Allowing No Fatigue/No Forced Switch PT Hacks in Tourney Play

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Haha, that's my thread Falco, it can be found here. It is a pity it went mostly ignored, but hey, what're you gonna do, eh?

The Independent Pokemon code works just like it's been described, you hold shield on the select screen(just like selecting ZSS) and by the time you get to the match, you have a completely trainer independent pokemon.

What does that get you?:

• No switching whatsoever. No switch on KO, and a complete absence of a Down-B attack.
• Greatly increased stamina. After extensive testing, I've discovered that the independent Pokemon actually DO have stamina. Fortunately it's no issue at all because it's more than 5 minutes and time doesn't get subtracted with attacks. That and you'll get KO'd before your run out
• No Trainer whatsoever. There's no trainer on screen at all. You don't see him, you don't hear him. It's like playing Pikachu or the other pokemon.

Edit: @SilverBlaze: Unfortunately that's one of the issues I tried to go out and solve. If the Trainer were to be "fixed" by the codes/hacks, how would the people who actually use the Trainer like it to be treated? Which way would they want it to go?

I gave the pros and cons for each code, and a few arguments for and against each code as well. The only problem was nobody seemed to care.

 

[Steeler]

just leave Trainer as is. we are trying to make the three Pokemon playable and individual, not buff Trainer.

@ SB (hi sb)

he shouldn't be able to switch with the hacks on because the intent is to separate the characters, not buff Trainer. if you can switch, you are still playing under the Trainer moniker.

the situation you described is just something PT players have to deal with.

you have to be very clear with what the hacks are trying to do here. as in, you must make it so you can only play one pokemon no matter what, as if it were its own character (playing with stamina would make no sense) or else you are improving Trainer in general.

 

[cutter]

just leave Trainer as is. we are trying to make the three Pokemon playable and individual, not buff Trainer.

Removing fatigue and force switching IS buffing PT however.

 

[Steeler]

and removing the switch move? you are then playing as charizard or squirtle or ivysaur...not pokemon trainer.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

The game is played the way it is played. The end.

You can do whatever you want, but tournaments are played with unmodified Brawl and similar games.

 

[Yuna]

That's what I'm kinda getting at from this post anyway.

Fine, edit that to be "It's not just...".

Why should PT, if using the no fatigure/forced switch codes, not be allowed to switch in general with DownB? The characters would be the same as Zelda/Sheik, but with one more transformation.

Because the character was friggin' designed to work the way it works, not the way Zelda/Sheik work! PT is not meant to be played as 3 separate characters, it's one single character.

No, this is not the creator's intent argument, it's the "It's the game we have and it's the game we're going to play!"-argument.

The point can be made that because PT has more characters, the player thus has more options in battle, but for example, someone can't just switch back and forth between Squirtle and Charizard on a whim because Ivysaur is inbetween. Having to wait for the transform time once can already be punished easily, but twice?

It's a character flaw. If you choose to play as Pokémon Trainer, you'll have to live with it, the same way Donkey Kongs and Bowsers have to live with it if they face D3, the same way Captain Falcon has to live with it if he faces just about anyone except himself, just the way you have to live with it if you go up as Fox against Pikachu, just the way we have to live with it when we play Brawl and trip into a charged Smash.

That can get ugly, especially if said player sucks with Ivysaur and has to decide between playing Ivy or getting punished out of the Pokemon Switch

It's a part of playing as Pokémon Trainer. And who cares if some player sucks as Ivysaur? If he picks up PT, he better well learn all 3! It's a part of his friggin' character!

Hey, someone sucks as <insert character here> and keeps getting grabbed by ICs and infinited to hell. Let's ban IC infinites against them! We're not going to ban things or hack the game to help people who suck!

 

[Remzi]

If there was an easier way to spread this, I'd be all in favor. But the simple fact that it's a hack and that not everyone will have it on just means you can't standardize it IMO.

 

[ColinJF]

The logistical issue is beside the point. Rebalancing the game is unacceptable, and adding in new characters does rebalance the game by making characters have different match ups than they had before. Steeler is right that it isn't quite a buff to Pokemon Trainer, but that's also irrelevant, since the important issue is that it gives characters three new match ups, and since the match up versus each individual pokemon is not going to be the same as versus the whole pokemon trainer, this effectively changes the tiers.

The only sort of hacks that are acceptable are ones that don't actually change the game... like extended replay.

 

[ShadowLink84]

and removing the switch move? you are then playing as charizard or squirtle or ivysaur...not pokemon trainer.

The game was designed so that the three characters are to function as one character.
Squirtle, charizard and ivysaur are still considered a part of Pokemon trainer regardless.
They are the pokemon trainer in short and you are still buffing them regardless of how you want to call them.


I am totally down for no tripping.
Why?
It is ********. Perfect logic right here.

 

[Deoxys]

The logistical issue is beside the point. Rebalancing the game is unacceptable, and adding in new characters does rebalance the game by making characters have different match ups than they had before. Steeler is right that it isn't quite a buff to Pokemon Trainer, but that's also irrelevant, since the important issue is that it gives characters three new match ups, and since the match up versus each individual pokemon is not going to be the same as versus the whole pokemon trainer, this effectively changes the tiers.

The only sort of hacks that are acceptable are ones that don't actually change the game... like extended replay.

Well said. *golfclaps*

Don't worry, AA, I appreciated your post, too!

The only other acceptable hack I'm aware of is alternate music, btw.

I am totally down for no tripping.
Why?
It is ********. Perfect logic right here.

Posts like that are probably what I hate most about smashboards. Amazing Ampharos gave an excellent example of why no tripping is ********, and you come in with this BS.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well said. *golfclaps*

Don't worry, AA, I appreciated your post, too!

The only other acceptable hack I'm aware of is alternate music, btw.

Alternate music gives a boost to characters.
Sonic gets a boost to his damage capabilities whenever Sonic boom plays.

In either case though I have a question.
If cheating was to be allowed would it be possible to create a cheating format?

 

[Yuna]

Well said. *golfclaps*

I kinda said it first? Pages ago?

Anyway, alternate costume hacks, possibly. I mean, other fighting games have recoloring and unlockable outfits and stuff. We're stuck with only 5 for most characters. I'd love to see Sonic or Lucario not be mainly blue.

 

[DKKountry]

The game shouldn't be hacked in any way, especially since not everyone has a hacked Wii, and the only thing that should be allowed in tournaments is a non-hacked game that's accessible to everyone.

The only logical opinion regarding hacks in toueny rulez. Period.

 

[ColinJF]

I kinda said it first? Pages ago?

Don't worry, Yuna. No one's disputing that you maintain a consistent and passionate defence of proper competitive fighting game rules.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

The only way it's ever gonna happen, is in hacked tournaments, ie. specific tourneys made for the use of hacks. It's (most likely) never gonna become mainstream, or be used in mainstream tourneys.

 

[Deoxys]

I kinda said it first? Pages ago?

Anyway, alternate costume hacks, possibly. I mean, other fighting games have recoloring and unlockable outfits and stuff. We're stuck with only 5 for most characters. I'd love to see Sonic or Lucario not be mainly blue.

No, he brought up new points that you didn't explicitly say, like how the tiers would be effected. Also, he went further to talk about how hacks like no tripping aren't acceptable.

Plus I don't want to risk boosting a guy's ego when he already sigs himself.

I agree about Sonic and Lucario. I mean, why was Sakurai smoking so much cr@ck that he didn't think to make Mecha Sonic or Shadow one of Sonic's outfits or a shiny Lucario. I mean, Lucario ALREADY HAS an alternate costume that is very different in coloration, and he DIDN'T USE IT?! Sofa king we Todd did.

 

[Yuna]

No, he brought up new points that you didn't explicitly say, like how the tiers would be effected. Also, he went further to talk about how hacks like no tripping aren't acceptable.

No, he actually elaborated on what I said. I said "This would re-balance the game". Some people claimed this wasn't re-balancing it.

ColinJF then went on to explain why this would be re-balancing it by elaborating on what I'd said earlier. I'd simply stated what this would do, he elaborated on the effects for the hard of understanding.

I agree about Sonic and Lucario. I mean, why was Sakurai smoking so much cr@ck that he didn't think to make Mecha Sonic or Shadow one of Sonic's outfits or a shiny Lucario. I mean, Lucario ALREADY HAS an alternate costume that is very different in coloration, and he DIDN'T USE IT?! Sofa king we Todd did.

This was a man who, from what I hear, at one time had Sheik's Upair in Melee stronger than it is in NTSC Melee and gave her exploding needles.

 

[Popertop]

That final line makes Sakurai far more ******** than I ever could have imagined.
The exploding ones spike, right?

I personally would love to have the fatigue and no forced switch tourney legal, but the only thing would be that people would use all three with no stamina penalty instead of one.
If there was a way to force them to only use one pokemon with the hacks, and still have Pkmn trainer as a playable character then that would be the best option, but I don't really know if that's entirely possible.

I really don't think it would affect the balance of the game that much, aside from solo Lizardon actually being a viable option, and I would pick him up for once.

And the thing about no tripping is ********, it wouldn't make sonic OMGWTF good. If you can't beat sonic that's your own problem.

 

[Steeler]

I believe the effects of re-balancing would be minor. The biggest effect would be that Charizard would likely become a solid counterpick against Ness. Otherwise, none of the Pokemon have any 70-30 advantageous matchups as far as I know and have experienced (the Ness matchup is likely not even that bad).

I mean, I know this will re-balance the game (slightly). It's obvious. That's kind of the point of a hack adding 3 characters. I feel like the benefits of allowing the hacks would outweigh the negatives. Players should already know these matchups, after all. The matchup itself does not change. Other than, hey, I can't ledge stall and be gay to beat these characters, I have to actually learn the matchup.

But, I do see where the argument is going, and it's simply the old debate on hacking in general. However slight the modification to the competitive game, it's a modification, and many simply do not think this is acceptable in tournament play.

But as far as hacks go, I think these and no tripping would be the most acceptable. As Colin stated, Pokemon Trainer is not getting a buff here (he's already decent). The issue is simply players having to learn three matchups that are already in the game. Hacks should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Or at least that's my opinion from my POV.

 

[ColinJF]

The issue isn't learning the match ups; it's the match ups existing, and they aren't currently in the game. It doesn't even matter how minor the effect is, although it's more significant than no tripping which is already too significant. We don't rebalance competitive games.

There's also a slippery slope issue here. If you're going to add a match up where Ness can be chaingrabbed all the time, you might as well fix his grab break animation as well. And if you're going to fix his, you might as well fix Wario's as well. While we're at it why don't we remove all sorts of infinites and chaingrabs, and then fix a bunch of other match ups as well.

 

[metaXzero]

The logistical issue is beside the point. Rebalancing the game is unacceptable, and adding in new characters does rebalance the game by making characters have different match ups than they had before. Steeler is right that it isn't quite a buff to Pokemon Trainer, but that's also irrelevant, since the important issue is that it gives characters three new match ups, and since the match up versus each individual pokemon is not going to be the same as versus the whole pokemon trainer, this effectively changes the tiers.

The only sort of hacks that are acceptable are ones that don't actually change the game... like extended replay.

You take what you know from the PT match-up, but remove the other 2 pokemon (whichever they are). It's not adding 3 brand new and unfamiliar (playstyle wise) characters.

Also, what's the explanation of adding 3 characters is re-balancing the game?

EDIT: the slippery slope statement works if we're buffing PT (making the Pokemon individual is not buffing PT if the original is still there unchanged), Which again, we're not.

 

[Greenpoe]

Is steal wrong? Yes.

Is saving a life good? Of course.

What if you have to steal to save a life? What if the man who sells medicine is extremely greedy and refuses to sell you medicine for your dying mother at a reduced price, despite promising him that you'll repay the funds later on. You're breaking a law, but for a greater good. The same is true with hacking in Brawl.

 

[ColinJF]

Is steal wrong? Yes.

Is saving a life good? Of course.

What if you have to steal to save a life? What if the man who sells medicine is extremely greedy and refuses to sell you medicine for your dying mother at a reduced price, despite promising him that you'll repay the funds later on. You're breaking a law, but for a greater good. The same is true with hacking in Brawl.

Is posting unadulterated nonsense good? No.

You take what you know from the PT match-up, but remove the other 2 pokemon (whichever they are). It's not adding 3 brand new and unfamiliar (playstyle wise) characters.

Removing the other two pokemon obviously makes the match up different...

 

[Steeler]

the matchup with that Pokemon is not different. of course, you aren't playing against just that Pokemon, but the matchup is there. Now instead of 1/3 of a stock or however long the Poke is out, the matchup is present throughout the whole match. If, for example, one of the Pokemon has an advantage against you, Pokemon Trainer overall has an advantage, or close to it (if the other two are poopie).

 

[Boxob.]

Is steal wrong? Yes.

Is saving a life good? Of course.

What if you have to steal to save a life? What if the man who sells medicine is extremely greedy and refuses to sell you medicine for your dying mother at a reduced price, despite promising him that you'll repay the funds later on. You're breaking a law, but for a greater good. The same is true with hacking in Brawl.

No, that's ********. Stop that.

We didn't hack Melee to rebalance Mewtwo to always have a Beam sword on him cause he's amazing with items and that would balance him. We left him terrible for two reasons.

1) We had no choice.
2) Changing the game for one character is impractical, selfish, and completely unnecessary. Balancing this one character would merit changing other things about other characters. Go play Brawl + if you really want a hacked character, because in this game, we don't do that.

 

[ColinJF]

the matchup with that Pokemon is not different. of course, you aren't playing against just that Pokemon, but the matchup is there. Now instead of 1/3 of a stock or however long the Poke is out, the matchup is present throughout the whole match.

The match up is very obviously different. You can no longer use strategies designed to encourage the pokemon trainer to switch, such as camping to wear down his stamina. You can no longer rely on playing a different pokemon when you kill one. Those are elements of the pokemon trainer match up that are not present in the match up versus a single pokemon, and they make the match up different. It's a pretty ridiculous claim that they are the same match ups.

 

[metaXzero]

No, that's ********. Stop that.

We didn't hack Melee to rebalance Mewtwo to always have a Beam sword on him cause he's amazing with items and that would balance him. We left him terrible for two reasons.

1) We had no choice.
2) Changing the game for one character is impractical, selfish, and completely unnecessary. Balancing this one character would merit changing other things about other characters. Go play Brawl + if you really want a hacked character, because in this game, we don't do that.

AGAIN, this isn't buffing PT. It's adding 3 "new" characters. PT is still their.

 

[ColinJF]

I don't know how Yuna has such a high tolerance for this.

It doesn't matter whether it's buffing pokemon trainer. Adding new characters to the game rebalances the game.

 

[Popertop]

The issue isn't learning the match ups; it's the match ups existing, and they aren't currently in the game. It doesn't even matter how minor the effect is, although it's more significant than no tripping which is already too significant. We don't rebalance competitive games.

There's also a slippery slope issue here. If you're going to add a match up where Ness can be chaingrabbed all the time, you might as well fix his grab break animation as well. And if you're going to fix his, you might as well fix Wario's as well. While we're at it why don't we remove all sorts of infinites and chaingrabs, and then fix a bunch of other match ups as well.

you seem to not understand that this is not intended to be a competitive game. at it's core it is a party game. we are trying to change things to make it more competitive.
What is wrong with making the three gimmick characters tourney viable?
And it's not adding the matchup, the matchup is already there.
It's just taking away the "Lulz I can camp the whole time"
Camping is ghey. And that's like the only major disadvantage matchup Ness has.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't know how Yuna has such a high tolerance for this.

It doesn't matter whether it's buffing pokemon trainer. Adding new characters to the game rebalances the game.

As I said in a previous post, plz explain...

 

[Steeler]

metaxzero, those are two different points. you cannot counter one with the other. It's rebalancing the game by adding three new characters, not by buffing PT.

 

[ColinJF]

you seem to not understand that this is not intended to be a competitive game. at it's core it is a party game. we are trying to change things to make it more competitive.

A game is competitive if it can be played competitively, which is obviously the case with Brawl. I'm pretty sure no Nintendo video games were "intended" to be competitive, and that includes Smash Bros Melee, Mario Golf, and Mario Party 3, but they can all be played competitively.

As I said in a previous post, plz explain...

I already did.

 

[Xiivi]

Of course it's buffing pokemon trainer.

You've now taken pokemon trainer's moveset, and presented it in four different ways. Now instead of just having access to pokemon trainer, you have access to pokemon trainer, squirtle, ivysaur, and charizard. All of which are variants off of pokemon trainer's moveset. Because of this, a person playing pokemon trainer now has three new options at the character select screen, where they have effectively been able to play an altered version of his moveset. This is catering to pokemon trainer by allowing him to be played with four distinct movesets instead of the one already available to him.

We should not cater to any character. This should not ever be used in tournaments, and will never be featured in any of mine.

 

[XxBlackxX]

you seem to not understand that this is not intended to be a competitive game. at it's core it is a party game. we are trying to change things to make it more competitive.

what? we don't change things in competitive games to make things more competitive.

What is wrong with making the three gimmick characters tourney viable?
And it's not adding the matchup, the matchup is already there.

huh? if adding more "viable" characters because you feel like it is okay, then why can't we just ban/hack/change everything else that makes characters unviable?

It's just taking away the "Lulz I can camp the whole time"
Camping is ghey. And that's like the only major disadvantage matchup Ness has.

well, that's the how brawl was designed. PT had major design flaws that make him bad in tournies. too bad. deal with it.

 

[Popertop]

first of all I'd like to say **** YOU

secondly have you ever seen anything that remotely resembles tripping in a competitive FIGHTING game?

no you haven't

 

[XxBlackxX]

first of all I'd like to say **** YOU

secondly have you ever seen anything that remotely resembles tripping in a competitive FIGHTING game?

no you haven't

what the hell? just because we disagree with you? how immature....
anyways, have you seen any OTHER competitive fighting game that used HACKS in actual tournies just to "make more characters viable"?



....that's what i thought.

 

[metaXzero]

A game is competitive if it can be played competitively, which is obviously the case with Brawl. I'm pretty sure no Nintendo video games were "intended" to be competitive, and that includes Smash Bros Melee, Mario Golf, and Mario Party 3, but they can all be played competitively.



I already did.

I'm sorry. I view the term of "re-balancing" here as changing existing characters, not adding "new" ones and leaving the existing ones alone.

Well the tier list changes due to the new characters (probably slightly, but that's irrelevent), but that's expected from adding new characters. I don't see it being as bad as say buffing Ganny.

Of course it's buffing pokemon trainer.

You've now taken pokemon trainer's moveset, and presented it in four different ways. Now instead of just having access to pokemon trainer, you have access to pokemon trainer, squirtle, ivysaur, and charizard. All of which are variants off of pokemon trainer's moveset. Because of this, a person playing pokemon trainer now has three new options at the character select screen, where they have effectively been able to play an altered version of his moveset. This is catering to pokemon trainer by allowing him to be played with four distinct movesets instead of the one already available to him.

We should not cater to any character. This should not ever be used in tournaments, and will never be featured in any of mine.

Basically, you can CP with the 3 "new" characters now? I.......don't see what's wrong with something like main PT and secondairy Squirtle.

uugh...I'm worn out from errands. I going to fail here.

 

[Popertop]

what the hell? just because we disagree with you? how immature....
anyways, have you seen any OTHER competitive fighting game that used HACKS in actual tournies just to "make more characters viable"?



....that's what i thought.

OTHER fighting games aren't ********, and take actual skill

internet phail :embarrass

I don't look at it like hacking, I look at it like changing Sakurai's AWFUL mistakes.

 

[Steeler]

i wish i had smarter people than popertop and metaxzero on my side

LOL

 

[XxBlackxX]

OTHER fighting games aren't ********, and take actual skill

internet phail :embarrass

I don't look at it like hacking, I look at it like changing Sakurai's AWFUL mistakes.

if brawl is so ********, get out of the brawl forums and go play whatever isn't ********. stop trying to change brawl, (unless, of course, something is so broken it needs to be banned) if you don't like it, don't play it.

yeah, sakurai failed at creating brawl. too bad. we don't just add random **** because you feel like it.