Advancing Samus' Metagame

[0RLY]

Yes i agree homing missiles are very good against people with reflectors. I usually fullhop my homing missile, and then z-air before i touch the ground. It usually baits a reflector. And if theyre reflected after you shoot them from the top of a full hop; theyll just be reflected into the ground.

@0rly
I disagree, spam isnt the answer. To expect to hit your opponent with 9 projectiles (not including z-air because it doesnt refresh moves) is ridiculous.

I say the BEST way to refresh moves is to grab. Two grabs at above 90% should mean fully replenished moves. And yes, uncharged shots do decay fully charged shots.

You don't need 9 missiles to hit, that's just ridiculous. Just 5 or 7 attacks is enough. Besides, who even counts their stale move counter? Also, I disagree with you. To expect to land 2 grabs at above 90% is ridiculous. Maybe it's just me. I frequently play Warios, so they constantly play the "don't get grabbed or get grab-released to ****" game.

Basically, use any move you don't expect to kill. Screw Attack, dash attack, uair, nair, whatever. People have different killing preferences.

 

[The Milk Monster]

You don't need 9 missiles to hit, that's just ridiculous. Just 5 or 7 attacks is enough. Besides, who even counts their stale move counter? Also, I disagree with you. To expect to land 2 grabs at above 90% is ridiculous. Maybe it's just me. I frequently play Warios, so they constantly play the "don't get grabbed or get grab-released to ****" game.

Basically, use any move you don't expect to kill. Screw Attack, dash attack, uair, nair, whatever. People have different killing preferences.

I haven't played Samus enough to know, did they like nerf her nair crazy bad?
Cause in Melee it hit like 5 trains.

 

[tha_carter]

homings to bring out the reflector, then zair to make them feel sad or you could kick the reflector, if the reflected homing arcs away just right. homings pwn reflectors because it doesn't do any good to reflect them

i've never really had a problem with stale attacks. i only think about it when they're at high %. usually, i'm either building damage with projectiles or trying to gimp. so it may be that during the 75% of the time that i'm honing my projectile game, i'm refreshing my moves

I see what you mean, most projectile spammers dont have an issue with refreshing kill moves.

You don't need 9 missiles to hit, that's just ridiculous. Just 5 or 7 attacks is enough. Besides, who even counts their stale move counter? Also, I disagree with you. To expect to land 2 grabs at above 90% is ridiculous. Maybe it's just me. I frequently play Warios, so they constantly play the "don't get grabbed or get grab-released to ****" game.

Basically, use any move you don't expect to kill. Screw Attack, dash attack, uair, nair, whatever. People have different killing preferences.

I doubt anyone counts their stale move counter, but you should stay aware which reliable kill moves are decayed.

And i said two grabs would fully replenish your moves. Not that you should expect to land two. ONE unexpected grab usually means 4-5 hits plus the throw. Thats six moves refreshed. Honestly, grabbing REALLY helps me.

I mix it up; with a bit of spam and f-tilts around 80-90%. But use ANY chance i get to land a grab.

I haven't played Samus enough to know, did they like nerf her nair crazy bad?
Cause in Melee it hit like 5 trains.

Samus' Nair is even better.

I was playing 0Rly 1v1; he hit me with one Nair, i lost all 3 of my stocks, he won, and my controller blew up.

Play the game!

 

[0RLY]

And i said two grabs would fully replenish your moves. Not that you should expect to land two. ONE unexpected grab usually means 4-5 hits plus the throw. Thats six moves refreshed. Honestly, grabbing REALLY helps me.

Just so you know, if you perform rapid pummels, only the first hit count towards the stale move counter. You have to pause in between hits for it to count towards stale moves. You'll have to pummel at Mario's speed. If you perform Fox's standard A combo, only the first hit of the multi-kicks will count towards your stale move counter. So holding A would add 3 hits to the stale move counter. Pikachu would add 1 hit. The same is true for Samus, mashing A really fast will only count as 1 hit. This is also true for those with fast pummels like Lucario and Lucas.

I mix it up; with a bit of spam and f-tilts around 80-90%. But use ANY chance i get to land a grab.

Samus' Nair is even better.

The train-like priority, range, and kill-power is all gone. Samus' new nair is like... well it's hard to compare since every move in Melee has SOME sort of use. But if I had to compare, I'd say Kirby's nair minus the priority and combo-ability. It sucks, but it still has uses.

I was playing 0Rly 1v1; he hit me with one Nair, i lost all 3 of my stocks, he won, and my controller blew up.

Play the game!

I would've saved the replay, but the shrapnel from the exploded controller hit the reset button on the Wii. Not my fault.

 

[Calciphoce]

If you ask me, things like advancing metagames just come naturally. Eventually someone will stumble upon some new uber **** Samus tech or something and BAM Samus isn't so underused.

But I'm ridiculously optimistic.

 

[Sago]

metagame advancement comes from a pooled effort to advance the character as a whole, thank god that the samus bords are actualy trying to do something <3 you all

 

[0RLY]

I have a better chance to improve Samus' metagame if I throw my wavebird into a washing machine with a bunch of toddler toys and no water. Maybe then the toys will push random buttons on the controller enough so that Samus will get a new advanced technique. Of course, we will be recording the washing machine so that we can tell what button inputs were used for the AT.

 

[n00b]

^ super wavewash

 

[VirisKnite]

I have a better chance to improve Samus' metagame if I throw my wavebird into a washing machine with a bunch of toddler toys and no water. Maybe then the toys will push random buttons on the controller enough so that Samus will get a new advanced technique. Of course, we will be recording the washing machine so that we can tell what button inputs were used for the AT.

Greatest idea evar! But why only toddler toys? If you want to do this as real experiment, then the controller would be the constant, and the different toys would be the variable. Yes, this seems to be the most efficient (more complicated) way to get the desired results.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Greatest idea evar! But why only toddler toys? If you want to do this as real experiment, then the controller would be the constant, and the different toys would be the variable. Yes, this seems to be the most efficient (more complicated) way to get the desired results.

It shouldn't be toddler toys, then we'll all have to get the same toys to test it and see if it works!
Get something big, cheap, and expendable..
Lets just throw a bunch of wavebirds in there!

 

[Rohins]

I have a better chance to improve Samus' metagame if I throw my wavebird into a washing machine with a bunch of toddler toys and no water. Maybe then the toys will push random buttons on the controller enough so that Samus will get a new advanced technique. Of course, we will be recording the washing machine so that we can tell what button inputs were used for the AT.

I'm totally disappointed. My first time reading it I didn't see toys after toddler.

 

[n00b]

I think we're doing a fine job of advancing Samus's metagame with the recent string of replies, if I say so myself.

 

[tha_carter]

So i had to a chance to play one of the best Samus' in North America... Skip to the third paragraph if you dont care about the story

I went to a fairly big tourney in Canada, where Ally completely dominated...again. Notably, 2 stocking Ambrose (amasing player) and three stocking Needles of Juntah (MI player). Anyways, I had an EXTREMELY hard pool, it had Lain (placed 3rd), Chaotic (placed 4th), and Pnight(placed 7th). And still, somehow made it out of pools. I lost to Lain's 3De so bad; i switched to pikachu.

But unfortunately, that put me in a bad spot for brackets. I eventually had to face the top seeded MK (lost 2-1) and the top King Dedede (lost 2-1). Alot of people were counterpicking with 3de and Metaknight. Anyways i got to ditto a top level melee player in Brawl, his samus was really good.

Things i noticed is it SEEMED like he didnt care which move he used. He would use the strongest move in all situations he could get away with it. Meaning; at low percents, if he could hit you with a charged shot, f-smash or d-tilt, he would. But during killing percentages he stayed HEAVILY aware which kill move was stale. And focused in on hitting those which werent used up. Another thing i noticed was shield dashing. He would shield dash, but because of samus slow grab; we would use d-tilt, AA combo, or even the rare UpB OOS to punish.

The questions i have is;
Should you worry about keeping your kill moves fresh?
And
Once you approach an opponent with a shield dash, what do you do? (as most characters would just grab)

 

[MRS1]

I always seem to whiff my f smashes out of shield dashes, I've been trying to stop f smashing out of it. Maybe if I stutter step f smash it would be better? How often do you guys stutter step f smash? Anyway, I'm going to try to get more f tilts out of shield.

 

[0RLY]

It shouldn't be toddler toys, then we'll all have to get the same toys to test it and see if it works!
Get something big, cheap, and expendable..
Lets just throw a bunch of wavebirds in there!

Different results would give a higher chance for success. Whether it works or not is unimportant, the result is what's important!

I'm totally disappointed. My first time reading it I didn't see toys after toddler.

Hmm... that could alter the results greatly. I'll leave it up to you to test this one!

So i had to a chance to play one of the best Samus' in North America... Skip to the third paragraph if you dont care about the story
No name?
I went to a fairly big tourney in Canada, where Ally completely dominated...again. Notably, 2 stocking Ambrose (amasing player) and three stocking Needles of Juntah (MI player). Anyways, I had an EXTREMELY hard pool, it had Lain (placed 3rd), Chaotic (placed 4th), and Pnight(placed 7th). And still, somehow made it out of pools. I lost to Lain's 3De so bad; i switched to pikachu.
Ally is too good. So are NoJ and Lain.

But unfortunately, that put me in a bad spot for brackets. I eventually had to face the top seeded MK (lost 2-1) and the top King Dedede (lost 2-1). Alot of people were counterpicking with 3de and Metaknight. Anyways i got to ditto a top level melee player in Brawl, his samus was really good.
Gasp! Tourney players have match-up experience!

Things i noticed is it SEEMED like he didnt care which move he used. He would use the strongest move in all situations he could get away with it. Meaning; at low percents, if he could hit you with a charged shot, f-smash or d-tilt, he would. But during killing percentages he stayed HEAVILY aware which kill move was stale. And focused in on hitting those which werent used up. Another thing i noticed was shield dashing. He would shield dash, but because of samus slow grab; we would use d-tilt, AA combo, or even the rare UpB OOS to punish.

The questions i have is;
Should you worry about keeping your kill moves fresh?
And
Once you approach an opponent with a shield dash, what do you do? (as most characters would just grab)

That's a good way to play, considering that other characters have more reliable ways to rack up damage... Use whatever move is best for the situation. Your foe probably has enough match-up experience with Samus to know that Samus is difficult to combo and that a solid, powerful attack is enough to punish you. The question is, who can perform this more consistently. That brings me to your next point. I don't keep my kill moves fresh, I'll just keep fighting until I find an opportunity for a kill. My playstyle supports that method of killing.

Shield dashing is extremely effective against those who can't punish it well. If you want to avoid being grabbed, you could shield the dash after you get behind your foe. After that you could use a jab, tilt, backwards dsmash (which actually hits twice due to awkward positioning of hitbox), or whatever attack you deem appropriate. If you're still getting shieldgrabbed, try dashing past your foe and performing a pivot grab. It's effective when your opponent is about to land from a jump, since they're likely to shield after they see you dash right at them.

I always seem to whiff my f smashes out of shield dashes, I've been trying to stop f smashing out of it. Maybe if I stutter step f smash it would be better? How often do you guys stutter step f smash? Anyway, I'm going to try to get more f tilts out of shield.

A shield dash isn't a setup. It's more or less a mindgame. I shutter step my fsmashes, ftilt out of shield is nice, whether or not you stop fsmashing out of shield depends on your success with it.

 

[tha_carter]

I always seem to whiff my f smashes out of shield dashes, I've been trying to stop f smashing out of it. Maybe if I stutter step f smash it would be better? How often do you guys stutter step f smash? Anyway, I'm going to try to get more f tilts out of shield.

Id say only f-smash if you get off a powershield. Which is often, when you shield dash. And i only stutter step if i seems too far away. Otherwise, you might miss. Samus' f-smash is SO good that if the opponent is TOO close, she'll miss.

.........

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=90855
Theres the east coast Canadian PR. He's the thread maker.

And in case you didnt see it;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczeRnDqz9Q
Ally vs NOJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAAsWdfqZbQ
Lain didnt make it far enough to face Ally, but this is ambrose. He's a really good IC that made it to the finals.

That's a good way to play, considering that other characters have more reliable ways to rack up damage... Use whatever move is best for the situation. Your foe probably has enough match-up experience with Samus to know that Samus is difficult to combo and that a solid, powerful attack is enough to punish you. The question is, who can perform this more consistently. That brings me to your next point. I don't keep my kill moves fresh, I'll just keep fighting until I find an opportunity for a kill. My playstyle supports that method of killing.

Shield dashing is extremely effective against those who can't punish it well. If you want to avoid being grabbed, you could shield the dash after you get behind your foe. After that you could use a jab, tilt, backwards dsmash (which actually hits twice due to awkward positioning of hitbox), or whatever attack you deem appropriate. If you're still getting shieldgrabbed, try dashing past your foe and performing a pivot grab. It's effective when your opponent is about to land from a jump, since they're likely to shield after they see you dash right at them.

I agree, keeping your kil moves fresh just doesnt work out for samus.

And fyi, NEVER attempt a pivot grab against chaingrabbers. NEVER.


UPDATED FIRST POST