Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[munkus beaver]

Yes, he is.

Was it specifically voted on and discussed as part of the ban process?

 

[*Cam*]

Was it specifically voted on and discussed as part of the ban process?

Yes, doubles was brought up and we agreed any vote should include doubles.

EDIT: I'm trying to narrow down my Season 1 main. I'm thinking Olimar, Peach, Pit, Kirby, or Snake.

 

[munkus beaver]

Wouldn't D3 and Snake be the best characters in a MK void?

 

[*Cam*]

And probably Marth

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

D3 will definitely not be the best in that void, but his rise will hurt Snake's chances of being there. Safe money is on Diddy or Marth.

 

[munkus beaver]

Yes, doubles was brought up and we agreed any vote should include doubles.

I do have to keep asking questions to clarify how you conducted your process. My goal is clarity here, not to be antagonistic.

Why was that decision made? How would the reasoning for banning in singles transfer to doubles? Based on what little information I have concerning the decision for banning in singles (using Reflex's account of his decision) the logic does not transfer. Much in the same way that certain tactics which are verboten in single player matches are not so in doubles.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

hi i play Yoshi,Jiggs and Fox, when is marth NOT a problem?

 

[*Cam*]

I do have to keep asking questions to clarify how you conducted your process. My goal is clarity here, not to be antagonistic.

Why was that decision made? How would the reasoning for banning in singles transfer to doubles? Based on what little information I have concerning the decision for banning in singles (using Reflex's account of his decision) the logic does not transfer. Much in the same way that certain tactics which are verboten in single player matches are not so in doubles.

It was decided mainly for consistency's sake. However, doubles is always completely flooded with MKs, especially in the top placements.

You are right though; they are two different types of events, and the reasoning is different.

EDIT: I'm not going to pretend we spent a lot of time thinking about the doubles aspect though.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You're one of the people that voted? See, I am actually being rather civil here, despite the veiled and direct insults that the people in your organization keep throwing out. I am not getting mad or upset, and I'm not arguing the merits of the ban at all, if you will notice. I am pointing out the inconsistencies in your group's position, so follow your own advice and don't take it personally.

First line is a serious question. Your previous comment is making begin to question your ability to understand basic logic.

This isn't an argument because you don't have a defensible position. My point is that two months is not enough time to bring out a competitive character from scratch. Many people in your organization have taken the opposite stance. I am requesting that they prove their point.

Others have done it before, look at Janitor. That was what my Falco was originally. I used to be a Mario main. That's what my Meta Knight was originally and he won me tournament matches. That's what I'm doing to fill the void on my secondaries. That's the point of the challenge I made. I'll play you or Slam's MK if you'd prefer, although I may select a character higher up the tier list than Ike.

Especially with the emphasis that your group has made on "community benefit" over "personal benefit." Wouldn't it follow your same logic of benefiting the community and encouraging newcomers if your initial league was composed of new characters? It certainly would, and it certainly would encourage people who actually used MK as a main to continue playing the game. If nothing else, it's a symbolic gesture by your organization that is hoping to be taken professionally that its members are not out for pecuniary gain.

Say what? Please explain how I voted ProBan for my own monetary benefit, because I'm fairly certain that in doing so I've made myself much more likely to lose. I'm also sure that we're gaining members for every salty MK player we would lose (read: at max 2).

So again, I say put your money where your mouth is. Give MK players a reasonable amount of time to pick up a main or drop yours for the opening season. It's not like I'm asking you to drop your main forever, just for the amount of time that would be reasonable for an MK main to pick up a new character and be competitive. Five Months.

No.

I'm already being handicapped by the loss of MK. I already plan to have a tournament ready counterpick for Pikachu and Ice Climbers.

Reflex and Cam both have indicated their position that two months is a reasonable amount of time to pick up a new character and that they made their decision not for personal gain, but to benefit the community. I am asking that they, and those that made the decision on similiar grounds, actually go through with their assertions and do what they are asking their community to do. MK mains who did vote on it are going to be just as hamstrung as the rest, as you said, and it won't affect those who did not actually have any say (and thus no way of getting personal gain from) in the A/S/L deciding body.

Sorry you main MK? I mean, I feel bad that you got drafted and lost a leg, but you're not convincing me to saw mine off because I voted for the draft.

My assertion is that if you deny my challenge and voted in the A/S/L to ban MK with a two month lead in as oppossed to a five-six month lead-in then you are a hypocrite. This is not an insult, it is a statement of fact.

And I say you're salty.

You're assertion takes for granted that the vote was made with personal benefit in mind. You have absolutely no proof of that motive so you're making this call-out based on an assumption rather than hard fact.

Your assertion needs three conditions applied to it instead of your one.

If you voted to ban MK in the ASL for personal benefit and don't play MK in tournament, then you deny your challenge, then yes, you're a hypocrit.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I do have to keep asking questions to clarify how you conducted your process. My goal is clarity here, not to be antagonistic.

Why was that decision made? How would the reasoning for banning in singles transfer to doubles? Based on what little information I have concerning the decision for banning in singles (using Reflex's account of his decision) the logic does not transfer. Much in the same way that certain tactics which are verboten in single player matches are not so in doubles.

MK in doubles is an even bigger problem than MK in singles and I'll point out my entire thought process, including the data leading me to that decision, in a personal message if it bothers you that much. Is it really such a logical leap to you to ban MK in doubles after he was banned in singles?

 

[munkus beaver]

Ryker, you have a sailor moon avatar and post with light blue colors with the tone of a child thumbing his nose.

I have a law degree.

If there is a problem with basic logic, I can assure you it's not with me.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, you have a sailor moon avatar and post with light blue colors with the tone of a child thumbing his nose.

I have a law degree.

If there is a problem with basic logic, I can assure you it's not with me.

There's so much wrong with that post, let me break it down.

First, it's Sailor Mercury.

Secondly, it's only one light blue color.

Third, I'm not thumbing my nose, I'm holding it in the air.

Fourth, I'm not assuming you have a problem with basic logic, I'm calling you out for intentionally ignoring it. It's not that I think you're stupid (despite the fact that I'm implying it), it's that I think you're evil.

 

[*Cam*]

^ Don't read too much into that; he doesn't actually think you're evil.

 

[munkus beaver]

Ryker, you are doing a stellar job as the public face of your organization. Continue to be a professional officer worthy of an adult conversation. I am sure your maturity will serve you both well, and will be a useful predictor on how reliable you are to be holding onto my actual legal tender.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

PURE EVIL!

Spoiler

xtencaps

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, you are doing a stellar job as the public face of your organization. Continue to be a professional officer worthy of an adult conversation. I am sure your maturity will serve you both well, and will be a useful predictor on how reliable you are to be holding onto my actual legal tender.

And you're doing a wonderful job of arguing your point on a flawed premise. Glad we understand each other.

 

[munkus beaver]

I am honestly amazed at the dichotomy between the professionalism of Cam and Rykers...behavior. Cam, you are doing a good job of being the face for your organization, and I think you should continue as you will likely only get better. But maybe you should talk to your colleagues about how being an officer for an organization vying for legitimacy means that you have to have a standard of behavior.

 

[_Keno_]

I would be inclined to agree with Munkus if we were in the ASL thread or any ASL tournament thread, but we are in a social thread.

And Ryker, if you didn't already know, Munkus, rather than Cam, was the face of AL smash for the first year or two. He knows whats up when it comes to legitimacy.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Munkus, go away. You're just trying to spread salt. I pointed out a legitimate flaw in your argument and you said "I have a law degree." That's the equivalent of responding to a question of "Why?" with "Because I said so."

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And Ryker, if you didn't already know, Munkus, rather than Cam, was the face of AL smash for the first year or two. He knows whats up when it comes to legitimacy.

But apparently nothing of hypocrisy. He's assigning motive with no proof of intent.

 

[*Cam*]

I am honestly amazed at the dichotomy between the professionalism of Cam and Rykers...behavior. Cam, you are doing a good job of being the face for your organization, and I think you should continue as you will likely only get better. But maybe you should talk to your colleagues about how being an officer for an organization vying for legitimacy means that you have to have a standard of behavior.

You have a point there, but I think smashers are accustomed to a certain type of discourse on SWF. Although I certainly agree that we should refrain from insulting comments, I don't want to tell officers like Ryker that they cannot be themselves in a social thread.

It also really depends on the subject at hand. If Ryker or Reflex, the Treasurer and Vice President, are talking about the Alabama Smash League, then I expect them to be professional. If they are talking about the pros/cons of Brawl vs Melee, then I don't think I have any grounds to regulate their behavior.

 

[munkus beaver]

You're focusing on a small aspect of what I said rather than the entire thing. You are narrow minded and think that this ignorance somehow gives you the upperhand in a discussion. It does not.

And yes, Cam. You have the right of it. When you act as the face for your group, you behave yourself a certain way. I was trying to be civil and was asking legitimate questions concerning the nature of your group. Your response and his response to the same comments can be held to a shine like Goofus and Gallant.

Honestly, I don't think civility is too high a standard for smashboards, but I've been wrong about that before.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Enlighten me then. I would hate to accidentally strawman you. Summarize your issues.

 

[munkus beaver]

I'll do that later if more people have as much trouble understanding the premises as you seem to. I suggest rereading what I said and focusing on the points that the ASL has used for the time period of the MK ban.

 

[*Cam*]

As a side note, I think I am going to use a combination of Olimar, Peach, and Snake during the first season of ASL.

 

[munkus beaver]

If I could use squirtle, and only squirtle, I would teach the rebels to fear this fully operationally turtlesystem.

 

[shaSLAM]

ryker, i think you are the one who is not understanding what munkus is saying, not the other way around. and why should he have to explain his points again if he already posted them? unles you just dont understand it the way he said it, but you guys think im the most uneducated person here and i understood his posts entirely and frankly agree with it.

also if mk is banned in anything i think it should be doubles. ill admit he is ridiculous in doubles.

so who all is everyone picking up then?


and this will not effect rag because he has like 5 mains. he just chooses to use mk in tournament but that doesnt change the fact that he has like 4 other intensly trained characters in his bag already.

 

[theONEjanitor]

mk is banned, and cam is not using pikachu.
its as if the god are smiling upon me.

 

[*Cam*]

mk is banned, and cam is not using pikachu.
its as if the god are smiling upon me.

... but I'll be using Olimar.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

​

My point is that two months is not enough time to bring out a competitive character from scratch. Many people in your organization have taken the opposite stance. I am requesting that they prove their point.

So again, I say put your money where your mouth is. Give MK players a reasonable amount of time to pick up a main or drop yours for the opening season. It's not like I'm asking you to drop your main forever, just for the amount of time that would be reasonable for an MK main to pick up a new character and be competitive. Five Months.

I don't understand why I would want to bend over backward to prove something to, like, three people. Even if I did, I could not fairly participate, because I'm at least solid (relatively; you can't expect my Ganondorf to be every bit as threatening as, say, my Marth) with every character in the game, and saying that I picked up a character from scratch today would be a lie, no matter what character I picked up.

I used to do it all the time. A majority of my Smash career in AL/GA has been something like, "Do exceptionally well with Wario, and do rather well with a character that I've been playing for, like, a week or two." That said, I'd much rather play the characters I know quite well, rather than the ones I don't enjoy (because those are the same characters I would and would not use in general if given a choice). I still want to improve, and I'd rather do it with the character(s) I'm going to improve with in the future, Meta Knight ban or not.

Wouldn't D3 and Snake be the best characters in a MK void?

No. Dedede loses to Falco, Olimar, Diddy, Pikachu, Ice Climbers...A vast majority of the high tiers. Snake has better matchups, for sure, but his great weaknesses still create a lot of trouble for his players, and he doesn't have any really good matchups, as far as I can tell (excluding garbage tier, of course). Pretty much every competitive character can put up a good fight against Snake.

As far as high tiers go, Falco, Marth, Wario, and Ice Climbers become more threatening, for sure. Lots of mid tiers, such as Fox, Wolf, and ROB, become pretty solid with Meta Knight gone, which helps and hinders various characters (Pikachu is glad; Olimar is not).

I think seeing new characters come out in greater force will be interesting to see.

Slammy: fudge
Slammy: my state
L S D left the room.
Slammy: banned mk
Slammy: im going wolf
HD_Alure: your state sucks
El Fudge: alabama has 8 ppl
Slammy: idk
El Fudge: why would they ban mk
thetrulombari: seriously?
thetrulombardi: wow
Deox: slammy
Deox: den everyone there
Deox: is a noob



conversation i just had

Who are any of these people, and why would their opinions affect us at all?

 

[Mahgnittoc]

If I get my car fixed and can start going to smashfest I'll pick up the 5 characters to prove my point.

And I think a lot of problems with MK mains is they dropped their mains for MK or started with him. They never really had to learn another character besides MK and a few threatening moves that they can beat with nado or SL. Even though I mained Diddy from the start I've constantly been looking for someone to counter my personal weaknesses such as Marth, Peach, and MK. I played D3, Pt, and DK because I liked them. Hell the first time Aloha saw me he thought I mained Luigi because instead of practicing Diddy that week before the tourney I practiced Luigi and I was destroying scrubs with him.

I think the big problem here is actually picking up a new character from the one you have used for a very long time. I know for a fact me, Cam, and Spade could pick almost anyone in the cast and be successful because when we get together and play a lot of times we just use random.

Learning new characters isn't that hard especially if you have a good knowledge of what's going on in the game and know most of the ins and outs of a character. I'm pretty sure anyone could have a decent Kirby or Falco ready in 2 months because the first half of every stock is CG. No offense to anyone who mains them. I know how hard it can be to land a grab but that's just my example.

 

[theONEjanitor]

... but I'll be using Olimar.

i dont mind olimar as much anymore really

 

[*Cam*]

i dont mind olimar as much anymore really

You will be... You... will... be...

EDIT: I can show you some things in the Pikachu - Snake matchup if you want.

 

[I SEE YOU]

I'm so ready to get my Yoshi on. I've been playing with a handful of characters for awhile, & still intend on using them when needed, but I REALLY like Yoshi. I'm looking forward to playing everyone & showing them what Yoshi can do.

 

[popsofctown]

Munkus, I usually disagree with you a lot, but I happen to agree with a lot of the salt you've posted, at least in principle.

The character knowledge component of the MK ban is something that's hard to ignore. There's a nonzero number of people in the community are gimped by the MK ban because they don't play anyone else. And I have to agree "you've got two months" isn't a complete answer, because it does matter how frequently you play over any particular span of time, and it's not unarguably true that two months is all it takes to max out a new character.

On the other hand, the "challenge" you proposed, while I totally agree with it in spirit, has some practical issues. Has Reflex really played this character before? Can I use this guy I've played a couple times against Marth to complement playing a totally new Ness? Have I been playing this character in the closet anyway? So it doesn't fully work out. I don't think there is a real solution available besides leaving MK legal. The problem with that solution is that it perpetually applies itself over and over again and renders the character unbannable, even if he develops 80-20 matchups across the board. I think people really just want to take the gimp on the MK players to the gut, as collateral damage, in order to make a ban they feel is best for the game. It's really unfortunate there's no way to evenly distribute that damage. It's also unfortunate that you and slam happen to both be taking the damage and on the side of the argument that the ban is not for the good of the game. It's an ugly combination. If you two decide to skip the first season of ASL in order to learn a new character or never join ASL for that reason, I'm not going to think much less of you. It's pretty understandable.

I want to point out though, that just because you two put your coin in a box and the announcer yells the name of the character being banned, that doesn't mean you're the only one being damaged by the ban, nor that your the one being most damaged by the ban. For instance, Ryker plays Falco with a pocket MK. Falco has lots of matchups against characters that are advantageous, and significantly more advantageous than Meta Knight's corresponding matchup, due to Falco's projectile and chaingrab making him more specialized. Being able to complement that by a very easily learned, stage universal pocket MK arguably gives him a combination that is more powerful than MK alone. But now that combination is banned, and there is no one as good as MK at covering up Falco's bad matchups.

IMO, diddy is a not-that-special character with a great MK matchup, and he's going to find himself a lot less lackluster without that going for him.

There's other things like this, it's mostly subjective, I'm just trying to point out it's not black and white.

There's a lot of characters that are very powerful but totally gimped by Meta Knight, you know. With him gone, no one knows how to play with or against those characters, yet they have some really good matchups. The Meta Knight ban removes your main, but at the same time gives you a chance to play one of those characters and be on level playing ground in that niche. Is that a ray of hope, hopefully? DK (blind pick and counterpick, because he's still infinited by D3), Peach, Toon Link, Olimar, ICs, Rob, who knows what else I can't think of, lots of characters like that. Brawl with MK banned is not Brawl with a handicap with specific players, it's a completely new game that some people already happen to know more about than others.


I also have to agree about the doubles MK ban. I was given a vote on the MK ban but never given a separate vote for the doubles case, nor a part of that discussion. Doubles is a different format and should be treated as such. MK dominates tournament results for doubles, yes, but we also know that he's a very widely played character because he's powerful in singles. We don't know for certain that a Fox/Ike team isn't better than MK/Snake, and that MK snake teams simply win because who the heck has spent hours on end playing Ike already. I also disagree that MK's singles quality logically translate straight into doubles, he's a lighter character and doesn't have any amazing execute moves like Snake does, which are bigger disadvantages in doubles than in singles. I think MK should be permitted in doubles until it is demonstrated that he dominates there without him having the advantage of a larger, singles-based player pool.

And, as a reminder, there's at least one other person in your boat who voted for the ban, I play MK exclusively and voted to ban MK. I'm terrible with any other character, ask Ben. I'm going to try to pick up a new character and participate in ASL this season even though I think I'm at a disadvantage, but I'm going to try to weather that disadvantage by playing the new risers brought forth by the ban, D3, Olimar, or Peach, or maybe Luigi, I'll be trying out plenty of characters next smashfest.

 

[Duchock]

Too much ad hominid for my taste.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Too much ad hominid for my taste.

hominem*
Latin nerd right here.

 

[munkus beaver]

Pops: Some people seem unwilling to even engage in the spirit of the challenge, not using their main for the first season of the tourney and picking up a different character to use. Of course I say from scratch, as that is the case with a person like me and others who have played MK exclusively, but I am fully aware that people would most likely drift toward characters they have played maybe in casuals or friendlies on the side, but have not had the confidence to debut them into a full ring match. The fact that some scoff at the spirit of the idea, that it is clear that I should not hamstring myself because of you, reveals something about themselves.

What I am asking for is clearly symbolic in many respects and as much a peace giving offering by your organization as it is a legitimate community building exercise. My complaint is not "YOU SHOULD HAVE NOT BANNED MK IN SINGLES! YOU ARE FOOLS! YOU WILL BURN FOR THIS AND I WILL MAKE YOU RUE THE DAY YOU EVER CROSSED PATHS WITH THE GODKING OF ALABAMA BRAWL!" it is "It is basically unfair to ask players who use MK as their main to abandon it on such short notice without doing the same yourself." Again, I'm not asking everyone to do it, just those that made the decision to be a part of the ruling body of the organization and voted for the short time frame. Great power, great responsibility, all that jazz? What better way to emphasize that your decision was made without any selfish intent and was done entirely as a community building exercise?

Concede that it is unfair on such short notice and apply the same spirit to yourselves. I guarantee it will impress other communities and could set an example on getting MK bans done quicker. Call it a team building exercise, call it a compromise, but it's going to take me, personally, and other MK mains a lot of effort to bring a new character to the field in such a short amount of time, so at least acknowledge that or prove me wrong.

 

[popsofctown]

ah, ok. Informally. I don't know, maybe reflex will oblige if you make it clear that anything but Wario and PT is fair game.

It's impossible for me to do anything but comply with the challenge

 

[_Keno_]

I will make sure not to play peach during the first season of ASL (at least in brawl).
And I like the idea of this new main thing more than just as an equalizer for mk mains, but also to get everyone to branch out. I know I didn't progress very far as a Peach player in melee until I started playing a wide variety of characters.