Advancing Samus' Metagame

[Undrdog]

The only risk associated with doing that n00b being PowerShielded. That move leaves you open for most Smashes, on potential pwnage from certain characters.

 

[n00b]

^ Very true, good point. I figure it might help against people that are grab-heavy and sit in shield.. Perhaps the sweep of the dsmash can poke under their shield if they let it degenerate for a bit too long. Even so, it's better to find a situation or use for a move than to set it aside as useless..

What's cool about the dsmash is you can do it out of dash pivot cancels, and even then you can mix it up with grabs if they try to powershield. It sounds difficult, I know, but there are always new approaches to consider, right?

 

[tha_carter]

Okay, almost everyone knows that Samus is a projectile user, so they will usually dash in to prevent being hit by too much spam. I start the game by charging up my beam by 1 level, then retreating to the ledge. I use some understage zairs, and ledge hop SM/charge shots. My first combo is usually a ledge hop uair/fair to some other fancy mumbo jumbo.

What about if youre against a good gimper? MK/Marth...

I usually do some ledge retreating in my game, but youll learn REAL quick not to do it against some characters. What would you do then?

My latest improvement has come from spacing. That is, do your utmost to stay out of grab range (ie short range). Set up half-length zairs into d-tilt range, dash away from people who like to short-hop air-dodge or drop full-hopped ff dairs onto you etc. Counter-offense is the other option - upB for full-hoppers, uair, nair etc.

I perform much better when I play to always stay out of grab range, since samus' terrible grab speed puts you in trouble vs every character except yoshi, zss and samus (I think).

It's not possible to stay out of close range all the time, I just do my best.

Samus has a VERY underrated Close Combat game. I think you should try being more aggressive for a while. Mid Range is Actually Samus' WORST position. I think you need a healthy mix of Close/Long range battle to be a good Samus.

I don't have time to read everything, and this is all based on my current playstyle, but..
I do not in any way think the pivot grab is useless. The pivot grab is an awesome tool if combined with good spacing and reaction time. It helps after retreating a whiffed aerial or if your opponent tries to punish something and fails.. It gets Samus out of close range. I use it a lot. :\

As for pivot dsmash, I do this.. because you get a long slide with the dsmash, and it's a good alternative to dash attack because it's harder to shield grab it. Dsmash obviously should never be used for a kill, and because it can't KO anyway, spam it for damage + breathing room. Samus needs breathing room.

But are you using it against people experienced in the matchup? It comes out fairly slow, and all they have to do is jump, theres no reason for anybody who's experienced in the matchup to be caught by a pivot grab. Only reckless/inexperienced players.

And im going to try the dsmash out, see what happens, because of late people are learning to defend against a dash attack that goes past the opponent. It'd be a nice mixup.

The only risk associated with doing that n00b being PowerShielded. That move leaves you open for most Smashes, on potential pwnage from certain characters.

The cooldown time for a dsmash isnt that bad, expecially considering the fact he riskes grabs with 2.5 seconds of lag.

^ Very true, good point. I figure it might help against people that are grab-heavy and sit in shield.. Perhaps the sweep of the dsmash can poke under their shield if they let it degenerate for a bit too long. Even so, it's better to find a situation or use for a move than to set it aside as useless..

What's cool about the dsmash is you can do it out of dash pivot cancels, and even then you can mix it up with grabs if they try to powershield. It sounds difficult, I know, but there are always new approaches to consider, right?

How about a Block/Grab happy Olimar?

You cant poke threw that shield AND he WILL grab you if it is done. Ive almost given up on the olimar matchup with samus......

=\

 

[tha_carter]

Another thing i tend to do when recovering is using bombs instead of using my double jump, and recovering fairly low. Wait until im directly under the ledge than using my double jump (and Uair if needed) than using the UpB. It works great against good gimpers and people with spikes. Most people are afraid to try and gimp if youre that low.

 

[Undrdog]

@Carter - I PowerShield Samus' jabs and get in hits in between...

 

[Hive]

But are you using it against people experienced in the matchup? It comes out fairly slow, and all they have to do is jump, theres no reason for anybody who's experienced in the matchup to be caught by a pivot grab. Only reckless/inexperienced players.
\

unless you completely whiff the pivot grab your enemy shouldn't have the opportunity to jump over it... ^^ if the person is in range of the grab their only chance is to spot dodge it... which leaves very little time afterwards to punish the grab....
Even if the person is in range and he/she tries to jump it at the same time you start the pivot grab.. the pivot grab hitbox will still likely hit them, before they can escape it vertically
I don't think there is enough time to use a short hop as a reaction though if they are in range... especially when people's reaction to seeing an attack come at them is to usually shield first- which makes them vulnerable to the grab anyways...
basically... just be smarter about using it is all.
you make it sound like the grab moves at like 2 mph or something... it doesn't. Its ending lag is the main problem, the startup lag is not really THAT bad imo.
ps N00b is not a noob

 

[Throwback]

Samus has a VERY underrated Close Combat game. I think you should try being more aggressive for a while. Mid Range is Actually Samus' WORST position. I think you need a healthy mix of Close/Long range battle to be a good Samus.

=\

Can you elaborate? To me there are very few options at close range. You can jab (which I do a fair bit), you can short-hop something (actually not bad because samus has a VERY quick jump animation) or you can d-smash. The other option is upB.

The biggest problem is that you can't grab before you get hit by something. This means that your opponent can shield every attack, and if they watch samus, spot-dodge your grab. So your option for hitting an opponent is a) hit them as they try and hit you, or b) hit them in their lag from a move. The opponent, on the other hand, can do a) and b) very successfully since a lot of samus's moves lag (d-smash, up-b, down-tilt, f-tilt), as well as using option c) grab, which goes through your shields. Statistically speaking, over time pretty much every opponent has the advantage within grab range.

IMO samus (theoretically) makes up for her ****house close game with an amazing range game (eg zair).

Mid-range is samus's strong area. super-range tilts, a fantastic dash attack and zair every time your opponent makes a mistake. I'm sure her strengths and weaknesses appear different depending on which character you are playing against though.

 

[n00b]

I don't think you know the usefulness of the pivot grab in terms of spacing and punishment. I don't know if this will help my case, but I can just throw out examples of when I use pivot grabs. For example, a single initial jab connecting sets up for a pivot grab. Most people would cancel their second jab with an up B or a dtilt, but these options are not always the best. Up B still leaves you floating so you might be just as vulnerable, and a dtilt at certain percentages is a waste of freshness. If you can land a pivot grab you can put your opponent where you want them to be (offstage, up in the air while you charge B, grab release to dtilt for KO, etc) and you can use samus's chops to regenerate stale moves. Anyway, a single jab would usually trigger a shield response OR a punish response from your opponent. If you jab cancel to dash away to pivot, Samus's long grab range should catch the opponent.
I've been experimenting with it, but uhm.. I have a vid for an example I guess:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74doocfV5M @ 0:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx_5gid3MSo @ 2:21

 

[tha_carter]

@Carter - I PowerShield Samus' jabs and get in hits in between...

Powershielding a Jab isnt as easy as you make it sound, but that would definately be a good idea.

unless you completely whiff the pivot grab your enemy shouldn't have the opportunity to jump over it... ^^ if the person is in range of the grab their only chance is to spot dodge it... which leaves very little time afterwards to punish the grab....
Even if the person is in range and he/she tries to jump it at the same time you start the pivot grab.. the pivot grab hitbox will still likely hit them, before they can escape it vertically
I don't think there is enough time to use a short hop as a reaction though if they are in range... especially when people's reaction to seeing an attack come at them is to usually shield first- which makes them vulnerable to the grab anyways...
basically... just be smarter about using it is all.
you make it sound like the grab moves at like 2 mph or something... it doesn't. Its ending lag is the main problem, the startup lag is not really THAT bad imo.
ps N00b is not a noob

Samus' cant grab an aerial opponent with her beam, even if theyre just 2 inches about ground. Unless she gets them with her cannon, in which case a pivot Fsmash would be a MUCH better option. I dont know what youre talking about; spot dodge is NOT their only option, nor their best option.

And short hop is only one button press away, as i said; IF theyre skilled in the matchup, theyd use it. Its obvoiusly people instinct to shield. But that isnt a person knowledgeable in the matchup.

Can you elaborate? To me there are very few options at close range. You can jab (which I do a fair bit), you can short-hop something (actually not bad because samus has a VERY quick jump animation) or you can d-smash. The other option is upB.

The biggest problem is that you can't grab before you get hit by something. This means that your opponent can shield every attack, and if they watch samus, spot-dodge your grab. So your option for hitting an opponent is a) hit them as they try and hit you, or b) hit them in their lag from a move. The opponent, on the other hand, can do a) and b) very successfully since a lot of samus's moves lag (d-smash, up-b, down-tilt, f-tilt), as well as using option c) grab, which goes through your shields. Statistically speaking, over time pretty much every opponent has the advantage within grab range.

IMO samus (theoretically) makes up for her ****house close game with an amazing range game (eg zair).

Mid-range is samus's strong area. super-range tilts, a fantastic dash attack and zair every time your opponent makes a mistake. I'm sure her strengths and weaknesses appear different depending on which character you are playing against though.

As i said, a good samus, has a good MIX of close AND long range. As you pointed out, if samus approaches an opponent with full shield, she's at a massive disadvantage. BUT, a few super missiles and a z-air would diminish their shield just enough to make them more cautious.

At this point if you went in for a close range string, itd be more effective. Something id do is shorthop, fastfall a D-air. Which would hit theyre head and allow me to follow up. Chances are though, since the person is shield conscience they'll if they see the dair coming, but since its fastfall'd, id be able to catch them with a f-tilt or even a dash attack.

Playing at long or short range too long is not a good way to play. As i said; a MIX of them both is what makes her good.

I don't think you know the usefulness of the pivot grab in terms of spacing and punishment. I don't know if this will help my case, but I can just throw out examples of when I use pivot grabs. For example, a single initial jab connecting sets up for a pivot grab. Most people would cancel their second jab with an up B or a dtilt, but these options are not always the best. Up B still leaves you floating so you might be just as vulnerable, and a dtilt at certain percentages is a waste of freshness. If you can land a pivot grab you can put your opponent where you want them to be (offstage, up in the air while you charge B, grab release to dtilt for KO, etc) and you can use samus's chops to regenerate stale moves. Anyway, a single jab would usually trigger a shield response OR a punish response from your opponent. If you jab cancel to dash away to pivot, Samus's long grab range should catch the opponent.
I've been experimenting with it, but uhm.. I have a vid for an example I guess:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74doocfV5M @ 0:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx_5gid3MSo @ 2:21

First video was perfect use of the pivot grab, moving away from a laggy attack and punishing it. Thats the time i use the pivot grab as well.

I havent really tried the Jab>pivot grab, but ill try it out.

Im not saying pivot grab is useless, im saying she has better options. Looking at that second video i could see TONNES of better ways to approach the situation than the one used. Including the pivot grab. If he was experienced in the matchup, he'd know that after a jab you should shield AND JUMP OoS. That avoids all samus has. Instead he rolled. Good way to punish an inexperience (in the matchup) player.

In the second video, i would have Jab>Flit. It would have connected, pushed him into my partner, pervented him from getting a chance to block, been less punishable if i did miss, and put on the same percentage as a throw. Theres just better options. Although it LOOKS pretty nice

 

[tha_carter]

Im not against grabbing;

IF i ever am gonna grab, id do a running grab. Half the start up time, HALF THE COOL DOWN TIME, and 92% of the original distance. Thats not losing much, considering how much you gain from doing so. In addition, you can basically pivot grab. Just pivot, take a half a step and then grab. Its just something to consider.

 

[Undrdog]

The Pivot Grab falls very much in line with Sauna's thread about spacing via walking. Against an opponent who doesn't grasp Samus' spacing abilities, something as simple as the Pivot Grab can do wundrs. ^_^

 

[tha_carter]

The Pivot Grab falls very much in line with Sauna's thread about spacing via walking. Against an opponent who doesn't grasp Samus' spacing abilities, something as simple as the Pivot Grab can do wundrs. ^_^

I agree

10secondcooldownlags

 

[Orichalcum]

Yeah pivot grab is awesome, i use it almost all the time if i want to grab. its sick . i agree

 

[Throwback]

As i said, a good samus, has a good MIX of close AND long range. As you pointed out, if samus approaches an opponent with full shield, she's at a massive disadvantage. BUT, a few super missiles and a z-air would diminish their shield just enough to make them more cautious.

At this point if you went in for a close range string, itd be more effective. Something id do is shorthop, fastfall a D-air. Which would hit theyre head and allow me to follow up. Chances are though, since the person is shield conscience they'll if they see the dair coming, but since its fastfall'd, id be able to catch them with a f-tilt or even a dash attack.

Playing at long or short range too long is not a good way to play. As i said; a MIX of them both is what makes her good.

That's a nice mindgame I agree, but every other character can do exactly the same thing, including pressure shields.

It doesn't alter the fact that samus has a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage on throws whenever she is in this distance, never mind the ending lag on d-tilt, no hitstun on jab etc. This puts your opponent at a statistical advantage - that is to say, with equally skilled opponents who can mindagame as well as each other, the one with the usable shield-grab will win (over time) more often than the one without.

For example, take 2 characters with the same moveset, except character A has a long-range, slow startup grab and Character B has a short-range, fast starting grab. At close range, with exactly the same skill, who wins the most out of 100 situations? The answer is character B.

Argument 1: Character A and Character B don't have the same moveset in Brawl. This is true, Samus generally has a worse close-range moveset than other characters (jab, up-B? Even shdair is slow), made worse by the fact that they can shield with almost no risk of being grabbed.

Argument 2: players never have the same skill. Absolutely true, and if your skill is high enough to overcome Samus' true and legitimate close-range disadvantage consistently over time, more power to you.

Disclaimer: I never said you will always lose a close range encounter. I just said you are statistically disadvantaged, therefore it is your benefit to stay away. Yes you will get in close in some situations, yes you will be on the offensive a certain amount of the time, but really why would you ever CHOOSE to be in grab range? Maybe to ledge-hop fair-smash or something, but generally speaking Samus players should be staying away.

Until I am convinced otherwise.


tl;dr: Samus is statistically disadvantaged within the opponent's grab range, if they have a normal speed grab.

 

[0RLY]

Okay.... so the future of Samus is spamming and grabbing. Gotcha.

 

[Undrdog]

Okay.... so the future of Samus is spamming and grabbing. Gotcha.

And super awesome combos that do roughly fifteen percent in damage!

Also, who was it that made that amazing post about comboing with Zairs and following them up with a Zair?

 

[Sago]

lol i love this thread

 

[Throwback]

Okay.... so the future of Samus is spamming and grabbing. Gotcha.

I'm pretty sure no-one has been saying grabbing is a major feature of Samus's game. Using your ranged abilities definitely is though.

 

[tha_carter]

Alright, seems productive talk stopped, and trolling starts.

Ill stop too.

 

[Undrdog]

I've wondered as I've wandered and trolled throughout the Samus forums. "How can one even discuss 'Metagame'? Could it be that they don't actually understand what metagame is?" I've now come to the understanding that you guys don't understand what metagame is.

What you've been discussing are methods of attack and defense. The execution of the technical game if you will. Metagame isn't something that can be discussed with foresight. The metagame is seeing an opponent's method of attack and luring them into patterns.

As I've said many times on SWF now; "If the technical game is controlling your character, then the metagame is controlling your opponent." That cannot be discussed here. I heavily suggest you all to watch videos of high caliber players. M2K in particular can read an opponent's patterns and react accordingly.

With that in mind here's all I can really say about Samus' metagame. You need to apply as much pressure as possible while staying as far away from your opponent as possible. This is where Samus shines. Apply pressure and sneak in for combos. If you can't send your opponent away from you after your confrontations, then retreat. Don't force things. You want to psych your opponent out into thinking they can't approach you. Apply pressure at all times and don't allow them to think of a way to get through your offensive defense.

 

[tha_carter]

My objective was to discuss different ways to approach a situation, and react to an opponents approaches. And hopefully develop new methods along the way.

If Metagame wasnt the perfect word to use (which i believe it to be), i apologize.

****ty/pointless 'im better than ____' , spam and trolls in the samus boards is probably the reason we're second lowest on tournament rankings.

Either way, if you think being a troll will help more, than enjoy your trolling and ever-progressing samus.

 

[0RLY]

Well things I notice with Samus mainers...

We don't charge our smashes - Other characters seem to have success with this...
We don't use empty jumps - Some people KNOW you're going to spike them if you jump offstage. Try waiting a little longer. Remember to hold down during the ascent of your jump so when you try to spike later, you won't fastfall. Empty jumps could also help with approaching. (See footstool comment)
We don't use Screw Attack like it's spammable - It is very spammable depending on who you're fighting against. Just don't hit your foe's shield/airdodge like an idiot, though. If your opponent is above you, use it. Later on in the match, stop. See if you can bait more airdodges this way. It might make kill setups easier.
We don't shield grab - Whenever I play a random CPU Samus, they always somehow shield grab my attacks. Just because your grab is slow doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that most characters can't do anything until they hit the ground after their aerial hits your shield, this gives you more than enough time to shield grab.
We don't spam from the ledge - You can perform understage zairs reeally easily. It's much safer than using Fair since you can't get grabbed if you're under the stage. I believe someone made a vid of this if you don't know how to do this. After your foe is fed up with your zair spam and retreats, you can return back to the stage with a ledge hop homing missile and begin your spam onslaught.
We don't go under the stage and up the other side - Mainly because it's slow, but an option is an option. Remember you can wall jump off that thingy underneath Battlefield. Yeah, I used that to set-up a zair edgeguard.
We don't footstool on purpose - After we spam and either you or your foe approaches, you can pretend to not know what you're doing and jump right into your opponent. Your foe can EASILY shield anything you might do and then grab you. Instead, you can footstool off their shield and immediately drop a bomb. Should they grab you, the bomb will inflict 10% to them and at most, you'll take 3% from pummels (Lucas has a wicked pummel). Then you'll get a free opportunity to dtilt, jab, dsmash, ftilt, screw attack, or dash attack. Everything else is too slow. At best, your foe may just keep shielding, allowing you to grab and let the bomb connect for 10% + pummel damage + throw damage. At worst, they could roll away. But that gives you more time to spam or if it's another Samus, a dashing shield to fsmash/grab/dtilt/whatever.

This HAS to help someone.

 

[Jasona]

samus is a beast. she continues getting faster every time i pick up the controller.
today, i swear i saw her platform cancel a quick-double-jump-FF-zair. i've got to figure this out. unfortunately, i returned undr's copy of brawl today, so it'll be awhile before i return to practicing. platform canceling would make samus so much faster that i would become giddy. absurd things would begin to happen during my matches. the combos. the mindgames and spacing. the raw speed.
samus is too good and there is still so much left to study and discover. like bombs, i haven't put much time into them, but i've got this feeling that they're tweaked.
she's tweaked. i'm tweaked. today was awesome. i've stepped up my game tremendously. if only i could feel out how to incorporate shuffled zairs, then i would be delirious

 

[Undrdog]

Well things I notice with Samus mainers...

We don't charge our smashes - Other characters seem to have success with this...
We don't use empty jumps - Some people KNOW you're going to spike them if you jump offstage. Try waiting a little longer. Remember to hold down during the ascent of your jump so when you try to spike later, you won't fastfall. Empty jumps could also help with approaching. (See footstool comment)
We don't use Screw Attack like it's spammable - It is very spammable depending on who you're fighting against. Just don't hit your foe's shield/airdodge like an idiot, though. If your opponent is above you, use it. Later on in the match, stop. See if you can bait more airdodges this way. It might make kill setups easier.
We don't shield grab - Whenever I play a random CPU Samus, they always somehow shield grab my attacks. Just because your grab is slow doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that most characters can't do anything until they hit the ground after their aerial hits your shield, this gives you more than enough time to shield grab.
We don't spam from the ledge - You can perform understage zairs reeally easily. It's much safer than using Fair since you can't get grabbed if you're under the stage. I believe someone made a vid of this if you don't know how to do this. After your foe is fed up with your zair spam and retreats, you can return back to the stage with a ledge hop homing missile and begin your spam onslaught.
We don't go under the stage and up the other side - Mainly because it's slow, but an option is an option. Remember you can wall jump off that thingy underneath Battlefield. Yeah, I used that to set-up a zair edgeguard.
We don't footstool on purpose - After we spam and either you or your foe approaches, you can pretend to not know what you're doing and jump right into your opponent. Your foe can EASILY shield anything you might do and then grab you. Instead, you can footstool off their shield and immediately drop a bomb. Should they grab you, the bomb will inflict 10% to them and at most, you'll take 3% from pummels (Lucas has a wicked pummel). Then you'll get a free opportunity to dtilt, jab, dsmash, ftilt, screw attack, or dash attack. Everything else is too slow. At best, your foe may just keep shielding, allowing you to grab and let the bomb connect for 10% + pummel damage + throw damage. At worst, they could roll away. But that gives you more time to spam or if it's another Samus, a dashing shield to fsmash/grab/dtilt/whatever.

This HAS to help someone.

Most productive post in the Samus forums ever. ...after all of mine. ^_^

 

[Rohins]

Well things I notice with Samus mainers...

We don't charge our smashes - Other characters seem to have success with this...
We don't use empty jumps - Some people KNOW you're going to spike them if you jump offstage. Try waiting a little longer. Remember to hold down during the ascent of your jump so when you try to spike later, you won't fastfall. Empty jumps could also help with approaching. (See footstool comment)
We don't use Screw Attack like it's spammable - It is very spammable depending on who you're fighting against. Just don't hit your foe's shield/airdodge like an idiot, though. If your opponent is above you, use it. Later on in the match, stop. See if you can bait more airdodges this way. It might make kill setups easier.
We don't shield grab - Whenever I play a random CPU Samus, they always somehow shield grab my attacks. Just because your grab is slow doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that most characters can't do anything until they hit the ground after their aerial hits your shield, this gives you more than enough time to shield grab.
We don't spam from the ledge - You can perform understage zairs reeally easily. It's much safer than using Fair since you can't get grabbed if you're under the stage. I believe someone made a vid of this if you don't know how to do this. After your foe is fed up with your zair spam and retreats, you can return back to the stage with a ledge hop homing missile and begin your spam onslaught.
We don't go under the stage and up the other side - Mainly because it's slow, but an option is an option. Remember you can wall jump off that thingy underneath Battlefield. Yeah, I used that to set-up a zair edgeguard.
We don't footstool on purpose - After we spam and either you or your foe approaches, you can pretend to not know what you're doing and jump right into your opponent. Your foe can EASILY shield anything you might do and then grab you. Instead, you can footstool off their shield and immediately drop a bomb. Should they grab you, the bomb will inflict 10% to them and at most, you'll take 3% from pummels (Lucas has a wicked pummel). Then you'll get a free opportunity to dtilt, jab, dsmash, ftilt, screw attack, or dash attack. Everything else is too slow. At best, your foe may just keep shielding, allowing you to grab and let the bomb connect for 10% + pummel damage + throw damage. At worst, they could roll away. But that gives you more time to spam or if it's another Samus, a dashing shield to fsmash/grab/dtilt/whatever.

This HAS to help someone.

Charging smashes: You need a good smash to charge. If people want to start doing this my guess would be dsmash? I only tend to do fully charged smashes after a shield break but maybe there is more to be explored here. Actually now that you mention it, I've never done a fully charged upsmash.

Empty Jumps: Very useful for making yourself less predictable.

Spammable Screw Attack: I spammed screw attack more back in the day. Against aggressive people it's great you can upB and land another one since they will try to land on top of you with attack. Good call on triggering the airdodge to punish. Oh also, upBing to a platform (ahem battlefield) allows you to recover quicker since you land earlier (duh).

Shield Grab: Perfect shield makes Samus' shield grab more feasible. It's also important to keep track of moves that you can shield grab regardless (MK's rising fair) and that the enemy doesn't have to be touching the ground for the grab hitbox to trigger.

Ledge Spam: every day I'm hustlin.

Under Level: I find this more useful in teams since it allows you some immunity. Not that I do it often but I imagine it would be pretty easy to edge hog in 1v1?

Foot Stools on Purpose: You got me, I don't footstool on purpose ;_; This should probably be explored. Does anyone footstool out of shield with Samus?

 

[tha_carter]

I actually use the footstool purposefully, mostly on aggressive edge-guarders(since you can footstool an aerial attack). Works wonders against MK and a Marth, since both of them seem to think gimping a Samus is a joke.

Also, i use it to combo into D-air. If you footstool an airborne opponent you can drop a bomb and stop the jumping animation earlier. By the time the person can jump or UpB, they are interrupted by the bombs explosion. Most of the time i follow this up with a FF'd D-air. Ive used it PLENTY of times, in friendlies and tourneys and its never been escaped.

 

[Sago]

i really like the bomb canceling the jump animation of the footstool i never thought about that, i use it all the time to cancel my jump off the ledge like when theres a snake with a nair waiting for me

 

[0RLY]

I like dashing up to someone's face after they land from an airdodge and charge an fsmash just out of their grab range. They'll sit in their shield stupified. Eventually, they'll get nervous enough and try to grab (one way ticket to failure) or jump out of shield (you need to release that A button lightning fast). If they continue to sit in their shield, you should be able to shield stab them. Rolls have like 4 frames of no invulnerability at the start-up most of the time. No human has a reaction time like that, so you're gonna need luck for this one. Don't use on characters with large grab ranges.... or good rolls. Hello Samus dittos. ._.

I agree that Undr's posts are awesome

every day I'm hustlin.

I lol'd

 

[Julz]

We don't shield grab - Whenever I play a random CPU Samus, they always somehow shield grab my attacks. Just because your grab is slow doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that most characters can't do anything until they hit the ground after their aerial hits your shield, this gives you more than enough time to shield grab.

Shield Grab: Perfect shield makes Samus' shield grab more feasible. It's also important to keep track of moves that you can shield grab regardless (MK's rising fair) and that the enemy doesn't have to be touching the ground for the grab hitbox to trigger.

Cool, we really need those grab pummels to refresh our kill moves. Especially for dtilt, since it's useful at low percentages.

 

[Aran]

Shield grab -> I was under the impression that Up-B OOS was a much more reliable option than shieldgrabbing. Just because we can't shieldgrab doesn't mean we don't have another option out of it.

Charging smashes -> I thought about this one a lot, since I do it a fair amount with other characters. The truth is, Samus' F-Smash doesn't have enough range. People can easily space it if they see the charge coming, and even if they don't see it coming, it's still one of the easiest F-Smashes to whiff. It's not exactly a Bowser F-Smash. I do occasionally charge my D-Smashes, which can catch rollers. In general though, to defeat a charging D-Smash, you just jump and punish with anything, and most dash attacks clash or outprioritize it. That's typically why I don't charge my smashes, although I'd love it if someone else came up with a good way to use them.

Empty Jumps -> I agree completely. We should be using these more.

 

[tha_carter]

For the record, computers shield grab so often, because of how in-humanly often, the powershield. So i dont think thats an reliable option. Id say UpB or Nair out of shield works much better.

And as for empty jumps, i use them for opponents whom sheild grab often. Id jump infront of them, double jump, watch them grab out of their shield, and fast fall a dair. Other than that, id always suggest using one of your three long range attacks. Keeps the pressure on your opponent to approach, while racking up some easy percentages.

 

[tha_carter]

Updated Original Post

 

[Jasona]

i figured out how to platform cancel on non-moving platforms today. or rather, i found a fast way to platform cancel on non-moving platforms. quick double jump to FF zair. the FF to zair needs to be done as early as possible and the zair must follow immediately, otherwise you'll just FF through the platform
the zair has a waveland, so thats kinda cool with platform canceling. wish i could figure out how to fall through a platform immediately after landing though. i could get some real 3+ zair combos with platform canceling

 

[Undrdog]

i figured out how to platform cancel on non-moving platforms today. or rather, i found a fast way to platform cancel on non-moving platforms. quick double jump to FF zair. the FF to zair needs to be done as early as possible and the zair must follow immediately, otherwise you'll just FF through the platform
the zair has a waveland, so thats kinda cool with platform canceling. wish i could figure out how to fall through a platform immediately after landing though. i could get some real 3+ zair combos with platform canceling

It was so amazing it broke my controller.

 

[Rohins]

i figured out how to platform cancel on non-moving platforms today. or rather, i found a fast way to platform cancel on non-moving platforms. quick double jump to FF zair. the FF to zair needs to be done as early as possible and the zair must follow immediately, otherwise you'll just FF through the platform
the zair has a waveland, so thats kinda cool with platform canceling. wish i could figure out how to fall through a platform immediately after landing though. i could get some real 3+ zair combos with platform canceling

If you want to circumvent the landing lag press shield right after landing, release, then drop through. I'll have to try your ffzair style platform cancel, because that sounds amazing.

edit: I'm aware it's not really lag from landing, but it doesn't allow you to fall through a platform immediately. If you shield then go through (or *gasp* shield drop) you can go through quicker.

 

[0RLY]

Shield grab -> I was under the impression that Up-B OOS was a much more reliable option than shieldgrabbing. Just because we can't shieldgrab doesn't mean we don't have another option out of it.

Charging smashes -> I thought about this one a lot, since I do it a fair amount with other characters. The truth is, Samus' F-Smash doesn't have enough range. People can easily space it if they see the charge coming, and even if they don't see it coming, it's still one of the easiest F-Smashes to whiff. It's not exactly a Bowser F-Smash. I do occasionally charge my D-Smashes, which can catch rollers. In general though, to defeat a charging D-Smash, you just jump and punish with anything, and most dash attacks clash or outprioritize it. That's typically why I don't charge my smashes, although I'd love it if someone else came up with a good way to use them.

Empty Jumps -> I agree completely. We should be using these more.

Some attacks outrange the screw attack or can push you backwards. Shield grabs are nice then, even without a powershield. A couple frames isn't affecting it that much, and it's really easy to powershield in brawl.

Okay, charged Smashes probably do suck, then.

i figured out how to platform cancel on non-moving platforms today. or rather, i found a fast way to platform cancel on non-moving platforms. quick double jump to FF zair. the FF to zair needs to be done as early as possible and the zair must follow immediately, otherwise you'll just FF through the platform
the zair has a waveland, so thats kinda cool with platform canceling. wish i could figure out how to fall through a platform immediately after landing though. i could get some real 3+ zair combos with platform canceling

from below the platform, or while ON the platform? Zair won't waveland, it's impossible. That's like saying you can wavedash out of an L-cancel at the same time in Melee.

If you want to circumvent the landing lag press shield right after landing, release, then drop through. I'll have to try your ffzair style platform cancel, because that sounds amazing.

edit: I'm aware it's not really lag from landing, but it doesn't allow you to fall through a platform immediately. If you shield then go through (or *gasp* shield drop) you can go through quicker.

Samus? Landing lag? Preposterous. Shielding would take too long, imo. It's 9 frames '~'. How do you shield drop?

 

[Jasona]

from below the platform, or while ON the platform?

i quick double jump FF from below and cancel whatever move (they all auto-cancel) on the platform

Zair won't waveland, it's impossible

when i land a zair while DI'ing back, i slide backwards. thats what i mean when i say waveland.

 

[Undrdog]

Sauna has... issues with letting go of old terminology. Oh the times we've argued over the term "SHFFL" in Brawl...

And to help clarify, he's buffering directional input during the Zair so that he slides upon landing. This makes it so that while you're benefiting from the buffered directional input, you don't surrender your ability to add new input. What this produces is an effect very similar to wavelanding. I'm not even sure Sauna fully understands how he does it. His method of learning isn't exactly an orthodox one... He screws around until something odd happens. Then tries to replicate it. I hate it, but it works.

 

[DelxDoom]

What Jasona is talking about is exactly what I was trying to say in the first reply of this thread >.>

Thanks for figuring out the timing for it though, it's easily one of the craziest things imo Samus has got.

 

[Rohins]

Samus? Landing lag? Preposterous. Shielding would take too long, imo. It's 9 frames '~'. How do you shield drop?

It's not "lag" moreso than a certain amount of frames you are unable to fall through the platform. For example, do a missile cancel on a platform then try to fall through. It should take a while before it actually allows you fall through the platform. If you shield then release you can fall through the moment you release shield or...

Shield Dropping: Lightly pressing down while on a platform and in shield. If you do it right, you fall through the platform without having to let go of shield. A good way to practice is to first get it so you can angle your shield down as opposed to spotdodge. Once you can do that, while on the platform work on angling your shield down and moving the stick all the way down as fast as possible.

Once you get the rhythm down you can just subtly tap down while in shield and you will fall through a platform.