way around. The only reason we've been able to do round robin so long is because our attendance isn't as high as theirs. I think players of any game would prefer round robin for more games to knock off rust/economical/whatever other reason, but they also recognize with their attendance its impossible

Mk9 has roughly the attendance that Brawl has now. They don't have a round robin pools because it isn't important to their community. So it's not an attendance issue now, even if that was the original reason.

Overall its just a speculation made by calculations of how many entrants there are so far.

If entrants are exactly 256 for an event it would be pools of 4 people. Anything past that would have at least 1 pool of 5 people for first round pools. If there are exactly 320 entrants for an event there would be 5 people for first round pools. If brawl somehow reaches 384 entrants each pool would have 6 people for first round.

This is all speculation as the way pools works can be subject to change but we're most likely sticking with this imo.

Well that would mean that melee is likely to be stuck at 4 man pools and I think that's just a shame. Why would an international tourney have 4 man pools? People travel form half way across the world for possibly only 3 matches? Is saving time really that much more important than the experience of the players?

 

[Luigi player]

The exp of the players is important but if you cant finish the tourney in time that sucks even more.

 

[Merkuri]

The exp of the players is important but if you cant finish the tourney in time that sucks even more.

True, but why isn't 6 man pools doable. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why this tourney is so different from Genesis2 or Pound 5 which had big pools and still finished on time. Genesis2 had 8 man pools and 3 rounds of pool and it still finished on time, it just seems like Strife is making a gross miscalculation as to how much time is needed to run things efficiently.



Edit: Also are you Luigi player the Brawl Diddy Kong main? Is this you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7qNxMdBHfc

 

[Alex Strife]

This is a simple answer.


All those events had 3 days.

We are doing it in one day ( Friday Melee | Sat Brawl ) and have a lot more in terms of production and such ( like Sunday being Top 8 for every game, awards etc )

4 Man pools are faster, easier to manage, and can be done easily.

 

[unknown522]

registered thanks to Riddlebox

 

[Hylian]

4 Man pools are faster, easier to manage, and can be done easily.

4 man pools are pointless, don't seed anything, and a complete waste of everyones time. If you want to save time, do a bracket. If you want to seed using pools, have more seeds(4+ being the ideal number getting out).

The only reason I can see you logically doing 4 man pools is to make the tournament easier on yourselves. The community doesn't want 4 man pools obviously, if you wanted to run it MUCH faster you could just do a bracket, if you wanted good seeding you would have larger pools.

What do you want? It's probably not being accomplished with 4 man pools.

Edit: I'm going regardless I'm just saying people have legitimate concerns with 4 man pools and these are the reasons why.

 

[unknown522]

I agree with hylian

 

[Merkuri]

This is a simple answer.


All those events had 3 days.

We are doing it in one day ( Friday Melee | Sat Brawl ) and have a lot more in terms of production and such ( like Sunday being Top 8 for every game, awards etc )

4 Man pools are faster, easier to manage, and can be done easily.

Feh, I see your point there in terms of more in production, at this point you don't even know how large the FGC tournies are going to be. But I guess I fell kinda salty that I ave to play less smash just because FGC tournies are at this event, I would have rather not have them at all so we can just focus on smash but I understand entirely the value of having them at the event.

4 man pools are pointless, don't seed anything, and a complete waste of everyones time. If you want to save time, do a bracket. If you want to seed using pools, have more seeds(4+ being the ideal number getting out).

The only reason I can see you logically doing 4 man pools is to make the tournament easier on yourselves. The community doesn't want 4 man pools obviously, if you wanted to run it MUCH faster you could just do a bracket, if you wanted good seeding you would have larger pools.

What do you want? It's probably not being accomplished with 4 man pools.

I am not sure what you're getting at. The community does not want 4 man pools, but we'd hate no pools even more. And pools isn't just for seeding, it's also that people can get more games in than they would in just a straight bracket.

I agree with you in that the way they are doing it seems like they are just trying to make things easier on themselves though.

 

[GimR]

I think the smash community is a tad spoiled. We're basically the only community that does round robin pools and we're also the only community that seeds down to the wire(4th, 5th, and 6th seeds). I've been to 2 Sf4 majors so far and wow, it takes the like 40 minutes to seed 274 people. The main thing they focus on is getting top players from same regions out of each other's pools. If you aren't making top 3 or 4 consistently at your locals you don't complain about getting a bad seed.

I think 4 people pools is a way to compromise. You still get round robin pools, but the tournament also runs a lot faster.

 

[Roller]

4 man pools are pointless, don't seed anything, and a complete waste of everyones time. If you want to save time, do a bracket. If you want to seed using pools, have more seeds(4+ being the ideal number getting out).

The only reason I can see you logically doing 4 man pools is to make the tournament easier on yourselves. The community doesn't want 4 man pools obviously, if you wanted to run it MUCH faster you could just do a bracket, if you wanted good seeding you would have larger pools.

What do you want? It's probably not being accomplished with 4 man pools.

Edit: I'm going regardless I'm just saying people have legitimate concerns with 4 man pools and these are the reasons why.

I stand by everything Hylian just said.

 

[Hylian]

I think the smash community is a tad spoiled. We're basically the only community that does round robin pools and we're also the only community that seeds down to the wire(4th, 5th, and 6th seeds). I've been to 2 Sf4 majors so far and wow, it takes the like 40 minutes to seed 274 people. The main thing they focus on is getting top players from same regions out of each other's pools. If you aren't making top 3 or 4 consistently at your locals you don't complain about getting a bad seed.

I think 4 people pools is a way to compromise. You still get round robin pools, but the tournament also runs a lot faster.

This is the first thing anyone's said that makes sense regarding pools.

From a logical standpoint 4 man pools are still a waste of time. Yeah smashers are spoiled, I would just rather have a straight bracket than 4 man pools because it actually makes sense. No one is giving off the attitude you are though they are acting like 4 man pools are "better" when they are worse in almost every comprehensible way.

If you have the ability to finish your tournament on time with 4+ people getting out of pools(less pools more people in each) then it should be done that way. If you have very little time you should go straight bracket. Smaller pools like this should be a very rare thing at the very least but what gimr said makes sense.

 

[Alex Strife]

production has nothing to do with the FGC its for our content. I think I said this before but we are doing interviews and bracket theory type stuff while there is down time. This will help to make our event seem more legitimate.

4 man pools was a compromise of the entire staff's views. So ya.

 

[Hylian]

production has nothing to do with the FGC its for our content. I think I said this before but we are doing interviews and bracket theory type stuff while there is down time. This will help to make our event seem more legitimate.

4 man pools was a compromise of the entire staff's views. So ya.

That's a fair enough answer.

 

[Merkuri]

production has nothing to do with the FGC its for our content. I think I said this before but we are doing interviews and bracket theory type stuff while there is down time. This will help to make our event seem more legitimate.

4 man pools was a compromise of the entire staff's views. So ya.

Don't you think the attendees would much rather larger pools than interviews and bracket theory type stuff? Also interviews and bracket theory type stuff don't require setups, so can't that be done at the same times as pools instead of during the down time?

 

[Alex Strife]

Going back into why we are doing that.

It would take a lot of time to literally grab someone people for 15-30 mins.

Also, I do not know if you read this or not , but friendlies will be provided the entire weekend.


With 64 pools of 4-5 people most moderate level players make it out and still play a lot of matches.


I understand what you are saying but this has been brought up. I do not think I need to explain this further when it has been explained every time someone has asked me.

 

[PB&J]

Im just want to know what round 2 pools would look like,they have to be death pools if only top 2 are getting out. It doesnt really bother me because i know strife's mind is made up so im aiming for first seed both rounds so everyone look out or you can just take me lightly and lose.its on you

 

[t3h Icy]

I'm pretty sure Merkuri and Strife are related.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wish i was here for this at the time.

Overall its just a speculation made by calculations of how many entrants there are so far.

If entrants are exactly 256 for an event it would be pools of 4 people. Anything past that would have at least 1 pool of 5 people for first round pools. If there are exactly 320 entrants for an event there would be 5 people for first round pools. If brawl somehow reaches 384 entrants each pool would have 6 people for first round.

This is all speculation as the way pools works can be subject to change but we're most likely sticking with this imo.

inb4a400mantournamentand7mantop2getoutpools

Mk9 has roughly the attendance that Brawl has now.

I dont believe this for a second.
I believe you live in the tristate area, so at a nyc tournament id believe that mk tournaments get the same turnout as a smash event. But I dont believe for a second that that applies to every smash region in the country.

Well that would mean that melee is likely to be stuck at 4 man pools and I think that's just a shame. Why would an international tourney have 4 man pools? People travel form half way across the world for possibly only 3 matches?

melee is already at like 220 entrants and with the last minute registration surge, its practically guaranteed to hit at least 256 which is the barrier number between 4 and 5 man pools.

Is saving time really that much more important than the experience of the players?

Yes.
Now, Im not staff or anything and my statements only reflect my opinion. But when I read results threads, I typically see comments like this:
'This tournament was AMAZING! It was kinda lame that 2-0d every match in my pool, but its ok, I loved coming and I would definitely come again and everyone was so nice and this was the best weekend ever.'
note the general tone of that ^^ comment and compare that to this:
'Well, the tournament was ok. the staff was good, and everything got finished on time, and i won the giveaway which was cool I guess. and I got to play with everyone that I wanted to. But the tournament as a whole sucked because I got put in a death pool and missed brackets by one game.'

I ALWAYS see the first comment, and I NEVER see the second. So yes, making sure that all events run smoothly and finish in the scheduled time. Is in fact a bigger factor than making sure every tom, **** and harry, gets to have 7 tournament matches. Because running the schedule correctly is a big part of making sure everyone has the best experience possible.

True, but why isn't 6 man pools doable. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why this tourney is so different from Genesis2 or Pound 5 which had big pools and still finished on time. Genesis2 had 8 man pools and 3 rounds of pool and it still finished on time, it just seems like Strife is making a gross miscalculation as to how much time is needed to run things efficiently.

I like you. So I dont want you to take this the wrong way, but Im pretty sure strife and the rest of the apex staff are a bit more knowledgable on the topic than you. I have my concerns too, but I trust that he knows what hes doing.

I think the smash community is a tad spoiled. We're basically the only community that does round robin pools and we're also the only community that seeds down to the wire(4th, 5th, and 6th seeds). I've been to 2 Sf4 majors so far and wow, it takes the like 40 minutes to seed 274 people. The main thing they focus on is getting top players from same regions out of each other's pools. If you aren't making top 3 or 4 consistently at your locals you don't complain about getting a bad seed.

I think 4 people pools is a way to compromise. You still get round robin pools, but the tournament also runs a lot faster.

SOOOOO MUUUCCHHHH THISSSS.

This is the first thing anyone's said that makes sense regarding pools.

From a logical standpoint 4 man pools are still a waste of time. Yeah smashers are spoiled, I would just rather have a straight bracket than 4 man pools because it actually makes sense. No one is giving off the attitude you are though they are acting like 4 man pools are "better" when they are worse in almost every comprehensible way.

the time thing is a legitamate point tho.

If you have the ability to finish your tournament on time with 4+ people getting out of pools(less pools more people in each) then it should be done that way. If you have very little time you should go straight bracket. Smaller pools like this should be a very rare thing at the very least but what gimr said makes sense.

based on what youre saying and what merk is saying, I think that even though there are a lot of people that are confused by the 4 man pools, people have problems with it for different reasons and have different ways that they want to change the process to fix it, which only exascerbates the problem.

Going back into why we are doing that.

It would take a lot of time to literally grab someone people for 15-30 mins.

Also, I do not know if you read this or not , but friendlies will be provided the entire weekend.


With 64 pools of 4-5 people most moderate level players make it out and still play a lot of matches.


I understand what you are saying but this has been brought up. I do not think I need to explain this further when it has been explained every time someone has asked me.

You should put it in the OP or something lol.

 

[ThePrime]

If there's going to be friendly setups the entire time, why are people complaining about the 4 man pools and not being able to play enough people?

 

[mikeray4]

What do you consider a "moderate level player" to be? I would really like an example, so I can see where you guys are coming from.

 

[z00ted]

Every time I enter this thread people are arguing.

In my opinion, 4 man pools is going to disappoint a lot of people.

 

[Merkuri]

I dont believe this for a second.
I believe you live in the tristate area, so at a nyc tournament id believe that mk tournaments get the same turnout as a smash event. But I dont believe for a second that that applies to every smash region in the country.

Yeah, in NY attendance is roughly the same. Is there some reason why you believe that the ratio would deviate more in other regions? Based on my knowledge on the two communities they have roughly the same backing. In fact iirc MK9 has had a tourney with over 300 attendees.

Yes.
Now, Im not staff or anything and my statements only reflect my opinion. But when I read results threads, I typically see comments like this:
'This tournament was AMAZING! It was kinda lame that 2-0d every match in my pool, but its ok, I loved coming and I would definitely come again and everyone was so nice and this was the best weekend ever.'
note the general tone of that ^^ comment and compare that to this:
'Well, the tournament was ok. the staff was good, and everything got finished on time, and i won the giveaway which was cool I guess. and I got to play with everyone that I wanted to. But the tournament as a whole sucked because I got put in a death pool and missed brackets by one game.'

I ALWAYS see the first comment, and I NEVER see the second. So yes, making sure that all events run smoothly and finish in the scheduled time. Is in fact a bigger factor than making sure every tom, **** and harry, gets to have 7 tournament matches. Because running the schedule correctly is a big part of making sure everyone has the best experience possible.

I think you're mistaken here. People showing appreciation for an event even though they didn't get to play much matches is characteristic of a local or state event. This is so because there is not much effort in driving one or two hours and then going home on the same night. You'll see a lot more complaints for a 3 day international tourney because people are booking plane ticket, and booking hotels, taking time off work, spending a whole lot of money and committing 3 days to attend the event instead of just driving an hour to play games and hang with friends for a day.

THE REASON why major events have larger pools is so that the people who make the sacrifice to attend the tourney can get the most bang for their buck. People mention that moderate level players will still make it out of pools but they are not the only ones that matter. Genesis2 had up to 8 man pools, so that the minimum games you would get in were 7 matches. It's not so important for everyone to have a good shot to get out of pools as it is for them to get a decent amount of games in. Apex isn't doing pools for doubles so the least they could do is not give us tiny pools in singles.

I like you. So I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but Im pretty sure strife and the rest of the apex staff are a bit more knowledgable on the topic than you. I have my concerns too, but I trust that he knows what hes doing.

You're right. After Alex explained it I understood his time managing a bit better but it still seems as if things can be efficient. He said that it would take 15-30 minutes to grab someone for an interview? I don't think people are interested in 30 minute interviews. And you'd be interviewing very few people if that is the format you're using. I am event coordinator for a living so I'm at least knowledgeable on how to manage an event correctly and this all feels off.

 

[Heartstring]

If there's going to be friendly setups the entire time, why are people complaining about the 4 man pools and not being able to play enough people?

Because people are silly
I'm almost certain i'm going to get flattened in pools. But i get to meet the several dozen people i've talked to a lot online, and thats what i'm truly here for!

 

[mikeray4]

(Copied from http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=130588)

Venue Fee $40 (was cheaper before but for the purpose of the argument its 40)
40x500=$20,000


That's on venue fee alone.

Now you're thinking "Mike it takes a lot of money to run a tourney this size." And you're right it does cost a lot of money

However, the entrance fee for brawl and other events definitely covers the prizes cost.

Lets say they come up $5000 short though. That means that they have to dig in their venue fee fund. (20,000-5000 = 15,000)

And for arguments sake lets say that Rutgers +other fees also are an additional cost of $5,000 (could be more, but most likely much less).

That leaves us with $10,000






Where does that money go?
Apex is most definitely a for profit tourney. And because of that I have a feeling that the seeding staff is going to cater to the international players, so that they will return. (Why would they come back if 90% can't make it out of pools?)

I just have a bad feeling about apex....and after apex 2010's **** show of pools. I'm lead to believe that maybe it will happen again. All I'm saying is to not be surprised if Apex 2012 is not seeded as "fairly and non biased" as you might be thinking it will be.


Plus pools are 4 man with the top 2 getting out.


My prediction for my pool
Ally
Coney
Mikeray4
Illmatic

Mr. R's pool
Mr. R
Peachkid
Metal Pat
Brood




I'm just saying

 

[Alex Strife]

Im sure advancing the community with content and stuff for sponsors mean nothing to many of you but it does to me.

 

[yoshq]

50$ bo7? Im ready

You're either the only or one of two people who've ever beat me, so $20.

 

[KiraFlax]

Since I no Longer have the funds to tobuy myself a plane ticket to Apex Im going to be selling my apex ticket.

Includes:
-Brawl Singles
-Brawl Doubles
-All Brawl

Ill sell it all for 60 dollars. Anyone that wants in on this PM me right away! Must have paypal! or wepay.

Dang i wish i coulda gone to APEX so bad!!
Good luck to everyone that goes!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yeah, in NY attendance is roughly the same. Is there some reason why you believe that the ratio would deviate more in other regions? Based on my knowledge on the two communities they have roughly the same backing. In fact iirc MK9 has had a tourney with over 300 attendees.

I dont want to argue smash vs mortal kombat here but are you talking about MLG/the company sponsored release tournament or a grassroots event?

THE REASON why major events have larger pools is so that the people who make the sacrifice to attend the tourney can get the most bang for their buck. People mention that moderate level players will still make it out of pools but they are not the only ones that matter. Genesis2 had up to 8 man pools, so that the minimum games you would get in were 7 matches. It's not so important for everyone to have a good shot to get out of pools as it is for them to get a decent amount of games in. Apex isn't doing pools for doubles so the least they could do is not give us tiny pools in singles.

Once again. This is only my personal opinion based on experience.

Any pool over 6 people is AZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

ive been in 7 and 8 and I think one time a 9 person pool. And it freaking sucks. Everyone knows whos going to get out of the pool like 8 (out of 28 in an 8 man pool) games in, and nobody even cares or wants to play their matches after that. After some nub gets stomped out by like 4 people better than him, he knows hes not getting out and probably doesnt care to play his matches, which 1. takes ALLLL of the hype out of these "tournament sets" that you seem to want so badly. and 2. makes people drag out their sets because they feel they have to play them but are too disenchanted to actively go do it.

Given the current time frame (going from a 400 man brawl tourney/350 person melee tourney, down to top 8 in a single day) running large 7/8 man pools along with the obvious schedule conflicts (I am 99% certain that some matches are going to get held up because so and so is playing in 2-4 tournaments in one day and is going to drag everything down because he has to play everything) is physically impossible. So after you take that option off the table, the only options left are 1. Smaller pools or 2. Straight bracket.

You're right. After Alex explained it I understood his time managing a bit better but it still seems as if things can be efficient. He said that it would take 15-30 minutes to grab someone for an interview? I don't think people are interested in 30 minute interviews. And you'd be interviewing very few people if that is the format you're using. I am event coordinator for a living so I'm at least knowledgeable on how to manage an event correctly and this all feels off.

im not well versed in stuff like that. but I can easily see how it would take 20 minutes to find a player, get the interviewer, bring them to the same place, set everything up properly to look professional, and conduct a 5-7 minute interview. Possibly longer if you catch somebody in the middle of a match, or the middle of 'can it wait two minutes, I REALLY want to watch this match.' or 'im really hungry can i eat/use the bathroom/take a nap/blahblahblah' Humans arent perfect, and things dont always work out on schedule so you have to have some leeway so if things break down, the entire event doesnt fall apart.

 

[tekkie]

regarding the "there will be friendlies setups everywhere" thing, for those of us who aren't SUPER PRO SMASHORZ i'm pretty sure we'll be fighting for the death for the three friendlies setups that aren't being used in tournament or by PEOPLE WHO MATTER MORE THAN US



edit: but for the record i don't give a rat's *** about pool size

 

[LLDL]

Well it should be clear that the friendlies setups are different than the bracket setups. Some will be used purely for bracket, which the recording staff will be manning, and then the designated friendly setups will not be used for tournament.

 

[Divinokage]

Lmao Merkuri, you mean who doesn't want to be interviewed? I'm pretty sure most top players don't mind giving their opinions because it makes them feel important, I don't mind the attention.. I like it actually. Who are you talking about now? It's not like lower skilled players are going to get interviewed anyways. You have to earn that right.

 

[DMG]

That's right, only those chosen by the gods get the spotlight

















Unless you RISE UP AND CLAIM IT FOR YOURSELF!

(mindless Blaber)

Apex gonna be legit

 

[Morin0]

Since I no Longer have the funds to tobuy myself a plane ticket to Apex Im going to be selling my apex ticket.

Includes:
-Brawl Singles
-Brawl Doubles
-All Brawl

Ill sell it all for 60 dollars. Anyone that wants in on this PM me right away! Must have paypal! or wepay.

Dang i wish i coulda gone to APEX so bad!!
Good luck to everyone that goes!

Have you asked for a refund? Alex Strife has made it clear that he would happily refund people as long as it's before the 31st.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Once again. This is only my personal opinion based on experience.

Any pool over 6 people is AZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

ive been in 7 and 8 and I think one time a 9 person pool. And it freaking sucks. Everyone knows whos going to get out of the pool like 8 (out of 28 in an 8 man pool) games in, and nobody even cares or wants to play their matches after that. After some nub gets stomped out by like 4 people better than him, he knows hes not getting out and probably doesnt care to play his matches, which 1. takes ALLLL of the hype out of these "tournament sets" that you seem to want so badly. and 2. makes people drag out their sets because they feel they have to play them but are too disenchanted to actively go do it.

Given the current time frame (going from a 400 man brawl tourney/350 person melee tourney, down to top 8 in a single day) running large 7/8 man pools along with the obvious schedule conflicts (I am 99% certain that some matches are going to get held up because so and so is playing in 2-4 tournaments in one day and is going to drag everything down because he has to play everything) is physically impossible. So after you take that option off the table, the only options left are 1. Smaller pools or 2. Straight bracket.

I agree with this 100% percent mainly because I see your viewpoint since we both play Smash and fighters.

I would personally rather see double elimination pools (like at EVO and other FGC majors) at this instead of round robin pools but Smash isn't ready for that I guess.