Advancing Samus' Metagame

[tha_carter]

Nice information coming out. And Rohins, im definately going to try that.


Random question; What are some of the Samus matchups any of you seem to think are 'too disadvantageous to win.'

Maybe we can give out some pointers.

Im playing at a huge tourney, in Niagra this saturday. And i dont think ill use Samus for Falco, Olimar, Toon Link, MK, and GnW.

 

[Blad01]

Nice information coming out. And Rohins, im definately going to try that.


Random question; What are some of the Samus matchups any of you seem to think are 'too disadvantageous to win.'

Maybe we can give out some pointers.

Im playing at a huge tourney, in Niagra this saturday. And i dont think ill use Samus for Falco, Olimar, Toon Link, MK, and GnW.

Well i main Falco, and seriously the match-up is not as bad for you as you think.

• Blaster could look better than Samus' projectile game, but in fact (homing) missiles spam is also very annoying for a falco. (And Falco's shine has lag... That you can punish with Zair)
• Zair outranges Falco, and it's sooo annoying. The only two moves that could beat Zair are of course laser and maybe shine if perfectly timed.
• Falco is a (medium) fastfaller, some Samus's combos work good on him.
• Offstage, it's 100:0 Samus. She can gimp Falco so easily(Side B and Up B), it's awful. On the other hand, Falco can't really do anything to gimp her.
• Falco's chaingrab doesn't work, some D-Throws combos don't work neither.
• Falco has a hard time killing Samus. Samus has also a hard time killing Falco, though. I think it's even when it comes to kill.
• Falco is lighter than Samus.

55:45 Falco in my opinion, but i can be wrong. It's also maybe because there is a very good Samus player here.

 

[tha_carter]

Lol, falcos found a way around not chaing grabbing Samus a long time ago.
Dthrow>Dair>jab>Grab is even more annoying.

But i second Marth, who i feel has a good size advantage. Im just taking the easier route.

Thanks for the input though, especially from a falco.

 

[Blad01]

Lol, falcos found a way around not chaing grabbing Samus a long time ago.
Dthrow>Dair>jab>Grab is even more annoying.

I know, but Dash to Dair must be perfectly buffered to hit Samus, and from what i remember against the Samus i know, she can still DI away + Double Jump to avoid it at 20-30%.

I have to play against the Samus main here to confirm that though.

 

[0RLY]

Sauna has... issues with letting go of old terminology. Oh the times we've argued over the term "SHFFL" in Brawl...

And to help clarify, he's buffering directional input during the Zair so that he slides upon landing. This makes it so that while you're benefiting from the buffered directional input, you don't surrender your ability to add new input. What this produces is an effect very similar to wavelanding. I'm not even sure Sauna fully understands how he does it. His method of learning isn't exactly an orthodox one... He screws around until something odd happens. Then tries to replicate it. I hate it, but it works.

There isn't any sliding when landing from any aerial. It's your mind playing tricks on you. This produces an effect very similar to landing. Trial and error is effective. I guess it's hard to get rid of the words you've been using for the last 3 years, I guess.

It's not "lag" moreso than a certain amount of frames you are unable to fall through the platform. For example, do a missile cancel on a platform then try to fall through. It should take a while before it actually allows you fall through the platform. If you shield then release you can fall through the moment you release shield or...

Shield Dropping: Lightly pressing down while on a platform and in shield. If you do it right, you fall through the platform without having to let go of shield. A good way to practice is to first get it so you can angle your shield down as opposed to spotdodge. Once you can do that, while on the platform work on angling your shield down and moving the stick all the way down as fast as possible.

Once you get the rhythm down you can just subtly tap down while in shield and you will fall through a platform.

ORLY? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spFgKaJ3Jkk 0:22

Okay, I'll give Shield Dropping a shot. My game will probably be gay and be all like NO U! and make me sidestep no matter what. ^^

 

[Rohins]

There isn't any sliding when landing from any aerial. It's your mind playing tricks on you. This produces an effect very similar to landing. Trial and error is effective. I guess it's hard to get rid of the words you've been using for the last 3 years, I guess.

ORLY? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spFgKaJ3Jkk 0:22

Okay, I'll give Shield Dropping a shot. My game will probably be gay and be all like NO U! and make me sidestep no matter what. ^^

HMMMMM! I like what I see there. If I were to make a blatant guess I'd say you are somehow causing yourself to bypass the buffered duck which is what usually makes it difficult to fall through the platform. Gives me something to work on.

 

[0RLY]

I think they way it works is... you can't buffer a duck if you're in midair. Technically, you're just buffering the down input. It just requires precision/timing/button mashing to get it right

 

[Sago]

i cant figure the shield down thing for the life of me

 

[Smash_Gigas]

I know this usually doesn't have a huge impact on a match, but im just curious. How do you normally start your matches? I usually start with 2 homing missle in a full jump and 1 one more missle as I land, but sometimes I just start by charging my charge shot.

Depends.

Battlefield: Zair instantly off the ledge. Depending on how they react to it, I move on from there. If they got hit by the zair, I can safely assume they're probably on the aggressive side and can be caught by surprise. I'll usually try to harass them from close to mid-range attacks and see how they handle it. If they avoided my Zair, however, I can see that they know what to watch out for. I'll usually then try to form a brick wall and stay on the defensive side untill I can see what he's strong / weak against.

Almost any other stage: Charge my Ownage Beam. Sometimes I'll MC a good bit to see how they can handle my projectile game, and stay on the defensive side. If there's useable platforms (Yoshi's Island), I'll try to somehow make them get up there, and follow with aerial attacks if possible. If there is no platform (Final Destination), I try to form a shield with Morph Ball Bombs in attempt to make my opponent think twide before approaching. (Unless they have projectiles of their own.)

Generally speaking, I like to poke my foes with different sticks, and see which ones he breaks and which ones he doesn't. Samus has a lot of toys to play with.

 

[Sago]

. Samus has a lot of toys to play with.

thats sounds sexuel but for the most part i agree start out with a zair off of bf and see how they handle it, if there rohins then they run off the back and hit you with a missle and your just like what the hell ?!?!?

 

[PK-ow!]

i cant figure the shield down thing for the life of me

Shield.

Go through the platform.

That's it.

The guy was tripping on how to explain it, but all it does is get you to move through the platform. The tech here is that Brawl has some kind of 'safety', apparently, where it doesn't let you go through a platform for N frames after landing on it, but shielding nullifies the counter, and moreover, you can initiate the platform-fall input while the shield is up.

 

[tha_carter]

I found, the easiest way to do the shield dropping is to L (or shield) on the ground, Jump out of shield while continuing to hold shield until you touch the ground/platform. If you press A (attack) you will do Z-air, and you will INSTANTLY shield as you touch the ground. This allows you to do the fast possible shield so you can utilize the drop.

 

[0RLY]

Uh dude, how is that different from landing with a shield with ANY attack? All of Samus' aerials are lagless and your method doesn't do anything out of the ordinary. It's just buffering.

We don't have any issues with shielding, it's the drop part that's somewhat confusing. Rohins said that in order to shield drop, you have to: Shield, angle the Shield down, tap down on the control stick while the Shield is angled. I bet there's some trick with the C-stick too... but that's just my inner Melee thoughts.

 

[tha_carter]

Sorry, i forgot to mention you should hold down just before your shield animation starts. Its will cancel the z-air and then drop through immediately.

And Samus aerials arent 'lagless', they just have minimal landing lag. And Buffering the shield almost completely erases any lag.

Either way, its just the method i found to be the easiest.

 

[Rohins]

Uh dude, how is that different from landing with a shield with ANY attack? All of Samus' aerials are lagless and your method doesn't do anything out of the ordinary. It's just buffering.

We don't have any issues with shielding, it's the drop part that's somewhat confusing. Rohins said that in order to shield drop, you have to: Shield, angle the Shield down, tap down on the control stick while the Shield is angled. I bet there's some trick with the C-stick too... but that's just my inner Melee thoughts.

My bad, I worded it pretty sloppy. While in shield just move the left stick down slowly. Slow enough that you don't spot dodge but quick enough that it doesn't just move your shield down.

 

[Jasona]

just like in melee, i'm too lazy and skillless to learn shield dropping. though i'm certain it is faster than my method. my method involves walking forward slightly to cancel the lag and then falling through the platform
platform zair'ing/canceling

 

[0RLY]

Oh okay. That clears up a lot. To me an aerial is lagless if it has less that twice the landing lag of a normal land. The shield occurs after the landing lag, so it's doesn't really erase any lag. It's still buffering.

Okay, I can shield drop semi-consistently now. Thanks Rohins.

@ Jasona: So, it's replacing Melee's djcpmc with zair.

 

[tha_carter]

Jasona, id say that method is better for pursuing your opponent, the shield dropping seems to be better for mid range camping. FYI it actually helps ALOT for snakes who like to cook grenades. Which i saw alot of last tourney, with possibly the best snake around.

Another technique ive been using with alot of success lately, is shorthop b-airs to b-reversal. Most opponents with think after the b-air samus is punishable and try to approach her. But theres a little time (if done correctly) before samus touches the ground. You can use this time to do a b-reversal.

 

[0RLY]

A b-reversed what?

Samus
Neutral – No
Side – No
Up – Yes
Down – No

Don't lie to yourself. Shooting a missile/charge shot in the other direction is just turning around. It's not a B-reversal.

 

[n00b]

^ this list makes no sense. Of course Samus can reverse her neutral B, and side B.. I don't even know what a reversed up B looks like. What is that list about?

 

[tha_carter]

Lol, i dont know you well enough to know whether or not youre trolling.

And what difference does an UpB-reversal make? lol, the hitbox is the same on both sides. Its not like Marths....

 

[Rohins]

Lol, i dont know you well enough to know whether or not youre trolling.

And what difference does an UpB-reversal make? lol, the hitbox is the same on both sides. Its not like Marths....

B reversals tend to alter your momentum significantly (...reverse it)

It's not just doing a B move in the opposing direction, Samus doesn't need any techniques to do that (as n00b and 0RLy already stated)

On the metagame topic...what do you fellow Samus mains thing of her roll? I had always hated it and tried to use it as little as possible but I feel that this has caused me to neglect some potential if this move has good uses.

Also, what you do you guys typically do out of a spotdodge? I have been using spotdodge upB more and have been getting some good results. I don't particularly like these techniques but since rolling and spotdodging is a lot stronger this time around I need to remove this false stigma of them being by default bad moves...

 

[The Milk Monster]

B reversals tend to alter your momentum significantly (...reverse it)

It's not just doing a B move in the opposing direction, Samus doesn't need any techniques to do that (as n00b and 0RLy already stated)

On the metagame topic...what do you fellow Samus mains thing of her roll? I had always hated it and tried to use it as little as possible but I feel that this has caused me to neglect some potential if this move has good uses.

Also, what you do you guys typically do out of a spotdodge? I have been using spotdodge upB more and have been getting some good results. I don't particularly like these techniques but since rolling and spotdodging is a lot stronger this time around I need to remove this false stigma of them being by default bad moves...

I dont particularly main Samus, but I do love playing her, and am working on maining her.
I try not to use the dodge roll as much as possible, but when I do, right when I'm done rolling I try to set a bomb, and it'll pop me backwards, ruining approaches.
That or I use a bomb as a dodge in a sense, and then zair while in the air.
And out of a spotdodge, I'll either down smash, up tilt, or up b like you said Rohins.

 

[n00b]

The only time I purposefully roll is when I short hop smash missile cancel approaching a falco -> buffered roll towards falco -> fsmash or sh bair depending on whether or not he threw out a reflector or if the missile hits him.

I'm pretty sure if you shsmc -> roll and he reflects it, you'll roll through the reflector and the missile and you can punish up close with whatever, but keep in mind you're gonna be facing the other way.. so I prefer upangled fsmash, but I suppose a buffered pivot dtilt would suffice too.

 

[tha_carter]

Sorry, slight terminology issue...Reversed B better? lol...

As for rolling; i avoid it. Too easy to punish. Short-hop air dodging is much more effect, especially considering you can cancel the airdodge at any point with a z-air.

A situation i would use it; is to get from long range to mid-range(z-air range) against an opponent spamming a projectile. Never in close combat.

 

[Hive]

B reversals tend to alter your momentum significantly (...reverse it)

It's not just doing a B move in the opposing direction, Samus doesn't need any techniques to do that (as n00b and 0RLy already stated)

On the metagame topic...what do you fellow Samus mains thing of her roll? I had always hated it and tried to use it as little as possible but I feel that this has caused me to neglect some potential if this move has good uses.

Also, what you do you guys typically do out of a spotdodge? I have been using spotdodge upB more and have been getting some good results. I don't particularly like these techniques but since rolling and spotdodging is a lot stronger this time around I need to remove this false stigma of them being by default bad moves...

I don't really like her roll.... it seems to be really easy to punish and it sort of reminds me of the same problems her melee roll had
I still use it occasionally when I'm out of range of the enemy and am rolling away if I want to avoid projectiles or traps sometimes though...
spot dodge is fun though ^^

 

[Serris]

Serris knows when to roll. Serris uses roll at every freaking opportunity. Serris believes Samus's roll is underrated. Serris talks in the third person.

 

[Sago]

dashing twords someone and roleing back super quick is always funny

 

[Jasona]

i only roll in very special circumstances and a few times when i want my opponent to think that i'm still considering rolling, even though i'm not

 

[tha_carter]

Alright, two questions;

What do you think Samus' best way to refresh stale attacks? (Fox has lasers, Marth has Dancing blade...etc)

And WHEN should you use projectiles against opponents with reflectors?

 

[Solo Assass1n]

Alright, two questions;

What do you think Samus' best way to refresh stale attacks? (Fox has lasers, Marth has Dancing blade...etc)

And WHEN should you use projectiles against opponents with reflectors?

Homing missiles from further away is always safe, since they hardly get a benefit from reflecting. At mid to short range, projectiles should probably be replaced with just Z-Airs.

 

[0RLY]

dashing twords someone and roleing back super quick is always funny

I find this contradictory.

Alright, two questions;

What do you think Samus' best way to refresh stale attacks? (Fox has lasers, Marth has Dancing blade...etc)

And WHEN should you use projectiles against opponents with reflectors?

Spam. Samus's uncharged shots decay her fully charged shots... right?

Normally. Use as much as you'd like, as long as you follow with zair immediately afterwards.

EDIT: @ page 7

Turn around: Directional input occurs before the special, allowing you to use the special in the opposite direction. Missiles automatically fire in whichever direction you tilt the control stick, as evidenced by B-sticking.
B-Reversal: Directional input occurs after the special, changing your air momentum as well and may or may not change the direction in which you attack. i.e.: Lucas' wavebounced PK fire

 

[Throwback]

Homing missiles from further away is always safe, since they hardly get a benefit from reflecting. At mid to short range, projectiles should probably be replaced with just Z-Airs.

projectiles against reflector characters is a good subject. For example I play mario a lot:
- HMC is fairly safe, can be used to get a free zair if the mario always capes projectiles.
- HMC -> HM is pretty good as well, depending on the timing the 2nd missile will often hit (if mario capes the 1st).
- Charged shot up close is generally better since it reflected less often. However if you can hit the 'headshot' height consistently, it is very effective from mid range - mario has time to cape but it hits anyway.

I don't play the other reflector characters a lot but I think similar things would apply, except I don't know if spacies have a 'headshot' gap in their reflectors.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Not sure if anyone knew this, cause I posted about it and no one knew about it, you can sticky C4 Samus's missiles with Snake.
I'll try to get a video of it.

 

[n00b]

^ WTF? Homing C4?

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yep I saw it happen.

 

[tha_carter]

Yes i agree homing missiles are very good against people with reflectors. I usually fullhop my homing missile, and then z-air before i touch the ground. It usually baits a reflector. And if theyre reflected after you shoot them from the top of a full hop; theyll just be reflected into the ground.

@0rly
I disagree, spam isnt the answer. To expect to hit your opponent with 9 projectiles (not including z-air because it doesnt refresh moves) is ridiculous.

I say the BEST way to refresh moves is to grab. Two grabs at above 90% should mean fully replenished moves. And yes, uncharged shots do decay fully charged shots.

 

[tha_carter]

Not sure if anyone knew this, cause I posted about it and no one knew about it, you can sticky C4 Samus's missiles with Snake.
I'll try to get a video of it.

Snake can sticky pretty much anything as long as its at shoulder height... Including pikmin, edges of stages, and even his own grenades. Its just ridiculous to assume it can be pulled off in-game.

 

[Jasona]

Alright, two questions;

What do you think Samus' best way to refresh stale attacks? (Fox has lasers, Marth has Dancing blade...etc)

And WHEN should you use projectiles against opponents with reflectors?

homings to bring out the reflector, then zair to make them feel sad or you could kick the reflector, if the reflected homing arcs away just right. homings pwn reflectors because it doesn't do any good to reflect them

i've never really had a problem with stale attacks. i only think about it when they're at high %. usually, i'm either building damage with projectiles or trying to gimp. so it may be that during the 75% of the time that i'm honing my projectile game, i'm refreshing my moves

 

[The Milk Monster]

Snake can sticky pretty much anything as long as its at shoulder height... Including pikmin, edges of stages, and even his own grenades. Its just ridiculous to assume it can be pulled off in-game.

Yeah it did happen on accident, but it was still pretty crazy, I am going to get a video of it asap.