Allowing No Fatigue/No Forced Switch PT Hacks in Tourney Play

[Zankoku]

OTHER fighting games aren't ********, and take actual skill

internet phail :embarrass

I don't look at it like hacking, I look at it like changing Sakurai's AWFUL mistakes.

Correcting a single "mistake" for a single character out of many doesn't make a bad game good. It MIGHT make it better through being different than the original, but then, I don't know why you'd go to such trouble to get a miniscule potential improvement on a game that doesn't "take actual skill," according to you.

 

[metaXzero]

i wish i had smarter people than popertop and metaxzero on my side

LOL

Hey! That hurts

Remember. I'm not pushing for this. I'm simply saying their isn't a strong enough reason on either side (like no-tripping hacks, stage freeze hacks, and custom stages debates). By default, the anti-side will prevail in keeping this out of standard Brawl because adding the hack (like those other examples) is simply unneccessary.

Of course, if their were more people who wanted this hack in to...

 

[Popertop]

Correcting a single "mistake" for a single character out of many doesn't make a bad game good. It MIGHT make it better through being different than the original, but then, I don't know why you'd go to such trouble to get a miniscule potential improvement on a game that doesn't "take actual skill," according to you.

I like Charizard?

Srsly I dunno why you couldn't tell that.

edit: Thanks a lot Steeler

Spoiler

...jerk.

 

[Oracle]

Well, while the codes would help balance this broken game, they would specifically balance only one character, rather than multiple ones, which is selfish and stupid.
I'm sure the community would be fine with a captain falcon no suck code.

Anyway, alternate costume hacks, possibly. I mean, other fighting games have recoloring and unlockable outfits and stuff. We're stuck with only 5 for most characters. I'd love to see Sonic or Lucario not be mainly blue.

 

[Xiivi]

i wish i had smarter people than popertop and metaxzero on my side

There is nothing to your side.

You want to hack the game, which will only alienate people from providing Wiis for events. As a TO I cannot overlook the fact that people are already afraid to bring their Wiis because they might get broken. If they hear about hacks, they'll definitely shy away. Having a limited number of hacked wiis for specific players is far too much of a hassle when it is simple for their character choice. The game provides "Pokemon Trainer" with "Squirtle", "Ivysaur", and "Charizard" movesets all brought together by forcing switching and fatigue. It is not an in-game option to change this like there is for turning off items.

You want to create specific new characters for a more broad character that is already in the game. Meaning you have now offered an alternative for pokemon trainer players specifically who do not want to be bound by the mechanics of pokemon trainer. Thus you've catered to pokemon trainer players by taking pokemon trainer and making him into four distinct characters. This is catering to pokemon trainer by taking his moveset and altering it such that it works in four different, distinct ways. All of these ways offer different playstyles and match-ups and thus are offering more options to those already familiar with pokemone trainer.

The smash community is not catering to your character or any other, no matter how 'legit' you try to present it.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I like Charizard?

Srsly I dunno why you couldn't tell that.

edit: Thanks a lot Steeler

Spoiler

...jerk.

I like Captain Falcon.

Let's all do everything we can to make him a good and tourney viable character!

 

[adumbrodeus]

what? we don't change things in competitive games to make things more competitive.


huh? if adding more "viable" characters because you feel like it is okay, then why can't we just ban/hack/change everything else that makes characters unviable?



well, that's the how brawl was designed. PT had major design flaws that make him bad in tournies. too bad. deal with it.

...

As I pointed out, the issue isn't with competitive ideals directly. Though this was referenced to in play to win, the issue is fundamentally a logistical issue.


See, hacks are fine tools, unlike banning. As opposed to adding rules, it redefines the nature of the game itself.

Since it can make fine adjustments to the nature of the game itself, it's perfectly fine to do tiny things like say, remove DDD's infinite or improve captain Falcon's ^B.

There's no "minimal threshold" for redefining the game, anything goes in this sense.

That's why Sirlin removed an infinite in HD remix that he opposed banning, because fine balance, simple poor game design, "I just felt like it", pretty much anything is grounds for a hacked change.



But of course, there's a general issue with community made hacks and patches. Regardless of the nature of the patch itself, there's a tremendous logistical issue with getting hacks and patches upheld as the community standard if they're not official. Why? Simple, people don't want their systems hacked, and the out of the box version is far more convenient for use. Not to mention the fact that system updates can destroy the patch. This is especially a detriment for console games. Because this functionally forces, not only tournament organizers to hack their system, but also everyone who wants to play competitively, most players will decide it's not worth the trouble.


Quite simply, players in general will not accept hacking their systems to play the game, therefore it's pragmatically impossible to actually implement as a standard.

 

[SCOTU]

First off, sakurai didn't "fail at creating brawl" or anything like that. A game's not going to be perfect no matter what you do. So what if he made some mistakes that make some characters unviable? There are still several characters that are viable. There are several reasons this will not become a tourney standard.

1) The game does not need this. Pretty clear and simple, the game is fine as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

2) There's no way to know how this would affect the game. While I would imagine it wouldn't actually change much in the competitive scene, it would take a lot of testing to prove without a doubt that this doesn't break anything. If you forced everyone to get a rather heavy overhead patch, and then find out it has some unintended affect and need to fix/ remove it, it'd make you seem like an *******, and no one would take any future ideas of yours. Problem is, to test it, you'd need to run a tourney in it. Since you can't run a tourney with a reasonable amount of money involved (because of a beta hack) you can't test it. Catch 22.

3) Mandating a uniform Brawl Code is a rather heavy overhead on the community and on TOs. You must ensure that every Wii is hacked with the homebrew channel (something not every Wii owner wants to do, reducing the console pool for tourneys). You'd also have to ensure that the exact correct set of codes are entered in, to make sure that gameplay is the same on every console. Furthermore, you need to ensure that there are no additional codes on any wii. You could in theory add a P2 has a 1.1X damage ratio or something, where all you'd have to do is pick player 2 on that system, you'd be at an advantage, and it's very possible no one would notice (this may not be the best example because there ARE several noticeable differences, but if no one used P2 for those specific things, you'd just be killing people earlier for no reason). These things are all things that would add massive overhead at tournament set up. People would have to show up earlier with their wiis'so that the TO can set up the codes and ensure proper hackedness. Coming from a reasonable TO, I can assure you that most TOs do NOT want this additional hassle.

If a) you don't need it, b) you can't show that it will make a significant positive impact w/o being TOO positive, and c) would add a lot of extra work on everyone's behalf, i don't think this idea is going to take off very well.

 

[Yuna]

That's why Sirlin removed an infinite in HD remix that he opposed banning, because fine balance, simple poor game design, "I just felt like it", pretty much anything is grounds for a hacked change.

Sirlin wasn't a mere gamer hacking a game. Sirlin was a game creator re-balancing an official remake.

It's the equivalent of Sakurai releasing an edited version of a Smash game. We do not hack things in Competitive gaming, it just is not done. It is the same thing as banning, only potentially worse. At least when we ban something, we're only removing things from play. With hacking, we're actually rewriting the game in our image.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sirlin wasn't a mere gamer hacking a game. Sirlin was a game creator re-balancing an official remake.

It's the equivalent of Sakurai releasing an edited version of a Smash game. We do not hack things in Competitive gaming, it just is not done. It is the same thing as banning, only potentially worse. At least when we ban something, we're only removing things from play. With hacking, we're actually rewriting the game in our image.

Fundamentally I agree with you, I'm just explaining why it's ok for the creator to make changes and we can let that be the standard but not the community.

Really, it boils down to a logistics issue, the community can make their optimal game, and that would be perfectly valid, but the reasons why it's not down is, not because there's an inherent prohibition against it. But because the logistics of maintaining a hacked standard don't work.


There's nothing inherently wrong a community remaking a game in their image, just the requirements to make it mainstream competitive are highly prohibitive.



So, yes, we don't do this. But like every idea in competitive gaming, there's a practical principal behind it. For limiting banning, it's because we lack the ability to make fine balance adjustments. For hacking/patching it's logistics.



Granted, PC gaming functions a little differentially, but this is console gaming.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

That's kinda what I've been saying. It'll never be viable in mainstream tourneys, only in dedicated "hack" tourneys.

 

[Deleted member]

ok rewriting this post.

first of, has any of the people that are severly against brawl+ actually tried the hacks, since otherwise you are just saying "this game doesn't work" while you haven't even bought it yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to try it

then you might say"but it's a hack, I'm not gonna mess up my wii".
of course you are afraid of messing up your console, but the only thing that can happen is that you don't have hacks in the end, nothing else. YOU CANNOT BRICK YOUR WII WITH THIS.

also someone implied that taking away tripping gives a slippery slope since we would have to take out the random effect of GW >B and waddle dee toss.
then tell me, why did we take out items? the random factor, and some might call items "stupid" same goes for tripping or as someone said "reterded".

I don't agree on buffering PT, but hacks in general are not so bad as you think they are. TRY THEM.

 

[Oracle]

ok rewriting this post.

first of, has any of the people that are severly against brawl+ actually tried the hacks, since otherwise you are just saying "this game doesn't work" while you haven't even bought it yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to try it

then you might say"but it's a hack, I'm not gonna mess up my wii".
of course you are afraid of messing up your console, but the only thing that can happen is that you don't have hacks in the end, nothing else. YOU CANNOT BRICK YOUR WII WITH THIS.

also someone implied that taking away tripping gives a slippery slope since we would have to take out the random effect of GW >B and waddle dee toss.
then tell me, why did we take out items? the random factor, and some might call items "stupid" same goes for tripping or as someone said "reterded".

I don't agree on buffering PT, but hacks in general are not so bad as you think they are. TRY THEM.

They are for tournaments. Like Scotu just said, someone could make their wii have a player advantage and no one would notice. And the "random" argument is flawed, we only took out tripping because it can be game breaking.
Hacks will never be competitive standard, especially hacks that only buff one character, rather than all of them.

 

[Deleted member]

just so you know you can use oen SD card to load codes, then take it out and put it in the next wii, all the organiser have to do is pay a little attention and use one card that has the tournament code set.

 

[CT Chia]

i wish i had smarter people than popertop and metaxzero on my side

LOL

I'm on your side lol. I'm also talking to a bunch of people getting their thoughts about it and some other noteable players are behind it like teh_spamerer.

edit: might as well add some of my main points to the argument...

-We are already fixing the game which can be argued as not playing it the way it was meant to be played. Items are stupid, we have the option to turn them off, so we do. 75m is ridiculous, we have the option to not play on it, so we dont. There are plenty of other things that many would construe as "wrong" about the game, such as Pokemon Trainer stuff, slipping (it's technically called slipping, not tripping. thx dojo lol), MetaKnight (lol jk), various loading times between switching Zelda/Sheik and PT. If we had the option to take these things out, then we should be able to like the options to change stages and items are available.

We flat out can not use any hack that effects every player because every single Wii at a tournament would need to be modified which is impossible to do. This is why a no slipping hack can not be used in tournament. However the Pokemon Trainer hack can only be enabled on a couple of Wiis and everything works fine! So if we have the option to fix a thing that we don't believe is right about the game, why not take the opportunity?

-We aren't favoring one character over another. With the new code that only changes PT if you hold R, the old PT is still available unchanged. You have the option to be the standard PT with stamina and switch on death, or a single Pokemon with no stamina, no switch on death, but no down B move so you can't take advantage of the strengths of all 3 pokemon. We're not "favoring" pokemon trainer, he's the same. We're essentially adding three more characters to the roster.

-We don't have to be worried about other hacks being loaded. Just have the TO have an SD card with the codes preloaded (only being the PT hack and maybe unlimited replays if they feel like it lol). The TO can get personally load the homebrew channel on every Wii that needs it with his/her SD card, and take it out, and use it in another system. We have to trust the TO that no other codes will be enabled, which is reasonable considering we're already trusting the TO with hundreds if not thousands of dollars at some tournaments.

-I do agree we need testing, so at my smaller biweeklies I am going to be testing it that have attendance of ~20-30 ppl. It's a good start to test it out. Even if say this isn't ready for a big tourney like CoT4 next month, I could enable it on the Money Match TVs so people can say yo I MM your MK with my Squirtle only, so we can see how it goes and such.

 

[Deleted member]

actually it is not so hard to load codes into various wii's for a tournament.
I would figure setting up the location of a big tournament is lots more work than jamming in a few codes

 

[Toadster5]

Some people will never accept hacked Brawl. Some will only accept it if a notable scene develops around it. So arguing in a thread is pretty pointless. If they say it's not feasible, people who believe it is need to show them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The custom texture hacks require the usage of DVD burning I believe.
Previously you had to use a trucha signer (will not discuss that so don't ask what it is) in order to have the custom textures.
You can use Wiird but so far, the only custom texture hack made for it was the Ice Mario texture.

I'll make a topic whenever it gets finished.

 

[Will_]

I don't think "PT switching was meant to be and was designed that way" is a viable argument because Zelda/Sheik in melee was intended to rack damage -> switch -> KO (as demonstrated by Sheik's melee trophy and Zelda/Sheik in brawl) and we all know how that went.

Unfortunately, it's a hack. As mentioned before, there's billions of little problems with making a hack a tournament standard. I'd like to see Zard-only players do their thing, but it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ok rewriting this post.

first of, has any of the people that are severly against brawl+ actually tried the hacks, since otherwise you are just saying "this game doesn't work" while you haven't even bought it yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to try it

then you might say"but it's a hack, I'm not gonna mess up my wii".
of course you are afraid of messing up your console, but the only thing that can happen is that you don't have hacks in the end, nothing else. YOU CANNOT BRICK YOUR WII WITH THIS.

also someone implied that taking away tripping gives a slippery slope since we would have to take out the random effect of GW >B and waddle dee toss.
then tell me, why did we take out items? the random factor, and some might call items "stupid" same goes for tripping or as someone said "reterded".

I don't agree on buffering PT, but hacks in general are not so bad as you think they are. TRY THEM.

I'm in favor of hacking in general. Brawl+ is a far better game then Brawl itself.

Yet, ultimately, it's not about my personal opinions about the superiority of the game, it's about whether it's logistically workable, and it quite simply isn't.


I also have no problem with buffing PT, as far as I'm concerned he desperately needs it, as does Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link, and Jigglypuff. Were I rebalancing the game, those 5 characters would be my first choices.

I'm on your side lol. I'm also talking to a bunch of people getting their thoughts about it and some other noteable players are behind it like teh_spamerer.

edit: might as well add some of my main points to the argument...

-We are already fixing the game which can be argued as not playing it the way it was meant to be played. Items are stupid, we have the option to turn them off, so we do. 75m is ridiculous, we have the option to not play on it, so we dont. There are plenty of other things that many would construe as "wrong" about the game, such as Pokemon Trainer stuff, slipping (it's technically called slipping, not tripping. thx dojo lol), MetaKnight (lol jk), various loading times between switching Zelda/Sheik and PT. If we had the option to take these things out, then we should be able to like the options to change stages and items are available.

We flat out can not use any hack that effects every player because every single Wii at a tournament would need to be modified which is impossible to do. This is why a no slipping hack can not be used in tournament. However the Pokemon Trainer hack can only be enabled on a couple of Wiis and everything works fine! So if we have the option to fix a thing that we don't believe is right about the game, why not take the opportunity?

Firstly, the game is DESIGNED for us to be able to turn off items. The game is also designed for us to be able to not choose 75m for our random stages, and not choose it overall.

Unfortunately, going into the coding for anything, while I wish we could do it and balance the game, while fixing anti-competitive mistakes for the competitive standard, is just not logistically feasible.

The overall problem is that this would require anyone maining one of the PT characters, or playing a main of one of those characters to have a hacked Wii, and a lot of people don't want their wii hacked, period.

It's all about community acceptance, and realistically it's not workable.

-We aren't favoring one character over another. With the new code that only changes PT if you hold R, the old PT is still available unchanged. You have the option to be the standard PT with stamina and switch on death, or a single Pokemon with no stamina, no switch on death, but no down B move so you can't take advantage of the strengths of all 3 pokemon. We're not "favoring" pokemon trainer, he's the same. We're essentially adding three more characters to the roster.

Why don't you fix PT? He needs a buff, and hacking doesn't have a min threshold.

-We don't have to be worried about other hacks being loaded. Just have the TO have an SD card with the codes preloaded (only being the PT hack and maybe unlimited replays if they feel like it lol). The TO can get personally load the homebrew channel on every Wii that needs it with his/her SD card, and take it out, and use it in another system. We have to trust the TO that no other codes will be enabled, which is reasonable considering we're already trusting the TO with hundreds if not thousands of dollars at some tournaments.

Again, the issue is more getting the TOs and the average player to agree in general, individual TOs can do whatever the heck they want.


Edit:

The logistical issue is beside the point. Rebalancing the game is unacceptable, and adding in new characters does rebalance the game by making characters have different match ups than they had before. Steeler is right that it isn't quite a buff to Pokemon Trainer, but that's also irrelevant, since the important issue is that it gives characters three new match ups, and since the match up versus each individual pokemon is not going to be the same as versus the whole pokemon trainer, this effectively changes the tiers.

The only sort of hacks that are acceptable are ones that don't actually change the game... like extended replay.

You're missing the point, the REASON rebalancing the game is unacceptable is BECAUSE of logistics.

We're talking to people who aren't necessarily familiar with competitive gaming standards, so they have to be justified.

And to be quite frank, this is the reason, logistics. Competitive communities don't establish a hacked version as their standard for games BECAUSE it's a major issue logistically. Getting the community as a whole to accept it, even though it's a better game overall.


Granted, it's fine to have nitch tournaments, same as having nitch tournaments with map hacks, and items standard play. It just doesn't work as the competitive standard.

 

[Veril]

On the issue of this being a buff to PT:

Don't take out fatigue. If the option of playing only one of the pokemon exists, the purpose of their down-b could be simply to reset the fatigue counter. Thus they would keep a major weakness but still get to main the pokemon of choice.

 

[Deleted member]

independent have a 5min fatigue counter, if your not dead by then you don't have to care for it anyways

 

[Veril]

independent have a 5min fatigue counter, if your not dead by then you don't have to care for it anyways

you could change it back to 2-minutes.

 

[Popertop]

you could change it back to 2-minutes.

**** NO
TH'as retrded

 

[Veril]

**** NO
TH'as retrded

No... it isn't.

Using the down-b won't cause a pokemon change. ONE down-b can be performed every 2 minutes by a PT that knows that they are doing. THREE on the hand, cannot. Combined with not changing upon death allows a PT to main one pokemon without having a true "buff" to p*** people off.

"TH'as retrded" is ********.

 

[Rhyme]

Tripping is in the game for a reason. Players should be aware that making a quick or jerky move on the ground could cause them to whiff, and this should enourage them to play differently. Trips can break unfair chaingrabs. They can also be completely avoided by 'focusing more of your game on aerial combat' (something that Sakurai said he was attempting to do). If you don't like tripping then adjust your gameplay to its existance, don't cheat and remove it.

As for the trainer argument...first of all, great post. You covered both sides very completely, which is more than I expect out of random forum-goers. : ) However, I cannot say that I agree with what you're doing here.

Every character in Smash brothers has some sort of weakness and a player's job is to work to cover up that weakness with smart gameplay. PT is different, however, in that his weaknesses do not directly present themselves. Being forced to switch up your gameplay style three or more times per match is a weakness (but it can be a strength if you are proficient because it keeps your opponent on edge). The weaknesses that one poke'mon has are accounted for by the strengths that another has, and vice versa. Hacking the game in that way would effectively remove two-thirds of an entire character. What if I removed Samus' obvious lack of kill power, or removed Ike's landing lag? Both of those examples represent far less than two-thirds of an entire character, and yet you can probably already see how drastic of a change we're talking about here.

If your argument is that this hack does not drastically affect gameplay then I would have to disagree. Players should learn to be addaptive rather than taking short cuts.

 

[Kinzer]

If you can't beat Sonic that's your own problem.

Sig material right there.

On-Topic : It's a nice idea, but the problem is not every Wii can be modified.

 

[metaXzero]

Tripping is in the game for a reason. Players should be aware that making a quick or jerky move on the ground could cause them to whiff, and this should enourage them to play differently. Trips can break unfair chaingrabs. They can also be completely avoided by 'focusing more of your game on aerial combat' (something that Sakurai said he was attempting to do). If you don't like tripping then adjust your gameplay to its existance, don't cheat and remove it.

As for the trainer argument...first of all, great post. You covered both sides very completely, which is more than I expect out of random forum-goers. : ) However, I cannot say that I agree with what you're doing here.

Every character in Smash brothers has some sort of weakness and a player's job is to work to cover up that weakness with smart gameplay. PT is different, however, in that his weaknesses do not directly present themselves. Being forced to switch up your gameplay style three or more times per match is a weakness (but it can be a strength if you are proficient because it keeps your opponent on edge). The weaknesses that one poke'mon has are accounted for by the strengths that another has, and vice versa. Hacking the game in that way would effectively remove two-thirds of an entire character. What if I removed Samus' obvious lack of kill power, or removed Ike's landing lag? Both of those examples represent far less than two-thirds of an entire character, and yet you can probably already see how drastic of a change we're talking about here.

If your argument is that this hack does not drastically affect gameplay then I would have to disagree. Players should learn to be addaptive rather than taking short cuts.

Tripping is there to randomly screw you over and make you laugh (which you won't). It doesn't discourage CGs or dashing much because of how few tripping happens. It screws you over randomly, but it happens too few times for it to alter a GOOD players style.

And again, Regular Pokemon trainer is still there.

 

[Deleted member]

Sig material right there.

On-Topic : It's a nice idea, but the problem is not every Wii can be modified.

WRONG!
(phoenix wright here)

 

[ftl]

Some people will never accept hacked Brawl. Some will only accept it if a notable scene develops around it. So arguing in a thread is pretty pointless. If they say it's not feasible, people who believe it is need to show them.

Well, I think it would be way more accepted if it wasn't being actively discouraged by Nintendo.

I've looked at Brawl+, and it's actually a cool idea - I think I'd be all for it... ...if it was at least condoned by Nintendo. But it's not, they actively try to discourage hacks, though not that effectively (yet). And as long as it's being officially discouraged, it's going to remain a pain to get it to people and to convince them that it really is okay and the logistics are going to remain nightmarish.

 

[Revven]

Well, I think it would be way more accepted if it wasn't being actively discouraged by Nintendo.

I've looked at Brawl+, and it's actually a cool idea - I think I'd be all for it... ...if it was at least condoned by Nintendo. But it's not, they actively try to discourage hacks, though not that effectively (yet).

Nintendo's not after the hacks, hell, I doubt they EVEN KNOW about Brawl hacking (they may know about MKWii, but, that's about it). People have reported MKWii wifi hacking since it started and Nintendo doesn't plan to do **** about them, they won't even BAN cheaters instead they ban people with "vulgar" or "non-appropriate" names.

Nintendo's after the piracy involved with the Twilight Hack. That's it, you're entirely mistaken about them being after hacking games. They simply do not care. They didn't do anything to the Action Replay for the Gamecube, this isn't any different. They didn't do anything to all the DS WiFi hacking there is, this isn't any different to that.

Nintendo DOES NOT care about their games being hacked. The only thing they WILL care about is if they are losing money on something, which is exactly what's happening with the piracy that is used with the HBC and/or the Twilight Hack. It WASN'T intentional by the creators of the HBC but, other people found the way to get their own "VC" games onto their Wii and also try and make a backup loader (which actually does exist, called Wii Gator or something).

Point is, again, Nintendo doesn't care about their games being hacked.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sig material right there.

On-Topic : It's a nice idea, but the problem is not every Wii can be modified.

I'll read it both ways.

1. Not everyone will have their wii modded/
2. Not every wii can be modded due to the updates which is false.

 

[Steeler]

you don't need to modify every wii.

keeping fatigue and switching to yourself sounds dumb lol.

 

[pure_awesome]

I'd just like to point out that it's not just a matter of loading the codes onto various Wiis for a tournament.

It's important to be prepared for all characters that you may face in a tournament, so any player who wants to be competitive would, in theory, need to hack his Wii in order to be able to face these "New Characters."

Any player who did not hack his/her Wii would be at a disadvantage, simply because they didn't want to hack their Wii.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I also have no problem with buffing PT, as far as I'm concerned he desperately needs it, as does Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link, and Jigglypuff. Were I rebalancing the game, those 5 characters would be my first choices.

Why don't you fix PT? He needs a buff, and hacking doesn't have a min threshold.

wait...are you being serious?
so you think it's okay to change the game however we want to, buff whoever some random people think should deserve buffs, as long as the community accepts this?
the fact that the majority of the community won't accept this is not the point, the point is that we can't go around randomly changing things in a game, like buff/nerf characters because someone, anyone thinks they "should" be buffed.

in that case, buffing doesn't have a min threshold, i want to buff falco because i main him. is that acceptable? you would say "hell no". well i say "hell no" to buffing PT.


EDIT: my point is, logistics aside, we can't randomly rebalance games because there isn't a clear decision on what we need/want to rebalance. is nerfing MK a rebalance? some would say yes, some would say no. is buffing PT a rebalance? again, some would say yes, some would say no. who gets to decide what gets rebalanced? this is why the community cannot make these kinds of decisions, like you stated in your earlier, sirlin was able to fix whatever he felt like because he was a game deisgner, therefore he could do "whatever he felt like".

 

[Steeler]

well, the point of this isn't to buff PT in the first place, so we are off topic in that respect.

but the point is that if we were ever to approach the topic of balancing characters in brawl...you would need community acceptance and agreement on who and what to buff.

in that regard, it's pretty clear who the worst characters are. :s

 

[metaXzero]

As said, we can't look at this as buffing PT unless we want to buff other characters. As such, regular PT shouldn't benefit from the No Fatigue hack

EDIT: Also, what Steeler said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

wait...are you being serious?
so you think it's okay to change the game however we want to, buff whoever some random people think should deserve buffs, as long as the community accepts this?
the fact that the majority of the community won't accept this is not the point, the point is that we can't go around randomly changing things in a game, like buff/nerf characters because someone, anyone thinks they "should" be buffed.

in that case, buffing doesn't have a min threshold, i want to buff falco because i main him. is that acceptable? you would say "hell no". well i say "hell no" to buffing PT.

Out of context dude.


It's logistically UNVIABLE, which is the reason why it should never be and will never be the competitive standard.

Even if we do somehow manage to make this the tournament standard, it would be prohibitive for new players entering into the competitive team.



Yes, we could buff Falco, but if it was viable to actually do this (say I was on the nintendo dev team and we were gonna patch the game, or I was a hacker developing for a niche scene a la Brawl+), Falco would not be an immediate priority because he's already quite effective in the current metagame. PT isn't and is therefore, would be an immediate priority were this the case (after Captain Falcon and Ganondorf of course), and I doubt he'd be anyone else's priority either (unless other stuff unintentionally nerfed him). Again, this is simply because he's already good.



But that said, again it's not logistically viable, so it would be stupid to establish this as the standard.

How many "ban" threads have you been in with me? You should know my views tend to be very nuanced.

EDIT: my point is, logistics aside, we can't randomly rebalance games because there isn't a clear decision on what we need/want to rebalance. is nerfing MK a rebalance? some would say yes, some would say no. is buffing PT a rebalance? again, some would say yes, some would say no. who gets to decide what gets rebalanced? this is why the community cannot make these kinds of decisions, like you stated in your earlier, sirlin was able to fix whatever he felt like because he was a game deisgner, therefore he could do "whatever he felt like".

ANY change is the game is functionally a rebalance.

Regardless, what ends up happening is the result of hacking/patching is essentially a slightly different game. For that reason, the hackers/patchers ARE the design team.

That means they can do whatever they want, and in tournaments where their hacks/patches are being used, that would be the standard.

Of course, unless they're a mainstream designer, they're dealing with a niche community, so their best option is to do as good a job as possible, BUT they are limited only by their abilities, and if they screw up, it won't get played. Just like any other game designer.

 

[typh]

stupid idea

 

[XxBlackxX]

Yes, we could buff Falco, but if it was viable to actually do this (say I was on the nintendo dev team and we were gonna patch the game, or I was a hacker developing for a niche scene a la Brawl+), Falco would not be an immediate priority because he's already quite effective in the current metagame. PT isn't and is therefore, would be an immediate priority were this the case (after Captain Falcon and Ganondorf of course), and I doubt he'd be anyone else's priority either (unless other stuff unintentionally nerfed him). Again, this is simply because he's already good.

yes. i agree that falco doesn't need a buff. thing is though, WHO gets to decide who needs a buff and who doesn't? that the point i made was about how we as a community can't go around randomly rebalancing the game. you think PT needs a buff. someone else doesn't. what happens then? unless we can have VERY objective standards for rebalancing, it just won't work. not to mention, if we ever did buff/nerf characters, it would be a changed game and not brawl anymore.

But that said, again it's not logistically viable, so it would be stupid to establish this as the standard.

correct.

Regardless, what ends up happening is the result of hacking/patching is essentially a slightly different game. For that reason, the hackers/patchers ARE the design team.

That means they can do whatever they want, and in tournaments where their hacks/patches are being used, that would be the standard.

Of course, unless they're a mainstream designer, they're dealing with a niche community, so their best option is to do as good a job as possible, BUT they are limited only by their abilities, and if they screw up, it won't get played. Just like any other game designer.

yes, essentially, if this hack was incorporated, brawl would be a changed game. for the better? who knows. but CHANGED, and no one can deny that. so yes, if they want to include this in brawl+, go for it, but to add it to regular brawl seems....unnecessary, to say the least.