Anti-mosque protests on the rise, say Muslim advocates

[Thino]

I think you're trivializing 9/11 way too much.

I think people ( Americans ) are making too much of a big deal out of it , NINE years later

of course that is coming from someone who lives outside America and followed the events from afar so thats probably why

if you have some reasons to believe that 9/11 should be taken in a less trivial way than I seem to be considering it , please state them , Im curious to hear why

 

[theeboredone]

I believe it was the first attack on America from a foreign country. The only other time blood was shed in an act of war or massive cause was the Civil war. You can say it's a pretty historical event that will be in our textbooks to come, but I feel like people need to get over it for the most part. It's okay to mourn on the day of 9/11, but don't let it change your thoughts on what should be rational based in the first place.

 

[~N9NE~]

I think people ( Americans ) are making too much of a big deal out of it , NINE years later

of course that is coming from someone who lives outside America and followed the events from afar so thats probably why

if you have some reasons to believe that 9/11 should be taken in a less trivial way than I seem to be considering it , please state them , Im curious to hear why

You cannot underestimate just how much the following nine years have been dictated by actions and reactions to the events of 9/11. You can't just view it in isolation.

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, the attacks on London, Madrid and Bali, changes in foreign policy of several countries, changes to the structuring of security globally, the increased debate about nuclear weapons, the US continually flirting with conflict with Iran, the renewed emergence of religious relations as a global issue, the renewed emergence of Jihad as a global issue, the issue of immigration and assimilation of Muslims within the West and so much more...all are influenced by 9/11 directly or indirectly. Of course it is not the only causing influence in what has transpired over the last nine years but it has played a massive role.

But above all that, from a humanistic approach you can not trivialize the loss of life that occurred. Lives are continually lost daily in other horrendous attacks and circumstances but that doesn't by any means make 9/11 forgettable.

How many years have passed since The Holocaust? Does that make it any less pertinent today? Of course not.

Keep in mind that I'm not American either.

 

[Pluvia]

To nitpick here, you missed out a few terrorist attacks like the failed transatlantic airliner plot and the 2 failed car bombs in an English city (I forget which) and the failed Glasgow Airport suicide bombing caused by the same guys that tried setting off those 2 bombs.

Also you said increased debate of nuclear weapons but I'm pretty sure we haven't increased the frequency of debates that took place during the Cold War.

 

[1048576]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmElGq2U-o

It's been like a day for each person killed. That's more than enough.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I say that those Muslims need to keep their filthy stuff away from Ground Zero..you don't go and build a church(or any kind of building for that matter) near the location of a great tragedy...You just don't, Okay! Those muslims need to respect our wishes and find somewhere else to out that mosque. If that mosque does indeed get built near Ground Zero, I can guarantee you that its gonna be destroyed instantly...

First of all, muslim stuff is filthy? Like, by credit of being muslim or not? Islamophobic.
Second of all, 3000 people is not a great tragedy, it's an assault blown way out of proportion. The sooner this becomes a footnote in american history as opposed to a headline, the sooner the world becomes SANE again. Ever heard of Darfur? Remember that? How there were hundreds of thousands being murdered there?
Thirdly, "respect our wishes"? You mean, they are supposed to bow down to open bigotry?
Fourthly, they are keeping it away from ground zero. This mosque is not right on the site of the WTC towers. It is two city blocks away. That's a pretty fair distance, wouldn't you think?
Fifthly, the moment we bow down to what the ignorant, the bigoted want; the moment we give in to what those who would threaten us with violence... that is when the terrorists win. The only sane thing to do is to fight for the survival and existence of this mosque, because at this point, the only arguments against it are based out of misinformation, bigotry, and the support of both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmElGq2U-o

It's been like a day for each person killed. That's more than enough.

I lol'd. Really, REALLY hard.

 

[Thino]

You cannot underestimate just how much the following nine years have been dictated by actions and reactions to the events of 9/11. You can't just view it in isolation.

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, the attacks on London, Madrid and Bali, changes in foreign policy of several countries, changes to the structuring of security globally, the increased debate about nuclear weapons, the US continually flirting with conflict with Iran, the renewed emergence of religious relations as a global issue, the renewed emergence of Jihad as a global issue, the issue of immigration and assimilation of Muslims within the West and so much more...all are influenced by 9/11 directly or indirectly. Of course it is not the only causing influence in what has transpired over the last nine years but it has played a massive role.

But above all that, from a humanistic approach you can not trivialize the loss of life that occurred. Lives are continually lost daily in other horrendous attacks and circumstances but that doesn't by any means make 9/11 forgettable.

How many years have passed since The Holocaust? Does that make it any less pertinent today? Of course not.

Keep in mind that I'm not American either.

those are the historical consequences and reactions to the attacks , they cannot be forgotten or denied thats for sure.


but that doesnt mean the victims or the place have to be mourned over according to the consequences and influences it had or its having

and on a humanistic point of view , there are many catastrophes that made many more victims than 9/11

 

[ChaosKnight]

I believe it was the first attack on America from a foreign country. The only other time blood was shed in an act of war or massive cause was the Civil war.

pearl harbor? ....

 

[GreenKirby]

I believe it was the first attack on America from a foreign country.

Pearl Harbor

In which lo and behold, bigots attacked Japanese Americans during that time.

The end result is that there are now several Shinto and Buddhist shrines near Pearl Harbor. :\

 

[~N9NE~]

To nitpick here, you missed out a few terrorist attacks like the failed transatlantic airliner plot and the 2 failed car bombs in an English city (I forget which) and the failed Glasgow Airport suicide bombing caused by the same guys that tried setting off those 2 bombs.

Also you said increased debate of nuclear weapons but I'm pretty sure we haven't increased the frequency of debates that took place during the Cold War.

Yeah I'm sure I missed much more. The point about nuclear weapons was that debate has intensified as a result of events like 9/11 and America's presence within the Middle East, I wasn't claiming it has reached an all time peak.

Second of all, 3000 people is not a great tragedy, it's an assault blown way out of proportion. The sooner this becomes a footnote in american history as opposed to a headline, the sooner the world becomes SANE again. Ever heard of Darfur? Remember that? How there were hundreds of thousands being murdered there?

3,000 people is not a great tragedy? What equates a great tragedy then? 3,001 lives lost? 10,000? 100,000?

Such a mentality is absurd. All life is precious, don't act like because other events have claimed more lives that makes the events of 9/11 insignificant.

those are the historical consequences and reactions to the attacks , they cannot be forgotten or denied thats for sure.

but that doesnt mean the victims or the place have to be mourned over according to the consequences and influences it had or its having

and on a humanistic point of view , there are many catastrophes that made many more victims than 9/11

You stated that nine years later Americans are making a big deal out of it. Truth is, it still is a big deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmElGq2U-o

It's been like a day for each person killed. That's more than enough.

That video was in horribly bad taste.

 

[theeboredone]

Pearl Harbor

In which lo and behold, bigots attacked Japanese Americans during that time.

The end result is that there are now several Shinto and Buddhist shrines near Pearl Harbor. :\

Ah my mistake, I totally forgot about Pearl Harbor >_<. Though it is interesting how you mention there are several Shrines near the place now. Did not know that at all. I wonder if they came under as much scrutiny as Muslims are today.

 

[Thino]

You stated that nine years later Americans are making a big deal out of it. Truth is, it still is a big deal.

Then , for the matter we're discussing about, it certainly shouldnt (still) be for the reasons you've mentioned.


-other terrorist attacks
-change of foreign policy and security in America and other Western countries.
-awareness of religious extremism all around the world
-rise of tension in the Middle Eastern area

all those are natural consequences of what happened , for security reasons for countries that can be target , for opportunity reasons for terrorists that see that its actually possibly to breach into a country's security therefore will try to plan more attacks , and that is what happened

all those obviously still do matter and will do for a long time because security and peace are at stake.

BUT...

What does that have to do with associating any religious or Islamic construction NEAR Ground Zero to 9/11 ? for what purpose?

this is not about forgetting , this is about moving on.

 

[Rici]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmElGq2U-o

It's been like a day for each person killed. That's more than enough.

I'm so going to hell for laughing at this.

I mean, I know I shouldn't laugh at it, but it just happened.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I'm so going to hell for laughing at this.

I mean, I know I shouldn't laugh at it, but it just happened.

The sped up footage of 9/11 set to Yakety Sax made me realize that anything could be made funny.

 

[El Nino]

Man, I go away for a day or two....

Weapons and money are necessary to incite violence, but alone they are useless without a belief in the legitimacy of violence.

Right. But what I'm suggesting is that those beliefs have been implanted by people with political motives. Attacking that doctrine won't help in that setting because when people feel like their beliefs are under attack, they do not take that kindly, and they will not abandon those beliefs in the face of rational debate. More importantly, it's hard to hold discussions when both sides are armed.

Again I'm not as politically knowledgeable as you, but do American communists believe murdering and subjugating advocates of capitalism is the best deed they can do in life? Do they believe it grants them instant access to Paradise?

The movement is split. Some are militant; others are not. But, yes, the militant branches believe that change must happen by any means necessary.

They don't believe in Paradise, but they do believe that the society that they'll set up after the revolution will be better than this one by spades.

If they don't then maybe that's why they're not revolting against America as the Islamic world is.

Quite simply put, they don't have the means. The Soviet Union no longer exists, and even if it did exist, it's hard to say if the Soviets would be willing to fund an internal American revolt as they funded revolts elsewhere, as the Pakistani intelligence agency funded the Taliban in Afghanistan.

I've heard you speak of Muhammad being admired for his charisma on previous occasions. Can you direct me to anything to support this view of Muhammad as a charismatic leader?

I think people view him as charismatic because of the way the fundamentalists have doctored his character. I don't know if that is consistent with his portrayal in the text.

"The greatest weakness of the Ikhwan model of political Islam is its dependence on a single charismatic leader...rather than a more democratically constituted organization to lead it. The obsession of radical Islam is not the creation of institutions, but the character and purity of its leader, his virtues and qualifications and whether his personality can emulate the personality of the Prophet Mohammed."

--Ahmed Rashid, Taliban

Now if you're saying that Muhammad was not confident and charismatic, then the impression of him as such is a fabrication by the radicals, which leads me to believe that their interpretation of Islam is at odds with everyone else's.

A distinction should be made between defence and inciting violence and causing death. That said, I think the best approach concerning terrorism is education and addressing Islamic doctrine.

I also forgot to mention one major point about Islam and violence, at least with regards to the Taliban (again, from Rashid):

"...Jihad does not sanction the killing of fellow Muslims on the basis of ethnicity or sect.... While the Taliban claim they are fighting a jihad against corrupt, evil Muslims, the ethnic minorities see them as using Islam as a cover to exterminate non-Pashtuns."

The conflict in Afghanistan has been drawn along distinct ethnic lines. This serves to undercut the Taliban's claim that they are fighting a holy war based on the principles of their religion.

Could you link me to anything about practising Muslims challenging such traditions in their own societies?

http://www.wolfmanproductions.com/faisal.html
http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-307/i.html

I think you're trivializing 9/11 way too much.

Maybe. But Thino has a point.

Grief is a natural response to tragedy. But so is recovery. The inability to recover is usually a sign of another problem.

Though I'm not happy to say it, the focus that is put on 9/11, all the tributes and the moments of silence and the proposed monuments, all of that has done very little except to bring people back to their pain. And once that wound has been exposed, politicians leap in to take advantage of people in their moments of weakness.

We are in an election season. One party is currently the minority, and they would like to be the majority. So they are willing to re-ignite the same old passions that kept one of their leaders in power in 2005. They are the ones sticking the knife into the 9/11 wound again. If they keep doing that, that wound will never heal.

They, like the people they profess to be at war with, are benefitting from the fear and the trauma of the attack. They are also playing a game with people's emotions.

We can't do anything about the past. It's the present and future we have to worry about. And sometimes I feel as though we have to steel our emotions in order to think rationally, or else leave a gaping wound open to manipulation by people who have the money to buy lots of air time.

 

[freeman123]

The funny thing is that the mosque is being built by Sufi Muslims, and Osama bin Laden and his followers hate Sufi Muslims. By protesting the mosque, the protesters are actually siding with the people responsible for 9/11.

In any case, I believe completely in property rights. If you own property, and you want to put a mosque on it, then I don't think anyone else has the right to tell you that you can't.

 

[BBQTV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPC-isxrhTs&feature=channel

 

[Thino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPC-isxrhTs&feature=channel

we've already talked about everything he said o.o