Advancing Samus' Metagame

[tha_carter]

Usually id keep these tips to myself, but im going to share three of the many things i utilize while playing as her.

A Different Way to Spam/Space

In short; SHORT HOPPING DOUBLE B-AIRS! They work wonders. Nobody uses them, but theyre a REALLY reliable way to space when an opponent is within killing percentages. It Works much like marth's double f-airs. In effect, the second b-air can be used while fading backwards, to keep spacing perfect. Its timing is fairly strict, but it CAN be mastered, and is worth it, as a sweet spotted b-air has good knockback, aerial range, and takes off 14%.

Aerial Dodge Canceling

During any point of an airborne dodge, you may cancel it out with a z-air. This can be used for mindgames, and well as perfectly timing a z'-air after a projectile has been launched at you. Its ideal use is against players that can usually out-camp samus. Its also VERY useful to recover with.

Grabbing An Airborne Opponent
Previously, i thought this wasnt possible to do. But, after more testing i found that if you let the canon on her arm touch the opponent while in the air, they WILL be grabbed. There are only two real uses that ive found for this so far. One of them is being able to chain grab, heavier/fastfaling opponents at lower percentages and also being able to grab snake out of his recovery (which for obvious reasons is a REALLY good abiity)

the only problem is that if samus has her back to the person and jumps they are going to expecting bairs... since she has a relative lack of moves in that situation :/ so it comes in pretty predictable after awhile... pivot grabs are good here too for mid distance if the person is running after you...

I find pivot grabs to be very useful if someone is trying to tail you a lot of times they will run right into it, and its really hard to stop a run into a spot dodge after seeing the grab animation start... It shouldn't get punished hardly ever if its used right... imo
Also its hard to get punished with anything but quick moves since by the time the an opponent can end the spot dodge, dash and set up a devastating move your grab animation is usually about ended... wouldn't advise it against some characters though, like DDD who it will allow the possibility of a CG... by I find it pretty useful against like snake for example

Bombs have 2 "states", timed state, and proxy state. During the timed state, they do nothing on contact obviously, but once the proxy state is flagged, then anyone who touches them will take damage. (However if they shield during proxy mode, it won't cause the bomb to explode (but you'll hear the shield-hit sound), then if they release their shield too soon, the explosion will get them)

Err the proxy state comes from itselft. If you would see it on a timeline it would be something like that:

lay bomb___________proxy___explosion.

After some they just turn proximity and deal damage.

One thing I feel I almost never see Sami doing, which I think could be useful is pivot Dsmashes. The rear hitbox of dsmash has the same knockback as a Melee Dsmash, from what I've seen, so if you anticipate a little bit earlier, you can knock someone behind you pretty well. It can set up for or continue edgeguards, and it can also kinda set up for combos.

Does anyone know any setups into up angled fsmash? It kills at 110 percent.

ANSWER:
Fast fall a F-air>Jab>Up angled fsmash. It will connect if the fair connects. Either that or wait for an opponent to get jabbed while airborne.

Well things I notice with Samus mainers...

We don't charge our smashes - Other characters seem to have success with this...
We don't use empty jumps - Some people KNOW you're going to spike them if you jump offstage. Try waiting a little longer. Remember to hold down during the ascent of your jump so when you try to spike later, you won't fastfall. Empty jumps could also help with approaching. (See footstool comment)
We don't use Screw Attack like it's spammable - It is very spammable depending on who you're fighting against. Just don't hit your foe's shield/airdodge like an idiot, though. If your opponent is above you, use it. Later on in the match, stop. See if you can bait more airdodges this way. It might make kill setups easier.
We don't shield grab - Whenever I play a random CPU Samus, they always somehow shield grab my attacks. Just because your grab is slow doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that most characters can't do anything until they hit the ground after their aerial hits your shield, this gives you more than enough time to shield grab.
We don't spam from the ledge - You can perform understage zairs reeally easily. It's much safer than using Fair since you can't get grabbed if you're under the stage. I believe someone made a vid of this if you don't know how to do this. After your foe is fed up with your zair spam and retreats, you can return back to the stage with a ledge hop homing missile and begin your spam onslaught.
We don't go under the stage and up the other side - Mainly because it's slow, but an option is an option. Remember you can wall jump off that thingy underneath Battlefield. Yeah, I used that to set-up a zair edgeguard.
We don't footstool on purpose - After we spam and either you or your foe approaches, you can pretend to not know what you're doing and jump right into your opponent. Your foe can EASILY shield anything you might do and then grab you. Instead, you can footstool off their shield and immediately drop a bomb. Should they grab you, the bomb will inflict 10% to them and at most, you'll take 3% from pummels (Lucas has a wicked pummel). Then you'll get a free opportunity to dtilt, jab, dsmash, ftilt, screw attack, or dash attack. Everything else is too slow. At best, your foe may just keep shielding, allowing you to grab and let the bomb connect for 10% + pummel damage + throw damage. At worst, they could roll away. But that gives you more time to spam or if it's another Samus, a dashing shield to fsmash/grab/dtilt/whatever.

I don't think you know the usefulness of the pivot grab in terms of spacing and punishment. I don't know if this will help my case, but I can just throw out examples of when I use pivot grabs. For example, a single initial jab connecting sets up for a pivot grab. Most people would cancel their second jab with an up B or a dtilt, but these options are not always the best. Up B still leaves you floating so you might be just as vulnerable, and a dtilt at certain percentages is a waste of freshness. If you can land a pivot grab you can put your opponent where you want them to be (offstage, up in the air while you charge B, grab release to dtilt for KO, etc) and you can use samus's chops to regenerate stale moves. Anyway, a single jab would usually trigger a shield response OR a punish response from your opponent. If you jab cancel to dash away to pivot, Samus's long grab range should catch the opponent.
I've been experimenting with it, but uhm.. I have a vid for an example I guess:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74doocfV5M @ 0:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx_5gid3MSo @ 2:21

Shield Grab: Perfect shield makes Samus' shield grab more feasible. It's also important to keep track of moves that you can shield grab regardless (MK's rising fair) and that the enemy doesn't have to be touching the ground for the grab hitbox to trigger.

I actually use the footstool purposefully, mostly on aggressive edge-guarders(since you can footstool an aerial attack). Works wonders against MK and a Marth, since both of them seem to think gimping a Samus is a joke.

Also, i use it to combo into D-air. If you footstool an airborne opponent you can drop a bomb and stop the jumping animation earlier. By the time the person can jump or UpB, they are interrupted by the bombs explosion. Most of the time i follow this up with a FF'd D-air. Ive used it PLENTY of times, in friendlies and tourneys and its never been escaped.

i figured out how to platform cancel on non-moving platforms today. or rather, i found a fast way to platform cancel on non-moving platforms. quick double jump to FF zair. the FF to zair needs to be done as early as possible and the zair must follow immediately, otherwise you'll just FF through the platform
the zair has a waveland, so thats kinda cool with platform canceling. wish i could figure out how to fall through a platform immediately after landing though. i could get some real 3+ zair combos with platform canceling

Shield Dropping: Lightly pressing down while on a platform and in shield. If you do it right, you fall through the platform without having to let go of shield. A good way to practice is to first get it so you can angle your shield down as opposed to spotdodge. Once you can do that, while on the platform work on angling your shield down and moving the stick all the way down as fast as possible.

Once you get the rhythm down you can just subtly tap down while in shield and you will fall through a platform.

just like in melee, i'm too lazy and skillless to learn shield dropping. though i'm certain it is faster than my method. my method involves walking forward slightly to cancel the lag and then falling through the platform
platform zair'ing/canceling

Q: Are there any uses for Samus' horrid roll?

A:The only time I purposefully roll is when I short hop smash missile cancel approaching a falco -> buffered roll towards falco -> fsmash or sh bair depending on whether or not he threw out a reflector or if the missile hits him.

I'm pretty sure if you shsmc -> roll and he reflects it, you'll roll through the reflector and the missile and you can punish up close with whatever, but keep in mind you're gonna be facing the other way.. so I prefer upangled fsmash, but I suppose a buffered pivot dtilt would suffice too.

Q: When should you use projectiles against someone with a reflector?

A:homings to bring out the reflector, then zair to make them feel sad or you could kick the reflector, if the reflected homing arcs away just right. homings pwn reflectors because it doesn't do any good to reflect them

Q: Whats the best way to refresh your kill moves?

A:I say the BEST way to refresh moves is to grab. Two grabs at above 90% should mean fully replenished moves.

State Something to Help advance her Metagame (Best Ways to start a Match, Good Approaches, Matchup Help, Stage Help)

BONUS

Another thing that I've found can really help to improve Samus' metagame is to press up and down on the D-pad reallyreally fast. Four repetitions should do the trick. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Zero suit Samus is my favourite Character

Q:I haven't played Samus enough to know, did they like nerf her nair crazy bad?
Cause in Melee it hit like 5 trains.

A:I was playing 0Rly 1v1; he hit me with one Nair, i lost all 3 of my stocks, he won, and my controller blew up.

I have a better chance to improve Samus' metagame if I throw my wavebird into a washing machine with a bunch of toddler toys and no water. Maybe then the toys will push random buttons on the controller enough so that Samus will get a new advanced technique. Of course, we will be recording the washing machine so that we can tell what button inputs were used for the AT.

^ super wavewash

 

[DelxDoom]

alright

We gotta figure out how to do hyper platform zairs and missiles. You know, perfectly space the jump/double jumps so that you can do lots of zairs/missiles on platforms, like they did with super missiles in melee.

Shorthop instant uair -> land with nair, bair, uair, maybe dair if you don't fast fall
shorthop instant bair -> land with nair, bair, uair

bomb mindgames

 

[Deception]

When not approaching with Zair or missiles, a good mindgame is to shfair and DI backwards. It works even better against someone who is approaching and can easily avoid your projectiles.

 

[Throwback]

short-hop bair on;y hits if your opponent is tall, kinda like rising zair.

My tip is that when your opponent jumps it often gives you time to dash away to short-hop HMC into the usual options from there.

 

[tha_carter]

alright

We gotta figure out how to do hyper platform zairs and missiles. You know, perfectly space the jump/double jumps so that you can do lots of zairs/missiles on platforms, like they did with super missiles in melee.

Shorthop instant uair -> land with nair, bair, uair, maybe dair if you don't fast fall
shorthop instant bair -> land with nair, bair, uair

bomb mindgames

Im fairly sure these tactics are possible on Lylat Cruise. Im pretty sure theres a video of this floating around. And FYI to combo any of those moves after a Uair, you should DI in the appropriate direction BEFORE the last hit. Works wonders.

When not approaching with Zair or missiles, a good mindgame is to shfair and DI backwards. It works even better against someone who is approaching and can easily avoid your projectiles.

Actually, i find the best way to use the sh Fair and DI backwards is while you hanging on the ledge. She has so many better short hop options on stage. This has very little range, and is the only short hop aerial that cant connect into another aerial.

short-hop bair on;y hits if your opponent is tall, kinda like rising zair.

My tip is that when your opponent jumps it often gives you time to dash away to short-hop HMC into the usual options from there.

Actually a short hop B-air isnt always meant to hit your opponent. It more so used to keep your enemy at a respectable distanct. Even if theyre short and try to punish after the first b-air, the second one WILL get them, or push theyre shield back enough where you wont be punished.


Thanks for contributing!

 

[Hive]

Good work carter these are already know of course, but not posted many places... so its helpful
my thoughts?:
short hop bairs- are pretty good when you are approaching an opponent with your back to him... the only problem is that if samus has her back to the person and jumps they are going to expecting bairs... since she has a relative lack of moves in that situation :/ so it comes in pretty predictable after awhile... pivot grabs are good here too for mid distance if the person is running after you...
air dodging zairs- I do ALL the time lol, its good for avoiding enemy spam....although zair usually eats through oncoming spams anyways...
Grabbing someone out of the air- I don't really see to much use here.... I'm assuming you mean grabbing someone when you are grounded and the enemy is in the air right? (at first I thought you meant you could grab someone while you were jumping lol now THAT would have rocked ) but then I realized what you meant and all my dreams of down throwing someone off the ledge faded ; ; lol
It could be used against snake's recovery like you said, but usually in that situation if he is recovering within grab distance of the ledge and at that level I'd be going for the spike... its very easy to hit and is a lot more effective
I'm not sure what you mean by chaingrab though...? I didn't think samus has any cgs... but vids maybe?

 

[Deception]

Im fairly sure these tactics are possible on Lylat Cruise. Im pretty sure theres a video of this floating around. And FYI to combo any of those moves after a Uair, you should DI in the appropriate direction BEFORE the last hit. Works wonders.



Actually, i find the best way to use the sh Fair and DI backwards is while you hanging on the ledge. She has so many better short hop options on stage. This has very little range, and is the only short hop aerial that cant connect into another aerial.


Actually a short hop B-air isnt always meant to hit your opponent. It more so used to keep your enemy at a respectable distanct. Even if theyre short and try to punish after the first b-air, the second one WILL get them, or push theyre shield back enough where you wont be punished.


Thanks for contributing!

I meant you should use it when an opponent is approaching and getting through your projectiles. Fastfalling helps since you have more options when the last hit doesn't hit. This isn't really meant to be offensive, more defensive and a mix up to the usual Zairs and SHC Missiles.

 

[tha_carter]

Good work carter these are already know of course, but not posted many places... so its helpful
my thoughts?:
short hop bairs- are pretty good when you are approaching an opponent with your back to him... the only problem is that if samus has her back to the person and jumps they are going to expecting bairs... since she has a relative lack of moves in that situation :/ so it comes in pretty predictable after awhile... pivot grabs are good here too for mid distance if the person is running after you...
air dodging zairs- I do ALL the time lol, its good for avoiding enemy spam....although zair usually eats through oncoming spams anyways...
Grabbing someone out of the air- I don't really see to much use here.... I'm assuming you mean grabbing someone when you are grounded and the enemy is in the air right? (at first I thought you meant you could grab someone while you were jumping lol now THAT would have rocked ) but then I realized what you meant and all my dreams of down throwing someone off the ledge faded ; ; lol
It could be used against snake's recovery like you said, but usually in that situation if he is recovering within grab distance of the ledge and at that level I'd be going for the spike... its very easy to hit and is a lot more effective
I'm not sure what you mean by chaingrab though...? I didn't think samus has any cgs... but vids maybe?

I THINK PIVOT GRABS SHOULD NEVER BE USED. The ending lag of the grab is just not worth it. Its the longest cool down time for any grab in the game, and if youre facing someone who is good at punishing (fox, snake, mk) it could mean your stock.

Other than that, lol; yeah not grabbing while SAMUS is in the air. That'd be gold. And youre right, spiking is usually the BEST option. But if the snake is coming in from high, and you time the grab properly he'll jump-break and fall to his doom.

As for chaingrabbing. Its not really chaingrabbing as much as it is a good follow up. If you down throw a heavy opponent, or a fast faller at low percentages, they fall directly in front of you, and if you press grab immediately, youll grab them out of the air. Im fairly sure its escapeable; BUT nobody's every escaped it when i do it.

I meant you should use it when an opponent is approaching and getting through your projectiles. Fastfalling helps since you have more options when the last hit doesn't hit. This isn't really meant to be offensive, more defensive and a mix up to the usual Zairs and SHC Missiles.

Thats true, it does make for a fairly good defensive option. Although two short-hopped b-airs work ALOT better for me, personally.

What would you do against an opponent like marth if he gets through your projectiles? He out ranges the f-air by far, and it wont deter him from approaching whatsoever.

 

[Deception]

I THINK PIVOT GRABS SHOULD NEVER BE USED. The ending lag of the grab is just not worth it. Its the longest cool down time for any grab in the game, and if youre facing someone who is good at punishing (fox, snake, mk) it could mean your stock.

Other than that, lol; yeah not grabbing while SAMUS is in the air. That'd be gold. And youre right, spiking is usually the BEST option. But if the snake is coming in from high, and you time the grab properly he'll jump-break and fall to his doom.

As for chaingrabbing. Its not really chaingrabbing as much as it is a good follow up. If you down throw a heavy opponent, or a fast faller at low percentages, they fall directly in front of you, and if you press grab immediately, youll grab them out of the air. Im fairly sure its escapeable; BUT nobody's every escaped it when i do it.



Thats true, it does make for a fairly good defensive option. Although two short-hopped b-airs work ALOT better for me, personally.

What would you do against an opponent like marth if he gets through your projectiles? He out ranges the f-air by far, and it wont deter him from approaching whatsoever.

Against someone like Marth who usually approaches with long ranged fairs, a better option might be running away and setting up missiles and zairs. If you want to get in close right now and take a risk, short hop bomb and DI backwards. It might confuse your opponent and allow you to punish them with a grab or such.

 

[tha_carter]

Against someone like Marth who usually approaches with long ranged fairs, a better option might be running away and setting up missiles and zairs. If you want to get in close right now and take a risk, short hop bomb and DI backwards. It might confuse your opponent and allow you to punish them with a grab or such.

You would risk a BOMB against a MARTH? If thats an evenly skilled match, he WILL ^B, F-smash, or <B you.... garunteed from such a close range.

Have you ever tried 2 b-airs in this situation?

 

[Deez.]

I just started using samus. and she should be in a higher tier in my opinion shes really good if you know how to use her moves correctly.

 

[Hive]

I THINK PIVOT GRABS SHOULD NEVER BE USED. The ending lag of the grab is just not worth it. Its the longest cool down time for any grab in the game, and if youre facing someone who is good at punishing (fox, snake, mk) it could mean your stock. .

I find pivot grabs to be very useful if someone is trying to tail you a lot of times they will run right into it, and its really hard to stop a run into a spot dodge after seeing the grab animation start... It shouldn't get punished hardly ever if its used right... imo
Also its hard to get punished with anything but quick moves since by the time the an opponent can end the spot dodge, dash and set up a devastating move your grab animation is usually about ended... wouldn't advise it against some characters though, like DDD who it will allow the possibility of a CG... by I find it pretty useful against like snake for example

 

[jiggz kirbz]

Zero suit Samus is my favourite Character

 

[jiggz kirbz]

When not approaching with Zair or missiles, a good mindgame is to shfair and DI backwards. It works even better against someone who is approaching and can easily avoid your projectiles.

Nothing to do with the subject but how do you geta picture sig?

 

[Throwback]

I agree you need the pivot grab in your arsenal. If you note a pattern that can be punished (like neutral-a chains), then set it up and land it. It has the effect of making your opponent not feel safe in yet another area.

 

[Jasona]

there must be something cool with the bombs. there just has to be. one day... although, i still haven't figured out the double hit that bombs sometimes have. can't even consistently do it.
bombs. somewhere in them is her god mode and its gonna be freaken great when we finally figure it out

 

[Tenki]

Aerial Dodge Canceling

During any point of an airborne dodge, you may cancel it out with a z-air. This can be used for mindgames, and well as perfectly timing a z'-air after a projectile has been launched at you. Its ideal use is against players that can usually out-camp samus. Its also VERY useful to recover with.

Grabbing And Airborne Opponent
Previously, i thought this wasnt possible to do. But, after more testing i found that if you let the canon on her arm touch the opponent while in the air, they WILL be grabbed. There are only two real uses that ive found for this so far. One of them is being able to chain grab, heavier/fastfaling opponents at lower percentages and also being able to grab snake out of his recovery (which for obvious reasons is a REALLY good abiity)

I've seen people use AD > Z-air alot. It's annoying.

Grabbing aerial opponents and pummel-releasing is nice near the edge. It can set up for stage spikes, edgehogs, or even just plain panic deaths (eg, if Fox/Wolf/Snake airdodge, if Ike uses F-air or N-air... lol).

 

[tha_carter]

I just started using samus. and she should be in a higher tier in my opinion shes really good if you know how to use her moves correctly.

This thread is for advancing the metagame she has. But for the record, she shouldnt be any higher, most of her matches are an uphill battle. Try facing an equally skilled Olimar, Lucas, Pikachu, or Metaknight.

I find pivot grabs to be very useful if someone is trying to tail you a lot of times they will run right into it, and its really hard to stop a run into a spot dodge after seeing the grab animation start... It shouldn't get punished hardly ever if its used right... imo
Also its hard to get punished with anything but quick moves since by the time the an opponent can end the spot dodge, dash and set up a devastating move your grab animation is usually about ended... wouldn't advise it against some characters though, like DDD who it will allow the possibility of a CG... by I find it pretty useful against like snake for example

Undoubtely, is POSSIBLE to do, but the risk/reward to it is just too small. The grab cooldown is 2.5 seconds. Thats a LONG time, lol. For the record, falcon's punch comes out in 2.1 seconds. A spot dodge or JUMP or even a poorly timed pivot grab could get ugly real quick.

Zero suit Samus is my favourite Character

Thanks for your input. But theres a ZSS board.

I agree you need the pivot grab in your arsenal. If you note a pattern that can be punished (like neutral-a chains), then set it up and land it. It has the effect of making your opponent not feel safe in yet another area.

Theres no reason to risk the Grab, when the most it can take off is 10%. While a super missile has zero lag if done properly and takes off the same amount. She has MUCH better options. But mixing it up is good, i guess. And its 'good' against predictable opponents, like you said. ID NEVER DO IT IN A SERIOUS GAME FYI.

there must be something cool with the bombs. there just has to be. one day... although, i still haven't figured out the double hit that bombs sometimes have. can't even consistently do it.
bombs. somewhere in them is her god mode and its gonna be freaken great when we finally figure it out

Bombs do have a sweetspot. But regardless, it requires the opponent to walk into the bomb, at the EXACT TIME OF EXPLOSION. Lmao, its just not a good move. But if you do find a technique to make them better; youd be my hero.

 

[SarahHarp]

there must be something cool with the bombs. there just has to be. one day... although, i still haven't figured out the double hit that bombs sometimes have. can't even consistently do it.
bombs. somewhere in them is her god mode and its gonna be freaken great when we finally figure it out

Bombs have 2 "states", timed state, and proxy state. During the timed state, they do nothing on contact obviously, but once the proxy state is flagged, then anyone who touches them will take damage. (However if they shield during proxy mode, it won't cause the bomb to explode (but you'll hear the shield-hit sound), then if they release their shield too soon, the explosion will get them)

 

[tha_carter]

Bombs have 2 "states", timed state, and proxy state. During the timed state, they do nothing on contact obviously, but once the proxy state is flagged, then anyone who touches them will take damage. (However if they shield during proxy mode, it won't cause the bomb to explode (but you'll hear the shield-hit sound), then if they release their shield too soon, the explosion will get them)

WOW. Thanks for this. Do tell more.

What in-game uses would this 'proxy state' have. And is there any way to trigger it w/o the shield?

 

[Orichalcum]

Err the proxy state comes from itselft. If you would see it on a timeline it would be something like that:

lay bomb___________proxy___explosion.

After some they just turn proximity and deal damage.

What in-game uses would this 'proxy state' have. And is there any way to trigger it w/o the shield?

I think the usefullness is in the word itself. If it wasnt for the proximity you had to exactly time the time it would need for the bomb as well as the spacing for the opponent to get hit by it.

**** it would be even more ****ed up as it is allready. the time between proximity and explosion is short but i couldnt imagine without it. its about 8 frames to be precise

 

[ph00tbag]

One thing I feel I almost never see Sami doing, which I think could be useful is pivot Dsmashes. The rear hitbox of dsmash has the same knockback as a Melee Dsmash, from what I've seen, so if you anticipate a little bit earlier, you can knock someone behind you pretty well. It can set up for or continue edgeguards, and it can also kinda set up for combos.

Another thing that I've found can really help to improve Samus' metagame is to press up and down on the D-pad reallyreally fast. Four repetitions should do the trick. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

 

[Hive]

Another thing that I've found can really help to improve Samus' metagame is to press up and down on the D-pad reallyreally fast. Four repetitions should do the trick. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

lol ^^ I'm surprised you can get that thing to work... takes me forever lol

edit: anyone notice how like half of samus board's threads have been closed lol ; ;, we should make a thread titled "Hive eats babies" or something and take bets to see who can guess how long til it gets shut down
I'm bored, I need something to talk about!
Samus' metagame is pretty set right now... until new ATs are found and new matchup discussions...it seems like most everything has already been said
; ;

 

[Throwback]

Theres no reason to risk the Grab, when the most it can take off is 10%. While a super missile has zero lag if done properly and takes off the same amount. She has MUCH better options. But mixing it up is good, i guess. And its 'good' against predictable opponents, like you said. ID NEVER DO IT IN A SERIOUS GAME FYI.

It's a risk vs reward thing. First, it makes your opponent think twice about chasing you down. That's a real benefit, despite not having a number. Second, a throw may only deal 10% but it sets up positioning and leads to a) zair or b) a punished air-dodge (if you punish with dash attack up+b combo, that's another 20-25%). Third, it may have 2.5 seconds lag but it comes out a lot faster than that (faster than SHSMC too, which is generally attacked through at close ranges). Due to the range, against most opponents you are risking an iuncharged smash.

After considering all that, you have to make a decision about whether it's worth it or not. I think it is on occasion, but certainly not regularly. Once you know your opponent never dashes after you, you can safely SHMC, land a bair vs predicted short-hop, etc.

tl;dr: it is worth it in serious matches, used sparingly.

 

[Throwback]

sorry double post

 

[Hive]

I think you guys underestimate her grab... yes it has lag at the end, but her range and how fast it comes out are both pretty impressive, not to mention almost all of her spams force an opportunity for a grab when the opponent shields... and it doesn't get punished as much as you would think used in the right circumstances.... ( depending on the opponents reaction time, the distance the opponent must cover to punish, and the lag from avoiding the grab... unless you missed completely...) Obviously don't use it to the point of being predictable... but I still find myself using this a lot...

edit: pivot grabs are pretty useful... and given the circumstance they are used in I don't think that it has too much higher of a risk of being punished then most of the moves in a situation where samus has her back turned at mid-distances......

 

[Aran]

I'd have to disagree with the startup being fast. The throw is probably one of the slowest ones I can think of. Olimar's throw is fast. ZSS has a pretty fast startup. But you can see Samus' throw startup and easily roll away from it even at close range.

 

[Hive]

@Aran- yea, you know what, that sounds right... I think I read that somewhere and it just sort of stuck... but it does seem slower than most grabs at the start... :/ however, I still don't have too much of a problem landing it...

 

[XKarasuX]

me to i don't have any trouble grabbin and the weird thing is my friends actual roll into it some times lol

and the fact that its slow is makes it a mind game (i guess not sure) but following a foes pattern makes it so much fun to get the grab on them

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Does anyone know any setups into up angled fsmash? It kills at 110 percent.

 

[tha_carter]

Err the proxy state comes from itselft. If you would see it on a timeline it would be something like that:

lay bomb___________proxy___explosion.

After some they just turn proximity and deal damage.



I think the usefullness is in the word itself. If it wasnt for the proximity you had to exactly time the time it would need for the bomb as well as the spacing for the opponent to get hit by it.

**** it would be even more ****ed up as it is allready. the time between proximity and explosion is short but i couldnt imagine without it. its about 8 frames to be precise

Alright, thanks for all the detail, im definately going to look into this more.

One thing I feel I almost never see Sami doing, which I think could be useful is pivot Dsmashes. The rear hitbox of dsmash has the same knockback as a Melee Dsmash, from what I've seen, so if you anticipate a little bit earlier, you can knock someone behind you pretty well. It can set up for or continue edgeguards, and it can also kinda set up for combos.

Another thing that I've found can really help to improve Samus' metagame is to press up and down on the D-pad reallyreally fast. Four repetitions should do the trick. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

I dont think Dsmash should ever be used as a KO move. An undiminished d-tilt is much more reliable/quick. Dsmash is only a good guard against rollers and to punish a missed grab at low percentages, as it can possibly hit twice.

And Lmao, getouttahereyouzssfanboy!

Samus' metagame is pretty set right now... until new ATs are found and new matchup discussions...i

Lol, her metagame is only 'set' if its given up on.

It's a risk vs reward thing. First, it makes your opponent think twice about chasing you down. That's a real benefit, despite not having a number. Second, a throw may only deal 10% but it sets up positioning and leads to a) zair or b) a punished air-dodge (if you punish with dash attack up+b combo, that's another 20-25%). Third, it may have 2.5 seconds lag but it comes out a lot faster than that (faster than SHSMC too, which is generally attacked through at close ranges). Due to the range, against most opponents you are risking an iuncharged smash.

After considering all that, you have to make a decision about whether it's worth it or not. I think it is on occasion, but certainly not regularly. Once you know your opponent never dashes after you, you can safely SHMC, land a bair vs predicted short-hop, etc.

tl;dr: it is worth it in serious matches, used sparingly.

In a serious match, people usually are aware of the matchup. They would know the best way to avoid samus' grab is to JUMP. Which is allot easier than spot dodging. Once they know this, they WILL punish much worse than a uncharged smash. Especially since her standing grab is VERY much avoidable.

edit: pivot grabs are pretty useful... and given the circumstance they are used in I don't think that it has too much higher of a risk of being punished then most of the moves in a situation where samus has her back turned at mid-distances......

Risk= an attack that takes 2+ seconds to connect. Which includes falcon punches, charged ike smashes, and luigi's uppercut.

Reward= 10% maximum

Those just dont balance out to me....lol

I'd have to disagree with the startup being fast. The throw is probably one of the slowest ones I can think of. Olimar's throw is fast. ZSS has a pretty fast startup. But you can see Samus' throw startup and easily roll away from it even at close range.

Jump, not roll.

me to i don't have any trouble grabbin and the weird thing is my friends actual roll into it some times lol

and the fact that its slow is makes it a mind game (i guess not sure) but following a foes pattern makes it so much fun to get the grab on them

Friends are not a problem to grab, thats not the issue. Lol, i mean i can lay bombs all day and my friends wil walk right into them. Its facing an opponent that KNOWS what to do.

Does anyone know any setups into up angled fsmash? It kills at 110 percent.

Fast fall a F-air>Jab>Up angled fsmash. It will connect if the fair connects. Either that or wait for an opponent to get jabbed while airborne.

 

[★J.G WentWorth★]

I know this usually doesn't have a huge impact on a match, but im just curious. How do you normally start your matches? I usually start with 2 homing missle in a full jump and 1 one more missle as I land, but sometimes I just start by charging my charge shot.

 

[Hive]

Risk= an attack that takes 2+ seconds to connect. Which includes falcon punches, charged ike smashes, and luigi's uppercut.

Reward= 10% maximum

Those just dont balance out to me....lol.

what are you talking about... @.@ your enemy isn't going to have time to spotdodge and then charge a falcon punch or charge and ike smash before you can shield...? they barely have enough time to do this if they started these things at the same time as your grab...
You're overaggagerating how punishable it is... it IS punishable, but not nearly by that much..
grabs if used in tandom with jab grabs can usually pull off 13% damage... a little less than a screw attack...
and if used in the right situations the rewards should definitely outway the costs.... more so if you're a spammy samus because any fthrow in a larger level will give you the spacing you need for at least 10% more damage in zairs and spam...

 

[Jasona]

I know this usually doesn't have a huge impact on a match, but im just curious. How do you normally start your matches? I usually start with 2 homing missle in a full jump and 1 one more missle as I land, but sometimes I just start by charging my charge shot.

i always start defensively
i never start with a full-jump double homing, just preference. i may use a SH homing. mindgame wise, i usually charge up a charge blast and cancel the charge whenever i feel like moving. throws people off, since samus can move in and out of charging so fast. plus, charge blasts that are just shy of fully charged don't cause samus to blink like those that are charged. getting anywhere over half a charge is also a fun game to play, as those tend to over power weak moves and projectiles and carry over into the opponent. whoring projectiles is the first game i play. gotta set up that wall and play it safe. SH a homing and immediately follow it up with an uncharged charge blast, the different speeds work nicely together. also works nicely with a zair thrown in
most of the time, i try to start the match by securing a safe place near the center of the screen. need to keep myself from getting cornered at the edge in the beginning. no telling where the game will start me. then i try to get the spacing game going with my opponent. make is that he believes that i can push him around. games no good if he just runs all over me and goes where ever he wants

lol @ feeling like i'm playing melee. same style of covering several areas at once with the different speeds of her projectiles and using her over powering speed and range, plus the broken up+b, to own. samus is too good, thats why i can never switch mains. she is just too good

 

[Throwback]

In response to the grab/pivot grab issue:

In a serious match, people usually are aware of the matchup. They would know the best way to avoid samus' grab is to JUMP. Which is allot easier than spot dodging. Once they know this, they WILL punish much worse than a uncharged smash. Especially since her standing grab is VERY much avoidable.



Risk= an attack that takes 2+ seconds to connect. Which includes falcon punches, charged ike smashes, and luigi's uppercut.

Reward= 10% maximum

Those just dont balance out to me....lol



Jump, not roll.


Friends are not a problem to grab, thats not the issue. Lol, i mean i can lay bombs all day and my friends wil walk right into them. Its facing an opponent that KNOWS what to do.

I actually find that friends are the ones that know the matchup avoid grabs better, once they realise how easy it is to do.

The basic idea behind using the pivot grab is to always assume your opponent is going to jump. Only when they stop doing that would you grab.

 

[tha_carter]

I know this usually doesn't have a huge impact on a match, but im just curious. How do you normally start your matches? I usually start with 2 homing missle in a full jump and 1 one more missle as I land, but sometimes I just start by charging my charge shot.

Entirely depends on the opponent. Against a character who's a good camper; double super missile is the best way to start a match. Against an agressive player; one homing missile and than begin to charge a beam. Against someone with a reflector; a full hopped rising homing missile, into a z-air.

what are you talking about... @.@ your enemy isn't going to have time to spotdodge and then charge a falcon punch or charge and ike smash before you can shield...? they barely have enough time to do this if they started these things at the same time as your grab...
You're overaggagerating how punishable it is... it IS punishable, but not nearly by that much..
grabs if used in tandom with jab grabs can usually pull off 13% damage... a little less than a screw attack...
and if used in the right situations the rewards should definitely outway the costs.... more so if you're a spammy samus because any fthrow in a larger level will give you the spacing you need for at least 10% more damage in zairs and spam...

I guess my answers toward this are a little off, because i do face people that can punish VERY harshly for a missed grab. As ive said, against a person who lacks knowledge in the matchup, it is probably very useful.

lol @ feeling like i'm playing melee. same style of covering several areas at once with the different speeds of her projectiles and using her over powering speed and range, plus the broken up+b, to own. samus is too good, thats why i can never switch mains. she is just too good

I think you still have your melee disk in, in no way-shape or form is she 'too good' in this game. And over powering speed? lmao. Samus4toptier?

In response to the grab/pivot grab issue:



I actually find that friends are the ones that know the matchup avoid grabs better, once they realise how easy it is to do.

The basic idea behind using the pivot grab is to always assume your opponent is going to jump. Only when they stop doing that would you grab.

Yup, those who shorthop samus' grab WILL punish Samus.....badly.

Ill see how useful it is vs those who dont jump though.

 

[tha_carter]

I updated the original post with some of the more valuable information FYI

 

[0RLY]

Okay, almost everyone knows that Samus is a projectile user, so they will usually dash in to prevent being hit by too much spam. I start the game by charging up my beam by 1 level, then retreating to the ledge. I use some understage zairs, and ledge hop SM/charge shots. My first combo is usually a ledge hop uair/fair to some other fancy mumbo jumbo.

 

[Throwback]

My latest improvement has come from spacing. That is, do your utmost to stay out of grab range (ie short range). Set up half-length zairs into d-tilt range, dash away from people who like to short-hop air-dodge or drop full-hopped ff dairs onto you etc. Counter-offense is the other option - upB for full-hoppers, uair, nair etc.

I perform much better when I play to always stay out of grab range, since samus' terrible grab speed puts you in trouble vs every character except yoshi, zss and samus (I think).

It's not possible to stay out of close range all the time, I just do my best.

 

[n00b]

I don't have time to read everything, and this is all based on my current playstyle, but..
I do not in any way think the pivot grab is useless. The pivot grab is an awesome tool if combined with good spacing and reaction time. It helps after retreating a whiffed aerial or if your opponent tries to punish something and fails.. It gets Samus out of close range. I use it a lot. :\

As for pivot dsmash, I do this.. because you get a long slide with the dsmash, and it's a good alternative to dash attack because it's harder to shield grab it. Dsmash obviously should never be used for a kill, and because it can't KO anyway, spam it for damage + breathing room. Samus needs breathing room.