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yes. i agree that falco doesn't need a buff. thing is though, WHO gets to decide who needs a buff and who doesn't? that the point i made was about how we as a community can't go around randomly rebalancing the game. you think PT needs a buff. someone else doesn't. what happens then? unless we can have VERY objective standards for rebalancing, it just won't work. not to mention, if we ever did buff/nerf characters, it would be a changed game and not brawl anymore.
And therein lies the rub of the topic, it would be nice, but if it can't be made the standard for practical reasons, it doesn't matter.
yes, essentially, if this hack was incorporated, brawl would be a changed game. for the better? who knows. but CHANGED, and no one can deny that. so yes, if they want to include this in brawl+, go for it, but to add it to regular brawl seems....unnecessary, to say the least.
Well, that's the major advantage of community testing, we can test things out and make changes.
So, a better game, this combined with other things that we can test as a community would definitely make it a better competitive game (since that's an objective criteria).
Wishes for the game aside, it's nonviable for practical reasons, but probably nice for brawl+.
i think this is one of the, if not the most, viable hacks because of the fact that it isn't buffing an existing character while creating three "new" options, and is not needed on all Wii's (unlike tripping).
Yes, it creates a certain difference in matchups but for the vast majority of the roster, it doesn't matter. Players should already be familiar with these characters. Yeah you can't stall the player out like you can PT but...lol. I don't think being forced to actually play the Pokemon should be a problem.
Unless you are Ness I guess, idk. :s Which can still force Charizard to approach regardless.
Except it is a buff
The fatigue system is a weakness, it is something that hinders each pokemon as well as the forced switch.
Removing it gives them more options, which means they get better, which means they are being buffed.
Even if you call them separate you are still removing something that was originally in the game as part of their opriginal design and to hinder their capability.
Let alone the fact that why is it okay to adjust these characters and not the others?
Except it is a buff
The fatigue system is a weakness, it is something that hinders each pokemon as well as the forced switch.
Removing it gives them more options, which means they get better, which means they are being buffed.
Even if you call them separate you are still removing something that was originally in the game as part of their opriginal design and to hinder their capability.
Let alone the fact that why is it okay to adjust these characters and not the others?
Except PT himself isn't fighting its the pokemon themselves that are benefitting.
If you mean PT as in the usage of all three pokemon, they do benefit because they no longer have to worry about the fatigue system itself.
As seperate characters they don't suffer the forced switch and aren't fatigued either.
Also this is not comparable to the tripping hack.
Tripping in itself is completely random and the tripping hack is universal itself.
All characters have the same chance of tripping and its extremely gay (personal opinion on the gay part)
This hack is specific to that character. It sucks they have to even deal with fatigue or a forced switch but thats how the cookie crumbles.
Except PT himself isn't fighting its the pokemon themselves that are benefitting.
If you mean PT as in the usage of all three pokemon, they do benefit because they no longer have to worry about the fatigue system itself.
As seperate characters they don't suffer the forced switch and aren't fatigued either.
Also this is not comparable to the tripping hack.
Tripping in itself is completely random and the tripping hack is universal itself.
All characters have the same chance of tripping and its extremely gay (personal opinion on the gay part)
This hack is specific to that character. It sucks they have to even deal with fatigue or a forced switch but thats how the cookie crumbles.
WHAT I MEAN is that PT (As in all 3 Pokemon with the ability to switch) should still suffer under the Fatigue system. That way, it's not buffing PT. Unless you would want that the Ant-Fatigue hack not be in use AT ALL on the off chance that this individual PKM were used.
And this is similar to the no-tripping discussion where in, this would be a nice, non-damaging hack to have, but for logistics reasons can't.
WHAT I MEAN is that PT (As in all 3 Pokemon with the ability to switch) should still suffer under the Fatigue system. That way, it's not buffing PT. Unless you would want that the Ant-Fatigue hack not be in use AT ALL on the off chance that this individual PKM were used.
And this is similar to the no-tripping discussion where in, this would be a nice, non-damaging hack to have, but for logistics reasons can't.
But the individual pokemon are still getting a buff which I also pointed out. Moving on fromtit and to the logistics (I like to move one bit at a time), yes it cannot be used.
Primarily it can also suffer from the whole slippery slope.
I think hacks that are more universal like L canceling , no tripping etc could be used in theory because they don't create such a large issue. >_>
Yes I would like no tripping to be a competitive standard since its god awful to have tripping at all
Except it is a buff
The fatigue system is a weakness, it is something that hinders each pokemon as well as the forced switch.
Removing it gives them more options, which means they get better, which means they are being buffed.
Even if you call them separate you are still removing something that was originally in the game as part of their opriginal design and to hinder their capability.
Let alone the fact that why is it okay to adjust these characters and not the others?
I am the guy who tried pitching the idea of balancing Meta Knight by removing his B moves. So trust me when I say the characters are not equal when it comes to re-balancing and it is more justifiable on some characters more than others.
Though I do agree with you on the other points you make. Just adding my .02.
But the individual pokemon are still getting a buff which I also pointed out. Moving on fromtit and to the logistics (I like to move one bit at a time), yes it cannot be used.
Primarily it can also suffer from the whole slippery slope.
I think hacks that are more universal like L canceling , no tripping etc could be used in theory because they don't create such a large issue. >_>
Yes I would like no tripping to be a competitive standard since its god awful to have tripping at all
From what I'm getting now, the possible slippery slope effect stems from the Anti-Fatigue hack (even if limited to individual Pokemon, it's still a character buff). Without that, this goes back to just adding 3 characters.
L-canceling suffers from the problem of drastically altering the game into something else though (no-tripping doesn't due to it's rarity).
From what I'm getting now, the possible slippery slope effect stems from the Anti-Fatigue hack (even if limited to individual Pokemon, it's still a character buff). Without that, this goes back to just adding 3 characters.
L-canceling suffers from the problem of drastically altering the game into something else though (no-tripping doesn't due to it's rarity).
Well why should we add 3 characters? Does that not also change the game from oits original design?
L canceling is awesome. NO logic can denounce its awesomeness.
Everyone should use L canceling and no tripping hacks, oh and music hacks and texture hacks too.
stamina is there to force you to switch more, and there's no point to that if you can't switch.
if you want to keep stamina for solo pokemon, then...it would be interesting as just something the character has to deal with (switching isn't much of a problem), but switching to yourself to keep stamina up seems a little silly.
Well why should we add 3 characters? Does that not also change the game from oits original design?
L canceling is awesome. NO logic can denounce its awesomeness.
Everyone should use L canceling and no tripping hacks, oh and music hacks and texture hacks too.
From a gameplay standpoint, L-canceling changes the game drastically. 3 "new" characters doesn't change the gameplay.[/quyote]
That is true but the thing is that because it is a universal creation, it couldn't be said nto be arbitrary or playing favoritism.
>_>
3 new characters are annoying. THen again ROB is not even a character...
Maybe delete ROB and put in the three as aseperate then delete PT himself...
I need a new CSS
That is true but the thing is that because it is a universal creation, it couldn't be said nto be arbitrary or playing favoritism.
>_>
3 new characters are annoying. THen again ROB is not even a character...
Maybe delete ROB and put in the three as aseperate then delete PT himself...
I need a new CSS
Aaah yeah. Someone could argue favortism and catering (but unlike actual buffing, I can't think of a similar circumstances which can lead to a slippery slope).
Q_Q
.....But I like ROB (not as a character, as a playable tool). And someone likes regular PT (I think?) lol
I support this 100%. It sucks for people that say, love how Squirtle plays, and are great with him, but absolutely fail with the other two can now actually do well in tournaments. PT is horrid now, the 2 minute thing and the forced switch both suck and those drag him down.
I don't see the downside of this other than it being a hack, and I think it would turn way more people on to PT now. All for it!
games should be patched
as a set example starcraft was patched heavily in the beginning by creating custom maps to balance the game thenl blizzard caved in and started patching it themselves.
this created probably the most fair game and more successful title for competetive gaming in all existance
I do not disagree with the PT hacks at all. 3 new characters dont hurt especially if they could provide good competition. Who really gives a crap if that wasnt the initial intention. The simple existance of tripping shows that it wasnt meant to be competitive (its even been admitted) The only disadvantages I see would be the difficulty of integration (due to homebrew channel) but if local TOs want to use it if possible then i would be all for it.
Well why should we add 3 characters? Does that not also change the game from oits original design?
L canceling is awesome. NO logic can denounce its awesomeness.
Everyone should use L canceling and no tripping hacks, oh and music hacks and texture hacks too.
If you want more hacks, you can have a watered down version of the hitstun hack. Just delete the part that disables air dodging and attacking and keep the extra hitstun so that DDD and Falos CGs are gone without side affects to the "combo" game
Not really, there we were dealing with an attempt to add rules to the tournament that the game doesn't know. That has a very high standard to apply because it's not a fine adjustment.
Here we're dealing with attempting to redefine the game itself. Because it's a very fine adjustment there are no rules for what can and cannot be changed. However, because of logistical problems it can never be the standard.
Except PT himself isn't fighting its the pokemon themselves that are benefitting.
If you mean PT as in the usage of all three pokemon, they do benefit because they no longer have to worry about the fatigue system itself.
As seperate characters they don't suffer the forced switch and aren't fatigued either.
Also this is not comparable to the tripping hack.
Tripping in itself is completely random and the tripping hack is universal itself.
All characters have the same chance of tripping and its extremely gay (personal opinion on the gay part)
This hack is specific to that character. It sucks they have to even deal with fatigue or a forced switch but thats how the cookie crumbles.
But the individual pokemon are still getting a buff which I also pointed out. Moving on fromtit and to the logistics (I like to move one bit at a time), yes it cannot be used.
Primarily it can also suffer from the whole slippery slope.
I think hacks that are more universal like L canceling , no tripping etc could be used in theory because they don't create such a large issue. >_>
Yes I would like no tripping to be a competitive standard since its god awful to have tripping at all
Redefining the game itself via patching and hacks has no minimum criteria to be met. If somebody wanted to make a version of the game that somehow makes PT Akuma tier, the competitively viable.
Why? Because unlike banning, hacking and patching can account for fine balance, and the community can merely accept or reject the game/version based on it's merits.
For that reason, slippery slope isn't an issue. Wanna make another change, why not? Why not give Falco's up-b two random frames of invincibility, why not make Ganondorf's fair auto-cancel from short-hop height?
The caveat is, no matter what the hack, it can never become the competitive standard, because of the logistical issue. It doesn't matter what the hack is, no tripping, wavedashing, PT buffs, anything. If it forces console players to hack their games it just logistically is impossible to apply, that's why Playing to Win discourages it's use.
It requires everyone who plays to use the hack (the mechanism for which may cause outside issues) because otherwise they wouldn't be able to do match-ups with these characters correctly, practice with them, or use them in friendlies. This is especially prohibitive for new players.
So no slippery slope, because anything is valid to change, but ultimately no hack is viable because of logistics.
Well why should we add 3 characters? Does that not also change the game from oits original design?
L canceling is awesome. NO logic can denounce its awesomeness.
Everyone should use L canceling and no tripping hacks, oh and music hacks and texture hacks too.
None of which can become the standard for logistical reasons. However, niche tournaments using them are cool.
Regardless, L canceling is not awesome. However you know what's even less awesome? Having the full landing lag that we have in Brawl.
L canceling is a pass/fail mechanic because no benefit is derived from failure, having it as a conscious mechanic adds nothing to depth, therefore it's pointless to have it done like that. Just halve all move's landing lag.
Obviously, the low landing definitely adds depth (hence why l canceling >full landing lag), but making it pass/fail is pointless.
Aaah yeah. Someone could argue favortism and catering (but unlike actual buffing, I can't think of a similar circumstances which can lead to a slippery slope).
first of, has any of the people that are severly against brawl+ actually tried the hacks, since otherwise you are just saying "this game doesn't work" while you haven't even bought it yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to try it
We're not against Brawl+ being a tournament standard because it's less balance than Base Brawl/Worse than Base Brawl/Less fun than Base Brawl/doesn't work or whatever.
We never said anything of the sort. We're against Brawl+ because it's a hacked *******ization that has been rewritten to fit the ideal image of some people. If Brawl is so unplayable you have to hack it, why not just play another game (like, say, Melee)? After all, half of the stuck that Brawl+ has is stuff that was in Melee. Are you just fanboys desperate to be able to play as, say, D3 and Meta Knight?
If Brawl isn't so broken one has to hack it to make it playable Competitively, then why hack it? I'm against hacking in Competitive play. I don't care if the hacked version is better.
-We are already fixing the game which can be argued as not playing it the way it was meant to be played. Items are stupid, we have the option to turn them off, so we do. 75m is ridiculous, we have the option to not play on it, so we dont.
Creator's intent is not a valid argument. No one cares what Sakurai wants. Adversely, anti-Creator's intent doesn't work in this debate either.
Sakurai gave us the option to turn items off. He wants us to be able to play Brawl the way we want to play it, within certain limits. Thus, we're free to turn off certain stages and items. However, we didn't have to hack the game to do this.
Playing with fatigue on is not Creator's Intent (as in "How Sakurai wants us to play the game"), it is "Creator's gift" ("What Sakurai gave us and what we're stuck with").
There are plenty of other things that many would construe as "wrong" about the game, such as Pokemon Trainer stuff, slipping (it's technically called slipping, not tripping. thx dojo lol), MetaKnight (lol jk), various loading times between switching Zelda/Sheik and PT. If we had the option to take these things out, then we should be able to like the options to change stages and items are available.
If there were options in the game to do this, sure. Hacking? No. No, we will not hack the game to make Meta Knight less imbalanced. The mere fact that you are already suggesting this show what a slippery slope this will become and how far you will go to rewrite the game in your own image.
You are making PT/the individual Pokémon better, yet you aren't doing this for other characters. So, in order to justify this, we'd have to start adjusting other characters to make them better. And that would be idiotic.
I TL;DR:ed every post after that. If there was a post in there that I should take a look at, please give me the URL to it.
i agree that unlike banning, "fixing" does not have such strict requirements but...you seem to think we can change anything we feel like changing, that is just....wrong.
the thing is, slippery slope DOES indeed apply. okay, in this particular hack, they plan to buff PT. why PT? why not CF, Ganon, Jiggs, or (insert character name here)?
why? because they felt like it. that's a big problem. like i said, what if i feel like buffing falco? sure, he doesn't need a buff, but i feel like it. so who gets to decide who gets buffed or not? me? you? the sbr? you answered this with "the design team", and by that you mean nintendo right?
we as a community do not make those kind of decisions, if sakurai wants to re-release brawl with this added, or MK nerfed, or infinites gone, or falcon high tier, then we deal with it.
EDIT: if by "design team" you did mean the developers, then i would agree.
L canceling is a pass/fail mechanic because no benefit is derived from failure, having it as a conscious mechanic adds nothing to depth, therefore it's pointless to have it done like that. Just halve all move's landing lag.
Most characters don't rteally suffer too greatly if they fail to use the L cancel, ( a good number of moves end before landing to begin with) so its not an issue.
I'll have to get back to this argument later but i agree with most of what you said thus far.
I do think its more complication in terms of rebalancing things, I just have no good argument yet to back it up.
Actually now that I think about it, slippery slope would indeed apply.
This hack improves those characters correct SO why not improve the other characters? If we improve those characters, why not the others?
Considering it is difficult to dictate how to balance the characters, any attempt to do so would open the way to a slippery slope would it not?
Yuna. Brawl+ will never be Melee (especially with Melee Air-dodge not being used) and their isn't another game out there we could just play instead of Brawl+.
And yes, some of us are sorta of fanboys in that we play Brawl+ due to characters not in Melee/sucking in Melee.
EDIT: Without the fatigue hack, this is adding 3 characters instead of buffing an existing them or an existing one. Slippery slope of buffing other characters doesn't really apply.
Yuna. Brawl+ will never be Melee (especially with Melee Air-dodge not being used) and their isn't another game out there we could just play instead of Brawl+.
And yes, some of us are sorta of fanboys in that we play Brawl+ due to characters not in Melee/sucking in Melee.
Yuna. Brawl+ will never be Melee (especially with Melee Air-dodge not being used) and their isn't another game out there we could just play instead of Brawl+.
I didn't say Brawl+ is Melee. I said many of the changes in Brawl+ when compared to Base Brawl were changes which bring Brawl closer to what Melee was.
EDIT: Without the fatigue hack, this is adding 3 characters instead of buffing an existing them or an existing one. Slippery slope of buffing other characters doesn't really apply.
How is it not buffing PT in the least? Before, PT had one glaring flaw. It was impossible to main PT and using primarily or exclusively one single character.
With the hack, he no longer has that flaw. You are both adding 3 "new characters" and buffing the old PT.
I didn't say Brawl+ is Melee. I said many of the changes in Brawl+ when compared to Base Brawl were changes which bring Brawl closer to what Melee was.
This is Competitive gaming, not Fanboy Junction.
How is it not buffing PT in the least? Before, PT had one glaring flaw. It was impossible to main PT and using primarily or exclusively one single character.
With the hack, he no longer has that flaw. You are both adding 3 "new characters" and buffing the old PT.
64 had some of the stuff Brawl+ has too (lag-less edges, Lag-canceling (Albeit, Brawl+ is automatic), shieldstun, hitstun, etc.). Yet everyone acts like those are Melee exclusive.
Brawl+ can still be played competitively regardless (unless something stupid breaks the game).
The "no forced switch" hack makes the Pokemon their own characters, that's it. They still play the same as when they were the PT trio. What seperates them from PT is that you are now only one Pokemon. PT is EXACTLY the same with no buffs. Buffing either individual Pokemon or PT would be the "removing Fatigue system" hack.
64 had some of the stuff Brawl+ has too (lag-less edges, Lag-canceling (Albeit, Brawl+ is automatic), shieldstun, hitstun, etc.). Yet everyone acts like those are Melee exclusive.
Call it whatever you want. The Brawl+ hacks are mostly designed to bring Brawl+ closer to Melee and SSB64. If you're so desperate to get the "old" mechanics back, to play the old games.
I will never support Brawl+ being a tournament standard or pay money to participate in a Brawl+ tournaments myself. It goes against my Competitive ideology to do so (I do not, however, mind if people want to hold Brawl+ tournaments of their own, what do I care?).
I don't care if they turn it into art, if it becomes the best fighting game the world has ever seen.
No, because now you can play only one Pokémon instead of having to play as all 3 at some point in the game. There is nothing preventing you from maining Squirtle (or any of the other two) in Base Brawl, you only suffer the downsides of fatigue and respawning as the next Pokémon in line whenever you die.
With this Brawl+ hack, you no longer suffer those downsides. Thus, you are both adding 3 separate characters and buffing the old PT at the same time.
What seperates them from PT is that you are now only one Pokemon. PT is EXACTLY the same with no buffs. Buffing either individual Pokemon or PT would be the "removing Fatigue system" hack.
And even if this wasn't buffing PT, it is still re-balancing in the game. You are adding 3 new characters. Each character will have to contend with all of these 3, thus, the tiers will shift (not that Brawl+ hasn't already fudged up the tier list).
It is still a hack, something I will never support.
No Tripping actually does hurt the metagame in a way. Not all characters are hit equally by tripping because some characters rely less on dashing than others, thus, No Tripping helps those who rely on dashing more.
There's actually very little that can be done with hacking that won't "hurt the metagame" in some way.
Yuna can you actually point me to a post of your where you say WHY you're against changing the game?
Looking through your posts, all I can find is basically just is "It's hacking, so it's BAD! It's just NOT DONE! We just DON'T!" without reasoning.
There've been a bunch of posts which went into what I think is good reason why hacks aren't viable, which is that, given the fact that they're not condoned by nintendo, getting a hacked version onto a Wii is always going to be enough of a pain that none but the really committed are ever going to care to do it. (Requiring SD card, Twilight Princess, or whatever else it'll require once they fix the TP bug). Logistically, it's a nightmare for TOs and a big deterrent to players.
I can see the logistics issue - that's been pointed out many times, that unless it's supported or at least condoned by Nintendo in some way it's too much of a hassle. I agree with that, and so I don't really disagree with your conclusions... but I really haven't seen your reasoning. Is that it, the logistics?
Or if not, what other differences do you see between unofficial hacks and official patches? ...or are you against games being patched officially as well?
No Tripping actually does hurt the metagame in a way. Not all characters are hit equally by tripping because some characters rely less on dashing than others, thus, No Tripping helps those who rely on dashing more.
There's actually very little that can be done with hacking that won't "hurt the metagame" in some way.
I don't know. It's not like I stay up all night thinking up ways to hack the game that would not "hurt the metagame" in any way.
"No Tripping" makes dashing more viable. Characters with fast dashes and who dash a lot hurt less from this than characters with slow dashes and those who don't dash that much, anyway. The tiers might shift from this.
So we'd have to find a hack was universal and didn't only affect a single character (or certain characters)(No Fatigue) and the hack must also affect everyone equally (No Tripping) and otherwise play no great role in changing how the game works in general (No Tripping, since now we'll be dashing more).
