Alright guys, we've got **** to do

[-Ran]

I like to fall through platform to up air to Up Tilt.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I like to fall through platform to up air to Up Tilt.

I do not think that auto-cancels does it? Perhaps, only on FF uairs it does that (of which I perform falling through plaforms).

Oh, and about the rolling backwards to prevent people from going past snake, that is not guranteed. Take Olimar for example. If Ollie buffers the roll out of dthrow, then he will get past snake even if Snake crouches. However, if snake can crouch before olimar rolls, he will not roll past Snake. He merely pushes snake backwards while being in front of snake the whole time. Still need to test the whole cast though to see if someone can be blocked.

 

[.AC.]

buffering things out of short hop airdodge is amazing.

 

[Limeee]

i thought that was what the backroom is for T.T

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Backroom is dead son. Pretty much all character back rooms are dead.

 

[xDD-Master]

Before we're talking about how to make snake better, shouldnt we get at allys level?
But OK, maybe we're talking about how to make ally better? then lol

And oh, I wonder how japanese Snakes would fight against M2K and if they would stay a chance...

 

[etecoon]

I just really want to stress the importance of these things.

2. ways to wean Snakes from relying on the 'prediction' playstyle.

why would you even want this? if anything most snake's need a massive amount of work on this, not to try and ignore it. snake's ability to take one read and **** you up horribly for it is most of why he is so good. I feel like this is the best thing about snake, he's probably the best character for making comebacks maybe except lucario, everyone else I just feel like "whoever gets a lead and stalls like a douche first wins"

 

[Underload]

I worded that horribly.

What I'm trying to get at is that Snake doesn't have much development in the form of traditional spacing of moves. A character like Metaknight actually needs to work a decent amount on how to space his moves, in addition to learning how to bait their opponent and tricking them into spacing stupidly. Some Snakes may be smart enough to space their moves correctly, but as a collective, there's a minimal emphasis put on it. There's no reason why anybody playing Snake should get dash grabbed while pulling a nade or trying to set a mine (just an example). If something like that does happen to him, then his spacing is all wrong, and he isn't honoring his opponent's potential options.

When I wrote that post, for some reason I saw a 'spacing' playstyle and a 'prediction' playstyle as two opposite ends of the same spectrum. I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Also, uthrow -> utilt at low percents is a decent 22%+ of damage. I'd like some frame data on this, but the weight of an opponent's character is a huge factor in how much cooldown uthrow has.

 

[etecoon]

that depends on your opponents character and stage somewhat, sometimes it's basically NEVER safe/enough room to pull a grenade, feel like fighting 100% without grenades? you can't fight on spacing alone, it's important, but prediction is the most important skill you can have

 

[Underload]

No, it's usually safe to pull grenades, really. You're really overstating that point.

And I didn't say anybody should fight on spacing alone, because spacing isn't a playstyle. It's just an aspect of your play that needs to be advanced, like tech skill or edgeguarding. I'm trying to point out that Snakes in particular don't really have a huge focus on their spacing, which is really bad. I phrased my first post to say 'spacing' was some sort of playstyle, but that's not what I was trying to get across.

 

[etecoon]

No, it's usually safe to pull grenades, really. You're really overstating that point.

hence why I said IN CERTAIN MATCHUPS ON CERTAIN STAGES, it's circumstancial

 

[Sync.]

In regards to tech chase is it frame safe to jab as soon as you downgrab for covering the delayed get up? I think you can still PS get up attacks if they're buffered. I found it to work really well against characters with really short rolls such as Olimar because you cover the rolls just by regrabbing in place or forward tilting.

 

[Underload]

No, not if everything is frame perfect. Snake has 1 frame of lag after his opponent can move (so 59 frames for the opponent, 60 frames for Snake). So that 1 frame, coupled with the 3 frames of startup, means your opponent has 4 frames of advantage. So no frame safe jab. However, if you couple in human error, then maybe.

 

[Sync.]

Oh ok but that could be an option it just isn't 100% safe. It would be a good mix up and could lead to other thing that deliver more damage. Lately I've been experimenting with things to maximize my damage I get per grab. I have a bad habit of attempting a regrab. I try and get a follow up after about two grabs now.

Also, does Snake have any footstooling options? Maybe we can experiment with forcing foes into claymores or getting a free C4 in the air through footstooling.

I also think up throw into claymore is good for stages like BF and F throwing into timed out C4s is something we could try as well.

 

[Limeee]

we need to find a way to do, a running uptilt of some sort

that would help tremendously

 

[Underload]

Timed out C4s would be hard to time. Uthrow, bthrow, and fthrow into mines on BF and SV have been in play for a while. Razer likes to use that strat.

As for footstooling, I did some testing back in the day, but not much came up. Gimping Yoshi is about the best you can do. If somebody's recovering from below, you might try a footstool there, but it's risky and probably not your best option.

'Running' utilt: Run -> tap shield -> buffer utilt

 

[-Ran]

Also, uthrow -> utilt at low percents is a decent 22%+ of damage. I'd like some frame data on this, but the weight of an opponent's character is a huge factor in how much cooldown uthrow has.

Taking it back to 2008. There's actually a ton of little 'n00b' stuff like this that works at least once or twice in a set, or can set up better things. At 0 Percent, you can often times get away with, Up Throw to Up Tilt to read: Up air, pivot grab, or up tilt again. Up Tilt has always been a move that Snake mains have always held on for the kill, but it does have a place in the early percent game. If your opponent thinks you'll up-tilt every aerial approach, they'll be forced to change their method of play.

 

[Limeee]

i meant without the shield

 

[napZzz]

First off, thanks for making this yume, I had thoughts about it but I wasn't sure what I would say, this is really gonna help

I got a laptop with SD card capabilities right now, so if I knew how to hack my wii, I would install some way to do frame testing.

Completely unrelated I'll help you hack your wii sometime as long as you haven't updated it

But that's just it. Snake as a character has always been about punishing our opponents during a match. One mistake would equal a forward tilt, or at a distance them getting hit by a grenade. If they failed to focus on where me placed our c4, they would take damage or be killed. Snake doesn't have many ways to force damage onto someone, unless they make a mistake, or denied options to the extent that they are left in a position where Snake can punish them.

Why is Ally good? Superior reaction time and reads.

Low level players continue to attempt to thread the needle with attacks that aren't going to hit. Instead of doing damage, they put themselves into a position where they are going to get hit instead, or put into a worse position that before. The Metagame for Snake isn't going to change. Snake isn't a glamorous character in terms of what he can do. There's a reason that 19 or so characters in the game consider themselves to have an even match up with Snake. They recognize that the only way Snake is going to truly do damage to them is when they make mistakes. This doesn't make Snake a bad character, it just means that as players we have to be prepared to capitalize on the mistakes that our opponents are going to make.

Snake can force mistakes with:
Retreating pivot grabs
Grenade counters
Grenade throwing/cooking.
Mortar Slide to aerial.
Power shielding. <----- Get better at this.
Unique move selection. Up Tilt at low percents to stop aerial approaches, and so on.

We gotta change this somehow =/ he needs more than this cat and mouse game...

Taking it back to 2008. There's actually a ton of little 'n00b' stuff like this that works at least once or twice in a set, or can set up better things. At 0 Percent, you can often times get away with, Up Throw to Up Tilt to read: Up air, pivot grab, or up tilt again. Up Tilt has always been a move that Snake mains have always held on for the kill, but it does have a place in the early percent game. If your opponent thinks you'll up-tilt every aerial approach, they'll be forced to change their method of play.

Knowing all these little "n00b" tricks are good ways to catch people off guard. If every now and again you can pull off something extremely unexpected, maybe because it really is THAT stupid that noone would think of it, or that its just a smart unavoidable situation you trapped them into, you change their way of play and can mold their reactions into what you want them to be if you're smart with it....but most of the time characters just have too many options to properly read and punish with this playstyle, it still helps alot tho

for example, metaknight. He has so many options in whatever situation he's about to face you in...its difficult to rely on hard reads by using tricks like this

 

[etecoon]

'Running' utilt: Run -> tap shield -> buffer utilt

people see this coming a lot, I like grenade run to shield utilt, most people get conditioned to being grabbed out of that so they may spot dodge or roll behind you or try to attack your shield

 

[napZzz]

most people shield when a snake comes at them anyways, at least until a certain range because snakes grab isn't the best around and playing out of shield vs. him trying to bait the grab but staying out of tilt range is really annoying to get around

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I think we should also test how Snake's crouch affects certain char's roll behind after a dthrow. If Snake can indeed prevent a few characters from getting behind him (which I'm willing to bet it will). This could help us tremendously in our techchase game.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

:/
:/\:://:

 

[-Ran]

The characters that matter, ie the Top tiers aren't effected. It doesn't even work on Olimar. This was all tested against a computer on FD, so each time the roll was buffered.

 

[AfroQT]

Snake is like Sagat.

It's not like theres a new combo you can learn. You just keep "playing smarter".

 

[Attila_]

we need to find a way to do, a running uptilt of some sort

that would help tremendously

did we ever finish looking into the naritake step?

 

[Blacknight99923]

well there true pivoting I guess.

I think OS mentioned something in a podcast about running uptilt but he never finished or released the work

 

[Limeee]

he was also talking about running dsmashes that slid halfway across FD

overswarm where you at

/namesearch

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Snake is like Sagat.

It's not like theres a new combo you can learn. You just keep "playing smarter".

Despite the fact Afro has been trolling like mad the last couple of weeks, he speaks the truth with these words.

 

[Attila_]

i only just realised snake could autocancel fair off a full hop. there you go.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i only just realised snake could autocancel fair off a full hop. there you go.

Where is this leading?

 

[Attila_]

no where in particular, but its better than not knowing it. just add it on to the list of 1%ers.

 

[napZzz]

I think at this point its just up to a snake player to have superior reading/reaction time and an insane amount of little tricks and traps

 

[AfroQT]

I think at this point its just up to a snake player to have superior reading/reaction time and an insane amount of little tricks and traps

Sadly.
Though this is a blessing and a curse.

 

[Limeee]

has anybody made use of the sliding spotdodge out of grenade stance?

i never really bothered with it

i'm just throwing out ideas btw

 

[napZzz]

I took a list of all of snakes basic little things like that recently and was trying to find ways to combine them with other things as well as using stages at the same time. There are more possibilities than you might think, its just always good to look into something like this more. I suggest the rest of you should try too

hell, we might even find out some broken *** at for snake we never knew about before

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I will be testing the tech chasing stuff soon. I wouldve done it last night but Judge and I were partying and I get destroyed by Bacardi. I'll work on it tomorrow as I do not have work tomorrow.

 

[Attila_]

so today i dtilted through a nado. someone explain please.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

so today i dtilted through a nado. someone explain please.

Tornado gains priority as the B button is pressed. If it is used once or only pressed like every half second, it will not get so much priority and therefore attacks can hit through it.

I did a lot of weird stuff to etecoon earlier. I somehow managed to fend off the nado with two hits of Nair before the final hit knocked him out of it. And, I somehow manged to grab the nado OoS when the nado was already eating my shield away, I thought the attacks were too close together allow something like that to happen.

 

[etecoon]

grabbing nado OOS is actually kinda known, IIRC mikehaze made a topic about it and supposedly a lot of characters can do it, just the timing for it makes it horribly horribly impractical obviously

I blame everything else on wifi <__<