Allowing No Fatigue/No Forced Switch PT Hacks in Tourney Play

[metaXzero]

Possible Double-Post.

Call it whatever you want. The Brawl+ hacks are mostly designed to bring Brawl+ closer to Melee and SSB64. If you're so desperate to get the "old" mechanics back, to play the old games.


I will never support Brawl+ being a tournament standard or pay money to participate in a Brawl+ tournaments myself. It goes against my Competitive ideology to do so (I do not, however, mind if people want to hold Brawl+ tournaments of their own, what do I care?).

I don't care if they turn it into art, if it becomes the best fighting game the world has ever seen.


No, it also makes PT better!


No, because now you can play only one Pokémon instead of having to play as all 3 at some point in the game. There is nothing preventing you from maining Squirtle (or any of the other two) in Base Brawl, you only suffer the downsides of fatigue and respawning as the next Pokémon in line whenever you die.

With this Brawl+ hack, you no longer suffer those downsides. Thus, you are both adding 3 separate characters and buffing the old PT at the same time.


And even if this wasn't buffing PT, it is still re-balancing in the game. You are adding 3 new characters. Each character will have to contend with all of these 3, thus, the tiers will shift (not that Brawl+ hasn't already fudged up the tier list).

It is still a hack, something I will never support.

Again, Brawl+ will never be Melee (or 64 for that matter). Introducing near universal mechanics of Smash (until Brawl removed them) will not suddenly make Brawl+ "Melee 2.0" or "SSB64 2.0".

Yes, Yuna. I know already know you don't (and probably will never) accept the thought of hacks in competitive gaming.

Regular PT is still there with no changes.

So you can do something like "main Squirtle, secondairy PT" if you want. The fact is PT is unchanged. To buff PT is to change the attributes of the Pokemon while retaining the whole "3 Pokemon that switch out in battle" mechanic. By removing the switching out mechanic and leaving them as one Pokemon, they are no longer PT.

EDIT: Yuna. Tripping doesn't happen enough (in the worst possible time) to alter playstyles like that. The benefits of dashing outway the detriments of tripping to the point where tripping is never on a players mind until that every blue moon where someone trips into Ike's F-Smash.

 

[Brinzy]

What PT's match-ups currently look like:

What it could easily turn out to be:

For those that have two or even all three Pokemon with the same ratio vs. that character, just pick the one you're best with.

This is what it looks like to me.

 

[Yuna]

Regular PT is still there with no changes.

You can now main Base PT or main Brawl+ PT. It depends on how you look a things.

I look at the No Fatigue/No Forced Switch hack as both "adding" 3 separate characters and changing a single character.

 

[Deleted member]

that chart says nothing, that would be like you could always pick the best option, which is not the case.
ideal counterpicking would be 90% MK anyway.

also the no fatigue etc codes are not used by more than 1/4th of the brawl+ community so they might as well no get in. the press R for independent is more viable to get in.

 

[Brinzy]

that chart says nothing, that would be like you could always pick the best option, which is not the case.
.

Why would you even say something so ridiculous? It doesn't say anything? Are you pretending to be dense or something?

PT mains can now remove their worst parts of the fight with ease. Who cares if you can't "always" do it? When you play PT, you pretty much always have to bring out all three Pokemon, meaning you're always going to have at least one of them being problematic for your team. This removes that issue almost completely.

 

[Yuna]

Why would you even say something so ridiculous? It doesn't say anything? Are you pretending to be dense or something?

PT mains can now remove their worst parts of the fight with ease.

Exactly. PT mains can now pick and choose to either use Base PT and mix all 3 movesets together or go to with the separate Pokémons without ever having to switch for certain match-ups. It is, in essence, buffing Base PT.

 

[metaXzero]

You can now main Base PT or main Brawl+ PT. It depends on how you look a things.

I look at the No Fatigue/No Forced Switch hack as both "adding" 3 separate characters and changing a single character.

Hmm...we look at things differently.

Character-wise, I see no buffs (I'm assuming No Fatigue hack ISN'T in use since sadly, that's technically a buff to the individual Pokemon that would lead to that nasty slippery slope).

Player-wise though, I can kinda see what you are getting (I think?). However, I just can't see similar circumstances in the game that could lead to a slippery slope (maybe if Zelda/Sheik were also under the Forced Switch system or something, but that's not the case).

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know. It's not like I stay up all night thinking up ways to hack the game that would not "hurt the metagame" in any way.

"No Tripping" makes dashing more viable. Characters with fast dashes and who dash a lot hurt less from this than characters with slow dashes and those who don't dash that much, anyway. The tiers might shift from this.

So we'd have to find a hack was universal and didn't only affect a single character (or certain characters)(No Fatigue) and the hack must also affect everyone equally (No Tripping) and otherwise play no great role in changing how the game works in general (No Tripping, since now we'll be dashing more).

okay then let me ask you a question then.
We have the mean to input L canceling into the game.
However L canceling will benefit the slower characters of course because it halves lag time.

In melee we had L canceling which performed the same function.
While characters were not affected equally, the ability was still universal.

So what is the difference between the two other than one being a part of the game initially and one being the result of a cheat even though the function of them is the same.

Mainly because it doesn't appear necessary to benefit all characters the sam e provided that the ability is still made available for all the characters. That way, none can be viewed as being declared as playing favoritism since it would still be a result of character design being the base rather than the character being individually tinkered with.
Just curious you don't have to answer this post if you do not want to.

 

[Bleep]

This wouldn't be like a buff so much as a seperation. The reason we can do this for PT and not other low tiers is buffing them would be giving them things like more knockback, more damage output, better physics, etc. In this case all we're doing is separating 3 characters who will play the exact same (fatigue aside) so they don't hold each other back.

 

[.AC.]

hacks involving changing or altering gameplay shouldnt be in tourney play.

 

[Rockin]

Getting rid of something that focuses all characters is one thing.

Getting rid of something that only affects one character is like buffing them up/making them stronger.

 

[Yuna]

Player-wise though, I can kinda see what you are getting (I think?). However, I just can't see similar circumstances in the game that could lead to a slippery slope (maybe if Zelda/Sheik were also under the Forced Switch system or something, but that's not the case).

We're artifically buffing a character by hacking the game. It will be opening the floodgates to artifically buffing characters through hacks. It doesn't have to be a similar hack.

And if we don't start buffing more characters through hacks, then we're doing this arbitrarily. That would also be wrong. So either stick to it and stop hacking the game full force or suck it up and don't buff this one character just for the heck of it.

So what is the difference between the two other than one being a part of the game initially and one being the result of a cheat even though the function of them is the same.

Because one game has it while we're hacking the other to rewrite the game in our own *******ized image.

If you're so obsessed with making a fighting game in your own image, go program your own.

 

[Brinzy]

The reason we can do this for PT and not other low tiers is buffing them would be giving them things like more knockback, more damage output, better physics, etc. In this case all we're doing is separating 3 characters who will play the exact same (fatigue aside) so they don't hold each other back.

But why is this different!?

Why is it unacceptable to buff damage and knockback but it's ok to remove PT's key weakness? That's like removing Pichu's affliction.

 

[Tornadith]

Meh. Some people like the auto-switch. I actually kind of like it because I go:

Squirtle - Starting pokemon (light character so I switch at about 40%)
Ivysaur - Switched at 40%. Good middle game (middle weight character so I switch about 80%)
Charizard - Last pokemon. Switched at 80%. Good for killing and taking damage at high percentages.

Then when I die, I start it all over without having to worry about being vulnerable b/c of the switch.

 

[ftl]

Because one game has it while we're hacking the other to rewrite the game in our own *******ized image.

If you're so obsessed with making a fighting game in your own image, go program your own.

I'll repeat my question, since I guess Yuna missed it the first time. Or is ignoring me. But someone else asked something similar, and I like my phrasing better.


Yuna can you actually point me to a post of your where you say WHY you're against changing the game?

Looking through your posts, all I can find is basically just is "It's hacking, so it's BAD! It's just NOT DONE! We just DON'T!" without reasoning.

There've been a bunch of posts which went into what I think is good reason why hacks aren't viable, which is that, given the fact that they're not condoned by nintendo, getting a hacked version onto a Wii is always going to be enough of a pain that none but the really committed are ever going to care to do it. (Requiring SD card, Twilight Princess, or whatever else it'll require once they fix the TP bug). Logistically, it's a nightmare for TOs and a big deterrent to players.

I can see the logistics issue - that's been pointed out many times, that unless it's supported or at least condoned by Nintendo in some way it's too much of a hassle. I agree with that, and so I don't really disagree with your conclusions... but I really haven't seen your reasoning. Is that it, the logistics? But you seem to have a very strong idealogical dislike of it, not just 'way too much of a pain to be worth the meager gains.'

Or if not just logistics, what other differences do you see between unofficial hacks and official patches or expansions or however you want to look at it? ...or are you against games being patched/expanded officially as well?

 

[Brinzy]

Meh. Some people like the auto-switch. I actually kind of like it because I go:

Squirtle - Starting pokemon (light character so I switch at about 40%)
Ivysaur - Switched at 40%. Good middle game (middle weight character so I switch about 80%)
Charizard - Last pokemon. Switched at 80%. Good for killing and taking damage at high percentages.

Then when I die, I start it all over without having to worry about being vulnerable b/c of the switch.

This was probably the way PT was intended to be played (though that doesn't matter).

 

[Tornadith]

This was probably the way PT was intended to be played (though that doesn't matter).

Yeah that's what I think whenever I play PT.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna can you actually point me to a post of your where you say WHY you're against changing the game?

It is a philosophical view.

You can hack your game as much as you want. You can hold your hacked tournaments. I just won't support them or attend them and I will fight you to my dying breath to prevent Brawl+ from becoming the tournament standard.

Either a game isn't worth playing Competitively unlesss we hack it (and if so, we shouldn't be playing it Competitively in the first place) or it's just fine without hacking (in which case we don't have to hack it).

 

[metaXzero]

We're artifically buffing a character by hacking the game. It will be opening the floodgates to artifically buffing characters through hacks. It doesn't have to be a similar hack.

And if we don't start buffing more characters through hacks, then we're doing this arbitrarily. That would also be wrong. So either stick to it and stop hacking the game full force or suck it up and don't buff this one character just for the heck of it.


Because one game has it while we're hacking the other to rewrite the game in our own *******ized image.

If you're so obsessed with making a fighting game in your own image, go program your own.

But why is this different!?

Why is it unacceptable to buff damage and knockback but it's ok to remove PT's key weakness? That's like removing Pichu's affliction.

@Yuna

PT is the same with his "inability to indefinetely stay as one PKM" weakness still present in PT. Individual PKM are not PT and as such aren't a buff to it. As long as that's the case, this can't go to the stage of buffing other characters.

And Yuna, WHO here can even make their own fighting game (let alone a Smash-style one) FROM SCRATCH?

@Raphael (you mind that?).

PT still has that key weakness. Individual Pkm lack it, but they're technically not PT since they are completely incapable of being another Pkm.

EDIT: Ehhhh Yuna? I respect your view on hacking in competitive gaming. But the thing is, their is no movement for Brawl+ to become the tourney standard. It'll just be its own little scene. That's how those in tweaking Brawl+ feel anyway...

 

[.AC.]

Getting rid of something that focuses all characters is one thing.

Getting rid of something that only affects one character is like buffing them up/making them stronger.

is there anything that affects all characters that needs to get rid of?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Sigh.

I'm absolutely against this, along with all hacks, as becoming the standard.

Why?

First is the very nature of hacks. It's simply to much power. If every single one of us could be the developer of any game we were handed then you bet your *** we would all improve it in ways we see fit. If we had the same tools in Melee back in 2006 that we have in Brawl I bet we would see a bunch of topics like:
Lets make is so Pichu doesn't damage himself!
Lets make is so Sheik can't CG half the cast by messing with the weight/knockback of the game!
Lets make is so the Ice Climbers can't wobble!
Lets cut the frames of all of Bowser's moves in half!

Any game every made in the history of the entire planet can be made better/different. Hacking a game isn't saying that the previous game sucked, its simply admitting that anything can be improved. Halo 1 could be made better with hacks. Melee could be made better with hacks. I'm sure someone could find something stupid about FF7 and hack the game to make it better. However, the problem is, if you actually do make your game better/different, you have to find a way to get not just hundreds, or thousands, but instead millions of people to play it.

Brawl has globally sold 8 million copies. That is a lot. Any single person who buys a copy of Brawl can look up the rules and in an instant be able to practice/play in a tournament. The same cannot be said of hacked Brawl.

It goes beyond that though-in order for competitive Brawl to be viable/interesting to the casual players (to attract new players) we need to be playing a game they can easily access. On top of this though, in order for the Brawl community to be attractive to sponsors (even Nintendo) and leagues (MLG) we need to be using the original game-not a hacked version (this should be for obvious reasons-including image and legal).

Finally, once you start hacking something its hard to say where to stop. As I said in first paragraph it is to much power. It is easily possible, and is already starting to happen, where there are competing hacks and people disagreeing on things like hit-stun (OMG HOW MUCH DO WE WANT!). It doesn't end with disagreement though, its entirelly possible that, after hacking the game, you discover that something you did actually made the game WORSE, then suddenly you have a problem on your hand-do you hack the game more to undo this new problem, or do you remove the previous hack? This problem is coupled with the fact that, at large, there are only a few people (less than 50-100) that actually have hacked Wii's, meaning that the chance of actually looking deep into the hacked game and how everything is changed will take a long time. It took 8 months for people to find Diddy Kong's single nana lock. 8 million copies sold and it took 8 months to find something as simply as short hop + down on the C-stick twice.

In relation to just the PT hack: its a buff. It is clearly a buff. PT is ONE character. Not 3 characters-allowing someone to just play the best Pokemon in any given match up, instead of having to use all three Pokemon, is a buff. It's that simple. The Pokemon Trainer was designed to be a hard character to use, and among those designs was a rather intricate stamina/switch out system. To be good with the Pokemon Trainer is to be good with ALL three Pokemon and to understand and utilize this system as best as possible. Hacking the game to remove this system + make it so you can just be one Pokemon the entire time effectively introduces 3 new characters into the game.

If I show up at a tournament and someone says I have to play a PT on a hacked Wii I'll simply say hell no and make them play the normal PT on a regular Wii. Players should not have to hack their systems to accommodate the people who aren't happy with the game/their characters. If hacked PT's are allowed in tournament then I'll have no choice but to hack my Wii at home so I can train against hacked PT.

Yea...basically there are a ton of problems. The question isn't as simple as: does this make the game better. As I said earlier, you can do something to any game ever made in history to make that game better. The question is: can you, should you, and if you do will 8 million people follow suite?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because one game has it while we're hacking the other to rewrite the game in our own *******ized image.

What I am getting at though is you had mentioned earlier that if we were to make a hack it would need to be universal and affect the characters equally.

If you're so obsessed with making a fighting game in your own image, go program your own.

[/quote]
Where did you get this idea from Yuna? I am asking you a legitimate question, beisdes, if I make a game I'd run over a few copyright laws. *nod nod*

 

[Yuna]

PT is the same with his "inability to indefinetely stay as one PKM" weakness still present in PT. Individual PKM are not PT and as such aren't a buff to it. As long as that's the case, this can't go to the stage of buffing other characters.

Yes, they are (in my view).

And Yuna, WHO here can even make their own fighting game (let alone a Smash-style one) FROM SCRATCH?

Do I look like I care? Program your own and try to get a scene going for it or keep hacking away at Brawl and try to create a niche scene. Just don't try to make it the tournament standard or I will be standing at the front of the battlefield, carrying my tribe's flag and fighting you to the bitter end.

PT still has that key weakness. Individual Pkm lack it, but they're technically not PT since they are completely incapable of being another Pkm.

This just introduces a new way to play as PT.

What I am getting at though is you had mentioned earlier that if we were to make a hack it would need to be universal and affect the characters equally.

Yes, and? Your question was something else entirely. Don't strawman yourself.

Where did you get this idea from Yuna? I am asking you a legitimate question, beisdes, if I make a game I'd run over a few copyright laws. *nod nod*

Did I ask you to make a new Smash? Don't strawman me.

 

[Brinzy]

Call me whatever you want.

Also, I'm sorry to sound like a broken record here, but if you look at that chart, you'll notice that in more than one case, one Pokemon has a good match-up while the other two aren't as good. PT himself can use just that one Pokemon, at the cost of being battered upon switching, but then that Pokemon will fatigue. He can use all three, but now he's got a worse match-up.

If those other Pokemon can roll solo, then the only "advantage" that they lose is that they lose access to two other movesets. However, they also gain the advantage of not having to deal with those other two Pokemon when you lose a stock. Most of all, in my opinion, they lose fatigue, which means those Pokemon can now spam attacks in order to "bait" opponents, when before PT had to conserve his attacks in order to not screw himself over.

I'm against this now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I just reelaized something, Yuna's sig says he is a man but the poster earlier still called him a girl.
Maybe they are watching Yuna from afar somehow, he did say he was rather feminine in appearance.


Back on topic, hacks cannot be used as a competitive standard, hard to draw the line for one even if it worked out to make a better game.

 

[metaXzero]

Call me whatever you want.

Also, I'm sorry to sound like a broken record here, but if you look at that chart, you'll notice that in more than one case, one Pokemon has a good match-up while the other two aren't as good. PT himself can use just that one Pokemon, at the cost of being battered upon switching, but then that Pokemon will fatigue. He can use all three, but now he's got a worse match-up.

If those other Pokemon can roll solo, then the only "advantage" that they lose is that they lose access to two other movesets. However, they also gain the advantage of not having to deal with those other two Pokemon when you lose a stock. Most of all, in my opinion, they lose fatigue, which means those Pokemon can now spam attacks in order to "bait" opponents, when before PT had to conserve his attacks in order to not screw himself over.

I'm against this now.

Look at this as if the "No Fatigue" hack ISN'T used.

And I'll say it again to everyone. I'm not pushing for this. I'm looking at this in a "why not" type of way.

 

[leafgreen386]

I keep seeing people say this is somehow a buff to PT. I'd like to point out that there is a code that causes you to play only as an independent pokemon with no PT attached (so you can't switch) if you hold down shield when going from the character select to the stage select screen. This leaves PT exactly the same while essentially adding three new characters to the game.

Also, for arguments about whether or not hacking belongs in competitive play, I have one word for you: Counterstrike.

 

[Brinzy]

Ok, so let's say the no fatigue hack isn't used.

In my opinion, this reduces what I just said quite a bit, but you still don't have to switch to the other two at all when you die, and I still feel as if this is an advantage. I can say that it isn't an extremely large one, but it's an advantage nonetheless.

Also, for arguments about whether or not hacking belongs in competitive play, I have one word for you: Counterstrike.

Doesn't Counterstrike fall under "games that can be patched"? Brawl isn't meant to have a final product. CS is not, as far as I know.


Also, there's a difference between "using hacks" and "making hacks the competitive standard."

 

[metaXzero]

Ok, so let's say the no fatigue hack isn't used.

In my opinion, this reduces what I just said quite a bit, but you still don't have to switch to the other two at all when you die, and I still feel as if this is an advantage. I can say that it isn't an extremely large one, but it's an advantage nonetheless.



Doesn't Counterstrike fall under "games that can be patched"? Brawl isn't meant to have a final product. CS is not, as far as I know.


Also, there's a difference between "using hacks" and "making hacks the competitive standard."

It's a trade-off deal. Basically

+You no longer have to worry about the other 2 Pokemon's match-ups and stuff.
-You lose the whole switching up characters on the fly thing that PT has. You're limited to one style the entire match.

In the end though, I think the pro will outweigh the con (or vice-versa) in the long run (like most games where characters are different).

 

[ftl]

Lol. I can understand people not listening to Yuna, especially after he said "my reasoning is 'because I feel like it'", but AZ basically won this thread with a post people for some reason promptly ignored...

Sigh.

I'm absolutely against this, along with all hacks, as becoming the standard.

Why?

First is the very nature of hacks. It's simply to much power. If every single one of us could be the developer of any game we were handed then you bet your *** we would all improve it in ways we see fit. If we had the same tools in Melee back in 2006 that we have in Brawl I bet we would see a bunch of topics like:
Lets make is so Pichu doesn't damage himself!
Lets make is so Sheik can't CG half the cast by messing with the weight/knockback of the game!
Lets make is so the Ice Climbers can't wobble!
Lets cut the frames of all of Bowser's moves in half!

Any game every made in the history of the entire planet can be made better/different. Hacking a game isn't saying that the previous game sucked, its simply admitting that anything can be improved. Halo 1 could be made better with hacks. Melee could be made better with hacks. I'm sure someone could find something stupid about FF7 and hack the game to make it better. However, the problem is, if you actually do make your game better/different, you have to find a way to get not just hundreds, or thousands, but instead millions of people to play it.

Brawl has globally sold 8 million copies. That is a lot. Any single person who buys a copy of Brawl can look up the rules and in an instant be able to practice/play in a tournament. The same cannot be said of hacked Brawl.

It goes beyond that though-in order for competitive Brawl to be viable/interesting to the casual players (to attract new players) we need to be playing a game they can easily access. On top of this though, in order for the Brawl community to be attractive to sponsors (even Nintendo) and leagues (MLG) we need to be using the original game-not a hacked version (this should be for obvious reasons-including image and legal).

Finally, once you start hacking something its hard to say where to stop. As I said in first paragraph it is to much power. It is easily possible, and is already starting to happen, where there are competing hacks and people disagreeing on things like hit-stun (OMG HOW MUCH DO WE WANT!). It doesn't end with disagreement though, its entirelly possible that, after hacking the game, you discover that something you did actually made the game WORSE, then suddenly you have a problem on your hand-do you hack the game more to undo this new problem, or do you remove the previous hack? This problem is coupled with the fact that, at large, there are only a few people (less than 50-100) that actually have hacked Wii's, meaning that the chance of actually looking deep into the hacked game and how everything is changed will take a long time. It took 8 months for people to find Diddy Kong's single nana lock. 8 million copies sold and it took 8 months to find something as simply as short hop + down on the C-stick twice.

In relation to just the PT hack: its a buff. It is clearly a buff. PT is ONE character. Not 3 characters-allowing someone to just play the best Pokemon in any given match up, instead of having to use all three Pokemon, is a buff. It's that simple. The Pokemon Trainer was designed to be a hard character to use, and among those designs was a rather intricate stamina/switch out system. To be good with the Pokemon Trainer is to be good with ALL three Pokemon and to understand and utilize this system as best as possible. Hacking the game to remove this system + make it so you can just be one Pokemon the entire time effectively introduces 3 new characters into the game.

If I show up at a tournament and someone says I have to play a PT on a hacked Wii I'll simply say hell no and make them play the normal PT on a regular Wii. Players should not have to hack their systems to accommodate the people who aren't happy with the game/their characters. If hacked PT's are allowed in tournament then I'll have no choice but to hack my Wii at home so I can train against hacked PT.

Yea...basically there are a ton of problems. The question isn't as simple as: does this make the game better. As I said earlier, you can do something to any game ever made in history to make that game better. The question is: can you, should you, and if you do will 8 million people follow suite?

 

[Yuna]

+You no longer have to worry about the other 2 Pokemon's match-ups and stuff.
-You lose the whole switching up switching up characters on the fly thing that PT has. You're limited to one style the entire match.

And in certain match-ups, you do not have to switch. Certain match-ups have a single (or two) PT Pokémon better suited for the opposition. For those, you go with the Pokémon best suited for the match-up. For the match-ups that require switching out, you go for Base PT.

It's still buffing PT.

 

[Brinzy]

stuff

I can't speak for everyone, but I said nothing to AZ because 1) I agreed with his sentiments and 2) it's not like nobody else has said any of that before.

 

[metaXzero]

And in certain match-ups, you do not have to switch. Certain match-ups have a single (or two) PT Pokémon better suited for the opposition. For those, you go with the Pokémon best suited for the match-up. For the match-ups that require switching out, you go for Base PT.

It's still buffing PT.

Don't see what seperates this from CPing when your character has a bad match-up really...

Aren't they technically the same?

 

[Kitamerby]

Personally, a no-stamina hack to me is much more important than a no-tripping code. I'd love it if it could be enforced, but sadly, it most likely will not.

 

[Yuna]

Don't see what seperates this from CPing when your character has a bad match-up really...

Aren't they technically the same?

No, because not everyone has 3 movesets which they can either play as 3-in-1 (and suffer the downsides) or pick one of the three.

 

[Brinzy]

Don't see what seperates this from CPing when your character has a bad match-up really...

Aren't they technically the same?

Somewhat, but PT is one character who must make the best use of three different movesets vs. an opponent. This is more like having each moveset to itself and not using the other two against an opponent. Most characters only have one moveset, but PT has three.

Why should we add three characters to this game? Heck, it's not just adding three characters - you're taking a character with three movesets and separating them so you won't have the pros of the other two movesets but you also don't have to deal with the cons. This was born from the cons of PT, and it is mostly why it's so ingrained in me that this is something to improve at least one aspect of those three characters.

 

[Tornadith]

Sigh.

I'm absolutely against this, along with all hacks, as becoming the standard.

Why?

First is the very nature of hacks. It's simply to much power. If every single one of us could be the developer of any game we were handed then you bet your *** we would all improve it in ways we see fit. If we had the same tools in Melee back in 2006 that we have in Brawl I bet we would see a bunch of topics like:
Lets make is so Pichu doesn't damage himself!
Lets make is so Sheik can't CG half the cast by messing with the weight/knockback of the game!
Lets make is so the Ice Climbers can't wobble!
Lets cut the frames of all of Bowser's moves in half!

Any game every made in the history of the entire planet can be made better/different. Hacking a game isn't saying that the previous game sucked, its simply admitting that anything can be improved. Halo 1 could be made better with hacks. Melee could be made better with hacks. I'm sure someone could find something stupid about FF7 and hack the game to make it better. However, the problem is, if you actually do make your game better/different, you have to find a way to get not just hundreds, or thousands, but instead millions of people to play it.

Brawl has globally sold 8 million copies. That is a lot. Any single person who buys a copy of Brawl can look up the rules and in an instant be able to practice/play in a tournament. The same cannot be said of hacked Brawl.

It goes beyond that though-in order for competitive Brawl to be viable/interesting to the casual players (to attract new players) we need to be playing a game they can easily access. On top of this though, in order for the Brawl community to be attractive to sponsors (even Nintendo) and leagues (MLG) we need to be using the original game-not a hacked version (this should be for obvious reasons-including image and legal).

Finally, once you start hacking something its hard to say where to stop. As I said in first paragraph it is to much power. It is easily possible, and is already starting to happen, where there are competing hacks and people disagreeing on things like hit-stun (OMG HOW MUCH DO WE WANT!). It doesn't end with disagreement though, its entirelly possible that, after hacking the game, you discover that something you did actually made the game WORSE, then suddenly you have a problem on your hand-do you hack the game more to undo this new problem, or do you remove the previous hack? This problem is coupled with the fact that, at large, there are only a few people (less than 50-100) that actually have hacked Wii's, meaning that the chance of actually looking deep into the hacked game and how everything is changed will take a long time. It took 8 months for people to find Diddy Kong's single nana lock. 8 million copies sold and it took 8 months to find something as simply as short hop + down on the C-stick twice.

In relation to just the PT hack: its a buff. It is clearly a buff. PT is ONE character. Not 3 characters-allowing someone to just play the best Pokemon in any given match up, instead of having to use all three Pokemon, is a buff. It's that simple. The Pokemon Trainer was designed to be a hard character to use, and among those designs was a rather intricate stamina/switch out system. To be good with the Pokemon Trainer is to be good with ALL three Pokemon and to understand and utilize this system as best as possible. Hacking the game to remove this system + make it so you can just be one Pokemon the entire time effectively introduces 3 new characters into the game.

If I show up at a tournament and someone says I have to play a PT on a hacked Wii I'll simply say hell no and make them play the normal PT on a regular Wii. Players should not have to hack their systems to accommodate the people who aren't happy with the game/their characters. If hacked PT's are allowed in tournament then I'll have no choice but to hack my Wii at home so I can train against hacked PT.

Yea...basically there are a ton of problems. The question isn't as simple as: does this make the game better. As I said earlier, you can do something to any game ever made in history to make that game better. The question is: can you, should you, and if you do will 8 million people follow suite?

...that pretty much sums it up for me. I happen to agree with all of this.

And the thread goes to...AlphaZealot!

 

[metaXzero]

No, because not everyone has 3 movesets which they can either play as 3-in-1 (and suffer the downsides) or pick one of the three.

Both Base PKM trainer and the Individual Pkm have their ups and downs. If a player wants, they can main one of the 4 and CP with another when a match-up demands it. Just like maining any other character and CPing with another (even including PT and the individual Pkm).

My apologies. I still don't see the big difference....

 

[BEES]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the PT hack in Brawl+ tournaments. The real question here is whether hacking Pokemon Trainer should be allowed in standard tournaments. It would theoretically make PT stronger, but not significantly. I doubt this will be allowed. If the no trip hack isn't allowed in standard tournaments (a hack that has much more widespread support among the community) it's unlikely a hack that fixes a character flaw will be accepted either.

While I have no problem with tournaments allowing no-trip and PT hacked wiis alongside unhacked ones, a lot of people do. For them it has to be all or nothing. The logistics of getting everyone to implement the no-trip and PT hacks prevent it from happening.

Personally I'd love to main Charizard but it's not going to happen until the Brawl+ people standardize their hacks and organize tournaments.

 

[Yuna]

My apologies. I still don't see the big difference....

Because you're taking what is one single character and separating it into 3 new characters + the Base Version, now giving you the choice of playing with either all 3 and suffer all the downsides + enjoy all of the upsides or playing as a single PKMN, enjoying only the downsides and upsides of that one Pokémon!

This is not like Sheik/Zelda because Sheik/Zelda was designed for you to be able to do that with! PT was designed to be played as a single character with the pros and cons of all 3 movesets.

What's next, hacking Samus/Zamus so you can switch between both at will? I mean, it'd just be like Zelda/Sheik, after all! I don't see why not!