Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[phi1ny3]

Yep, very underrated (I played Filip in friendlies at Genesis 2 and got him to 80% w/ it, he was telling me how Cross has been applying chain camping more too). I really want to know how to get it to cancel tornado though, that match Edu had up was really cool how he used it, and I can't seem to ever stop tornado w/ it.

 

[Zankoku]

It can only cancel tornado if the tornado is on the ground. Otherwise, most of the time it stabs right through provided you didn't get hit by the tornado first.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just wondering, does shorthopping it give it different properties from just using it on the ground?

Also how useful against Falco would it be? I suck so hard in that MU.

 

[Zankoku]

It depends on where you are when the chain comes out.
If you were on the ground, the chain hits for 2-3% per hit 5% electric tip, hits every 2 frames and has 3 frames of hitstun on non-tipped hits (yes, it can combo into itself, but good luck being consistent enough to pull this off).
If you were in the air, the chain hits for 5% everywhere, hits less often (not sure how little) and easily has enough hitstun to combo into itself (this makes it impossible for people to actually jump into you, as the chain proceeds to then push them away in forced hitstun).
If you landed on this exact frame, you get a chain jacket.

 

[John12346]

Doesn't Chain Jacket also freeze the game if it's the first thing you do in the match?

 

[Zankoku]

No, it freezes the game if it's the first Chain you do in a match. Doesn't matter how many attacks you've done beforehand.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Is chain jacketing ever really useful? I'm kinda curious now as to how it could be used.

Actually why not we just have a thread to discuss the chain, like that gimping thread?

 

[phi1ny3]

Just wondering, does shorthopping it give it different properties from just using it on the ground?

Also how useful against Falco would it be? I suck so hard in that MU.

From what I've experienced, it works decently in the MU, but you have to realize that all he has to do is laser you once and it'll go right through and hit you out of the chain, not to mention that because using chain properly means incorporating C-stick into it, you will probably do a smash when you get hit, so it's usually better to use it as a landing trap (which Falco's fall speed helps if you use the upward c-stick inputs for chain), or for occasional edgeguard/phantasm stopper.

Imo the ones you definitely want to use this against least (or until you have a better grasp on the inputs) is anyone w/ a fast nair, or a quick high range punisher (marth/snake usually). Works pretty well even on those chars too though if you use it right.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

the only places i can see chain useful in the Falco MU are places where f-tilt is just as viable, and more useful imo. I'd rather do 50% from f-tilts than 50% from chain. Decayed f-tilt makes killing really easy.

What about Falco are you having trouble with?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Mostly getting in without getting grabbed, and getting frametrapped every single time with laser -> grab, dash attack -> grab, etc.

Actually basically no matter what I do, I keep getting grabbed. I don't have this problem with any other character and it frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[Ripple]

dropping by to say that I'm a full fledge sheik main now.

judo said my sheik was "not too bad"

 

[<π]

judo that combo was CRAZY

vanish to usmash?! I don't know how no one is talking about that.

 

[Ripple]

judo that combo was CRAZY

vanish to usmash?! I don't know how no one is talking about that.

see thread title...

 

[iLight]

judo shoutouts to that last kill first game, also my sheik is too flashy to be good lol good thing i retired

also that last kill in the first third game was legit

 

[<π]

judo that combo was CRAZY

vanish to usmash?! I don't know how no one is talking conversing about that.

there fixed it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Mostly getting in without getting grabbed, and getting frametrapped every single time with laser -> grab, dash attack -> grab, etc.

Actually basically no matter what I do, I keep getting grabbed. I don't have this problem with any other character and it frustrates the hell out of me.

bait the grab if you can, find the spacing to make it tempting, but stay out of reach, it's got a lot of lag. Sheik likes lag. Or stay grounded more (can't trap your landing if you're not landing), mix in some SH ADs in a certain range if you have to jump, make sure to space that too. Also, when you're in a certain range, since you have a long reaching dash attack, you can sometimes use that as a mixup/interrupter when a falco is SH double lasering and dive right under (and it's just out of the range they'll feel tempted to phantasm in sometimes) and he has to start guessing and throwing in more jab/ftilt to keep you out, that's when you can make it easier to approach (or at least less lasers). Remember that if he tries AA -> grab, you can jab back, make him resort to just using the ending jab loop instead of getting the CG. People forget how much of a lack of frame advantage it gives him.

@Tutu, very true, however I do like it v. phantasm better, mainly because I suck at stopping it w/ anything but aerials But yes, getting a guaranteed setup for usmash >>>>> just same amount of damage.

 

[sheikamaru]

so... about that up b to up smash.... is... that a true combo?

 

[Ussi]

No cause Logic did an upair before getting hit by usmash

Oh but its still fun to watch o.o just popped in cause i just watched how epic it was.

 

[sheikamaru]

yea it was pretty epic. just watched it like 3 times.. if anything up b to down smash, given they do an air dodge... i still say he was done for. regardless if he hit up air b4 for after the pause.

 

[Ussi]

Downsmash wouldn't have hit given how high up Olimar was.. at best you'd get a weak hit with dsmash

 

[Supreme Dirt]

UAir came out before the pause... That USmash was very obviously hitting during the pause. And since you can't UAir while in hitlag...

 

[<π]

you can't air dodge that soon out of hit stun right? attacks are the first thing you can do.

 

[Zankoku]

Nah, you can air-dodge twice as quickly as you can do an aerial, but air-dodges typically last longer than aerials, which is why you usually see aerial into B move for momentum breaking, rather than air-dodges.

 

[phi1ny3]

Plus aerials allow you to fast fall more easily, which although isn't always a good idea for momentum canceling, helps a bit.

Oh yeah, and I think jumps come out quicker than aerials too as an option

Actually, iirc air dodges typically come out 10 frames earlier than aerials, but if you have aerials that are really quick, sometimes it's better to use those over AD (Lucario and Squirtle come to mind).

 

[Zankoku]

air-dodge: frame 13
aerial: frame 25
everything else: when hitstun ends

 

[<π]

I know Ike uses air dodge over aerials for horizontal stuff cuz all of his aerials are too long.

 

[clowsui]

No cause Logic did an upair before getting hit by usmash

Oh but its still fun to watch o.o just popped in cause i just watched how epic it was.

you're wrong, it's a true combo. windbox makes it inescapable

 

[Zankoku]

If Logic buffered a uair before getting hit by usmash then he could've buffered an air-dodge. I don't think it was a true combo, but when he chose to buffer uair he had committed himself to death.

 

[<π]

I've never had anyone air dodge before they hit the ground out of the vanish -> windbox thing. normally it takes forever to do anything...

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, but in this case Logic got Vanish -> windbox'd from a platform on PS2.

 

[Ripple]

I seem to remember testing things like 2 years ago and thought you couldn't air dodge out of that

 

[clowsui]

well judo got the proper vanish angle too, so i'm convinced the windbox kept logic in a frame disadvantaged state

 

[phi1ny3]

I know Ike uses air dodge over aerials for horizontal stuff cuz all of his aerials are too long.

Yep, bad startup on most, and bad endlag too.

@Ankoku: ty for the specific frames, I was looking for that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So, Vanish to up-smash is legit?

I was playing around in training mode, and it said that sweetspotted dtilt to up air at 100 % is a "consecutive hit".

I wish I had Smash Researcher tools to look into this sorts of stuff.

 

[Zankoku]

Consecutive hit counter is dumb. It counts hitstun time even when you can cancel your hitstun with air-dodge or an aerial, and trip time is counted as hitstun time as well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah ^

Exactly why I wish I had Smash Researchers tools.

They have those sorts of things, right?

 

[phi1ny3]

Frame advance is the best for testing stuff like that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I just got the code for it, but I have no idea when or how to use it. lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Set your controls so that Z is set to taunt (so it doesn't accidentally input grab partway) and d-pad for grab (so that you can accurately test grab).

Or are you talking about implimenting the hack?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

implementing it yeah.

I press z, but nothing happens.

I tried pausing it and pressing z, but that just takes snapshots.

I'm so noob. lol